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carrigansghost
07-18-2011, 08:06 PM
Okay this is going to offend some fellow members. Isn't about time MLB looks into contraction? I'm a Red Sox fan and make no excuses. I watch 90% Sox games and it amazes me that most of the fan come to the game dressed as empty seats.

It would generate a great deal of excitement to have a draft similar to the expantion draft to farm out all off the players on the teams that cannot outdraw a Texas high school football game. You can check the #'s out, but the bottom 10 teams need to go. This will really make some fans upset in storied places, but come on, let's be real here.

I feel bad for the cameramen that have been told to try not to show the empty seats, what should they show?

Arizona
Pitt
Wash
Seattle
Tor
Cleve
Balt
KC
Tb
Oak
Fla

See ya teams.

Rawn

Leon
07-19-2011, 01:17 AM
Personally, I would go one further. Get rid of the major leagues as we know it. Cap the players salaries at something that is more in line with other fairly high dollar professions....I would say about 2m a yr is enough for anyone to not be homeless. Then maybe everything else would fall in line in the way of pricing and ordinary folks could go to games again. All they need to do is watch the farm clubs and copy them. What a blast those games are...and they are affordable. My guess is that most of those players wouldn't have 2m a yr jobs if they didn't play so they would still do it. Then you could start capping other things and the owners could still make money. Last time we went to a Cowboys game the parking was $54 and we had to park literally, almost a mile away. Fortunately the tickets and parking were freebies from some good friends but I can't imagine paying several hundred dollars for my family of three to see a major league game......regards

ps....to answer the question about the cameramen....the can always find some pretty girls to aim the cameras at :)

ErikV
07-19-2011, 05:03 AM
I'd like to see baseball downsize. Is it likely, probably not.
With all the talk about expanding the playoffs, I just don't
see contraction happening. I for one think baseball isn't
doing as well as the establishment would lead us to believe.
Look at the financial woes of teams like the Dodgers, Mets
and Rangers. Just yesterday this article was in the Wall
Street Journal.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304793504576430023937755908.html

I'd also like to see the end of the All-Star Game. Fox ratings
for the ASG was even lower than last years' and was the
the worst ASG rating ever. With players not wanting to
give it their all, and now not even wanting to show up,
what's the use in having an All Star Game at all?

With the economy being what it is, and teams in financial
straights, the lack of ratings, it's a good time to downsize,
but again, I'm very doubtful it will even happen.

ErikV

Exhibitman
07-19-2011, 07:41 AM
Here's a novel idea: aim the cameras at the game. I hate watching baseball on Fox because of how piss-poor the direction is. Close-up shot of the batter, CU of the pitcher, CU of the dugout, CU of a fan, two seconds of action, repeat. You'd never know there are players in the field, defensive positions being set, etc.

As for contraction, I agree, but only if serious cost controls are put in place to make the game accessible to fans again. Tickets, parking and food costs make it a serious decision to take the family to a game, unless you want to sit on the roof (and in L.A. that means sitting in an "atmosphere" that the LAPD gang unit labels as something akin to a prison yard). Prices have gone up so far, so fast that it doesn't make sense to take in more than a few games a year.

mintacular
07-19-2011, 10:27 AM
Wrong on Pittsburgh, if they have a competitive team they draw very big crowds, many sell outs...This team has deep historical roots/very strong baseball town but the lack of the salary cap + bad management has led to nearly 20 losing seasons, naturally you are not going to sell out during those years...Baseball's biggest issue is that there is no salary cap and so team's like the Red Sox can just go out and buy themselves a pennant (A. Gonzalez). Broken system

Here's an interesting attendance 2011 stats:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/homePct

Brendan
07-19-2011, 10:58 AM
Here's a novel idea: aim the cameras at the game. I hate watching baseball on Fox because of how piss-poor the direction is. Close-up shot of the batter, CU of the pitcher, CU of the dugout, CU of a fan, two seconds of action, repeat. You'd never know there are players in the field, defensive positions being set, etc.



Best thing ever said. And you have to listen to Mr. Obvious (http://www.shutuptimmccarver.com/tim-mccarver-gems/) and Joe Buck...


Contraction...in my opinion just about the worst thing you can do for baseball.

Let's see.

Arizona - they have a pretty new stadium and are in 2nd place right now. They have a solid fan base.
Pittsburgh - They're in first place in the Central. They have pretty good attendance. Need I say more?
Washington - They have a brand new stadium. It's not like they won't spend money if you forced them to.
Seattle - This is probably one of the most outrageous ideas. Anybody who lives within Washington, Montana, Idado, Oregon, British Columbia (or Jays fans) and Alaska are Mariners fans.
Toronto - You're going to take away the only team Canada has? Isn't MLB becoming more international?
Cleveland - Nothing against getting rid of this place.
Baltimore - Baltimore has always been a good place for baseball. If the DC area has 2 baseball teams, you're getting rid of both?
Kansas City - They have an optimistic future and don't have the worst fan base.
Tampa Bay - No argument here.
Oakland - Oakland is going to have a new stadium in a few years downtown. Billy Beane is eventually going to get fired and then they will get back to winning again. They had good attendance before they removed the upper deck. They made it so you either got a terrible bleacher seat or spent a lot of money to sit downstairs. It won't be this way for long.
Florida - Well.....I wouldn't be disappointed.


And why should anybody have an issue with what players are paid? If say Albert Pujols = 25 million per year and the money the team makes off him is 40 million, (just an example, not sure about the actual numbers) why wouldn't you do it? It's a business. You didn't buy a baseball team to become a millionaire. They charge the most they can while low enough that they get it as full as possible. They want to generate the most revenue possible. If anybody has a problem with this, just don't go.

jb217676
07-19-2011, 11:04 AM
A BIG no on Toronto! After some pretty lean years, the team is headed in the right direction (I believe we have the 4th best minor league system in baseball). We'll lock-up the young, blue-chip players for 5-7 years (like Cleveland and the Twins) and have many assets left to trade. We have a bunch of pitching, and catching is also an area of strength in this organization. Here's what the Jays currently have going for them:

Already here:
Adam Lind, J.P. Arencibia, Yunel Escobar, Travis Snider, Eric Thames, Brandon Morrow, Ricky Romero

On the way:
Brett Lawrie, Kyle Drabek, Anthony Gose, Adeiny Hechavarria, Moises Sierra, Deck McGuire, Henderson Alvarez, Zach Stewart, Travis d’Arnaud, Mike McDade

Add to this mix the best player in baseball (Jose Bautista), a couple more bats and some bullpen help, we'll challenge for this division again. We just need to get these kids ready to replace the dead weight on this team (Encarnacion?). The fans show up when we're winning or a big draw is in town (well over 100,000 fans this weekend to see the Yankees). If the Blue Jays can play meaningful games in September again, this town will go crazy!

Leon
07-19-2011, 01:56 PM
And why should anybody have an issue with what players are paid? If say Albert Pujols = 25 million per year and the money the team makes off him is 40 million, (just an example, not sure about the actual numbers) why wouldn't you do it? It's a business.

Well, how about because, as Adam stated and I agree, regular folks can barely afford to go to games, that's why.

Brendan
07-19-2011, 02:02 PM
Well, how about because, as Adam stated and I agree, regular folks can barely afford to go to games, that's why.

That's terrible. I used to go to more games too. But what can be done? The owners are in it to make money and the players are in it to make money. Both groups that have a say are happy how it is.

carrigansghost
07-19-2011, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the link Patrick, it is what I based the contraction on. The stadium in Pitt is awesome, but I could put a mule in the Kentucky Derby and it would be the same. They are takers in the revenue sharing and have no desire to put a decent product on the field. How many years do the fans have to wait for a .500 season?

Arizona? Walked up on a Saturday game and got tickets in the third row for face value.

Washington? Just like the Gov. spend $$ foolishly.

Seattle? Starbucks draws a bigger crowd.

Toronto? Heard they were trying to get more people to have sex in the hotel window to attract crowds.

Cleveland? Great stadium, fan apathy.

Baltimore? Maybe an owner that has a clue.

KC? A sad story that cries small market.

TB? Nuff Said.

Oakland? Removed the upper deck? Again a case of fans not caring.

Fla? World Series and no one came. At least Houston fans turn out for a good product on the field when it's available.

carrigansghost
07-19-2011, 03:14 PM
Here's a link back Patrick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Ar eas

Guess if 22nd in the US pop reports can't support it, then it needs to go. I have to drive 3 hours to a game, let's look at all populations within 3 hours of a stadium or park.

Is it common practice to go to a game dressed as an empty seat?

Rawn

Exhibitman
07-19-2011, 04:05 PM
Well, how about because, as Adam stated and I agree, regular folks can barely afford to go to games, that's why.

+1. I did a little online research. To sit field level inside the baselines for the Dodgers buying tickets directly from the team online is $398 for a family of three, plus $15-$30 to park, plus food and drink. And that isn't even the best seating--that would be the dugout club seating, which runs hundreds more per seat. Even loge seating, which is a deck above the field, starts at $82 a seat. The worst seats in the house are twenty five bucks each [though in fairness, the gangbanger intimidation and beat-downs are free of charge in those seating locations]. it is crazy, just far too expensive for a middle class purchaser to even consider taking the family to a game.

LanceRoten
07-19-2011, 07:16 PM
Okay this is going to offend some fellow members. Isn't about time MLB looks into contraction? I'm a Red Sox fan and make no excuses. I watch 90% Sox games and it amazes me that most of the fan come to the game dressed as empty seats.

It would generate a great deal of excitement to have a draft similar to the expantion draft to farm out all off the players on the teams that cannot outdraw a Texas high school football game. You can check the #'s out, but the bottom 10 teams need to go. This will really make some fans upset in storied places, but come on, let's be real here.

I feel bad for the cameramen that have been told to try not to show the empty seats, what should they show?

Arizona
Pitt
Wash
Seattle
Tor
Cleve
Balt
KC
Tb
Oak
Fla

See ya teams.

Rawn


Pittsburgh, Cleveland, KC, Baltimore, Oakland and Florida(Miami Marlins, whatever lol) keep. New ballpark in South Florida SHOULD make a huge difference down there. Those other teams I could care less. But, the Pirates, Royals, Indians, Orioles, A's have solid roots and history. :)

sox1903wschamp
07-19-2011, 08:12 PM
Baseball's biggest issue is that there is no salary cap and so team's like the Red Sox can just go out and buy themselves a pennant (A. Gonzalez). Broken system

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FWIW, AGON was a trade and not a free agent signing which does not absolve the Sox from trying to buy a pennant. There trying to keep up with NYY. And I do think it is a broken system but retraction should be a last resort. All hell broke loose when they tried to get rid of the Twins in the not too distant past.

4815162342
07-19-2011, 08:19 PM
I've only been to a handful of MLB games in my lifetime, all of them in my adulthood, and all of them at Camden Yards (I lived in the Baltimore/DC area a few summers during college).

When my buddy and I went to a game during the National last summer, it was like night and day in comparison to 10 years ago. No Iron Man. Higher Ticket Prices. Lower Attendance.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Cubs during the National this year. I'm guessing that Wrigley Field is a little busier than Camden Yards. :)

jb217676
07-19-2011, 09:15 PM
Pittsburgh, Cleveland, KC, Baltimore, Oakland and Florida(Miami Marlins, whatever lol) keep. New ballpark in South Florida SHOULD make a huge difference down there. Those other teams I could care less. But, the Pirates, Royals, Indians, Orioles, A's have solid roots and history. :)

Blue Jays are better than all those teams. Watch out, my team is a juggernaut in the making!

pariah1107
07-20-2011, 12:45 PM
Why does everyone want to contract Seattle teams? This provincial crap must stop. There is no other rep in MLB for the entire Pacific Northwest (including Alaska an area more than 2/3 the size of the contiguous U.S.). The Mariners draw well, when they are performing well, and with a good stable of young pitchers (Hernandez, Pineda, and Fister) those days may not be far away. Just need some timber in the lineup.

The NBA stole the Sonics. The Seahawks and even Sounders regularly sell out games. This is a GREAT sports city. Contraction should be reserved for teams not supported by the public, and considering it was Washington state tax payers dollars that built Safeco Field, that is simply not the case here.

steve B
07-20-2011, 04:22 PM
Hmmm...... Better get out the nomex suit for this one....

I don't think contraction is the answer.

On one point from the original post, from another sox fan. Don't use "can't outdraw a texas HS football game" as the benchmark. Fenway is pretty small, and with Alamo stadium seating 23000 we'd only be a few bad seasons away. And for a HS championship in a pro stadium it's not looking good. One in 1977 drew just short of 50,000.


They should tryto do something about the cost of attending. The teams that don't draw well do charge much less. My brother went to a few Red sox games in KC when he was stationed nearby. $10 for pretty good seats!

What really should happen are changes in compensation, as well as in player treatment. The players union only really helps the top players, while many solid players who aren't superstars have shortened careers.
A team can't reduce a players salary by more than 20% no matter how bad they are.
The 5/10 rule makes it difficult to move some players
And having arbitration start at 3 years makes some players fairly expensive.
Brian Daubach is a prime example. 4 very good years with the red sox, but his salary went from 400,000 to 2.3 million for 2002. After 2002 he was released before the 5 years with one team could apply. He was also up for arbitration and probably a good sized raise. He signed with Chicago, for around 400,000 and was eventually released. Signed with Boston again, released, then the Mets and Cardinals, who he never played for. I believe the last 3-4 contracts were initially minor leage deals where he had to earn his way onto the big league team. I believe a lack of regular playing time hurt his performance, some guys just need to play regularly.

There's no way the CBA helped him at all.

In some ways I think the reserve clause while often unfair did keep some guys around longer than they would play today. There was more of a comittment between team an player. And the fans got some consistency.

So maybe a base minimum salary of 2 million or so, some realistic performance bonuses setup in a way that prevents a club from sitting a guy to avoid a bonus. And a tighter requirement for free agency. Maybe only available after 5 years with a proceedure to become a free agent earlier if the player feels he's being held back deliberately. And no compensation to the team for losing a free agent to push better treatment.

Yeah, still some problems, like how to handle injuries and stuff like that, but I think it would help many teams field a better team for longer.

Steve B

carrigansghost
07-20-2011, 05:30 PM
I believe Daubach was also compelled to cross the picket line due to family medical issues and was never granted inclusion into the player's union. He is still employer in baseball, but forget for which team. He is one of the players that I very much enjoyed watching.

Rawn

novakjr
07-20-2011, 08:13 PM
No contraction, just a salary cap. The majority of the small market teams that were listed have proven that they can sell seats consistently when their teams are playing consistently. The problem is that the system doesn't allow these small market teams to be consistent for any prolonged period of time. At best, these teams will be competitive for 2-3 years before they have to rebuild again, because their stars end up in the big markets, where money can just be thrown around freely... These teams never really get to profit off of their good years either, because they're either completely unexpected, or come and go so quickly that by the time the fans get on board it's over. Which leads to some hesitancy the next time the team is competitive.

Consistency, also included being able to know what players are gonna be on your team year after year. Who knows how long a guy's gonna stick around? How can you legitimately root for players that you know are gonna leave as soon as they get good? I can't blame the players or the team for that. But it's clearly evident that the system if F*ed.

carrigansghost
07-20-2011, 10:19 PM
Minn seems to have found a way to do it as have other "small market" teams even playing in the joke of a ballpark until this year.

Rawn

novakjr
07-20-2011, 10:43 PM
Minn seems to have found a way to do it as have other "small market" teams even playing in the joke of a ballpark until this year.

Rawn

It won't last much longer. Their extended streak is partially a product of the wild-card era, and some luck. Much like the Indians of the 90's. Also, playing in the AL Central helps a lot.

barrysloate
07-21-2011, 10:03 AM
The only way ticket prices would get lower is if the fans boycotted major league games, sort of, We're tired of paying these high prices and we won't be coming back. Yet fans put up with these exorbitant prices and attendence is near or at an all-time high. Why is that? I can't beieve all of the tens of millions of fans who attend Major League baseball games can really afford to do so. But as long as they keep coming, ticket prices will continue to rise.

carrigansghost
07-21-2011, 10:07 AM
From watching many games on TV, I have noticed the vast majoity of people in the stands. I believe most of these seats are corporate owned and not the average fans. The "cheap" seats are, in a lot of parks, empty.

Rawn

barrysloate
07-21-2011, 10:41 AM
I know Rawn, and you are correct. The only people buying these expensive seats are the corporate crowd. When you watch a game on TV and scan through the stands, half the people are on cellphones, and keeping one eye on the action. Maybe the middle class fan has stopped going to the ballpark. I just don't know. I know I have. I go to a Brooklyn Cyclones game at least once a year, but can't even remember the last time I saw the Mets or Yankees.

Karl Mattson
07-21-2011, 12:31 PM
There was a Sporting News articles some years back that estimated that 2/3 of all MLB ticket revenues were from corporations.

I worked for a large Minneapolis area corporation (Cargill) in the 1980s and 1990s, and they owned literally hundreds of season tickets for all of the local sports in addition to luxury boxes. I also had suppliers as far away as Texas who also owned multiple season tickets for the Minnesota teams. I had access to tickets and suites owned by Cargill, Burlington Northern, Union Pacific, General American, Prudential, General Electric, General Mills, Purina Mills, Pillsbury - too many to name.

Corporate tickets enabled me to attend the 7th games for both of the Twins' WS championships. For the 1991 final game, I was the guest of two guys from the Canadian National railroad, and they both left in the 3rd or 4th inning - they said they weren't interested in baseball, they just wanted to make sure I was situated and enjoying myself before they left.

I enjoyed the freebies at the time, but in retrospect I really dislike the whole practice, and think it's been the single biggest contributor to the high prices of tickets today. I'd like to see corporate ticket ownership disincentivized, but I'm not sure if even eliminating it as a tax deduction would solve the problem.

Orioles1954
07-21-2011, 07:55 PM
Well, how about because, as Adam stated and I agree, regular folks can barely afford to go to games, that's why.

My family of four and I can go to an Orioles game for less than $40 including parking. MLB is too costly? Really? By the way, Baltimore is a tremendous baseball town. If you can give me three good reasons why it should be contracted I am all ears.

Leon
07-21-2011, 08:55 PM
My family of four and I can go to an Orioles game for less than $40 including parking. MLB is too costly? Really? By the way, Baltimore is a tremendous baseball town. If you can give me three good reasons why it should be contracted I am all ears.

Really, $40 for a family of 4 with parking? Forty dollars won't even get you parking in some places. Actually, I was just commenting and don't care that much, in reality...I can't stand any new MLB in the least. So for me, the tickets could be free or a million dollars, I am not interested. I am glad you like the games and they are cheap. Now as far as minor league games, love them. Love baseball....just not anything about MLB. I know I am in the vast minority but that's ok.....best regards

Orioles1954
07-21-2011, 10:45 PM
Really, $40 for a family of 4 with parking? Forty dollars won't even get you parking in some places. Actually, I was just commenting and don't care that much, in reality...I can't stand any new MLB in the least. So for me, the tickets could be free or a million dollars, I am not interested. I am glad you like the games and they are cheap. Now as far as minor league games, love them. Love baseball....just not anything about MLB. I know I am in the vast minority but that's ok.....best regards I also prefer going to the Class A Frederick Keys of the Carolina League :) My family loves those games.

barrysloate
07-22-2011, 06:19 AM
I have tickets for the August 6 game between the Brooklyn Cyclones and the Staten Island Yankees, and early reports are that Johann Santana is scheduled to make his first rehab start for Brooklyn that night. I know that one little twinge in his arm would set him back, but if it should happen, now that would be cool.

jb217676
07-22-2011, 09:50 AM
Seattle should contract itself after the beating my Jays put on them this week!

pariah1107
07-26-2011, 11:10 AM
16 losses in a row! Today's starting pitchers, Sabathia v. Fister, looks like 17 and maybe more (one more versus NY then on to Tampa Bay for a three game set). This, on the ten year anniversary of their amazing 116 win regular season in 2001.

Hard to believe on July 5th, the Mariners were 43 - 43 and only 2 1/2 games out of first. But as a Mariners fan I have been through this before, it took 18 years before our first season above .500. Go Marinerds, errr Mariners.

Exhibitman
07-26-2011, 06:38 PM
My family of four and I can go to an Orioles game for less than $40 including parking. MLB is too costly? Really? By the way, Baltimore is a tremendous baseball town. If you can give me three good reasons why it should be contracted I am all ears.

Yeah, but it's Baltimore. You know the old joke about how a flight to NYC is diverted for bad weather and when the pilot announces they are going to Baltimore a drunk in the back yells "Baltimore? I'd rather crash in New York than land in Baltimore!"

But in all fairness, the ballpark in Baltimore is quite nice; best sauna I ever sat in.

You've been a great crowd, enjoy April Wine.

carrigansghost
07-26-2011, 07:56 PM
Great ballpark, try walking 5 blocks away from it. Most cops would take a pass.

Rawn