ID Help Please - Phildelphia PCs

[VintageBall]

Hi all,

I could use some ID help on these two postcards of the Philadelphia Phillies.

I am almost 100% sure I have identified a few players correctly in the two cards. I'm feeling good about the identities of Hans Lobert, Eppa Rixey, Red Dooin, Otto Knabe, Dode Paskert and Earl Moore.

I'm pretty sure the top postcard (Card 1) is c.1911 and the bottom postcard (Card 2) would have to be 1912 or 1913, if Rixey and Moore are both in it. The 1911-14 team also had some other name players during this period: Grover Cleveland Alexander, Mickey Doolan and Sherry Magee to name a few.

Any help on identification would be much appreciated!

I'm thinking these look like Spring Training shots, as they feature some players in other uniforms -- one A's player, one Washington and one minor league, among others.

I've included a smaller and larger image of each postcard, with some identifications on the larger images.

IF THESE IMAGES ARE TOO BIG, LET ME KNOW AND I WILL POST SMALLER ONES. I ALSO HAVE LARGER ONES IF THIS WILL HELP!

CARD 1:
http://www.vintageball.com/c1911_Phillies_PC266_Post2.jpg

http://www.vintageball.com/c1911_Phillies_PC600_Post2.jpg


CARD 2:
http://www.vintageball.com/c1912_Phillies_PC266_Post2.jpg

http://www.vintageball.com/c1912_Phillies_PC600_Post2B.jpg


Thanks!

Robert S

[bcbgcbrcb]

Rob:

Almost sure the top one is 1912, not so sure on the second, maybe 1913? My opinion is based on uniform styles, not player ID's.

[VintageBall]

Thanks Phil. You may be right.

However, I'm not sure if uniforms are all that helpful here. You may be spot-on, but several players are wearing the 1911 home jersey without the P. Of course, I took that from the Hall of Fame uniform site which has been wrong before: http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.org/dressed_to_the_nines/uniforms.asp?league=NL&city=Philadelphia&lowYear=1910&highYear=1913&sort=year&increment=9&=Display+uniforms

If it's Spring Training, all bets are off since so many teams re-used old uniforms, especially for prospects. I've spotted a mix of jersey and hat styles. Also, if that is Madden in the first card, he only played in 1911 with the Phillies. But he could have been there in 1912 spring training. Of course, I could be wrong about the Madden ID.

Also there is a guy wearing a Boston Doves sweater, I believe.

What made you think they were 1912 uniforms? Do you have a photo of the 1912 team that you can post? That would be great...

Speaking of which, does anybody have any Phillies team photos from the Spaldiing guide with players identified from any team c. 1911-14?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Rob:

Upon closer inspection, the first one could be 1911 or 1912 but I don't think anything else. It's odd that we don't see GCA in either one of the postcards as he was a major star of those teams.

Unfortunately, I don't have any team photos to share other than the T200 Fatima.

Can you e-mail me (please send to vguerrerobb@yahoo.com) a larger high res scan of the player that you believe to be Rixey, I can probably ID that one for you?

[bcbgcbrcb]

These links might help:

http://www.ballssticksstuff.com/2009/02/a-look-back-spring-training-in-1912.html

http://www.philadelphiaathletics.org/history/1915phillies.htm

[bcbgcbrcb]

1913 Phillies...............

[VintageBall]

Thanks for the links, Phil.

Here's a larger photo of Rixey (I'm pretty confident with this identification) and someone just pointed that one row above Rixey might be young Grover in the dark shirt...perhaps...

I'm pretty sure on Eppa, less so on Grover!

Now if you could find Dave Bancroft in this second card that would make it 1915 (and Bancroft's first year)!

http://www.vintageball.com/rixey.jpg

BTW, Phil, I scanned the bigger photos and this one of Rixey at 600 DPI and re-sized down, so you could blow this up further a bit and maintain clarity...

[VintageBall]

Just realized the second card is likely 1913 or 1914 spring training, since Earl Moore played 1912 and some 1913 games with the Phillies. Also, they are wearing dark caps which first were used in 1913 according to the HOF uniform database.

So the card likely is 1913 or Spring Training 1914

For what it's worth...

[Wite3]

First card I have seen before but cannot remember where...I can tell you that it is a mixed team made up of mostly Phillies but I am pretty sure there is an A's player reclining (pinstripe cap), a Brooklyn sweater seems to be standing in the back, and near that, a player uniform and cap i can't make out. All that being said, I think seated next to Lobert is Thomas. I think above Dooin might be Sherry Magee.I also think Fred Luderus is next to Knabe...all of these are educated guesses on my part (taken from cards, photos, the phillies encyclopedia, etc.)...check the sporting news composites from those years as well...might help...

Joshua

[VintageBall]

Josh,

Thanks for checking!

I think you may have seen another example of the top postcard in Legendary Auctions' November 2010 auction. They had one in Lot 400, which featured 3 Phillies postcards.

Here's the photo from the Legendary site:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotImages/70/113631a-copy_lg.jpeg

To me it looks like the top card that I posted in my original thread is from Spring Training. Different players wearing different uniforms from other teams may have been present either because they were training in the same place (for instance many teams trained in Hot Springs), or because a few new players joined a team and were wearing their old uniforms or sweaters.

By the way, isn't that a Boston Doves uniform not a Brooklyn Dodgers uniform?

You may be right on Luderus and Magee -- I will compare several photos to see.

Thanks again, Josh.

Robert S