T205 American Beauty Back Question

[bbeck]

Is there anything unusual about a green American Beauty back (factory 42-4th District North Carolina) on a t205 or is that just a basic American Beauty back? All other American Beauties I see on ebay have a darker back. Any input appreciated.

[Pup6913]

They are either Black or Green and both come from the same factory. Neither command a premium over each other but since this is an area I love I will tell you I am willing to pay a bit more for the greens. So far all the AB's I have found are the same back color for the player. There also seems that the AB's are the only T205 back without an "error or variation."

[bbeck]

Appreciate the input-I have a Marquard with the green back

[tedzan]

From my experience in collecting T205's, the American Beauty (AB) backs are quite tough. Surveys indicate that no more than 2% of the T205
population is found with the AB back.

That places the AB cards a little scarcer than the T205 Cycle cards (3% of pop.). But certainly not as scarce as the Broad Leaf (0.3% of pop.).


TED Z

[Zach Wheat]

I agree with the above...and would further add that it seems that Hindu backs are the rarest with Drum backs not far behind. Both seem to be more difficult to find than Broadleaf - at least in my experience. However, I am not a back collector so i end up with a lot of Piedmont & Sweet Cap backs.

MWheat

[Ease]

So far all the AB's I have found are the same back color for the player.

Good stuff. I too have yet to see the same player with both a green and black AB back. Would love to know if anyone else has.

[nebboy]

This brings up a good question. With all the great work in that past on T206 combos. Is there a survey/checklist for T205 confirmed list of player/back combination for the harder to find backs. Did Burdick or anyone ever put together research for T205s. Ive done quite a bit of searching but have not found any. Any help?

Drum
Hindu
Broad Leaf (both)
Piedmount 42
Am Beatuty (both)

[Leon]

This brings up a good question. With all the great work in that past on T206 combos. Is there a survey/checklist for T205 confirmed list of player/back combination for the harder to find backs. Did Burdick or anyone ever put together research for T205s. Ive done quite a bit of searching but have not found any. Any help?

Drum
Hindu
Broad Leaf (both)
Piedmount 42
Am Beatuty (both)

We have had this discussion several times and I still put Hindu as the rarest T205 back, then Drum. Drums will probably always have more value because of the status they have with T206. Just my opinion on that...


As for Burdick.... I can help out a little bit. I plan on doing a major, in depth article some time in the future concerning the whole ACC and cataloging of cards but for now here is a very first page of the Tobacco Cards from the 1939 "The US Card Collectors Catalog" by Burdick and the last version he did in 1967, called "The American Card Catalog"...(note no T205 (520) Hindu, ever, but a Drum did pop up :)). Hope this helps.....much appreciated.....

http://luckeycards.com/tobaccopage.jpg
http://luckeycards.com/tobacco1967page.jpg

[Wite3]

It always amazes me when I get three emails in one day about t205s and need for my "guidance" on the board...not my words!!

I will answer a few questions for you...I think Ted is using old formula for T205s that I put together a few years back and it is still pretty close to the truth.

First, American Beauty backs come with a Brownish/Blackish color and a Green color. Neither seems rarer. I have confirmed 3 more subjects with the Black back than the green back but I suspect that it is a fairly even distribution. NO players are confirmed as being featured on both color backs.

With a few Drum finds in the recent years, I do have to say that Hindu is now rarer. I have confirmed roughly that there are close to twice as many confirmed Drum subjects currently in the hobby...now the weird part...I have seen three different Hindu cards of the same player. Until very recently, I has never seen a duplicate Drum back. I have a feeling that the Hindus might have had a higher print run but less are out there currently but who really knows? Not I.

I do have a fairly extensive checklist of front/back combos and I know I have been promising collectors (Ted, Matt, Mac, Lyman, Geno, etc.) for awhile that I will publish it "soon" but just have not had the time like I used to. Although, this summer I am off of work for the first time in nearly 10 years so maybe I will get to it.

Hope this helps.

Joshua Levine

[nebboy]

Thanks for the input Leaon but the info that Joshua is putting together is the kind of info Im looking for. A extensive checklist of front/back combos for the harder to factory backs.

Ive been working on a Piedmont 42s list for close to a year and have found 37confirmed diffrent players so far. But was woundering if the information is already out there somewhere. (Am I wasting my time?)

Any help or info is welcome. John

[Leon]

Thanks for the input Leaon but the info that Joshua is putting together is the kind of info Im looking for. A extensive checklist of front/back combos for the harder to factory backs.

Ive been working on a Piedmont 42s list for close to a year and have found 37confirmed diffrent players so far. But was woundering if the information is already out there somewhere. (Am I wasting my time?)

Any help or info is welcome. John

Hi John
So the answer about Burdick doing checklists would be "no", for each series. He did the sets. Now, his close associate, Charles Bray, did do checklists. I will check those and see if he did any concerning the backs. I doubt it would be anywhere close to what could be done today in a minute fraction of the time....I would take Joshua's info over most other.....I am still wanting to see a T205 Hindu Cobb...that would be a great combination...

[Wite3]

Leon,
I can tell you now that might be a LONG wait...no Hindu backed cards seem to be found with players that appear with Hassan backs. Cobb comes with a Hassan back, therefore, I theorize that he will not be one of the subjects of the Hindu subset.

John,
I have 69 confirmed subjects with Piedmont 42 backs. If you want to compare notes, drop me an email.

Joshua

[tedzan]

Your ".....I am still wanting to see a T205 Hindu Cobb...that would be a great combination... "

...... "wanting", or "waiting" ? ?


In either event....it aint going to happen. I'm sure you know that Cobb was printed with 6 (or 7) T205 backs.
But, just like the T206 series Cobb(s), they do not exist with a HINDU back.

This phenomena falls back to my "Factory #649 theory" regarding no T205 or T206 Cobb's inserted in packs from this Rochester, NY plant.


Joshua

Have you ever seen a HASSAN (Factory #649) Cobb ?

I would bet that they are all Factory #30 HASSAN Cobb's.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

This phenomena falls back to my "Factory #649 theory" regarding no T205 or T206 Cobb's inserted in packs from this Rochester, NY plant.


Joshua

Have you ever seen a HASSAN (Factory #649) Cobb ?

I would bet that they are all Factory #30 HASSAN Cobb's.


TED Z

This conspiracy theory continues to be perpetuated which shows in the case of T206's a basic misunderstanding of how the cards were printed and distributed.

I can't speak directly to the T205 Hassan backs as I admittedly don't know a lot about them but I do know that T202's were printed with Cobb on both the center and end panels with Hassan backs and distributed out of Factory 649.

In fact Cobb was literally the poster boy for Hassan cigarettes.

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotImages/39/60198_lg.jpeg

[wonkaticket]

Tim, great point.

[tedzan]

Why are you comparing "apples with oranges" ?

I have NEVER stated that the two subsequent issues (T201's and T202's) to the T206's and T205's did not have Cobb's out
of Factory 649.
Indeed, I have a complete T201 set with both MECCA (Factory 30 & 649) Cobb's. Furthermore, I have a T202 Cobb with a
HASSAN (Factory 649) back. So, this is nothing new.

Can you please stick the the subject which pertains only to the T206's and T205's, as I have theorized......

Show us any of the four Cobb's in the T206 set with a HINDU (Factory 649) back ?

Or, show us a T205 Cobb with a HINDU or a HASSAN (Factory 649) back ? ?

I don't think you can....Tim !

It is you, who apparently has a basic misunderstanding of how certain cards were printed and distributed.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009/169.html

[tedzan]

Come on now....even you have stated your doubts regarding the authenticity of that card in a thread a few months ago.

Are you recanting you previous belief ?

The history of that Cobb card starts approx. 10 years ago when there was a rash of re-fronted T206 star cards with red HINDU
backs. Most of which were so professionally done that they were graded by both PSA and SGC.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

I have stated that I can understand why some people would question the particular card in the REA auction but the Red Cobb/Red Hindu is definitely a possible front back combination in the T206 set. I base that on factual data and sound research, not wild speculation. If you prefer to weave a tall tale of Cobb being slighted by Factory 649 then by all means don't let me get in the way of a good story, I just want those that are interested to know that it's just that...a story.

[Abravefan11]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=130340

Post # 7

"I realize the Cobb Red Hindu that was sold not to long ago had a great deal of doubt surrounding it and I won't argue one way or the other for it's being good. I will just say I believe a Cobb (Red Portrait) Red Hindu is a possible front back combination."

[wonkaticket]

Ted,

I have to ask you something and I’m not going to get into a fight with you on this as I’m done but I will still ask with all due respect.

A theory by its definition since we have very little hard facts to show why any card was not printed with a certain back or from a certain factory falls under the speculative definition of a theory. Or an unproven assumption or conjecture because there is no real smoking gun here with hard facts to back up, no true firsthand knowledge etc.

Let’s be real here it’s 100 years later. We can speculate and make educated guesses? Sure we can and some real and new evidence does come to light on occasion allowing us a brief window into our hobby’s past. But most often all we have is our educated speculations.

So why is it anytime you present any kind of theory or educated speculative guess it’s presented as fact, and all others are set and defined by you as unqualified dullards who need to do their homework?

Would it not be fair to take the stance that the evidence Tim has presented could also lead him to a different speculative theory that may not 100% match with your speculative thoughts? Does that make Tim or anyone else’s ideas less credible because they don’t agree with yours?

Fact is you have no known firsthand knowledge of any of these things you constantly speak of.

Having collected cards in the 1980’s only brings you 31 years closer to being totally removed from firsthand knowledge of how and these premiums were distributed and produced the way they were.

You have a very bad habit of stating something or insinuating/eluding something as fact or definitive but the only true constant is you really don’t know and are making nothing more than an educated guess. Many folks respect your thoughts perhaps you should do the same for others.

I will provide you with an example of this…from the recent T213 thread Leon started with his wonderful trade newsletters and checklists from the past.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=137300

In this thread you present your speculative theory on how Coupon Type 1 cards were distributed etc. But then you make the following comments.

“Do we really know if these cards were actually inserted into packs? Perhaps these cards may have been distributed like the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card......not as inserts.”

The comment above insinuates or alludes to the fact that you have firsthand knowledge that Ty Cobb branded cards were not distributed as inserts with the tobacco. The facts are that we have no idea if they were or were not distributed with the product or how they even came to be within the marketplace.

We can speculate given things we do know, but one person’s thoughts as long as presented in a reasonable fashion are as valid as anyone else’s.

Just my take, I’m sure you will disagree and you know what that’s ok.

Cheers,

John

P.S. I will leave you guys to it I have some happy hour drink special cards to price in the BST area. :)

[tedzan]

I have stated that I can understand why some people would question the particular card in the REA auction but the Red Cobb/Red Hindu is definitely a possible front back combination in the T206 set. I base that on factual data and sound research, not wild speculation. If you prefer to weave a tall tale of Cobb being slighted by Factory 649 then by all means don't let me get in the way of a good story, I just want those that are interested to know that it's just that...a story.

"Wild speculation" ! ?

Was this my wild speculation when I hypothesized that T206 BROAD LEAF 460 cards are "matched twins" with Red HINDU cards last year in this thread
that I posted ........ ?
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=130384&highlight=broad+leaf+460+red+hindu

And, that T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards are also "matched twins".

Furthermore, I hypothesized that these two groups of T206's are mutually exclusive with respect to each other.

Again, I ask you....was all this the result of my "wild speculation" ? ?


So, given these so-called "story's" of mine that have been proven to be true......since a red Cobb exists with a BROAD LEAF 460, it should have been printed
with a Red HINDU back.

But, in all these years of collecting T206's....NO one has seen a legitimate Red Cobb with a Red HINDU back. It is apparently a rule-breaker.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

It is apparently a rule-breaker.

TED Z

There are no "rule-breaker" cards in the T206 set, only bad rules.

[Leon]

But, in all these years of collecting T206's....NO one has seen a legitimate Red Cobb with a Red HINDU back. It is apparently a rule-breaker.


TED Z

First of all these threads are learning experiences for me....even if I have been told before :), I tend to forget so appreciate the information being thrown out again. Ok, so if a T205 Cobby/Drum won't exist then I will be happy with a Johnson w/Hindu. I will spare ya'll showing it again. Maybe the next thread :).

However, as someone that almost owned the red Cobby/red Hindu card I think it's real. I haven't held it in my hand but I know who consigned it to REA and respect their judgement as well as REA's judgement.....and as well as the grading company who put it in a holder, that it is in fact real. Just my thought on that....but I have no empirical evidence other than what everyone else has...To me it's real.

John, Tim, Ted- I appreciate ya'll keeping the debate civil. It seems to me anything that is not proven 100% means there is still a chance that things can be proven differently...in other words I hope everyone making theories understands they are just that (as John said in a few more words than that). regards

[Abravefan11]

Why are you comparing "apples with oranges" ?

Can you please stick the the subject which pertains only to the T206's and T205's, as I have theorized......

TED Z

The very first line of my post spoke directly to the T206 issue. I couldn't have been anymore on subject with this point. Your anti Cobb Factory 649 theory shows a misunderstanding of the printing and distribution of T206's.

Second I spoke to my lack of knowledge of T205's with regard to the Hassan back and which subjects can be found with which Factory designation.

It would serve us both well if rather than being so quick to be condescending towards me you took the time to read and understand my posts before commenting on them.

Regarding the BL460/Red Hindu and American Beauty/Uzit, it has nothing to do with this subject. Being right about one thing doesn't make you right about another nor does it give you freedom from scrutiny. Each one of your theories must stand on it's own and no matter how sound anything previous may have been this one is unfounded speculation.

However, as someone that almost owned the red Cobby/red Hindu card I think it's real. I haven't held it in my hand but I know who consigned it to REA and respect their judgement as well as REA's judgement.....and as well as the grading company who put it in a holder, that it is in fact real. Just my thought on that....but I have no empirical evidence other than what everyone else has...To me it's real.


Leon - I have said many times that I understand why people have their doubts, but the front/back combo is a good one. I have never seen this card in person so I can't say that it's no good but many knowledgeable people have seen it and said it is good. I know other doctored Red Hindu's made it past the graders so it's possible it is bad but I think the majority of detractors haven't seen the card in person either and could just as well be wrong.

[wonkaticket]

However, as someone that almost owned the red Cobby/red Hindu card I think it's real. I haven't held it in my hand but I know who consigned it to REA and respect their judgement as well as REA's judgement.....and as well as the grading company who put it in a holder, that it is in fact real. Just my thought on that....but I have no empirical evidence other than what everyone else has...To me it's real.

Leon, wouldn't be so sure on that I have knowledge that would say otherwise on this particular card.

I too am aware of the consignor of the Red Hindu and he is a good guy but he has had the unfortunate issue of buying a few bad cards. This same consignor also had the bad Drum Cobb that came from the same person who was re-backing Cobb’s the same Cobb that the Levy’s had the unfortunate issue of purchasing.

I think the combo is a real combo that can be found, however I have serious doubts of this card and will not post in depth details publicly.

I wouldn’t be tossing 30k at that card even with your wallet even if PSA says it’s real, sort of like buying any oddball from Pat Chan good or not it’s so tainted.

Cheers,

John

P.S. No problem on being civil I will continue to make an effort, with that being said I find Ted’s comments to Tim quite condescending perhaps it’s just me.

[teetwoohsix]

That was a great post Tim (as always),,and just on the topic of the Red Cobb/Red Hindu back......I can understand why people would be skeptical of the card since other "doctored' Red Hindu combo's made it past certain graders/TPG's- but I also think that since this IS a possible combo (based on other's hard work & research), and this card was auctioned by REA (Mr.Lifson has no problem rejecting cards/items he doesn't feel are legit, from what I've seen),,passed the grading process, has been viewed by veteran collectors who felt it was legit(that's based on what I've read here), and sold for large amounts of money when it has been auctioned,,,,,,,,,,I tend to want to think
it's legit.

I read the REA write-up of the Red Cobb/Red Hindu, and it was written very well, acknowledging this is THE only known card with this combo.......it did say they "heard" of another, but had never seen the other.

Now- fast forward to the recent T207 Lowdermilk with the Red Cross back. This card was unheard of until the recent find,,,and I wonder if it wasn't part of this find,and just popped up,would it too be put under the same scrutiny as the Red Cobb/Red Hindu? Keep in mind- This T207 Lowdermilk with the Red Cross back is THE ONLY KNOWN EXAMPLE in the hobby.

My point is- or my question is- does the Red Cobb/Red Hindu not have a "find" story behind it? Is that why it's hard for some to accept/believe? Was it just sitting in an old collection that someone sold/auctioned off with no "amazing find story" behind it?

Thanks for listening-

Sincerely, Clayton

*edit to add- I was writing my long winded post when you posted John- after reading your post, I realize there are stories I don't know about regarding this card.

[Leon]

Leon, wouldn't be so sure on that I have knowledge that would say otherwise on this particular card. .......I think the combo is a real combo that can be found, however I have serious doubts of this card and will not post in depth details publicly.





C'mon John, inquiring minds want to know? All you have to do is just say it's a theory.

I can't recall seeing another re-backed card (if that is what the prevailing thought might be) that has been in this nice of shape. The ones I see usually have had quite a bit of wrinkling to them. I am sure almost anything can be done with enough time and patience so I am not saying it's impossible, but I am not convinced as of right now, with the little I know of it. regards

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009/169.html

[wonkaticket]

Clayton,

In a nutshell the Cobb in question has ties to a known person who was known for re-backing Cobb’s or creating forgeries.

Just like with Chan many of these cards end up with collectors who don’t know any better or deep down inside know better but want to believe.

Understandably very few folks would want to admit their pride and joy could be a creation. With the advent of TPG once it’s in a holder it becomes with many folks a hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil situation.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/small/55.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/small/64.jpg

The fact that the card sold in REA isn’t odd and certainly does not give credibility to any item. REA has sold a fair share of items that have been in question and remain in question also many times items are won back by the forgers themselves when the jig is up or to set values to set up private sales.

Scary out there so be careful and never be afraid to question something, if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck most likely it’s too late and you’re ducked.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Leon I would be happy to share with you in private but even stated as theory (LOL or Survey) I’m not comfortable at this point mentioning in detail publicly I have my reasons when the time is right you know me not against a public smack down if you will. :)

The SGC 50 Mathewson Red Hindu was a re-back with no wrinkles FYI. Besides if I take the time to type it all out 9 times out of 10 I get told I'm a dullard who hasn't been doing this since the 80's :)

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks, I get what you're saying :D

I appreciate your response also- and look forward to the day we can all get the story behind the subject ;) :)

Sincerely, Clayton

[Leon]

Hey John
No worries at all. I certainly understand about everything you said. All we can go by is the proof we have and our hobby experiences, to put it simply. I respect your experiences my friend.....now about those beers at the National....

[Abravefan11]

I read the REA write-up of the Red Cobb/Red Hindu, and it was written very well, acknowledging this is THE only known card with this combo.......it did say they "heard" of another, but had never seen the other.


For years people speculated about a Tango Eggs Cobb and whether it really existed or not. Someone claimed to own one but never produced a scan or any other proof to my knowledge and this caused greater speculation. Then earlier this year one was found, graded by SGC and auctioned. Tango Cobb is real.

I believe the Red Cobb/Red Hindu is about as scarce as a Broad Leaf 460 and I hope that one day another will surface and relegate the suspect REA example to a moot point.

Several new Uzit and brown Lenox have been confirmed in just the last year. Also recently lesser tough backs like Tolstoi and Old Mill have had new confirmations of examples that are 1 of 1 on pop reports or previously unknown. We're long from done confirming probable front/back combos within the T206 set and IMO anyone bold enough to claim that a card doesn't exist in spite of the data showing it's a possible/front back combo is taking a close minded approach and ignoring important information.

[Pup6913]

How does every thread started about other cards end up with T206's?

[cfc1909]

This phenomena falls back to my "Factory #649 theory" regarding no T205 or T206 Cobb's inserted in packs from this Rochester, NY plant.




TED Z


amazing-how did you figure this out?

[tedzan]

Andrew

Since I am being accused of "de-railing" this thread....I will try to get it back on track.
My records indicate that the T205 Ty Cobb card is available with these 6 backs.........

AMERICAN BEAUTY Factory 42

HASSAN Factory 30

HONEST Long Cut

PIEDMONT Factory 25

PIEDMONT Factory 42

POLAR BEAR


Can you (or anyone here) account for any other backs that the Cobb is found with ?


TED Z

[Wite3]

Ted,
Those are the six backs that Cobb comes with and have been confirmed by my research (meaning, I own one, held one or have seen very clear scans of one).

I will tell you that a T205 Cobb will most likely never occur with a Hassan 649 back. It is in a grouping of cards that is not found with that particular back. Hassan 649 backs are also common, not like a Hindu or Broadleaf card from either T206 or T205. One certainly would have been seen by now. Is it impossible...not at all since new finds are popping up all the time but I stand by my theory and research.

Incidentally...the cards that fall into Cobb's grouping tend to be several of the cards that were replaced or switched in later print runs. T205 print runs are far more complicated than T206 print runs with certain cards being switched out, fixed, eliminated and added.

Joshua

[asoriano]

If we are counting blank backs, Cobb also exists with that particular reverse.

[Abravefan11]

I will tell you that a T205 Cobb will most likely never occur with a Hassan 649 back. It is in a grouping of cards that is not found with that particular back.

Joshua

Joshua - Approximately how many cards are in the group that was not printed with Hassan 649 backs? And how many were printed with this back? Thanks.

[tedzan]

Joshua

Thanks for the confirmation of the 6 back versions of the T205 Cobb. HASSAN Factory #649 cards are common
enough that a Cobb would have surfaced by now....had it been printed.

I put this set together in the early 1990's, and paid close attention to the Cobb's. Nothing beats the empirically
gained knowledge gleaned from years of collecting these cards.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Leon]

Joshua
Nothing beats the empirically
gained knowledge gleaned from years of collecting these cards.

Best regards,

TED Z

Except empirically gained knowledge gleaned from years of collecting these cards by hundreds/thousands of collectors uniting for the benefit of the whole community.

[tedzan]

DITTO....kiddo


In the process of completing a 211-card set (including Hoblitzell -- No Stats), I interfaced with at least 40 other collectors buying, trading,
and sharing info on T205's.


TED Z

[bbeck]

Joshua

Thanks for the confirmation of the 6 back versions of the T205 Cobb. HASSAN Factory #649 cards are common
enough that a Cobb would have surfaced by now....had it been printed.

I put this set together in the early 1990's, and paid close attention to the Cobb's. Nothing beats the empirically
gained knowledge gleaned from years of collecting these cards.

Best regards,

TED Z

Ted-I have a question since you have done extensive research on the t205 set. Who, in your opinion, is the toughest Hall of Fame member with a confirmed American Beauty back and how does Rube Marquard stack up as far as scarcity regarding the back?-thank you -Bob

[tedzan]

I don't claim to be an expert on this set. I completed it many years ago. I sold it back in 1997 to one of the guys here on Net54.
In the process, I did keep track of the T205 Ty Cobb's.

Joshua is the Net54 resident T205 expert.


TED Z

[Pup6913]

Ted-I have a question since you have done extensive research on the t205 set. Who, in your opinion, is the toughest Hall of Fame member with a confirmed American Beauty back and how does Rube Marquard stack up as far as scarcity regarding the back?-thank you -Bob

Matty by far

[Wite3]

I would have to agree with Andrew on the relative rarity of Matty with American Beauty...not because it was printed less but because of the demand.

Tim,
You question is fairly complex. There are more than one grouping of cards printed with and without Hassan 649 backs.

One grouping is the Minor League cards with come with 649 backs but not 30 backs...I would put this as the group that most likely replaced the cards like Cobb.

There is also a grouping that contains some of the variations and single prints (Kleinow, Grant, Wallace no cap, etc.)

Then there are ones that defy explanation like Matty or Olmstead which seems like they should come with the 649 back but I have not confirmed it yet.

I can tell you that as of now my research shows that I have confirmed 77 different cards that come with the Hassan 649 back.

I can also say I have seen 95 different cards that come with the Hassan 30 back.

There are 53 confirmed with both backs.

I feel that this list is still incomplete though.

I hope this helps a bit.

Joshua

[Abravefan11]

Joshua - Thank you for the great information. So based on the numbers you posted am I correct that over 50% of T205's were not printed with a Hassan 649 back that is a fairly common back? So much like the T206 Sweet Caporal 150 No.649 that is a common back only a portion of available subjects were printed for distribution out of this factory and that based on the numbers it is more likely a player was excluded than included.

[Wite3]

Tim,
Less than 50% were printed with Hassan 649 (77 out of 208 fronts)...I think that the print runs were just done with different front sheets and just changing the advertising on back, making corrections, etc. (The backs are clearly moveable typesets).

I do not think they excluded players depending on distribution. It seems to me that I recall that the distribution of T205s were not dependent on teams being close to the factories but I am not a hundred percent sure. Maybe, I need to look into this more.

Also, keep in mind the T205 set was cut short (no idea as to why, only speculation). There is plenty of evidence that another series was to be printed that might have included some of the players that most notably were not in the first print run (Wagner, Lajoie, Plank, Mack, etc.).

Joshua

[Abravefan11]

Joshua - Thanks for sharing your information. I believe the T205's like the T206's have several factors to consider when determining why certain players can be found with specific backs and careful study of the printing groups and distribution timelines provide the most plausible answers.

[nebboy]

Also, keep in mind the T205 set was cut short (no idea as to why, only speculation). There is plenty of evidence that another series was to be printed that might have included some of the players that most notably were not in the first print run (Wagner, Lajoie, Plank, Mack, etc.).

Joshua[/quote]

I would like to hear more on any evidence that another run for the T205 was as considered.

[tedzan]

Also, keep in mind the T205 set was cut short (no idea as to why, only speculation). There is plenty of evidence that another series was to be printed that might have included some of the players that most notably were not in the first print run (Wagner, Lajoie, Plank, Mack, etc.).

Joshua

Your speculation here has a high probability of being valid. American Litho. was cranking out their Gold-bordered T80's (Military series)
in the Spring of 1911. And, their T201 cards (circa..Summer of 1911). Also, I think there is at least another set of cards that escape my
mind at this moment.
Anyhow, a lot printing of premiums was going on in 1911....which may account for the T205's getting short shrift.


TED Z

[Wite3]

Best evidence for a new series I'd on the cards themselves....piedmont backs clearly say 400 designs...ads from the times also reference 400 subjects as well if I recall.

Joshua

[Abravefan11]

Best evidence for a new series (is) on the cards themselves....piedmont backs clearly say 400 designs...
Joshua

A few backs showing "400 Designs."

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WCiGfRyn2IU/Te57J29-3bI/AAAAAAAAEpM/pO__sVyerw8/s912/Recently%252520Updated52.jpg

[tedzan]

Joshua

How rare would you rank the Matty / CYCLE error card (1908 W-L 37-1 stats.) relative to the other T205 Matty's ?

Also, how rare is this Matty card with respect to other T205 rarites (e.g. Hoblitzell No-Stats., etc.) ?

Thanks,

TED Z

[Wite3]

Honestly, the Matty cycle is as rare as any common cycle...the printing error is on all Matty cycles...not some...i would place it as far more common than most of the real rare cards in the set like hobby no stats, Wallace one line, etc.

Once that was announced, I saw many Matty cycle backs come out of the woodwork. Really should not command any premium other than the normal cycle back multiplier BUT the demand will drive the price.

Joshua

[benderbroeth]

my matty is only a piedmont...boo... i love this thread btw and as a collector i am sad that there were not more t205's made..

[benderbroeth]

but my miller huggins is a a cycle back

[Pup6913]

but my miller huggins is a a cycle back

There are alot of Huggins. I own 4 of them with cycles. One in my set and 3 lower grade raw. I traded another to a buddy for his cardinals set, making 5 I have owned. Graham is another very common cycle. I think there are a few that were DP's. Same way with AB's.