Boston Doves Team Mystery Postcard

[Jaybird]

Picked up this really cool RPPC of what I believe to be the Boston Doves. I've identified some of the players on the team and noted what their ages would have been in 1908 which is when these guys were together on the Boston Doves (precursor to Boston Braves).

The weird thing is the uniforms. The block letter O's on the uniform is nothing I've seen before. Also, some of the guys have different hats. The guy I think is George Browne (maybe not) has what looks like a Sacramento Solons hat on. And the guy to the right of Dahlen has what looks like a different letter on his jersey.

I read a newspaper account that had them playing a Kentucky team (barnstorming?) in July of 1907. I dunno.

I have representative photos and have an idea on most of the other members on the team as well.

Bowerman was the guy that tipped me off on this. I show his picture from Baseball reference in this post. He last played with the Boston Doves in 1909. And Kelley was out of Boston by 1909. So, I thought this seemed like 1908.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/1908_PC_BostonDoves.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/1908_PC_BostonDovesBk.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/1908_PC_BostonDovesNames.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/Bowerman.jpg

[slidekellyslide]

You definitely have a group of Boston NL players there....just speculation, but they may be using a local team's uniforms at Spring Training because theirs hadn't arrived yet??

[Jacklitsch]

Here's my copy of your PC together with a companion piece for a team with a "G" on the uniform. Photos taken at the same time.

Hard to read but in the bottom PC the player on the far right appears to have "1915" on his sweater.

Neither of mine were postally used so I have no date identifier.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5/jacklitsch1/Postcards/PC5.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5/jacklitsch1/Postcards/PC4.jpg

[nolemmings]

it looks like Herbie Moran poking his head in the back row and maybe Beals Becker far right top. Don't know about the team logo though.

[Jaybird]

They were spring training in Augusta, Georgia that year but I looked up Augusta baseball and didn't come up with any O teams. I didn't look that hard though.

[Bicem]

great postcards! Didn't know you had those Steve, you've been holding out on me. :mad:

[Jacklitsch]

great postcards! Didn't know you had those Steve, you've been holding out on me. :mad:

:D

[nolemmings]

if it is Herbie Moran, then it is not a 1908 Spring training photo, as he joined the team late in the year (Becker too, although not as late). That would make a post-season barnstorming photo more likely, assuming it's Moran and and you've got the year right.

[Jacklitsch]

Jason asked that I post scans of the backs to my PC's. Happy to oblige:

Back of the "O" team:
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5/jacklitsch1/Postcards/PC5Back.jpg

Back of the "G" team:
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5/jacklitsch1/Postcards/PC4Back.jpg

[Jaybird]

Moran looks right but I don't think that's Becker. Looks more like this guy to me Jake Boultes. You decide Boultes or Becker.

BECKER...............PHOTO FROM PC..............BOULTES

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/Beals_Becker.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/boultes.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/Jake_Boultes.jpg
Maybe neither?

[Bicem]

oh Steve, bad news... those are fake.


but what do you want for them?

[Jaybird]

Odd, Steve. Those two were definitely taken at the same time. Same fence, same trees in the background, etc.

I just don't see how that same group of guys from the Boston team would have been together in 1908 and then reunited in 1915 (as noted on the sweater)?

I'm missing something.

Also, if it was 1915, Bowerman would be 47, Dahlen 45, etc. weird.


Just found a news article from 1911 saying that Bowerman was playing for Kansas City at 1B at the age of 48 years old. That makes the baseball reference age off by 5 years. They say he was born in 1968 but the article would make him born in 1863.

[bmarlowe1]

I don't know what to make of that photo, but that is definitely Bowerman in the front row . I don't see Becker in that photo, nor Dahlen. Ed Killian is front row left:

[bmarlowe1]

Back row 4th from left is George Mullin.

[Hankphenom]

Maybe a college team, with the sweater showing freshman numerals 1910, vs. the Doves in spring training. But what's with the O's? Could those by D's?

[Jaybird]

Nice calls Mark. I agree on both of those faces. I'll pull out the examples that made me think the guy I note is Dahlen.

[Jaybird]

Dahlen, I'm rethinking Dahlen as well. Thanks for the second guess. However I have attached a cabinet photo which was sold in last Hunt auction as 1908 Boston Doves. Look at the guy at bottom right and compare him to the guy I called Dahlen.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/1908BostonDovesHunt.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/HuntDahlen.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/Dahlen.jpg


But now I'm rethinking the whole thing. 1910-15 barnstorming team made up of players from a bunch of different teams?

[Jacklitsch]

Sure wish I could give a better closeup on that "G" sweater but in looking through my stuff it appears I have sold both PC's sometime in the past few years.

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Jaybird]

Nebraska - WESTERN LEAGUE.

These guys could be Omaha which was a team in the Western League. Though I can't find a roster which includes Bowerman, he did play for Kansas City in 1911 and appears to have been working the minor leagues.

In Steve's bottom postcard, the guy in the upper right has his jersey partly covered but doesn't it look like this logo?

http://www.nebaseballhistory.com/gi1015.html

From 1910 through 1913, the Grand Island team was a second division squad. In 1914, the team won the Nebraska State League with a 66-46 record. They were 16-16 in 1915 when the league fell apart.

So maybe this is 1916? Year after they disbanded? Or Galveston from the Texas League? Anyway. Maybe too many questions.

[jcmtiger]

Posting this photo on old messages. Received an email from jaybird about this pc. Looks like the same type of uniforms. Cobb is in the middle with Detroit uniform. In my postcard you can see YPSI on scoreboard in the back. That would be Ypsilanti Michigan. That's my guess though. Not sure if some of the same players are in both postcards. I will leave that to experts on the board.

Sorry the scan is not better.

Joe

[Jaybird]

Many of the players are the same as my PC along with the manager in mine matching up with the mustached guy in this one. When I get to my computer I'll post them both side to side.

[Jaybird]

Thanks for posting your card.

FYI- Frank Bowerman is the tall grey haired guy standing next to Cobb. Ed Killian is kneeling in front of them.

Can you send a scan to me at jasonleemiller(AT)ca(DOT)rr(DOT)com and I'll annotate the players that are the same on both teams. Maybe a slightly less blurry one, if possible? As high res as you can. I counted 5 or 6 similar faces.

[Abravefan11]

Joe - I'm fairly certain it's the Otsego team. I have more information if you're interested.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SDYbFJ9n0wk/ThUihf9aLzI/AAAAAAAAFEk/tulrkIAA2w4/s487/%25255BNo%252520Headline%25255D%252520-%252520Google%252520Chrome%252520752011%2525204120 9%252520PM.jpg

[Bicem]

very cool Tim, thanks for posting!

[Jaybird]

That's great, Tim. I've been lazily searching for other information on the team since I got the card.

See here the two postcards and the players I think correlate between them and the ones that have been ID'd so far. I don't see Mullin on Joe's card. For ease of reference (if there is such a thing), I put Joe's in Black and mine in Blue.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/Postcards/OTeamWCobbAnnot.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/Postcards/OtsegoMIAnnot.jpg

BLACK B = BLUE M
BLACK E = BLUE O = Bowerman
BLACK J = BLUE B
BLACK L = BLUE A
BLACK N = BLUE I
BLACK O = BLUE J = Killian
BLACK P = BLUE L
BLACK R = BLUE N
BLUE D = Mullin

Some players I noticed in a quick glance:
BLACK K = Mike Donlin
BLACK G = Ted Goulait http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/Postcards/Goulait.jpg

[Abravefan11]

In 1912 at the conclusion of a small Michigan league a millionaire named Tom Stevens who owned the Otsego team decided to put on a series of 3 exhibition games to be played starting the last week of September into the first two weeks of October. For this exhibition he brought in several major league players and paid them well to play with the Otsego squad including Killian, Mullin and Bowerman. Bowerman had recently returned to Michigan after he left his job as manager in the Canadian minor leagues. The other teams involved brought in major league players as well including Donnie Bush, Davy Jones and Jean Dubuc.

The 1912 series was a big success and in 1913 it was repeated with several of the teams employing major league players for one or more games. Again Killian, Mullin and Bowerman played for Otsego. Walter Johnson was reported to have been offered $1,500 to pitch the final game but he did not play.

[jcmtiger]

Tim, good job. I think I remember that info on Otsego before but had forgotten about it. I also did not know about all the Pro players, just excited to see Cobb in the pc. There also was a post awhile back where someone had the same photo as mine, not on a postcard, but a large photo. I think the guy wanted $1000.00 for the photo, but I passed.

Joe

[Abravefan11]

Thanks Joe - I believe there were more games played in 1913 than in 1912, how many I would have to go back and check. The final game to end the exhibitions was between Otsego and Grayling with an estimated 7,000 people there to watch the game.

[jcmtiger]

Thanks Jason, Tim and anyone else who contributed to information on the postcards. I have copied all the information and will store it with the postcard with Cobb.

Joe

[Jaybird]

I just recently came across this postcard and thought it belonged in this thread. Grayling played against Otsego in these games and we had a Grayling card (second one below) pictured. I just found this Grayling team postcard (top one) which seems like it might have been an earlier year before the outfield fence was filled in or perhaps a different ballpark. Note the white sweater on the left side matching the one a player is wearing in the other. Also the manager is clearly the same guy. I haven't looked at it long enough to match up any of the other players.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/Postcards/Grayling_zpsbfd8292f.jpg
http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/Postcards/GI_zps535b1f1d.jpg

[deadballfreaK]

Great thread and great postcards! Baseball must have been a lot more fun back then.

[buckyball1]

Far from my collecting interests and i bring no help/expertise, but i truly enjoy threads like this--thanks to all

Jim