Is the 1914 Fatima T222 set impossible to complete?

[Mrvintage]

I am looking ahead to my next set after I hopefully finish my George C Miller set this year and I am interested in the T222 1914 fatima set. After looking at the psa population report I started to wonder if this set is even possible to complete? There are several cards in the set that have had only 1 card graded. Does anyone have any info on how difficult this set really is? Thanks

[JamesGallo]

I think if you just look at one population report that really doesn' t give you the whole picture. I believe there are a few board members with either complete or near complete sets.

I have a few of the short prints but it is not a common set. The rarer cards aren't really the few HOF and the fact of the matter is there are not a lot of HOF so you have to be willing to spend some money on the short print commons.

James G

[FrankWakefield]

If a fellow were to get Austin, Henry, Johnson, and Lelivelt, then he could make a good stab at completing them. Get a Henry card before you get to thinking you're going to complete these.

[rhettyeakley]

Impossible...no. Extremely difficult and will take many years...yes, so if you decide to do it, have some patience).

There are many SP's in the set (generally if they have a tiny double digit # on front below the name then they are difficult). The only HOFer in among the rarities (unfortunately) is the Walter Johnson so that card is going to be a MAJOR stumbling block for anyone going after the set. Generally the first 30-35 cards from the set of 52 will be somewhat available if one has some patience (and isn't too picky about condition b/c these are easily broken cards) but getting those last 15-20 cards for the set will be REALLY difficult unless you happen upon a partial set or get really lucky!

-Rhett

[Mrvintage]

Thanks for the info guys. Just curious about how you would rank these sets in order of difficulty(simply finding the cards regardless of price) T222 1914 fatima, 1914 cracker jack, 1932 U.S Caramel, 1922 E121 American Caramel.

[rhettyeakley]

assuming the U.S.Caramel is w/o Lindstrom I would rank them...

Easiest to Hardest
-1932 U.S.Caramel (mainly because it is a smaller set, but it may in fact be tougher than 1914 CJ)
-1914 Cracker Jack
-1922 E121 Series of 120 (a handful of tough cards, but way easier than Series of 80)
-1914 T222
-1921 E121 Series of 80 (WAY harder than anyone thinks, unless they have tried to complete it. I have never had confirmation of a truly complete set even being out there)

[ls7plus]

I had to choose between a 1914 Fatima Walter Johnson, which is a short print, and the 1923 Lections Babe Ruth in a Mastronet auction several years ago, and went with the Ruth, being unable to afford both at one time. Have been looking for a Johnson ever since, without success. I have the Alexander from the set and was lucky to buy that one from Larry Fritsch in the late '90's. I would say the set can be completed, but will require a great deal of both patience and dilligence (read YEARS!) looking for the short prints. Also, as one board member has previously noted, competition for the Alexander is rather fierce when one comes up for auction. I personally believe the Johnson to be quite rare, as the PSA pop has been just four for some time now, as far as I know. The one I missed at auction was rather low grade, I think, yet went for about $4400, if memory serves correctly.

Hope this is of some help, and best wishes on your collecting endeavors!

Larry

[bcornell]

You can complete the T222 set, but it's a challenge. I have a full set (link (http://t207.com/t222gallery.shtml)) and I know of 2 others. It took me about 5 years, most of that time with little competition. Some cards (the ones Frank cited) you should grab when you see them, because they rarely appear.

Most of the cards in holders are SGC, not PSA. By the way, that complete set in PSA holders is the same one from the Copeland Collection (lot 213 in that auction).

Good luck.


Bill

[kcohen]

I personally know of one full set (2 now with Bill Cornell) and the last card this person got was the Henry. Extremely tough to find I believe.

[tbob]

Very hard to complete but not as impossible as some other sets like the 1911 Zeenuts. It seems it is always a matter of timing with these sets. I know it took me a long time to complete the 150 series set of 1910 Obaks because others were competing but now it seems like there isn't as much competition although the cards appear infrequently.
Timing, timing, timing.

[uffda51]

Very nice, Bill! And a nice web page to display them.

[Michael Peich]

It is a very difficult set to complete for all the reasons folks have stated, but it is also a satisfying set. I think I am the person Ken is referring to as needing only the Henry to complete my set. That card came to me as a result of a chance encounter with another collector (and NET54 Board member) standing next to me in Ken's booth a few years ago. So, yes, Henry is the stopper that keeps many people from completing the set. (By the way, I would add Lee Magee, another difficult, but not impossible card, to Frank's list of scarce 222s.)

I don't know that I would limit myself to not starting the set unless I had a Henry card in hand. I think it is a fun set to collect because of the quality of the photos. And now that prices for the cards have settled down a bit, the set can be put together with comparative ease. I am helping a friend of mine do that. Besides, what's the fun in collecting a set if you don't have to spend time looking for the elusive card or two or three that you need to complete it? Bob is finished with his Obak 150 subject backs, but I need six more cards to finish mine, and I enjoy the challenge of finding them.

Another issue regarding T222s is their fragility. Because they were printed on thin photographic stock, it is difficult to find them in Vg or above condition. So, if you are a condition freak, you could become frustrated. My Henry card is trimmed, and one of the most condition challenged cards in my set, but I was not going to pass up the chance to acquire him because I knew it would grade AUTH.

Finally, one of the most definitive sources of information on T222s is on Bill Cornell's website, http://.t207.com/t222.shtml . Bill has done exhaustive research to fill in the complete story on the issue, and all of it is presented in informative, readable prose.

Here's my Henry. So start the set--you'll enjoy yourself.

Cheers, Mike

[ls7plus]

I agree with Mike completely. With a really tough card, don't pass it up because its not in the best of condition--Grab it, as it might be years before you see it again. Great acquistion, Mike!

Larry

[FrankWakefield]

Michael P, that is one fine card.

My point wasn't to not start collecting these great cards unless you get Henry. Just don't get confident that you will complete them until you have Henry in hand. Once you have him, then I think it becomes possible.

[Mrvintage]

How much does a john henry usually go for?

[bcornell]

How much does a john henry usually go for?

There are only 5 that I know of, so the prices have varied. $1K might be a benchmark.

Henry is very tough, but I wouldn't necessarily single him out. I think that any of the cards with a "13" or higher number in the lower left corner are equally scarce. For example, I've never seen a Schulte that wasn't in terrible condition. Lelivelt, L.Magee, Lobert, Austin, Morgan... those are all equally hard.

[JamesGallo]

Are these cards often trimmed. Most of the ones I got in a lot were either beat to hell or had a slight trim. Seeing that the Henry shown is trimmed, I wonder if there wasn't a press problem as my trimmed cards are short prints...

James G

[Beck6]

Long time reader, but I do not post here much. You happen to hit on a set I have started and really have enjoyed.

I always assumed trimming was common to accomodate for corners being broken off over time. The other theory I had was that people stored them in the old fatima tins and needed to shave them down a bit to fit for storage after they started to curl.

Great set and I would encourage anyone to start it. Don't let the short prints scare you away. The cards are beautiful and scans do not do them justice as they tend to enhance the creases. In hand these are some of the best looking cards that I own.

[ValKehl]

Hi Mike P.,
It was most kind of you to not out me in your post as being the dummy that traded you the Henry card that enabled you to complete your set! I guess I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time ("standing next to me in Ken's booth")! I knew Henry was a short-print, but had I known it was the toughest card in this set, I would have held out for both your first-born and second-born in our trade! I attribute my lack of T222 knowledge to one of the pitfalls of being a type collector, rather than a set collector! At least, I still have my T222 WaJo! :D

Seriously, I derive great satisfaction whenever I can help a really nice Net 54er like you with a tough card that is not very relevant to my collection. And, I shall be forever pleased with the WaJo you traded me for the Henry.
Best,
Val

[ls7plus]

You make a very good point, Val, with regard to set collectors. I collect stars and hall-of-famers, and look to these guys on this board who collect the sets that I am interested in obtaining individual players from for information, as they almost always know more about such cards than I do. Thanks especially to Exhibitman for his knowledge and contributions to my hunt for info on various exhibit cards I've been after!

Larry

[Brian Van Horn]

Definitely hard to put together and until I saw this thread, I had never seen the Henry.

Here's probably my favorite card from the set: