View Full Version : Monday My Cards Were Counterfit
WillowGrove
02-22-2011, 09:40 PM
Wanted to pass along a story and a photo. In about 1982 my dad and Iwere at an outdoor antique auction near Harrisburg Pa and he bought me two n-28's. Clarkson and Keefe. We paid about $50-60 each. I stared at them the entire drive home and everday for the next few months. Friends came over to gawk. They were even older than my torn Waddell t206!
Yesterday I picked Clarkson and Keefe up from SGC and found out they were counterfit. Actually the backs were real - the fronts were counterfit. After owning them for basically my whole life, I was absolutely shocked.
But I was very happy to know this information. And when I got home I cut one in half and decided to take a photo before cutting the other one and tossing them in the garbage.
Counterfiting back in circa 1980. Sad.
I'm not exactly sure why but I wanted to post this story on my favorite forum.
Weird feeling to take a scissor to cards much less ones that I once treasured so much.
FrankWakefield
02-22-2011, 09:45 PM
They had black lights back in 1980, that would have detected it.
Sorry about the results, but good to know.
It might be interesting to soak the card that is cut in two, to see if the fronts and backs separate...
Can you post a scan of the back?
Thanks for posting.
pclpads
02-23-2011, 02:30 AM
Damn! That really sucks to learn such bad news after possessing same for 30 years. But, painful as it surely was, kudos to you for destroying instead of releasing it to another unsuspecting collector.
Ladder7
02-23-2011, 05:34 AM
This is a sad story and one that happened to me long ago. Luck for us, it wasn't many hundreds of $$.
The same scenario is occuring far more often and at much higher costs. We were able to warn the scammed buyers and they got refunds... That is, before eBay allowed the crooks far more anonymity. eBay's execs realized they were also refunding "their own cur" and started tossing the whistle blowers. The perfect business model.
Pardon the rant.
iggyman
02-23-2011, 06:41 AM
Cards have been doctored for a long time. Here is a story about an incredible discovery way back in 1975......a T206 Wagner "Batting Pose!!!"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ESRXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jUMNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2935,7262658&dq=bob+rathgeber&hl=en
Here is the sad follow-up (for the quick cliff-notes just read the last few paragraphs in the article). On the plus side, we learned that collectors were familiar with the effects of water and dunking (and I'm not talking about Julius Erving).
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=oM1DAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pa8MAAAAIBAJ&pg=3135,2083124&dq=rathgeber+baseball+wagner&hl=en
Lovely Day...
autograf
02-23-2011, 09:46 AM
I probably still would have kept it. Would have been something my dad bought for me with great intentions. Good it won't wind up in someone elses hands as a counterfeit though.....
Ugh, sorry to hear that, Peter.
But I guess you can look on the bright side.... now you can
have a new collecting goal: find 2 nice, low-grade, authentic
N28 Clarkson & Keefe cards and add them to your collection.
TT40391
02-23-2011, 02:54 PM
I am sorry to hear that. I have been lucky about not getting any fake cards but my prewar collection is small so far.
TT
One of the best things about this Board is the acquisition of knowledge. Knowledge is crucial when buying vintage baseball cards. The many articles and pictures displayed here can easily make any collector able to spot fakes, although counterfeit or altered cards are becoming better and better through the years. The Board not only educates about cards and the history of baseball in general, but provides an invaluable tool to spot altered cards and fakes.
I'm sorry that your cards were not real but any collector here who has been reading the Board and has experience in touching and viewing cards could have spotted they weren't real in less than a second. It's a hard lesson to learn, that you have bought cards which were fake, but we have all been there.
Clutch-Hitter
02-23-2011, 05:43 PM
Sorry that happened to you Peter
Clutch-Hitter
02-23-2011, 07:33 PM
They had black lights back in 1980, that would have detected it.
Sorry about the results, but good to know.
It might be interesting to soak the card that is cut in two, to see if the fronts and backs separate...
Can you post a scan of the back?
Thanks for posting.
Frank,
A black light would compromise that card's authenticity even though the back is authentic?
Buythatcard
02-24-2011, 04:58 AM
With all the talk about grading companies making mistakes, I would have sent those 2 cards to another company for a second opinion.
Clutch-Hitter
02-24-2011, 06:00 AM
With all the talk about grading companies making mistakes, I would have sent those 2 cards to another company for a second opinion.
Very good point. I authenticated this Fro Joy Premium myself after a grading company concluded it was an altered counterfeit. It is not counterfeit.
1. Odor: smelling the card can be helpful. Mine smelled like my W517s
2. State of the card: my premium was very fragile along the right edge where the tear is. It would not survive a printer
3. Image: The image matched other exemplars, as did the reverse
4. Cardboard: this premium did not have the appearance of one of the many counterfeits we see on the market today, including the newer paper and manufactured aging.
When I initially received it, prior to sending it to the authentication company, it never occurred to me it may be counterfeit. In fact, I was positive it was not even though I never thought about it along those lines. So when they deemed it an altered counterfeit (never heard of that), I asked for assistance here.
1. Sent it to another collector who had an authentic issue and requested he photograph mine next to his (FKW's suggestion, and a good one). Thanks again to HBroll for that. He has an awesome Ruth collection.
2. black light (Frank Wakefield's suggestion)
What it boiled down to: Fro Joy is the issue and the grading company viewed the premium as they do the Fro Joy card issue.
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm25/gbmartin34/1928%20Fro-Joy%20Babe%20Ruth/1928FroJoyPremium-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm25/gbmartin34/1928%20Fro-Joy%20Babe%20Ruth/1928FroJoyPremiumR-1.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm25/gbmartin34/1928%20Fro-Joy%20Babe%20Ruth/P1010002-1.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm25/gbmartin34/1928%20Fro-Joy%20Babe%20Ruth/P1010007-1.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm25/gbmartin34/1928%20Fro-Joy%20Babe%20Ruth/IMG_0272.jpg
glynparson
02-24-2011, 09:49 AM
With all the talk about grading companies making mistakes, I would have sent those 2 cards to another company for a second opinion.
__________________
Sorry but don't waste your money sending them to another service they are clearly fake fronts.
WillowGrove
02-24-2011, 07:10 PM
They had black lights back in 1980, that would have detected it.
Sorry about the results, but good to know.
It might be interesting to soak the card that is cut in two, to see if the fronts and backs separate...
Can you post a scan of the back?
Thanks for posting.
Frank Et al. - here's the scan of the real backs of the cards. Thanks for your sympathy. I am taking this occurance the way CW mentioned - and now I have a new collecting goal. Look forward to reviewing that link from iggyman about the fake cards in 1975.
thanks
pf