View Full Version : JSA Story on Autographalert.com
4815162342
02-14-2011, 06:21 PM
From the memorabilia side:
Fascinating story today on autographalert.com today about taking items JSA had already certified as genuine autographs, replacing them with Christopher Morales certificates and then submitting them to JSA again.
The article also implies that regular clients to JSA get special treatment and the benefit of the doubt when submitting items.
They story is worth a read.
http://www.autographalert.com/news.html
With the recent controversy over a certain autographed T206 card, I thought it would be appropriate to post this on the card side as well. T206Collector, take notice! :(
ChiefBenderForever
02-14-2011, 07:15 PM
Another thing to think about as well, how easy would it be to just fake a piece that was authenticated and then resubmit the original. Another thing, just because an expert says it is authentic, it is just an opinion that they think it is real. I can only imagine how many fake items are authenticated that are not real even though an expert thought it was.
Anthony S.
02-14-2011, 07:27 PM
Wow. Brutal.
oldjudge
02-14-2011, 07:45 PM
Isn't this the second major black eye for JSA? Wasn't there something a year or two ago about their grading of show signed material?
mighty bombjack
02-14-2011, 07:48 PM
With the recent controversy over a certain autographed T206 card, I thought it would be appropriate to post this on the card side as well. T206Collector, take notice! :(
What's this controversy now? I missed it and would like any info, thanks.
EDIT-I see down the page now
AndyG09
02-14-2011, 07:53 PM
JSA was set up at a local show this past weekend. I asked the two guys about the deal with SGC and they were floored that I knew about it. I said that I thought it was common knowledge in the collecting community. They said they couldn't comment on it and it was for the lawyers to sort out. Quite arrogant the whole time. I hope they don't have any negative impact on SGC.
Best,
Andy
Article does not come as any shock. Just more of the same which plagues the hobby. Two weeks from now the rest of us will join those who already forgot the article was written.
Probably not the best news for SGC as Spence beings taking an interest in the company and taking over management duties but collectors have ignored worse.
Wonder why I have the lyrics from Won't Get Fooled Again going through my mind...:eek:
I just hope that SGCs new leadership doesn't ruin the "good will" that was built through the years. That would be a total shame....
I've got my own JSA story that isn't very positive but I'll just keep it to myself - I do think Spence is a lousy business person and much of that article doesn't come as a shock to me and it definitely doesn't surprise me.
Again, I just hope that SGC doesn't get dragged down the new ownership.
lharri3600
02-15-2011, 02:20 AM
after looking at the thread on autographs i have yet another reason to push farther away from the hobby. after yet another grading debacle with psa i decided to sell everything i own and just leave. now this autograph thing, wow! well the only thing i will say is this, (1) just too much money to be made and what was written long before any of us got here states the reason these people do what they do, "the love of money is the root of all evil."
(2) as long as people continue to send items and pay for a service (dis-service) then they will continue to do what they have doing for a long time.
my dad (a very wise man) told me years ago, "if you see something you don't like and you know it's wrong why stay involved." well i can say it has been fun over the years meeting, talking to some great people in the hobby. also, there has been some weasels too!
God bless you and God bless the hobby
lharri3600
02-15-2011, 02:27 AM
yes it is and if my memory is still working i think it was a tv station at a show having fake autogaphs of sal bando certified.
Isn't this the second major black eye for JSA? Wasn't there something a year or two ago about their grading of show signed material?
barrysloate
02-15-2011, 05:15 AM
Larry- are you really leaving the hobby for good? That is shocking- you love collecting baseball cards.
Rich Klein
02-15-2011, 05:19 AM
The person who publishes autograph alert -- google his name -- Steve Koschal.
Regards
Rich
BobbyVCP
02-15-2011, 06:01 AM
These are the same guys taking control of SGC? Bad news, really bad news.
Exhibitman
02-15-2011, 06:13 AM
Yech! Makes card grading look good...
FrankWakefield
02-15-2011, 07:08 AM
I think I've gathered in 2 things with a JSA sticker on it. One I thought was forged, one I thought was good. The stickers I considered worthless, I peeled them off and pitched them, along with the letters. I've never bought or traded for a Fro-Joy because I don't know enough about them to have enough confidence in buying one. And some folks might use that strategy when fooling with autographs. Thanks for posting this. Still, folks that have based their collection upon JSA certification won't be swayed... and this isn't a 'black eye', it's a fell knock out.
srs1a
02-15-2011, 07:13 AM
The person who publishes autograph alert -- google his name -- Steve Koschal.
Very interesting indeed.
Peter_Spaeth
02-15-2011, 09:02 AM
This quote seemed worth reproducing, from one of the websites that pops up on a google search.
"One look at his website and what he has for sale make Coaches Corner look like Sotheby's."
gnaz01
02-15-2011, 09:16 AM
The person who publishes autograph alert -- google his name -- Steve Koschal.
Regards
Rich
No offense to Steve, but his fact findings are very interesting and good reading on what many people feel are the "gods" of authenticating!! I can remember going to the Atlantic City show, meeting Mickey Mantle and talking with him, and having him sign a ball. Only to take it to the Ft. Washington show to Jimmy Spence's table for him to say it wasn't authentic!! The Mick signed it in front of me while we were talking about various restaurants we had eaten at and favorite foods!! I know it is fine, but the question that begs to be asked (albeit by me), is WHO IS JAMES SPENCE to tell me my in person sigs are not real?? I have been collecting autographs for 20+ years and (personally) I collect documents (checks, ships papers, affixed seals, etc) as they lend more legitimacy to the authenticity of the autograph.
Just my 2 cents worth ;)
D. Bergin
02-15-2011, 09:30 AM
Why is it the guys who are loudest about exposing these types of things, often end up being just as shady, if not more-so then the things they are exposing?
Is it narcissism, or a true pursuit of the greater good?
Tangled webs.........and all that. :(
T206Collector
02-15-2011, 09:32 AM
Long-Term Aspirations. If you collect cards solely based on the holder or autographs solely based on the LOA, then you will run into a ton of problems eventually. Whatever you collect, you had better be confident that when the old grading/authenticating companies eventually run their course in however many years from now, that whatever grading/authenticating company that becomes the gold standard will feel comfortable slabbing/authenticating whatever you collect.
False Positives vs. False Negatives. The biggest hit I've seen on JSA with respect to False Positives has been the Sal Bando incident. I would be quite interested to see more of these "gotcha" moments, if you can find them. If there were more, I am sure they would be well publicized. Instead, what we have here are a series of "gotcha" false negatives, based on JSA's apparent prejudice against another grader. Sort of like if SGC refused to even look at PRO crossover submissions. Now, while I can somewhat understand that philosophy, I agree that JSA should take the time to look at everything for the fee they are charging.
For whatever it's worth, most of my signed collection is in SGC/JSA holders. Virtually my entire collection has come from 3 or 4 different sources, which I trust from a provenance standpoint. The signed cards that do not come from those sources were "double authenticated" by PSA/DNA and SGC/JSA before I purchased them. If another autograph authenticator becomes the industry standard, I will endeavor to have my entire collection crossed over. This is one of the reasons I have never understood collecting PSA by the POP -- I do not believe that PSA POP will always mean what it means today.
iggyman
02-15-2011, 09:53 AM
Larry,
Come back! In light of new info...........It’s just a flesh wound!
Lovely Day...
ChiefBenderForever
02-15-2011, 10:20 AM
Larry- are you really leaving the hobby for good? That is shocking- you love collecting baseball cards.
Just when he tries to leave, some Southern Leaguers on Ebay will pull him back in !!!!!!!!!!
As far as this JSA story, it reminds me of when O.J.s manager who had stolen a bunch of his stuff and gave it to some guys to auction and then told O.J. where they were and knew he would take the bait. This guy thought Spence would take the bait and he did, does he deserve it ? Doesn't matter,he did, he let his ego give several reason why something wasn't legit when he had before said it was. All it proves is he has the power to say yes or no and a lot of it is just an educated guess, sometimes you wonder if they just flip a coin to get an answer or even look at the stuff. Also people who submit a lot of stuff probably get everything back a yes, it's just the nature of the beast. Maybe it doesn't matter at all as long as someone believes what they have is real because an expert says it is.
Ladder7
02-15-2011, 10:21 AM
These are the same guys taking control of SGC? Bad news, really bad news.
The report certainly doesn't help PSA/DNA either.
From now on, Im sending my stuff to David.
lharri3600
02-15-2011, 10:42 AM
well barry,
i do love collecting, all this stuff has caused me to rethink things. i remember the days when packs were purchased for the gum not the cards. yes we stashed the cards in a box but that old hard gum was the ticket! an old
bb king song comes to mind now,"The Thrill is gone." who knows maybe, just maybe, i'll be back. johnny may be right, a few slers may do the trick:D
love you guys and girls on 54
Larry- are you really leaving the hobby for good? That is shocking- you love collecting baseball cards.
barrysloate
02-15-2011, 11:12 AM
Well Larry, I left the hobby for the same reason...the thrill is gone for me too. But I seem to like talking about the hobby.
I'm like Barry. I don't collect anymore (at least at the moment) but like following the stuff and reading Net54.
Forgeries don't bother me (I don't collect autographs and am not talking about that), as, to me, they're generally easy to spot. It's all the alterations for higher grade that bug me-- and something i think is harder to detect.
I think it's great people collect, and they should if they want. They should just be careful about what they collect. And the amount of money they are putting into an item should be a consideration. If you're buying a 50 cent matchbook at the antique store, there's really no worry either way. If you're spending $8,000 on a piece of cardboard that's passed through various hands, then you might have some issues to ponder.
In something like game used, if you go the extra mile to make sure your stuff is genuine (provenance, MLB holograms, photo matching), your stuff will have much higher value at resale. In the long run you will be rewarded for being picky and extra careful. Game used collectors will tell you to not go just by the LOA, even if it's from a good company.
I hope I didn't come across as preachy.
lharri3600
02-15-2011, 11:56 AM
i'll do the same thing just talk about it. i'll but in here every now and then to say hey and add my $.02:D
as my friend in florida says,
"lovely day":cool:
Well Larry, I left the hobby for the same reason...the thrill is gone for me too. But I seem to like talking about the hobby.
Anthony S.
02-15-2011, 12:01 PM
Just do what alot of us do, Larry. Know that grading is a silly, inexact, subjective process that brings the illusion of order to some collectors, profit to some collectors, and an unjustified sense of smug superiority to collectors like myself who prefer to collect raw.
36GoudeyMan
02-15-2011, 12:05 PM
Is there any autograph authenticator we can trust? :confused:
gnaz01
02-15-2011, 12:10 PM
Is there any autograph authenticator we can trust? :confused:
To me that is an Oxymoron :D
chaddurbin
02-15-2011, 12:48 PM
Is there any autograph authenticator we can trust? :confused:
i'd take richard simon on the board over any authenticator out there wrt baseball stuff. from my observation he knows as much as any other guy and the integrity to back it up.
gnaz01
02-15-2011, 12:54 PM
i'd take richard simon on the board over any authenticator out there wrt baseball stuff. From my observation he knows as much as any other guy and the integrity to back it up.
absolutely!!!
shelly
02-15-2011, 12:58 PM
I saw this story a long time ago on another web site. This is very old news. Look at the dates on the coa's and rejection letters. Why is this dredged up know? Could this have anything to do with a current slander law suit. Just asking.
I'm just waiting to see if a Ruth shows up as an autograph authenticated by the "Witnessed Protection Program".
Republicaninmass
02-15-2011, 02:06 PM
"WHO IS JAMES SPENCE to tell me my in person sigs are not real??"
My wife asked him the same thing in person, you should have seen the look on his face! I have had had all my JSA's crossed over to PSa and only one was questionable fwiw
pwilk17
02-15-2011, 02:32 PM
If the new people running SGC have done unethical things in the past, should they now be allowed to have a free reign on grading cards where profits can be made? Owners, Officers and Directors of card grading companys should not be allowed to buy, sell or trade cards for themselves or anyone they know or have business dealings with. They should be 100% arms length. I think the previous owner of SGC also bought and sold cards - sure would be nice to be involved in the hobby while owning the grading company. Peter Wilk
If the new people running SGC have done unethical things in the past, should they now be allowed to have a free reign on grading cards where profits can be made? Owners, Officers and Directors of card grading companys should not be allowed to buy, sell or trade cards for themselves or anyone they know or have business dealings with. They should be 100% arms length. I think the previous owner of SGC also bought and sold cards - sure would be nice to be involved in the hobby while owning the grading company.
For the record maybe you should check your facts before you post? Who has officially said (and show me please) that new people are running SGC? They had one person leave (not voluntarily) and another new person take a different position. Also, put your full name out here or please edit your remarks. You can say what you want to otherwise, per the rules. Makes no difference to me. thanks
pwilk17
02-15-2011, 03:13 PM
Today, 07:01 AM
BobbyVCP
Bobby Binder
member Join Date: Apr 2009
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These are the same guys taking control of SGC? Bad news, really bad news.
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www.vintagecardprices.com
This previous post mentions it - am I somehow not understanding this post by a knowledgeable source? Peter Wilk
pwilk17
02-15-2011, 03:22 PM
Today, 12:01 AM
botn
Greg Schwartz
Member Join Date: Apr 2009
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Article does not come as any shock. Just more of the same which plagues the hobby. Two weeks from now the rest of us will join those who already forgot the article was written. Peter Wilk
Probably not the best news for SGC as Spence beings taking an interest in the company and taking over management duties but collectors have ignored worse.
Wonder why I have the lyrics from Won't Get Fooled Again going through my mind...
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#8 Today, 12:26 AM
Fred
Member Join Date: May 2009
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I just hope that SGCs new leadership doesn't ruin the "good will" that was built through the years. That would be a total shame....
I've got my own JSA story that isn't very positive but I'll just keep it to myself - I do think Spence is a lousy business person and much of that article doesn't come as a shock to me and it definitely doesn't surprise me.
Again, I just hope that SGC doesn't get dragged down the new ownership.
__________________
doh, doh, doh, doh....
Hopefully there will be a comment coming from SGC. I know some things about the situation but don't know what is public and what is private. As for folks in these threads being private on the board....If you read the rules you will understand that when you make comments about companies you either need to be well known by your user id (as BOTN is) or you need to have your full name out there...same rules for everyone. I would even go as far as to recommend most folks putting their full name in their sig line. That will take care of any issues pertaining to anonymity in the future. I don't care if people say what they want to, but you just have to put your name by it. regards
mark evans
02-15-2011, 07:29 PM
It now occurs to me that I may have thrown away money, not only on autographs rejected by third-party authenticators, but on those accepted as well. I'm inclined to agree with David Atkatz of the Memorabilia Forum that the autograph hobby is more appropriate for those who wish to develop their own expertise and that those of us who rely on third-party authenticators do so at our own peril.
RichardSimon
02-15-2011, 07:45 PM
Mark -
If you rely on the knowledgable honest dealers, and they are out there, and they are well known, then you don't have to rely on third party authenticators.
Virtually every good dealer that I know of, does not rely on 3rd party authentication and those that do just pass along the cost to the collector, whether or not he wants the 3rd party COA.
FrankWakefield
02-15-2011, 09:18 PM
I agree with what Richard just posted... but it works well not when a collector buys something from a reputable dealer and then stashes the item away; but rather the collector studies and learns about the item, discusses it with other collectors and dealers, and develops his own expertise about the item. A bit of that goes on here on Net54. A lot of stuff goes on here. And some of it involves the sharing of knowledge and ideas. So I think relying on reputable dealers is a good first step.
mark evans
02-15-2011, 10:54 PM
I believe you, Richard.
EBay and third-party authentication were just too convenient. Happily, there's not much money invested and even that I assume could be largely recouped given the claimed authentication.
Mark
WhenItWasAHobby
02-16-2011, 05:05 AM
I'm not a autograph collector anymore. I used to be when HOFs would appear at shows for prices ranging from free to $10 and the promotors used to defend the $10 because he had to fly the guy and his spouse in from out of town and cover their other expenses, etc.
But my whole problem with third party grading is that the graders rarely ever get put to the test. This type of evaluation should have happened the first year these authenticators were open for business.
These types of embarrassing situations have also happened in a less formal way in the card industry where collectors crack-out certain dealers graded cards hoping for a bump-up and they get rejected for evidence of trimming.
It's becoming overtly clear that rigorous self-education and the sharing of information is the most powerful weapon against fraud.