How many collections lay dormant?

[mintacular]

Is it possible that there are hundreds maybe even thousands of collections that lay "dormant" ie. older collectors that have bveen "siitting" upon nice vintage stuff but have never registered them with PSA or posted on an internet board such as this?

In other words, could there be much larger quantities of vintage cards that we do not fully realize? I'm not talking about grandma's attic of hidden baseball cards but just folks over the last 50 years that are not active now but do indeed own cards of great significance.

[chris6net]

I think you would be very surprised at the high number. I live on Long Island and have a group of collectors that we have met monthly over the past 20 plus years and even though the active participants has dropped due to a variety of reasons most of the guys don,t have their collections registered. I am talking about 15 major collections mostly 1951-1975 but a fair amount of vintage cards. CN

[ruth-gehrig]

Yeah that's an interesting thought. Who knows but I like the way you think. We will never know for sure because they are "silent collections" unless they are sold or brought to our attention.

[Big Ben]

I agree about the "dormant collections" if you are talking about cards from the 1950's through 1975. Pre World War II is a different story though. imho

[rhettyeakley]

There are quite a few more than I think any of us realize still laying around out there. Every major show has several that come in and ebay has new "collections" that come to light on a very regular basis.

A few months back I was contacted by a nice guy that had just "found" his great uncle's old baseball card collection and was able to purchase ~500 Zeenuts from 1921-28 and that was just part of the collection. There are still tons of new finds to be made out there.

[bbcard1]

The biggest problem are the undiscovered hordes of 1988 Donruss collections that have been dormant for lo these two decades. You have to find a lot of collections to find a collection.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Yes a lot of super collections out there and probably a couple T206 complete sets with the big ones as well nobody knows about. I know of one virgin collection put together through the 1960s-early 90s with all the prewar and 19th century bought in the 1970s and early 80s. He was a sort of type collector so had everything you could think of. He has atleast 30 old judge cabinets maybe more, I thought the cabinets were regular old judge until I first saw the small ones, he also found a booklet with the cabinets glued inside at a garage sale in the 1970s that has who knows who in it. I tried to go look at the collection in hopes of buying it a year ago and my old friend didn't even know where they are boxed up as he quit collecting years ago since it got to expensive and then I moved to CT. My dad went to see him last fall to see if he wanted any help in trying to find the old stuff but he said he has no interest in them or money for them so pretty much giving up. This collection could end up being tossed out depending on who does what when the collector who is ill passes away, I sure wanted to see what he had but it wasn't meant to be..........

[ctownboy]

I, too, think there are more "finds" out there than people realize. However, I see a couple of problems.

1) Unless the collection has a Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb or other well known player, a LOT of people wont realize the value of the cards and will throw them away. Or, they will just keep the well known players and ditch the rest.

I say this because I sometimes watch shows like Hoarders or Clean House and am amazed at how often the solutions to the problem is to either throw everything away, have a yard sale or donate items to a thrift or charity store.

One find that I had, 20 years ago, was of a person whose Grand Mother died and who kept everything she owned. When she died she was about 100 years old. Her first Husband was older than her and he was also a "collector".

When the Grand Children were cleaning up her place (which they said had a LOT of OLD stuff) there was an out building with a roof that had collapsed. In that building was a pile of paper items three feet high that had gotten wet and was destroyed. The Grand Son I spoke with said they had to remove the pile with shovels and nothing could be saved.

The good part, however, is that on a shelf, in a wooden box, were 1100 tobacco cards from the 1880s. I didn't have the money to buy the cards (they sold for $3,500 dollars) but I let a dealer know about them and the cards were saved. In the collection were about 100 Native American cards. There were also complete and partial sets of birds, fish, Parasol Drill, World's Smokers, World's Dudes, actresses, hold to light cards and N28's (plus some types I have probably forgotten).

The N28's only had Clarkson, Keefe and Caruthers in baseball but they had a number of boxers, wrestlers and other sports plus Wild Bill Hickok and Annie Oakley. Some of these other cards had doubles.

Other things these people found were old books, guns and tin types, one of which was of General Custer.

The point I am trying to make with this LONG story is that, luckily, the relatives of this woman had a clue about old things and saved as much of her stuff as possible. If they didn't have a clue or if a "hoarder" intervention person had showed up, I am afraid much of this stuff would have just been considered trash and thrown away.

I am sure if I didn't tell my Nephew about my cards and how much some of them were worth, he wouldn't have a clue and wouldn't know who most of the players were and what to do with them if something happens to me.

I bet there are a LOT of young people today who have no clue about antiques and when faced with teh task of cleaning out a deceased relatives house, just want to pitch stuff and be finished as quickly as possible.

2) The second problem I see is fire and disasters. I am sure there are collections truly hidden away in attics or basements but are destroyed by fire or natural disasters. With things like Hurricane Katrina, I watch television and see the destruction and wonder what was lost that nobody will ever know about.......

David

[ctownboy]

Johnny,

I would make it a point to stay in contact with that person. You never know what might happen.

It is possible they might one day decide it is time to sell and call you. Or, they might make a note or tell a a relative that if something happens to them that they have a valuable baseball collection and that you are the person to call about it.

David

[egbeachley]

Johnny, I second what David said. Heck, just offer $1,000 sight unseen and see if that lights a fire. If that sounds too risky I'll put up the cash and we can split the collection 50/50 :D

As far as the original topic, I would agree that there are many unknown collections. For my specialty, 19th century non-sports, the guides often mention cards that exist but none have been sold in the last dozen years or so. One example is the N9 Allen & Ginter Flags of Nations card of Roumania. The book American Tobacco Cards mentions 6 known but the only public example is the one I have that's not one of the 6. I just think they'll eventually end up getting sold when the collector passes on.

[steve B]

Yes, lots of stuff out there that's in unknown collections.

A bit over a year ago I picked up a few cards from a collection. The main part of the collection was modern, but with a bunch of nice stuff. Too much for me to buy, but I got a few things for helping sort the stuff and setting the owner up with an appropiate local auction.

One of the things was a tiny collection that had apparently been bought and never sorted or checked. A few E94s a few T206s mixed up in a small paper bag with a bunch of nonsports cards of varying condition. One of those was an unlisted T49.

There's lots of stuff out there, even hidden in fairly active collections.

Steve B

[deadballera]

"unknown" might be a challenging



there are collectors that choose to collect only raw material

there are owners that do not know what they have sitting in the "attic"

Myself....I have a hundreds of "RAW" cards before WWII. Tobacco's, Goudey's, Caramels, etc. I have only sent in one card to be graded that I later consigned to an auction house.

I do not get them graded because of the cost. At some point, I would love to them graded. But for now...I can feel and smell the goodness of our hobby

[photo111]

I would hope that there are people who collect that do not care about grade, "low pop" or value. They collect because they enjoy it. A part of me hopes that these collections stay hidden, in the family, as part of the family. I don't know, maybe I just wish for a time that maybe didn't exist.

M. penz

[FrankWakefield]

I'm with Michael. I enjoy collecting because of the history of the game, the players, and the cards. The value actually gets in the way. Value makes it more difficult to obtain certain cards I want, and when a card I have can be sold for a bunch of dollars then it doesn't make sense to me to have that much money tied up in that piece of cardboard.

I'm not certain the question has been addressed, or maybe it was not well phrased. I believe there are 'dormant' collections out there; ones that are in a few boxes in a dresser drawer or attic, that haven't been disturbed for 30 or 40 years.

Separate from that, I'm certain that there are old collections out there that are 'active', but are outside the sphere that some of us see... There are old collectors who don't know about or care about Net54, about eBay, about the big auctions... some of them probably don't do the internet or email. I don't doubt they still write letters and trade cards through the mail. Those collections aren't 'dormant'; they are off of the radar of many of us.

[DanP]

A couple of years ago my friends father asked me to help him sell his cards. They were in his basement for years. As first I thought it was a waste of time, but in the middle of some 1970's cards I found a 1914 Mathewson CJ. I spent a week looking through over 100,000 cards. I found some other nice cards like a Connie Mack OJ (I sold some of his cards on N54).

More than 20 years ago (before I got back into collecting) a electrician friend of mine said he opened an old chest in an attic of a house he was working at (yes, he shouldn't have) in Waterbury, CT. The lady was in her 90's. The chest was full of baseball cards. I asked him what kind of cards, he said "I don't think any of them were worth anything they were not standard size and mostly black and white). I always wondered what the cards were and what happened to them!! They weren't cards from the 50's or later because they would have recognized them.

There has to be plenty more people out there like these two!!!

Dan

[B O'Brien]

A fellow I know rebuilds houses in New Orleans and I was walking through one of places last summer. I told him to give me a call if he ever found any cards, and said that he had just tossed out a few hundred Coupons found in one his places in the Irish Channel. That one was pretty much a fluke, because that is one of the few elevated places in the city. A family member passed down two beater houses after a death and the new owner just sold them both as is. My buddy just wanted to do quick rebuilds on the places, so never even thinks about taking the time to part out the houses and see what is inside, dumpster crews can wreck a house in a matter of hours without ever taking the time to see what is there.

I sure made me sad, but I did get a nice desk out of his last place!

I would think this happens a lot around the country. I know movie poster hunters check old houses because they were used as insulation from time to time!

Hope all is well,
Bob

[triwak]

I asked him what kind of cards, he said "I don't think any of them were worth anything they were not standard size and mostly black and white).

OMG, that is SO frustrating! People have been so conditioned by Topps and other modern card companies, as to what a "baseball card" is supposed to look like. It's a constant vigil trying to educate folks about all the cool stuff that came before 1948! Keep the faith...

[barrysloate]

Maybe he had a trunkful of E107. They're black and white. ;)

[DanP]

Maybe he had a trunkful of E107. They're black and white. ;)

Ahhh... When he told me the story I didn't even know what an E107 was. I did show him some of my cards a few years ago, but he couldn't remember what the cards in the trunk looked like since it was over 15 years ago! Believe me I still think about it!

[bcbgcbrcb]

My guess on the black and white cards: American Caramel/M101-4 & 5's

[DanP]

My guess on the black and white cards: American Caramel/M101-4 & 5's


Phil, keep in mind there was a trunk full of cards! Not 100's but probably more than 10,000 all just thrown in a trunk (not stacked neatly). There were many different sizes (according to Tom). If only ......

Yes, they could have been M101-4,5's. I think he said he saw a mint Babe Ruth RC in there! Just kidding ...

I'm going to bring it up again tomorrow at lunch, maybe he remembers the house!

Dan

[rp12367]

In the late 80's I was helping my Father clean up my Grandmothers basement and under the stairs in a box long forgotten by my Dad, was his mini hoard of 1958 Topps Baseball. He had somewhere in the neighborhood of 300+ cards, some rubber banded together, a lot just lose in the box with his high school yearbook and a bunch of paper's and stuff, that he had no idea was even there, he just assumed it made it out to the curb decades ago. There were 6 Mantle All-Stars and 2 regular issue Mantles, Williams, Mays, Cepeda etc... Not exactly a collection but stuff like this does exist... By the way, he gave me a Mantle All-Star that I traded for a complete set of 1984 Topps Baseball, I know someone just shoot me....

[bh3443]

Yes, many collections I was responsible in helping build lay dormant for a decade or more just in my area.
When I opened my first store in 1981 I sold thousands of the new BB sets. Typically, the collector would then buy 1980 and descend towards completing a run of Topps sets. There are at least 2 or 3 dozen full runs of Topps and Bowman sets I was involved in making for these clients that are dormant.
The collectors with "deeper pockets" or "a more than passing interest in cards' ventured into making the Play ball, Goudey and T series would surprise you. More than 5 collectors bought Goudey runs (other sets like Diamond Stars, DeLongs we're sold, too) from me in one shot.
I still see collectors from the "old days', and many assure me they still have their cards and some have stayed with the hobby by purchasing the new sets each season.
Here in the suburbs of Boston we had so many wonderful cards produced and an abundant supply of Goudeys (even DeLongs) always existed. Not to mention, the greatest 1952 Topps Hi # find to ever surface came from this area. The only Current All-Stars I've ever seen of konstanty, Roberts & Stanky also came from this area early in the 1980's.
Since the early days of cards Boston has had some fantastic collections as well as some of the greatest cards ever made. These vintage collections may lay dormant, but believe me, they are everywhere.
Thanks to all my friends on Net 54 for keeping our hobby in such good hands.
God Bless,
Bill Hedin

[tedzan]

GOD Bless you Bill Hedin.


OK..I think the term "dormant" might not apply in this hobby's bigger picture. For, I can account, just in my small collecting sphere, that
there are approx. 50 vintage collections out there whose owners cannot tell you the difference between a "pop report" and a "pop tart".
Furthermore, they don't care, as they enjoy their cardboard "goodies" as much....if not more....than the new generation of Graded card
collectors.

I, for one, am part of this crowd. And, most of us are very active in the hobby....so, I don't think "dormant" is the right choice of words
to describe these collections.

Now, if I can account for 50 such collections, I would extrapolate that number into many 100's of such collections. And, I can tell you
that some of these collections of E-cards, T-cards, Goudey's, Play Ball's, etc. are in amazing condition (well kept in high quality mylar
sheets).

If some of these cards were to get into circulation, they would cause chaos in the "pop reports".


TED Z

[barrysloate]

They can not tell you the difference between a pop report and a pop tart.

Now that's good!:)

[E93]

They can not tell you the difference between a pop report and a pop tart.

Now that's good!:)

That cracked me up too.

What I find interesting is that Ted remembers some very high grade collections and others report rarely seeing high grade cards. I think we "see" them more often these days in part because it is the high grade examples that often get into high profile auctions and few vintage collectors miss seeing those catalogs, at least online.
JimB

[FrankWakefield]

Put that in your toaster!!!!


By the way, I broke another slab today, it was PSA and the card appeared to be inside a plastic sleeve in there. However, when I got the slab apart, the card lay atop the sleeve. Seems to me that about a bit more often than not that is the way it is. Is that just laziness, or is there a reason they don't put in inside... Oops, just heard my toaster click! Time for a Pop Tart.

[bh3443]

Hi Ted, Barry, and the rest of my buddies,
The first time I heard the term population report used in regards to cards was from Alan Hager when he was up here at one of my shows pitching his BB Card Book and launching his "6-Sport" Price Guide!
I had a nice conversation with him, and then the pitch came about per cent of cards in various conditions that survived time, abuse, etc.., the need for a book like "6-Sport" to accurately value them and the Acu-grade slabbing and preserving cards. Alan was an interesting guy.
A few months later, Dennis Purdy said the "book was pretty, but then again so aren't most whores!" in his expose on Alan Hager: Buffalo Hunter in the Wild West. Dennis was another great guy and I enjoyed his magazine a lot.
Anyway, I like my cards in ANY condition. I get as much enjoyment from a beat up Jim Tabor card as I do a PSA 7 Babe Ruth. I like what I like!

[Brian Van Horn]

Late arriver on the post (so, what else is new). I guess I qualify as a "dormant" collector because I have never had a card graded. Any card in my collection someone else sent in PSA or SGC.

[ctownboy]

I think the word "dormant" is causing some confusion.

When I think of dormant, I do NOT think of collections without graded cards. I see that as a preference of the collector. I think many collectors are active but have few, if any, graded cards. In short, I don't think a collection with ungraded cards should be considered dormant.

No, when I think of a dormant collection I think of two different things;

1) a collection that a young person put together and who then quit collecting.

For example, last Summer, I saw an ad for a yard sale that listed baseball cards for sale. I went (was five minutes late because I took a wrong turn) but the cards had already sold. The man who owned the cards was in his fifties and he said the cards were probably from around 1965. He said he collected them as a boy, stopped collecting and then just put the shoebox away in the closet.

He was selling the cards (they sold for $25 dollars and he said there was at least one Mantle and one Maris in the box) because he and his Wife were moving and he didn't want to move them again.

2) a collection that a person put together as an adult (they might have started as a child and just kept on going over the years) but stopped because of one reason or another (got married, had children, bought a house, became unemployed, saving money for children's college, saving for retirement, etc).

I think the type of collection we on this board want to find is the kind a child put together many years ago and that was either passed down through the family or left in an old house and forgotten about.

David

[vintagecpa]

I think the T206 Honus Wagner card is a pretty good representation on how many of these cards lay dormant in private collections. About 30 years ago, only about 10-15 of these cards were thought to exist. As the price continued to rise, these cards simply became too valuable for private collectors to keep them hidden away. If you compare the percentage of Wagners that surface over a certain amount of time, you can get a pretty rough estimate as to how understated the population reports could be with other sets. If the price of the Wagner would have stayed at under $10k, I would speculate we would only see about half of the Wagners graded today. Basically, as much as we hate to admit it, many pre-WWII cards simply aren't as scarce as we like to think.

[David W]

I know a pre war collector school teacher, who has collected for years. Nothing is graded, he plans someday getting them graded and consigning them as his heirs have no interest in cards. He is pretty mum about what he has, but he used to moonlight with an auctioneer who auctioned many card collections off. I know he has many Ty Cobb pre war cards. I'd say in 10-20 years they might hit the market.

I know another man who I worked for 20 years ago who was a college prof and owned a computer business on the side. He was a big collector, at one time had at least one complete 33 Goudey set (or so he said) and had sold another one 20 years prior to that for a down payment on a new house. He put ads in local papers in the 70's and 80's and went all over the midwest buying up collections. His stuff may not hit the market as his son is also a big collector, none of it is graded either.

I'm not a big collector by my 100 or so T 206's are not graded either and may never be unless I decide to sell them in 20-30 years.

[peterb69]

What I find funny is when somebody posts on ebay a PSA6 card saying it is highest graded thus they expect top dollar. I honestly believe there are a few somewhere out there that would beat the grade, they are just being held onto collectors not interested in grading or these "dormant" collectors.

If one surfaces, now that extra premium paid looks for naught.

[Touch'EmAll]

Hearing of a new find of vintage cards is cool.

Kinda why we like Antiques Roadshow, or Pawn Stars TV shows - somebody brings something in, turns out to be a surprise find! Captures our imagination.

Remember while back the Skydash find - at first not many believed the fellow. Then the story unfolded and became a huge deal. He had a Jim Thorpe, some Tin Tops, etc. Brought out the kid in all of us.

And the one-of one thing is rather neat - to own the only or highest known copy is very satisfying. Jeez, I own a good handful of vintage HOF'ers that are all more rare than the Honus Wagner T206. My family and friends always ask why is the T206 Wagner a bjillion dollars and your 1 of 3 Honus Wagner Tin Top only about $5.k ? I love my 1931 W502 Hornsby as it is only one of a few of the set ever graded, and the only Hornsby - doesn't get much more rare than that.

I was both thrilled and bummed when the Skydash collection was found - it took my one-of-one to a one-of two. Oh well, got some great pub for the copy I do own. The Colgans sport some of the best actual photos of players - almost eerie how they look just oozing vintage. Some day they may garner more respect. Just because they don't have corners doesn't mean they should be rendered secondary cards - trust me, they show the wear just like cards with corners.