A case for the timeline of the T213-1 (COUPON) set

[tedzan]

This story 1st starts by recalling the timeline for the initial press run of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards. Neither New York cards of Demmitt and O'Hara
were printed with the POLAR BEAR back, as they were traded to their respective St. Louis teams prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Demmitt and
O'Hara played in only 10 games at the start of the 1910 season with their respective St. Louis teams. In mid-May 1910, both Demmitt and O'Hara
were assigned to Montreal and Toronto (Eastern League), respectively. But quite interestingly, their St. Louis variations were printed in the initial
POLAR BEAR press run of the 350-ONLY series cards in the Summer of 1910. However, their St Louis cards were not printed with any other backs.


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/demmitt.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/aohara.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Given the 1st press run of the POLAR BEAR cards in the Summer 1910, we can now dial the clock back and determine quite closely a date for when
the T213-1 COUPON cards were printed.

The story continues....the T213-1 COUPON set comprises of subjects that are in three different series of the T206 set..........

1....Twenty subjects from the 150/350 Southern League (SL) series of 48 cards (selected players in the Southern Association). The list of these SL
players will follow in another post.

2....The choice of the 48 - Major League subjects is uncertain. They were most likely on a 48-card sheet that included the 6 super-prints. These six
cards are very unique T206's, as they were initially printed (Spring 1910) in the 350-ONLY series with most of the backs in this series. Subsequently,
American Lithographic printed these 6 cards with virtually all the backs associated with the 460-ONLY series. Each of these 6 super-prints are found
with at least 20 different backs, including the POLAR BEAR back.

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (batting-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

3....Of the other 42 Major Leaguers from the 350-ONLY series, 39 of them are POLAR BEAR "no-prints". The significance of this is important, in that it
sets a window of time for the printing of the T213-1 cards. Consider this.....with the initial press run of the POLAR BEAR cards in the Summer of 1910,
it is then my contention that these 39 subjects fell short of the POLAR BEAR press run....hence "no-prints".

The 39 cards in the T213-1 COUPON set that are POLAR BEAR "no-prints".......

Becker **
Bender
Byrne **
Campbell **
Charles **
Cree
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dubuc **
Dunn (Brooklyn) **
Fletcher
Hartsel
Hoffman (St Louis)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait) **
Huggins (hands at mouth) **
Hunter
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall **
McBride
McElveen
McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mowery **
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding
O'Hara (NY)
Paskert
Rhoades (hands/chest) **
Rossman **
Schmidt (portrait)
Starr **
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
Thomas
Wilson

Note ** ....ballplayers that retired, were traded, or reassigned (to Minor Leagues) prior to the Summer of 1910 (details will follow in a subsequent
post).

Three of the 350-ONLY series Major Leaguers (Engle, LaPorte, & Willett) were extendeded into the initial POLAR BEAR press run.

CONCLUSION

Furthermore, American Litho. ledger records inform us that the T206's with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame) and CYCLE 350 backs were printed
in June 1910. So, one might ask....what does this additional information have to do with anything ?
OK....we have learned that the similarity of T206 back designs is indicative of concurrent timelines. Note the similarity of these five designs.

.............. A ............................ B .......................... T213-1 ........................ C ............................. D
<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/at206quintuplicatedesign.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


T206's with the A-B-C-D backs [AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame), BROAD LEAF 350, CYCLE 350 and DRUM] were issued in early Summer of 1910.
By comparing the T206 surveys of its A-B-C-D brands, you will find a very close match of their subjects across all four brands. Furthermore, by
comparing the A-B-C-D subjects with the COUPON checklist, you will find a very close match. All these comparisons certainly reinforce the argu-
ment for a concurrent printing timeline for all 5 of these tobacco backs.

Considering these factors, it is fair to conclude that the 48 Major League cards of the T213-1 set were printed simultaneously with the A-B-C-D
cards in June 1910. And most likely, in a separate press run, the 20 - SL cards were also printed in this same 1910 timeframe.

Now, please do not misunderstand. The purpose of this post is strictly meant to inform. It is NOT meant to form any argument for....or against....
this COUPON set as part of the T206 set.


I would like to credit Brian Weisner, who alluded to a linkage between the POLAR BEAR "no-prints" and the COUPON-1 cards in 2007.


TED Z

[toppcat]

Excellent read Ted.

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks ! Interesting stuff, indeed.

[FrankWakefield]

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/DemmittsT206T213.jpg

First, I understand that 3rd card isn't a T213-1; it's a -2, I lack the -1.

Ray Demmitt's transaction line says that on December 16, 1909 the New York Highlanders traded him and Joe Lake to the St. Louis Browns for Lou Criger.

Now... setting aside all of that print run stuff, two things. Thing one, it seems unlikely that American Litho could have printed Demmitt with St. Louis prior to mid December 1909. Thing 2, American Litho could have printed Demmitt cards with St. Louis on there at most any reasonable time thereafter... February, maybe wait until April to see if he's up... any time. They could have even still sent out New York cards for a few months until they got the change in.

This wasn't like a newspaper, where there's some token attempt at getting something correct. These guys were just printing insert cards for a tobacco company, I don't think they were too torn up about minor mistakes or shortcomings.

[ethicsprof]

excellent illustrative and corroborative work for the case you present.

many thanks for all the efforts and for sharing them.

well done, ole friend.

best,
barry

[toppcat]

Ted/All:

The comment about printing in Feb. or April on Demmitt brings up an interesting point. Were T206 and any possible related, contemporary sets, issued continuously from late 1909 until mid 1911 or were there periods where the card inserts were of other subjects and types? I know some T206 cards were accompanied by cards from other sets in the slide and shells but I really do wonder if T206 took off the hot stove season, or at least the peak of winter each time through the cycle.

[Abravefan11]

...we have learned that the similarity of T206 back designs are indicative of concurrent timelines. This scan speak for itself.


Ted your post is full of a lot great research but with all due respect this statement is a leap of faith.

1) If the Coupon Type 1 set matched the composition of the A+B+C+D then you would have a great case for concurrent timelines. However No Prints from the A+B+C+D set are included in the Coupon Set which shows they were printed with different sheet compositions.

2) This wasn't the only time in the T206 set this back design was used as the scan below shows.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/TUlREPH4w5I/AAAAAAAADaM/33XMUkSzgL0/s800/Recently%20Updated35.jpg

[tedzan]

The Ray Demmitt (N Y American) is a strange card in several respects.

The first thing that strikes you is that his caption is lettered "American".

Even more interesting is that Demmitt was only printed with 4 backs......

El PRINCIPE de GALES
PIEDMONT 350
SWEET CAPORAL 350, factory 30
TOLSTOI

However, this card is by no means scarce, especially with its PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP backs.

Incidently, Demmitt was not printed with a COUPON-1 back.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Yes, there will alway be some "pesky" No-Prints when you compare subjects across the the tobacco brand backs. However, when comparing
T213-1 fronts with any of the A-B-C-D fronts, I count as many as 46 - Major Leaguers that are featured across the A-B-C brands....and, as
few as 25 for the DRUM brand (which is understandable, since we have yet to confirm all the cards with this rare back)..

Regarding the BROAD LEAF 460 & CYCLE 460 designs, the only difference in the artwork is the "460 Subjects". And, that's understandable since....

(1) The BL 460 cards are strictly from the 350/460 series subjects.

(2) The CY 460 cards are from the 350/460 and 460-only series subjects.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks for the nice words.

I haven't had my 2nd coffee yet this AM....but, I'm not sure I fully understand the gist of what your last post said.

Can you give an example of this ?

Thanks again,

TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

The event of Demmitt moving to Montreal doesn't preclude printing of cards with a St. Louis caption.


I think one significant aspect of the matter is the Demmitt Coupon card up there. When we look at T206 cards, we're usually looking at cards where the team in the caption matches with the team in the image. That isn't absolutely true, but generally. Sometimes they just removed and then added uniform lettering, but they tried to get it right. The two T206 Demmitt's show that, same image but the lettering on the jersey has changed to be consistent with the caption. That doesn't happen with T213's. When I was younger, nay when we all were younger (and some of you weren't even contemplated) Anheuser-Busch made Budweiser, but they also made Bush Baverian Beer, which was less expensive... they quit brewing it in 1979. I think Coupon was a second class brand. They didn't get first run cards. By the time they were getting cards some of the players had been traded, and this was reflected in the caption, if at all. Coupon cards retained the old images... Again, look at Demmitt with the last image used in T206, the St. Louis image, but with a Chicago Amer. caption.

I am somewhat in agreement with the time line. But the trade before is more significant than the trade after.


Another thought. The captions on T206's and on T213-1's are on there by way of lithography. Those blue captions on the later Coupon cards have always looked odd to me, they lack the sharpness of the previous captions. I wonder if those blue captions were done with offset printing. I envision someone filing on the stones to remove the captions, then the sheets are cranked out with lithography, then captions are added offset. I've not looked, but my belief is that T206 captions are consistently the same distance from the image frameline. I suspect that those blue T213 captions drift up and down slightly, if we were to look for it. If it does drift, that would be evident of that additional print run for captions. That all makes more sense to me that a reworking of the entire blue stones and plates just to fix a caption. And why blue? Because it was done separately.

[Abravefan11]

Frank - That's a great post and we share a lot of the same thoughts. I believe Coupon was a second class brand as well and didn't get first run cards.

There are a lot of players included in the T213-1 set that had been traded or out of baseball all together by the time the set was issued. Charlie Starr is an example as he was traded from Boston in July of 1909 to Philly and didn't play again in the majors after the 1909 season yet he is in the T206 350 series and the T213-1 set as a Boston player.

I would like a definitive time marker in the set beyond just a starting point if that is possible. It may be there and I'm just missing it, but without it we can only say they could have been printed as early as...but could have been printed anytime after.

[tedzan]

As I notated in my 1st post, here are some of the COUPON subjects whose status changed prior to the Spring of 1910

Subject.......................Status Change.....................................Printed T-brands (other than COUPON)

Becker..........traded from Boston NL to NY NL (April 1910).......................A-B-C-D

Byrne............traded from St Louis NL to Pittsburg (Aug 1909)..................none

Campbell......retired fro ML (Aug 1909)............................................. ...A-B-C

Charles........traded from St Louis NL to Cinci (Aug 1909).........................A-B-C-D

Dubuc...........re-assigned to Buffalo (Eastern Lge.) for 1910 season..........A-B-C

Joe Dunn.......retired from ML................................................ .............A-B

Huggins.........traded from Cinci to St Louis NL (Feb 1910)........................A-B-D

Marshall........retired from ML................................................ .............A-C-D

Mowrey.........traded from Cinci to St Louis NL (Aug 1909)........................A

Rhoades........retired from ML................................................ .............A-C-D

Rossman.......retired from ML................................................ ..............none

Starr..............re-assigned to Buffalo (Eastern Lge.) for 1910 season.........A-B-C-D


There may be a few more....if so, I will add them to this list.

KEY

A = American Beauty 350 (frame)
B = Broad Leaf 350
C = Cycle 350
D = Drum
ML = Major League


TED Z

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/demmitt.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/aohara.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/ac46demmittohara.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Both NY the versions and St Louis versions of the Demmitt and O'Hara cards are a strange lot, in that they were printed with very
few 350 series backs as compared to the majority population of the 350 series subjects.

Anyhow, it is quite evident in the white-bordered ATC cards (1912-1919), that images don't jive with the team changes. Your Dem-
mitt is just one of many. I can recall several T213 (-2 or -3) and T215's where this is so (Harry McIntyre immediately comes to mind
with a Brooklyn blue "B" on his uniform, although his caption is "Chicago, Nat'l" ).

American Litho. (ALC) was no longer modifying the artwork to be consistent with the team changes (as they did during 1909-1911).
Obviously, they were taking old pre-printed sheets they had in stock, and as you said, offset printed (in blue ink) the changes.

My guess is that after ATC's divestiture, ALC was not that keen on producing these cards (T213, T214, and T215) as they were dur-
ing the T206 production era.

They had other (or bigger) litho "fish to fry" :)


TED Z

[toppcat]

I haven't had my 2nd coffee yet this AM....but, I'm not sure I fully understand the gist of what your last post said.

Can you give an example of this ?


TED Z

Ted:

T206 was issued essentially from the end of summer 1909 through the late spring of 1911 and I'm just wondering if the ATC had periods where T206 were not the pack inserts but some other card was. Not sure I've seen anyone comment on that before.

I'm also curious about the T206 captions-they always seemed "machined" to me, much like the theory on the blue captions I guess, i.e. they look like they could have been added after the card images were printed. I believe the T206 theory on captions is they were part of the brown ink pass but if so, would not the blue captioned cards look strange if the brown pass was skipped in say T213-2? I guess I'm trying to reconcile the pre-printed fronts with out brown captions being used for the later sets.

I wonder if the post ATC breakup issues did not use unprinted front inventory from T206 but rather they used the elements used to create those cards instead but with the blue captions. Perhaps many of the T206 litho stones had been recycled for other uses and they just used what was still at hand for the Coupons, etc.

[tedzan]

Ted/All:

The comment about printing in Feb. or April on Demmitt brings up an interesting point. Were T206 and any possible related, contemporary sets, issued continuously from late 1909 until mid 1911 or were there periods where the card inserts were of other subjects and types? I know some T206 cards were accompanied by cards from other sets in the slide and shells but I really do wonder if T206 took off the hot stove season, or at least the peak of winter each time through the cycle.


I finally got a chance to re-read your post after shoveling snow and ice this morning. So, let's see if I can answer you. The cold outdoors with
freezing rain chunks falling on me off the tall oaks woke me up.

I know of these two sets of non-sports cards issued by American Litho (ALC) during the T206 era that may have been intermixed with T206's
at the very start. Very quickly, though, these baseball cards became very popular. Therefore, two T206's were then inserted into a pack.

(a) circa 1909....T42 Birds (OLD MILL, PIEDMONT, and SWEET CAPORAL)

(b) circa 1909....T58 Fish (PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN, and SWEET CAPORAL

Circa Spring 1911....we have ALC records that indicate in the Spring of 1911 the T80 (Military Men) Gold-Bordered cards were intermixed with
T206's with LENOX, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs. One T206 and one T80 in a cigarette pack.
By the Spring of 1911, ALC was using up what was left of their T206 stock; so, I would guess that's why they intermixing T80's with T206's.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/alenoxuzitmilitaryseries.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bt80uscaptainturkcommander.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Did I answer your question ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

While I was typing my response to your earlier post, I now see your new post.

After dinner I'll respond to your new post.

Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Ted:

T206 was issued essentially from the end of summer 1909 through the late spring of 1911 and I'm just wondering if the ATC had periods where T206 were not the pack inserts but some other card was. Not sure I've seen anyone comment on that before.

I'm also curious about the T206 captions-they always seemed "machined" to me, much like the theory on the blue captions I guess, i.e. they look like they could have been added after the card images were printed. I believe the T206 theory on captions is they were part of the brown ink pass but if so, would not the blue captioned cards look strange if the brown pass was skipped in say T213-2? I guess I'm trying to reconcile the pre-printed fronts with out brown captions being used for the later sets.

I wonder if the post ATC breakup issues did not use unprinted front inventory from T206 but rather they used the elements used to create those cards instead but with the blue captions. Perhaps many of the T206 litho stones had been recycled for other uses and they just used what was still at hand for the Coupons, etc.

OK, I hope I have answered your 1st paragraph here in post #16.

Regarding your 2nd paragraph..we have seen blank-back T206's. And, we have seen completely printed "nameless" T206's. Therefore, the
pre-printed fronts without brown captions sounds plausible for even the early production era of the T206's. Now the use of BLUE ink in the
post-1912 era could be because this color pass being the next to last in the printing stage ? ?


TED Z


TED Z

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

What about T80 Old Mills? Very hard to find. Any info in those records referring to Old Mill military backs?

Always thought it was interesting that T80 Lenox, Tolstoi and Uzit are relatively easy to find (especially compared to their baseball counterparts), but Old Mills are nearly impossible.


Rob

[tedzan]

If I recall correctly, no reference to the OLD MILL or the CAIRO MONOPOL T80's were in the ALC records.

But, my recollection could be wrong. I'll see if I can dig up that info.


TED Z

[toppcat]

Ted-missed #16 the last time around, looks like you answered my first question quite succinctly-thanks! Gotta think about the blue captions some more but your idea makes sense. I wonder if they no longer had access to whatever they needed for the brown captions in the production process?

[FrankWakefield]

First, I think brown captions on both T206s, T213-1s, and T215-1s are part of the regular printing process, when the frame is printed.

The font for the blue captions on the later T213s and T215s are of a different font. And the blue looks less intense, a bit washed out. Yet the artwork is the same as the successors. I do not think the blue captions were part of the regular blue process. I think the sheets went through a 'captions only' run. I've only been thinking this for a few days, I'd not contemplated it before Ted commenced this thread.

I think that 'adding' captions to the regular blue cycle would have been quite difficult. Removing the brown caption from the brown cycle not that difficult. So I think an extra printing pass for captions only would have been the most practicable way to deal with it.

So I envision a request being made for more cards, the expense discussed, then a fall back to just using the old images and reworking captions as a cost savings for these second quality cigarettes.

[tedzan]

I have amended in my initial post here, regarding the date of the printing of the A-B-C-D cards from April 1910 > June 1910.
I realized that my initial recollection was mistaken when I dug up my records.

However, my story stays the same, and the timeline for the printing of the T213-1 COUPON cards has shifted to June 1910.

Sorry about this, the 20" of snow and a recent layer of ice here in Pennsy must be affecting me :)


TED Z

[tedzan]

150/350 series Southern Leaguers (16 cards)

Bay................Nashville Volunteers
Bernhard.........Nashville Volunteers
Breitenstein.....New Orleans Pelicans
Carey.............Memphis Turtles
Cranston.........Memphis Turtles
Ellam..............Nashville Volunteers
Fritz...............New Orleans Pelicans
Greminger........Montgomery Climbers
Hickman..........Mobile Sea Gulls
Jordan............Atlanta Crackers
Molesworth......Birmingham Barons
Perdue............Nashville Volunteers
Persons...........Montgomery Climbers
Reagan............New Orleans Pelicans
Smith..............Atlanta Crackers
Thornton.........Mobile Sea Gulls


350-ONLY series Southern Leaguers (4 cards)

Hart................Montgomery Climbers
Hart................Little Rock Travelers
Lentz..............Little Rock Travelers
Rockenfeld.......New Orleans Pelicans


Some interesting tid-bits here......

Ted Breitenstein, in his 1st official Major League start, pitched a No-Hitter on Oct 4th 1891 with St Louis (American Association).
It was a near perfect game, since he faced only 27 batters. He allowed one Walk, which was erased by a Pick-Off play.

Then, approx. 8 years later (Aug 15th 1909) with the Pelicans, Ted pitched another No-Hitter (vs Montgomery).

The following year, the New Orleans Pelicans win the 1910 Southern Association pennant. Shoeless Joe Jackson batted .354......
which greatly contributed to the Pelicans Championship year.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ajoejacksonneworleans.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1910couponback.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



TED Z