T206 Marquard "White Lines"

[sreader3]

I have a T206 Marquard (Hands at Side) with an EPDG back that exhibits two near horizontal, near parallel white lines in the blue sky near the left border. I thought these were scratches until I saw Bob O'Brien's recent BST post offering a Marquard (HAS) specimen having the same white lines. Notably, Bob's card also has an EPDG back--which makes me think these white lines might be found on ALL Marquard (HAS) examples with the EPDG back, but NOT appear on any Marquard (HAS) cards that have other (i.e., non-EPDG) backs. Recognizing that these white lines are not a major distinguishing feature, I am still curious to know if anyone (1) has an EPDG copy WITHOUT the white lines and/or (2) has a non-EPDG copy WITH the white lines. Thanks. Scot

[B O'Brien]

Hi Scot,
I always noticed the lines on mine, but have never seen another EPDG, so didn't put it together.
Here is a scan of mine.
Bob
EPDG
<a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206%20Backs%20Line%20Newest/?action=view&amp;current=T206EPDGMarquardFront.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206%20Backs%20Line%20Newest/T206EPDGMarquardFront.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 EPDG Marquard PSA 4 Front"></a>

Old Mill (no longer own):
<a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/SOLD/?action=view&amp;current=T206MarquardOMfront.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/SOLD/T206MarquardOMfront.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 OM Marquard front"></a>

SC 150,25 (no longer own):
<a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/SOLD/?action=view&amp;current=T206MarquardFront-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/SOLD/T206MarquardFront-1.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 Sweet Cap 150,25 Marquard Arms at side SGC 50 front"></a>

[Danny Smith]

Perhaps el principe de gales was in a joint venture with a Colombian drug cartel. That would explain it.

I have a sweet cap 150, fact 649 without the lines.

[GoldenAge50s]

Doesn't this prove there was a separate printing just for EPDG, or have we always known there was? (Trying to learn!)

[White Borders]

This one is a Piedmont 150 with the white lines (ignore the black lines - they're from the scanner).

I also have a Piedmont 350 without the white lines.

Best Regards,
Craig

[GoldenAge50s]

I actually have a Marquard recently back from SGC to check out, but I haven't opened the box yet.

Anyhow, I guess my ? in post 4 is now moot.

[T206.org]

Comma on the jersey (Portrait), red 8 in the armpit (Throwing), white lines in the sky (HAS)... man, Marquard was one printing anomaly prone T206! :eek:

[White Borders]

I'll propose that Marquard Hands at Thighs will have the white lines for Brown Hindu, P150, SOV150, SC150 F25/30/649, and EPDG back.

And it will not have white lines for P350, OM, SC350 F30 backs. (And if it exists with SOV350 or SC350 F25 backs, it will not have white lines.)

(According to Ted Z's survey, Marquard Hands at Thighs does exist with a SOV350 back. According to Tim C's survey, it does not exist with a SC350 F25 back.)

Best Regards,
Craig

[GoldenAge50s]

My Marquard is a P150. So you are saying it will DEFINITELY have the white lines?

[B O'Brien]

Craig,
My SC 150, 25 above does not have the lines and OM does not.
Word,
Bob

[novakjr]

One question. While these lines apparently appear on all cards of certain backs, while seemingly not at all in others, and considering the way all the t206 brands are lumped into one big bunch, shouldn't this be noted as a separate variation?

I could see not even bothering to mention it if each brand were considered it's own issue. But since they're not, then it would make sense that this need mentioned and listed as it's own card.

I say, bump the master set up 1 card. We should do a poll on this.

[sreader3]

Thanks to all who have responded so far. Maybe this is another Ritchey Dove/No Dove situation--although Craig yours is the first non-EPDG I have seen with the lines.

[White Borders]

Craig,
My SC 150, 25 above does not have the lines and OM does not.
Word,
Bob

Bobby, thanks a lot for shooting down my theory in like five minutes! :D

My thinking was that since Marquard Hands at Thighs is a 150-350 series, the 150's + EPDG would have the lines and the 350's would not. Oh well.

Best Regards,
Craig

[White Borders]

My Marquard is a P150. So you are saying it will DEFINITELY have the white lines?

Hey Fred,

I think it will, but we won't know for sure until you tell us :)

Best Regards,
Craig

[B O'Brien]

Criag,
Always happy to help shoot down the easy theory!

So you gonna post a pick of the Evers in the High Grade Prewar thread for me or what! Just show me the card, I miss it so!

Hope all is well,
RJO II

[sreader3]

Craig,

I will differ from you a bit. I will guess that a small % of Piedmont 150s, a small % of Piedmont 350s and all EPDGs will show the lines, but that the other backs will not--the reason being that the lines are a print flaw that first appeared at the very end of the 150 print run and lasted until the early stages of the 350 print run when the 150/350 subjects were printed with EPDG.

Scot

[White Borders]

Scot,

I now differ with me, too. I found a P150 Marquard without the white lines in the following thread, Post #16.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=126625

Dang, second time in my life i've been wrong. :D

Best Regards,
Craig

[sreader3]

Craig,

I will probably be proven wrong in a matter of minutes too. Misery loves company!

Scot

[mrvster]

Scot,

none on my sweet cap!!:)

Peace


Johnny

[mrvster]

sorry...sweet cap 150 fact 30....:)

Johnny

[GoldenAge50s]

Scot---

Now that Craig differs w/ himself, I like your theory alot.

Craig---

I am notoriously slow when it comes to opening my submission returns--I am a firm believer that the longer one waits to look, the better the grades will be! I do not even look at my SGC report to know what they graded until such point that I open them. It drives alot of my friends crazy that I don't rip right into them.

[Abravefan11]

Craig,

I will probably be proven wrong in a matter of minutes too. Misery loves company!

Scot

Sorry Scot, I really didn't want to be the guy to post one without the lines.:mad:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/TUjIz2diiuI/AAAAAAAADZs/LXCOhOYCKOY/T206%20T-206%20Marquard%20NY%20HOF%20El%20Principe%20de%20G ales%20PSA%204%20%21%20-%20Google%20Chrome%20212011%2095959%20PM.jpg

[sreader3]

Damn it, Tim. Now I will have to rethink this whole business!

[B O'Brien]

I now want one billion dollars for my Marquard lot!
Bob

[Abravefan11]

This one has a Piedmont 150 back.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/TUjLbvNX1GI/AAAAAAAADZw/BsRMqKu3Fno/1909-11%20T206%20Rube%20Marquard%20%20Hands%20At%20Hips %20HOF%20%20PSA%205%20-%20Google%20Chrome%20212011%20101112%20PM.jpg

[sreader3]

Bob,

I view of your new price, I will offer mine for a cool $995 million.

Scot

[White Borders]

Dang it again, Tim. I was hoping my P150 with the white lines would be a rarity and I could trade it for a Wagner! :D

Always Best Regards,
Craig

[Abravefan11]

Sorry I've become such a killjoy around this place. :D

I'll see if I can come up with a few more scans to further muddy the subject.

[B O'Brien]

Scot,
That is roughly the same price you quoted me on the SC 350/460 Factory 25 Willis when I needed to finish the HOF backs line!
One back, one player = me screwed

Just kidding, as I had way more fun breaking up the Sweet Caps and Piedmonts than I did building them.

I hope all is well and I will be in touch soon, as I think you have something I need for the rebuild that is going much slower this time.

Thanks for the look at another EPDG Rube,
Bob

[teetwoohsix]

Bob- I think I have your old Marquard SC 150,,,,,,,from your first post. Don't worry, I take very good care of him :p (my scanner sucks-sorry)

Clayton

Also- no lines on this one...

[steve B]

All this about the white lines and nobody commented that the Old Mill is different from all the others shown?

The dark blue comes lower, the dark green higher, and the reddish stripe in the sky is a lot wider.

I think all 3 of these would be different positions on the plate/stone. Another piece of the puzzle to figure out the sheet layouts.

Steve B

[Abravefan11]

Steve -

The Marquard card in question is very similar to the color combinations of Ritchey. The "Dove" in the sky that shows on some Ritchey's but not on others is the result of an improvement in the application or quality of ink in the 350 series printing. A person with more understanding of the printing process could possibly speak to the exact cause of the difference.

Both cards image quality improved during the 350 series.

I don't think this is the cause of the white lines on the Marquard though.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/TUl5ErySz5I/AAAAAAAADa0/P_NcCbnccHo/s912/Recovered%20Autosave.jpg

[T206Collector]

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nZW80vsbEujrrEXLJlr2eziJm_Z5QsNdec5_I7WHZRE?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/RnNFWvP5GAI/AAAAAAAAATo/NTGfmXsPWGU/s800/Marquard%20At%20Sides%20SGC%2020%20Auto.jpg" height="800" width="490" /></a>

[sb1]

I have to disagree with this statement. The image quality on each and every card of the 150 series is far superior in color and sharpness than the 350 series.

By the time the massive 350 series was printed the stones were quite worn and reworked a bit I suspect.
As to the white lines and the doves, they were probably the results of effacing the stones.

Steve -

The Marquard card in question is very similar to the color combinations of Ritchey. The "Dove" in the sky that shows on some Ritchey's but not on others is the result of an improvement in the application or quality of ink in the 350 series printing. A person with more understanding of the printing process could possibly speak to the exact cause of the difference.

Both cards image quality improved during the 350 series.

I don't think this is the cause of the white lines on the Marquard though.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/TUl5ErySz5I/AAAAAAAADa0/P_NcCbnccHo/s912/Recovered%20Autosave.jpg

[Abravefan11]

I have to disagree with this statement. The image quality on each and every card of the 150 series is far superior in color and sharpness than the 350 series.


Hi Scott,

I wouldn't make the statement that the image quality improved on each and every card. I have Ritchey 150 cards that the quality is much nicer than 350 examples I have. I would say on the whole that the quality was improved during the 350 run but certainly not every card.

*Also the image comparison I posted is of scans I had with the greatest contrast to better show the difference in quality. Many cards fall between these examples.

[Anthony S.]

Wow, 36 posts without a single mention of Grandmaster Flash. That song's been stuck in my head since the moment I saw the thread title yesterday. Way to stay on topic, guys.

[steve B]

Wikipedia has a good explanation of how lithography works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithography

The effects shown with the dark blue color could happen from a dry plate, but that usually leaves traces on the rest of the item being printed. And the dove like area would be inconsistent or missing on many 350 cards.

The plate or stone being worn wouldn't cause something like that, as the ink accepting area would shrink or become less well defined within the same area.

If you accept the theory of a 150, a 150-350, and a 350 group of printings then there must be at least 3 different plates or stones used. Adding or changing the image on the plate is difficult for anything but fixing a small scratch. It could be done on a stone, I'm not sure it could be done on a modern plate. I think the white lines are a scratch on the plate/stone or a spot that didn't get the ink accepting coating.

Steve B

[sreader3]

Here are the results of a quick survey combining the inputs on this thread with eBay listings:

Back -- # With White Lines / Total #

EPDG -- 2/3
Old Mill -- 0/1
Piedmont 150 -- 2/10
Piedmont 350 -- 0/6
Sweet Caporal 150 -- 0/14
Sweet Caporal 350 -- 0/1

This is interesting because 150-only subjects are not known with EPDG, and EPDG is widely believed to be an early 350 series back (due to the availability of the "Elite Eight" 150/350 subjects with Piedmont 350 and EPDG but no other 350 back type).

[novakjr]

I know there is some variation in the red swirl of the Owen Wilson card. I've got two of 'em, but don't have any scans at the moment, so I'm just stealing a few images off the net.

[wrapperguy]

My Sweet Cap 150 has no lines.