Startin' Trouble, HOF Style!

[quinnsryche]

Can someone give me a good explanation why the Meusel Bros. aren't in the HOF when guys like Kell and Kiner (just to name a few) are? Feel free to chime in on Steve Garvey's omission also. Ding, let the brawl begin!:D

[bcbgcbrcb]

Kiner - 7 HR titles in a row, never been done before or since

[quinnsryche]

HR's and BB's are the only things he's got over Bob Meusel. And don't forget a staggering .279 BA!

[mr2686]

I've always thought the Meusel bros should be in the hof, as well as Garvey. If you take Cepeda, Perez and Garvey's stats side by side I think you can make a great case for Garvey. Anyway, that's my opinion and I know one that's not always shared by the Bill James groupies. :eek:

[HexsHeroes]

.

. . . is a bunch of phooey, but personally, I give far more consideration to the ballplayer who performs batting within a weak order, and for a less talented team, than the individual who benefits from playing with a team laden with talent, and batting with equally or better hitting ballplayers around them.

Bob Meusel was a very talented ballplayer, but how noteworthy would his batting statistics been hitting in Kiner's Pittsburgh line-up, and would Meusel's presence made the Pirates a much better (successful ?) team ?

Without the talent playing with him, I doubt it. And without the talent around him in the batting order, I don't think he gets the stats he did with the Yankees.

Thanks.

[ls7plus]

I'm admittedly a little biased in favor of Kiner, but in addition to the seven consecutive homerun titles--including twice over 50 (51 in 1947, and 54 in 1949), which is truly impressive in the presteroid era (only Ruth, Foxx, Mantle and Mays had done that, to my recollection)--Kiner drew a veritable ton of walks. If anyone has read Bill James' material, you know that tends to create a lot of runs. Check out his runs scored totals--they are more than good for a player who certainly wasn't blessed with speed! Because of that, my recollection without checking is that his career on-base-percentage was right around .400--extraordinary for a .279 career hitter, and almost certainly better than either Meusel!
Plus, it took me about a decade to find an example of his true rookie, the 1947 Tip-Top Bread issue! Good thread, guys!

[Robextend]

When Kiner retired, wasn't he behind Ruth, Foxx, Ott, Gehrig and Ted Williams for 6th all time in HRs? To me, that says enough...his other good numbers are gravy.

[triwak]

Just feeling kiner ornery! :)

[leaflover]

How did Mazerowski (Lifetime; 2,016 hits, .260 BA) get in and Dick Groat (Lifetime; 2,138 hits, .286 BA. plus 1960 NL MVP) didn't? Both played for the Pirates.

[iggyman]

It it well known that Bob had the best throwing arm of his generation, while Irish probably had the worst. An old story repeated many times goes something like this...................Irish is walking down the street with John McGraw, when a one-armed man approaches them. "Pardon me, I had the misfortune to lose my arm....." "Get on your way" McGraw responded. "Irish ain't got it!"

Lovely Day...

[rhettyeakley]

Mike, 8 gold gloves and that 1960 hr. I'm not sayin' it's right but that is the difference.

[mets41]

When the Vets Commitee voted Mazeroski in, the rules at that time allowed any member of the commitee to give a speech as to why the voters should vote for or against anyone on the ballot. When Maz was voted in, Joe Brown was the head of the commitee and spoke in Maz's favor. Brown was the Pirates GM during the era that Maz was on the team.

[rc4157]

The 8 gold gloves are great but without that one swing in 1960, I truly doubt that Maz would be in the HOF. I don't mind him being in though, we will certainly continue to debate the requirements to get in the HOF and that just makes things more interesting.
RC

[Exhibitman]

The Meusels didn't have any friends on the old vets' committees. Nuf ced.

[howard38]

The Meusels didn't have any friends on the old vets' committees. Nuf ced.
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Irish Meusel played most of his career as a teammate of Frankie Frisch who was THE man to know on the vet's committee. Though I guess it's possible that Frisch disliked him.

[howard38]

The Meusels didn't have any friends on the old vets' committees. Nuf ced.
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Irish Meusel played most of his career as a teammate of Frankie Frisch who was THE man to know on the vet's committee. Though I guess it's possible that Frisch disliked him.

[quinnsryche]

Any comments on Joe Judge or Ken Williams (NOT the White Sox current GM:D) and why they are not in?

[fkw]

Kiner had awesome numbers!

As far as the Meusel Bros...... a .309 or .310 Career Batting Average in the 1920s is not that great IMO
between 1920-30....... 8 players batter over .400

Plus they each played only 11 years and had less than 1700 career hits.

**Plus side they each had the same or more 100+ RBI seasons than Mickey Mantle, .........but thats not saying much :)

If you put them 2 in HOF you would need to add another 100++ with the same type of numbers.... ie Berger, Stephenson (.336), O'Doul (.349), Herman (.324), K.Williams (.319), C.Williams, Cravath (6X HR crown), Falk (.314), Travis (.314), Fournier (.313), B.Miller (.312), Jacobson (.311), Hargrave (.310), Vosmik, Burns, D.Walker, etc. etc.

[mr2686]

...and what's wrong with that? A lot of those guys should be in the hall! :D