Blyleven & Alomar get in the HOF [Archive]

Ladder7

01-05-2011, 12:18 PM

Congrats to Bert... Alomar's a spoiled, dirty punk. Any of us could expect to be fired. This b!tch gets enshrined. That's one magic loogie.

Now this guy is worthy,

Longtime umpire John Hirschbeck would like to put to rest any lingering controversy about Robbie Alomar on the Baseball Writers Hall of Fame ballot. But one fateful moment has tainted him in a lot of people's minds and undoubtedly will prompt increased scrutiny of the "character/integrity/sportsmanship" clause on the ballot. That, of course, was the Sept. 27, 1996, incident in which Alomar, then with the Baltimore Orioles, became enraged at being called out on strikes by Hirschbeck and wound up spitting in the umpire's face. Hirschbeck wants it known that, in his mind, Alomar is a good person and absolutely a Hall of Fame player.

Big Six

01-05-2011, 12:23 PM

Would people still feel the same way about Alomar if he hadn't fired that spit at the ump? And should we forgive him for that one transgression since the victim already did (many years ago to boot!)? Purely as a player, the guy is hall of fame caliber...and I'm really happy for Bert.

Orioles1954

01-05-2011, 12:28 PM

Congrats to Bert... Alomar's a spoiled, dirty punk. Any of us could expect to be fired. This b!tch gets enshrined. That's one magic loogie.

Longtime umpire John Hirschbeck would like to put to rest any lingering controversy about Robbie Alomar on the Baseball Writers Hall of Fame ballot. But one fateful moment has tainted him in a lot of people's minds and undoubtedly will prompt increased scrutiny of the "character/integrity/sportsmanship" clause on the ballot. That, of course, was the Sept. 27, 1996, incident in which Alomar, then with the Baltimore Orioles, became enraged at being called out on strikes by Hirschbeck and wound up spitting in the umpire's face. Hirschbeck wants it known that, in his mind, Alomar is a good person and absolutely a Hall of Fame player.

How would you like to be called a "f-ing, spic, fag" by an umpire? That's exactly what Hirschbeck said to Alomar. Hirschbeck actually got what he deserved that night. The two have made ammends. Alomar is absolutely a Hall of Famer

Robextend

01-05-2011, 12:32 PM

Roberto Alomar* 523 90
Bert Blyleven* 463 79.7
Barry Larkin 361 62.1
Jack Morris 311 53.5
Lee Smith 263 45.3
Jeff Bagwell 242 41.7
Tim Raines 218 37.5
Edgar Martinez 191 32.9
Alan Trammell 141 24.3
Larry Walker 118 20.3
Mark McGwire 115 19.8
Fred McGriff 104 17.9
Dave Parker 89 15.3
Don Mattingly 79 13.6
Dale Murphy 73 12.6
Rafael Palmeiro 64 11
Juan Gonzalez 30 5.2
Harold Baines^ 28 4.8
John Franco^ 27 4.6
Kevin Brown^ 12 2.1
Tino Martinez^ 6 1
Marquis Grissom^ 4 0.7
Al Leiter^ 4 0.7
John Olerud^ 4 0.7
B.J. Surhoff^ 2 0.3
Bret Boone^ 1 0.2
Benito Santiago^ 1 0.2
Carlos Baerga^ 0 0
Lenny Harris^ 0 0
Kirk Reuter^ 0 0
Bobby Higginson^ 0 0
Charles Johnson^ 0 0
Raul Mondesi^ 0 0

mr2686

01-05-2011, 12:34 PM

I don't know what the exchange of words was, but if you keep Alomar out for spitting on the Umpire, you better go back and take out Marichal for hitting Roseboro with a bat.

Vol

01-05-2011, 12:44 PM

How would you like to be called a "f-ing, spic, fag" by an umpire? That's exactly what Hirschbeck said to Alomar. Hirschbeck actually got what he deserved that night. The two have made ammends. Alomar is absolutely a Hall of Famer

I for one, did not know that Hirschbeck said that. A little over the line there.

Like the Zidane Head Butt..Just a little to much was said!

Ladder7

01-05-2011, 12:46 PM

How would you like to be called a "f-ing, spic, fag" by an umpire?

Pay me a fraction of what he made for working half a year and you and everyone else in Camden Yards could call me all the names in the book... I promise I won't have a hissy fit.

Robbie showed great spitsmanship. I can't wait to pull a 2011 Topps game-used loogie, to save for my great grandchildren to marvel at.

Orioles1954

01-05-2011, 01:07 PM

Pay me a fraction of what he made for working half a year and you and everyone else in Camden Yards could call me all the names in the book... I promise I won't have a hissy fit.

Robbie showed great spitsmanship. I can't wait to pull a 2011 Topps game-used loogie, to save for my great grandchildren to marvel at.

The umpire, who is also an employee of MLB with a substantial salary made a terrible comment. I think Alomar exhibited OUTSTANDING sportsmanship for his behavior :) Make a horrible statement, live with the consequences.

Mikehealer

01-05-2011, 01:08 PM

Just curious, did Alomar say something derogatory to him first or did Hirschbeck
call him this out of the blue.

And how did Tino Martinez get 6 votes.

Peter_Spaeth

01-05-2011, 01:12 PM

Did anyone suggest this one should keep him out of the HOF?
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3588931

glchen

01-05-2011, 01:17 PM

How would you like to be called a "f-ing, spic, fag" by an umpire? That's exactly what Hirschbeck said to Alomar. Hirschbeck actually got what he deserved that night. The two have made ammends. Alomar is absolutely a Hall of Famer

From Wikipedia:

"On September 27, 1996, during a game against his former team, the Blue Jays, Alomar got into a heated argument over a called third strike with umpire John Hirschbeck and spat in his face. He defended himself by saying Hirschbeck had uttered a racial slur and that Hirschbeck had been bitter since one son had died of ALD and another had been recently diagnosed as well. Upon hearing this public disclosure of his private life, Hirschbeck had to be physically restrained from confronting Alomar in the players' locker room."

Anthony S.

01-05-2011, 01:23 PM

So throwing only 60 shutouts during your career gets you into the Hall of Fame now??

pclpads

01-05-2011, 01:25 PM

The BBWA is a total joke as far as being a credible voting entity. Three voting monkeys from the local zoo could do a better job. Apparently, Blyleven's biting curve just got better after last throwing it 20 years ago? Please! He should have been voted in long before now. It is a HOF embarrassment that it's taken this long. And how and why does Jim Kaat remain outside the hallowed walls of Cooperstown? Certainly the best pitcher not enshrined.

tothrk

01-05-2011, 01:28 PM

If I stopped working so I could spit in the face of someone who made a horrible statement towards me, I would have to spit in the face of various people every day. He said, she said. My dad can beat up your dad. Boo Hoo. All these people need to grow up. Either you're going to keep out everyone who exhibits the behavior of a jackass or let in everybody whose accomplishments on the field warrant it.

drc

01-05-2011, 01:29 PM

The umpire forgave Alomar years ago. That's good enough for me.

bcbgcbrcb

01-05-2011, 01:31 PM

My two picks exactly

oldjudge

01-05-2011, 01:32 PM

Blyleven was just a stat accumulator. He was never thought of as one of the best pitchers of his day and he should not be in the HOF. Alomar was inducted for his play, not his personality.

Robextend

01-05-2011, 01:36 PM

My two picks exactly

I already sent SGC a request to add Blyleven and Alomar to the Post War HOF RC set on the registry. I know you are all over this too Phil! :)

Robextend

01-05-2011, 01:40 PM

Blyleven was just a stat accumulator. He was never thought of as one of the best pitchers of his day and he should not be in the HOF. Alomar was inducted for his play, not his personality.

I strongly disagree with the sentiment that Blyleven was a stat accumulator.

In his 16th season he won 17 games, and in his 17th season he won 15 and had a great postseason helping the Twins win the WS. In 1988 he had an off year (10-17) but then in his 19th season he went 17-5 with a 2.73 ERA. Then he played two more seasons winning 8 games each and retired. How is that an example of a "stat accumulator"?

keithsky

01-05-2011, 01:42 PM

That HOF voting is such a joke. Seems like they do whatever it takes to put someone in every year so they can have a induction ceromony. These guys that go in after 10-14 years on the ballot and now all of a sudden they are HOF material. I agree Blylevven should be in there but what makes him go in now and not 14 years ago when first eligible. Same with Rice last year, on the ballot 14 years and last year HOF material. To me if you don't make it in after say 3 years your not HOF worthy. Your stats don't change. They are already set in stone the day you retire. Nothing about you changes. So 6 guys go in the HOF one year what's the problem with that as long as they are HOFers. It just ticks me off when I see guys go in after at least 10 years on the ballot. Get rid of the writers and do it a different way. The only good thing they did this year was to keep McGuire and Palmerio out

Peter_Spaeth

01-05-2011, 01:42 PM

Blyleven was just a stat accumulator. He was never thought of as one of the best pitchers of his day and he should not be in the HOF. Alomar was inducted for his play, not his personality.

Agreed. I would only have voted for Alomar. Blyleven is one step down from a Hall of Famer, nice longevity stats but the mere two all star selections speaks volumes.

bcbgcbrcb

01-05-2011, 01:50 PM

Rob:

You would be right but I don't do the registry thing. I did pick up Alomar & Blyleven rookies on e-bay this past week in preparation though. I will be sending them in to SGC this week.

Rickyy

01-05-2011, 01:50 PM

Alomar most definitely belongs he was dominant at his position both offensively and defensively.... that stuff with Hirshbeck...both guys are okay with each other now...so that's most important.

Blyleven..well I think there are others guys that are to me as equal or slightly less (Niekro, Sutton) who are in there...so I can go either way with his election...he was good for a long time...but never considered him a superstar...and as mentioned previously Jim Kaat I thought was just as good.

Anthony S.

01-05-2011, 01:52 PM

Agreed. I would only have voted for Alomar. Blyleven is one step down from a Hall of Famer, nice longevity stats but the mere two all star selections speaks volumes.

I think the volumes the all-star game snubs speak is that spots on the all-star team go to undeserving players from teams who otherwise would go unrepresented. In 1984, Blyleven finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting and didn't make the all-star team. In 1989, he finished 4th in the Cy Young balloting and didn't make the all-star team.

Peter_Spaeth

01-05-2011, 01:59 PM

I think the volumes the all-star game snubs speak is that spots on the all-star team go to undeserving players from teams who otherwise would go unrepresented. In 1984, Blyleven finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting and didn't make the all-star team. In 1989, he finished 4th in the Cy Young balloting and didn't make the all-star team.

Since he played for mostly bad teams, you would think HE would have been that representative more times than two.

martyogelvie

01-05-2011, 02:10 PM

The only thing that bothers me about the writers is how can a player garner only 15% his first year of eligibility (I think i read thats what Blyleven got his first year) to over 75% in 15 or so years??? I can see garnering a few more votes here or there but to go from 15 - 75 plus is asinine to me!

I think Alamor is a perfect example of how the system should work.. he came close but didn't make it his first year but was easly in his second.

I think that if your not in after 5 years, your off the ballot.. period. It certainly would help keep some of the marginal players that seem to get better over time out of the hall.

tothrk

01-05-2011, 02:11 PM

Since he played for mostly bad teams, you would think HE would have been that representative more times than two.

I never looked at it that way. I was on the fence about Bert, but this is swaying me towards the notch below HOF camp. With players like Sutton, longevity bothers me. Just because your career lasted longer than a MEARS auction and you reached a magical number doesn't mean you should get in.

doug.goodman

01-05-2011, 02:21 PM

Finally

oldjudge

01-05-2011, 02:27 PM

ChiefBenderForever

01-05-2011, 02:41 PM

Blyleven is one step down from a Hall of Famer, nice longevity stats but the mere two all star selections speaks volumes.

I don't see the all star selection as being relevant, plus isn't it the fans who voted them in anyways ? If Blyleven was on the Yankees then maybe he would've been on more all-star teams, but seeing he played with Carew who was basically on the All-star team every year and the small market Twins usually could only have one player, two tops if lucky on the team he couldn't be on the team more than twice.

Peter_Spaeth

01-05-2011, 02:46 PM

I don't see the all star selection as being relevant, plus isn't it the fans who voted them in anyways ? If Blyleven was on the Yankees then maybe he would've been on more all-star teams, but seeing he played with Carew who was basically on the All-star team every year and the small market Twins usually could only have one player, two tops if lucky on the team he couldn't be on the team more than twice.

He played 16 seasons after he left the Twins the first time and I think Carew was gone during his second stint.

usernamealreadytaken

01-05-2011, 02:50 PM

The H-of-F will (or should) go the way of the diner's club card...

oldjudge

01-05-2011, 02:53 PM

Johnny--He didn't make the All Star team because he wasn't good enough. Regardless of where they play, HOFers should make at least one of three All Star teams. He is almost an exact match for Tommy John. In fact, Tommy John was better, and he is not in the HOF.

ChiefBenderForever

01-05-2011, 02:56 PM

You guys might be right, but if that is the case and Bert isn't good enough for the HOF then they have a lot of cleaning out to do of others who shouldn't be there.

Karl Mattson

01-05-2011, 02:57 PM

Rob--The best he ever finished in a 22 year career was third in the Cy Young voting; he was in the top ten only four times and an All Star only twice. In eight of twenty-two seasons he was at or below .500 in W/L %. He won twenty games only once, but lost seventeen games four times. He was a very good pitcher, not a HOF pitcher.

He was a very, very good pitcher for a very, very long time. When you make your league's yearly top 10 list a collective 60+ times in the categories of wins, complete games, innings, strikeouts, shutouts and ERA, and win 287 games despite support of 2 or fewer runs in over 1/3 of your career starts, and finish your career 3rd in career strikeouts and 9th in shutouts, I think you go into the Hall.

Whenever the HOF becomes a place only for the greatest of the greats, then I'd be the first to vote Bert back out (along with 50-75 others).

Anyways, I'm very happy for Bert - I've had the pleasure of chatting with him, and followed his career from the very beginning, listening to his first start on the radio back in 1970. I aspired to be a pro baseball player at the time, and thought it was just too cool that a teenager just a few years older than me was pitching for my local team.

Anthony S.

01-05-2011, 03:09 PM

In 1973 Blyleven finished 7th in the Cy Young voting.

There were 9 starting pitchers who finished in the top 10 of the voting that year (Hiller was the lone reliever). Of those 9:

-Blyleven had the 2nd lowest ERA, 2.52. Palmer was first at 2.40.
-Blyleven had the lowest Whip.
-Blyleven had the 2nd most strikeouts. That was the year Ryan had 383.
-Blyleven threw the most shutouts. Nine. Nine shutouts.
-Blyleven had the highest WAR (I'll admit I don't care about WAR, but it suits my argument here)

Wouldn't you assume that the guy with the 2nd lowest ERA, the lowest WHIP, the 2nd most strikeouts, the most shutouts, and the best WAR would finish higher than 7th?

But Blyleven went 20-17, so those 17 losses (I have no idea what his run support was like in the losses), must have knocked him down to 7th in the voting. Except Wilbur Wood, who had an ERA a full run higher than Blyleven, lost 20 games that year, and finished ahead of Blyleven in the Cy Young Voting.

uffda51

01-05-2011, 03:14 PM

It looks like it's "Wait til Next Year" for Raul Mondesi.

Re: Blyleven. Warren Spahn won 20 games 13 times, 8 times leading the league in wins including five years in a row, and made 14 All-Star teams.

Bert won 20 gmes once, never lead the league in wins, and made three all-star teams.

He may well be the first player born in the Netherlands to make the Hall.

cdn_collector

01-05-2011, 03:22 PM

Congrats Robbie!

Just like I said last year when Alomar didn't get in, I have a huge bias here. I'm thrilled he got into the HoF, and while I don't think there is any excuse ever to spit in somebody's face, I don't think it should come into the equation.

If we're going to start looking at character first, then there are some racists, bigots, cheaters, gamblers and even others that have spit in umpires faces that are already enshrined and need to have their plaques taken down.

Regards,

Richard.

Peter_Spaeth

01-05-2011, 03:25 PM

IF Bert is in, Tommy John and Jim Kaat should be in too, they are very comparable and it is hard for me to justify including only one of them. That said, I would not vote for any of them, but would put them one rung down.

barrysloate

01-05-2011, 03:34 PM

mr2686

01-05-2011, 03:39 PM

Just to answer Anthony's question about what kind of run support Bert had in those 17 loses in 1973 (you can tell I'm board), the twins scored 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 0, 2, 1, 3,1 ,2, 7, 3 and 0

mayx2

01-05-2011, 03:55 PM

The fact that these guys got votes shows what a joke the voting is! Lou

Kevin Brown^ 12 2.1
Tino Martinez^ 6 1
Marquis Grissom^ 4 0.7
Al Leiter^ 4 0.7
John Olerud^ 4 0.7
B.J. Surhoff^ 2 0.3
Bret Boone^ 1 0.2
Benito Santiago^ 1 0.2

Anthony S.

01-05-2011, 04:09 PM

The stat I simply can't get past when considered his HOF credentials is the 60 shutouts. Nowadays that's 2 full seasons of complete game shutouts. Not only is it 9th all-time, but the first 5 guys on the list were deadballers for either their entire career (Young, Mathewson, Alexander) or for the part of their career during which they registered the vast majority of their shutouts (Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander).

The only players whose careers started after 1911 who've pitched more shutouts are Spahn (63), Ryan (61), and Seaver (61). That's heady company. Ryan needed nearly 100 more starts than Blyleven to get that extra shutout, but then again he didn't have very good stuff.

And it's not a tortured statistic like "quality start," it means that 60 times in his career the opposing team couldn't do jack squat against him. More often than Gibson, Carlton, Palmer, Feller, Perry, Niekro, etc, etc., etc.

chaddurbin

01-05-2011, 04:25 PM

i'm relishing the blyleven election as much as i hated the jim rice's. thank you rich lederer.

blyleven can't control what his teammates do when he pitches, how many runs he gets, the park he plays in, the freakish ball bounces...but the things he can control he was very good at, and he did it for a LONG time (which is better than a short time). his counting stats are similar to the 8 guys below (and even better in pitching-controlled stats like bb/9, so/9, hr/9), so if he doesn't belong then take these 8 guys out also.

Don Sutton (914) *
Gaylord Perry (909) *
Fergie Jenkins (890) *
Robin Roberts (876) *
Tom Seaver (864) *
Early Wynn (844) *
Phil Niekro (844) *
Steve Carlton (840) *

Robextend

01-05-2011, 04:47 PM

Jay- I think you are selectively picking stats of Blyleven's that are not among his best. Everything you cited suggests he was borderline, but when you consider the 287 wins and 3000+ strikeouts, I believe he is deserving.

It would be like saying Nolan Ryan doesn't belong because he had a mediocre won-lost record and never won a Cy Young, but conveniently leaving out the 5714 strikeouts and the 7 no-hitters. You have to look at the whole picture, not just those stats that fall a little short.

I agree. In another thread I used Nolan Ryan as an example of using certain stats to question his HOF status (for the record I of course think he is a 1st ballot HOF).

Nolan Ryan had 9 seasons where he was a 500 or worse pitcher and he never won a CY Young award. Blyleven also had a much better K/BB ratio.

You really have to look at the whole picture. All Star games and Cy Young awards are a bit overrated IMO. Marichal never won a Cy Young award!!!!

calvindog

01-05-2011, 04:58 PM

The two AS games for Blyleven are really troubling but Anthony makes a good point about him finishing third in the CY voting and not making the AS team that year. But only four top-ten finishes for the Cy Young? That's awful. Sutton didn't fare much better, making four AS games and had five top ten CY finishes. Tommy John: four AS games and four CY top ten finishes.

Jim Rice, who many on this board whined about for making the HOF, had eight AS games and six top ten MVP finishes including one MVP award. And Barry Larkin made 12 AS teams and won an MVP award. He'll get in eventually but it's hard to argue that he wasn't at least as HOF-worthy as Blyleven.

bigtrain

01-05-2011, 05:10 PM

I wish that we could turn back the clock ,take the politics out of it and make the HOF for just the immortals of the game. We can't. Like it or not, the HOF is not the Hall of Immortals and hasn't been since almost the beginning. There are a lot of players enshrined who were just very, very good, not great. We could all rattle off a dozen or more questionable selections and I don't say this to start a debate about any one of them. Tinker, Evers, Chance and Pennock inducted in the 40s. Wallace, Maranville, Schalk in the 50s. Rixey, Faber, Grimes, Hoyt, Haines, Marquard, Hafey, Lindstrom, George Kelly, etc. My point is that although Blyleven would not have gotten my vote, his election does not dilute the HOF. That was done long ago. Blyleven was a very, very good pitcher and its hard to argue with 60 shutouts.

sox1903wschamp

01-05-2011, 06:09 PM

Blyleven was a very, very good pitcher and its hard to argue with 60 shutouts.

60 Shutouts is impressive. He get's my vote just on that.

oldjudge

01-05-2011, 06:47 PM

Barry--Why so much emphasis on strikeouts? An out is an out. If you are a ground ball pitcher with a 3.50 ERA are you any different than a strikeout pitcher with a 3.50 ERA?

Big Six

01-05-2011, 06:52 PM

there is a good arguement that ERA is a lousy stat, too...

Chris Counts

01-05-2011, 07:03 PM

At least they got it right with Blyleven and Alomar. They blew it with Larkin, but I suspect he'll get in next year. As for Surhoff, Tino Martinez and Grissom getting votes, it's proof that just because somebody pays a guy to write about baseball for a living doesn't mean he knows anything about the game ...

barrysloate

01-05-2011, 07:04 PM

I wouldn't put so much emphasis on strikeouts, but it is a pitching stat that is loved by fans and respected by people who follow the game. Blyleven had 3701 and is 5th all time. Maybe only one of many factors, but a superlative one that is a big part of his career.

Look, as we've said there are at least 100 guys or more that don't belong in the hall, but if you accept the fact that Perry, Sutton, Niekro among others are in, then Blyleven should be too.

Peter_Spaeth

01-05-2011, 07:58 PM

I would rank Perrry well above Niekro and Sutton, and so does Bill James. He had two Cy Youngs and just missed a third, to go with the rest of his stats.

mintacular

01-05-2011, 08:18 PM

One of the by-products of rejecting steroid-era players is that borderline HOF pre-steroid guys like Blyleven will slip in.

Peter_Spaeth

01-05-2011, 08:31 PM

One of the by-products of rejecting steroid-era players is that borderline HOF pre-steroid guys like Blyleven will slip in.

That is a great point. Given the mentality that 1 or 2 guys have to get in every year, replacements have been and will continue to be needed for Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Clemens et al.

SethY

01-05-2011, 10:52 PM

WAR really helped out Blyleven for the stat junkies.

chaddurbin

01-05-2011, 11:47 PM

Barry--Why so much emphasis on strikeouts? An out is an out. If you are a ground ball pitcher with a 3.50 ERA are you any different than a strikeout pitcher with a 3.50 ERA?

strikeout is more valuable than a groundout. so is absolute, it doesn't depend on the luck of the ball, the defense behind, or various park factors. a go pitcher can have a 3.50 era this year, but next year it can be 5.00 while pitching the same way. one of the ways to measure a pitcher's true effectiveness now is through his defense-indepedent or fielding-indepedent pitching metrics...pitchers can't really control wins and there's a bit of luck in the traditional era.

triwak

01-06-2011, 01:05 AM

I think both are deserving. And I'm already on record with my incredulity about what some consider to be a "watered down" Hall of Fame! Only about ONE percent of the total number of major league players have been enshrined. Using that barometer, it is by far the most difficult HOF of any of the major sports in which to be honored! You may argue for or against any specific player. But I just do not understand this desire for a HOF of only the top 50 players, or whatnot. Come on, really?

barrysloate

01-06-2011, 04:32 AM

There are certain glamour statistics and the strikeout is one of them. Why do we see fans in the bleachers bringing K cards to post after each strikeout when the team's ace is on the mound? It just has that status and the fans love them.

Peter_Spaeth

01-06-2011, 05:14 AM

Bert has a website that, in part, promoted himself for the Hall. Interesting.
http://www.bertblyleven.com/hall_of_fame.shtml

dabigyankeeman

01-06-2011, 07:49 AM

Voters who voted for guys like Marquis Grissom, Leiter, Olerud, Surhoff, Boone, etc are making a mockery of the Hall and should not be allowed to vote in future elections.

Cy2009

01-06-2011, 10:00 AM

I would rank Perrry well above Niekro and Sutton, and so does Bill James. He had two Cy Youngs and just missed a third, to go with the rest of his stats.

If you accept Perry in the Hall of fame, then you must let McGwire, Bonds et al. into the Hall as well. Does anyone think that Gaylord would have had any chance for the Hall without the spitball?

Cy

philliesphan

01-06-2011, 10:26 AM

Just to answer Anthony's question about what kind of run support Bert had in those 17 loses in 1973 (you can tell I'm board), the twins scored 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 0, 2, 1, 3,1 ,2, 7, 3 and 0

Funny, a truly bad team did not disturb Steve Carlton's 1972 accomplishments. And yet no one argues about whether or not he is HOF-worthy.

That is the difference between truly dominant and merely great. Carlton was dominant. Blyleven was great for a long time, but never dominant.

philliesphan

01-06-2011, 10:29 AM

Bert has a website that, in part, promoted himself for the Hall. Interesting.
http://www.bertblyleven.com/hall_of_fame.shtml

Peter, intriguing especially since one of the tables is Most # of Career Home runs allowed, where Blyleven ranks seventh. The site says "ALL-TIME HOMERUNS ALLOWED- Blyleven ranks 7th (6 of top 10 are in the Hall of Fame - Moyer and Johnson not eligible yet)"

I'm not sure how or why it is relevant that 6 of the top 8 are in the HOF, since the last time I checked, giving up a Home Run was a BAD thing...

tbob

01-06-2011, 10:42 AM

Voters who voted for guys like Marquis Grissom, Leiter, Olerud, Surhoff, Boone, etc are making a mockery of the Hall and should not be allowed to vote in future elections.

One of the two guys who voted for BJ Surhoff was on the radio yesterday and said he followed Surhoff since he was a 12 year old playing ball and knew him and his family and the vote was largely ceremonial, a one time vote. That doesn't excuse it but certainly explains why.

rhettyeakley

01-06-2011, 10:47 AM

Peter, intriguing especially since one of the tables is Most # of Career Home runs allowed, where Blyleven ranks seventh. The site says "ALL-TIME HOMERUNS ALLOWED- Blyleven ranks 7th (6 of top 10 are in the Hall of Fame - Moyer and Johnson not eligible yet)"
I'm not sure how or why it is relevant that 6 of the top 8 are in the HOF, since the last time I checked, giving up a Home Run was a BAD thing...

What is misleading about that as a statistic is that if a pitcher is no good and gives up a lot of home runs he will not last long enough in the league to make that list. When you are a power/strikout pitcher you WILL give up homeruns. Also, in order for a pitcher to last 15 to 20 years in the league is very difficult because they need to show they are consistently worth the roster spot, which is why most pitchers at the top of that list are there--longevity, NOT b/c they weren't any good. It is like someone bringing up Cy Young's LOSS total and using that as the reason Young isn't any good--VERY misleading stat as Young also has the most WINS.

Voters who voted for guys like Marquis Grissom, Leiter, Olerud, Surhoff, Boone, etc are making a mockery of the Hall and should not be allowed to vote in future elections.

Not so fast on Olerud, I don't consider the guy a HOFer BUT he quietly put up some decent #'s and was regarded as a good fielder as well. Combined with the fact that Olerud may very well have been the slowest player to EVER PLAY I don't have any problem with his name on that list--he is a very similar "statistical" player as Will Clark. Also, Olerud is among the best guys to ever play the game.

-Rhett

tbob

01-06-2011, 10:52 AM

The spiting incident was bad but lest we forget, Ty Cobb climbed in the stands and savagely beat up a cripple who was supposedly heckling him. Juan Marichal took a bat to the head of Johnny Roseboro and could have killed him. I think that put in to perspective the spitting incident shouldn't have kept the best 2b of his time out of the Hall.
As far as Blyleven goes, when he retired was second all time on the strike out list. He lost a lot of 1-0 and 2-1 complete games because the Twins' offense was awful during those years.
I think the Hall of Fame is for players who were the best of their time. Obviously there is a tier of dominant players and a tier of great players. Bert was not dominant but he had a great career.
I also think Jack Morris should be in. Maz is in but would never have made it except for the HR in Game 7 in 1960. Morris had a superb career and was the ace for 3 different teams, the Tigers, Twins and Blue Jays. His performance in game 7 in 1991 should be the icing on the cake. I hope he makes it eventually. :)

dabigyankeeman

01-06-2011, 11:07 AM

One of the two guys who voted for BJ Surhoff was on the radio yesterday and said he followed Surhoff since he was a 12 year old playing ball and knew him and his family and the vote was largely ceremonial, a one time vote. That doesn't excuse it but certainly explains why.

Yeah, I think most of the time those votes are something like that, but it still isnt right in my eyes. Hey, if I could vote than maybe one day I could vote for Doug Meintkeiwicz, because I have met him quite a few times and he is nicest guy!!! :D

byrone

01-06-2011, 11:09 AM

If you accept Perry in the Hall of fame, then you must let McGwire, Bonds et al. into the Hall as well. Does anyone think that Gaylord would have had any chance for the Hall without the spitball?

Cy

Just reading "Now Pitching" byBob Feller. He included Gaylord Perry in his top 10 pitchers of all-time. I'm willing to bet that the Perry "spitball" had much more psychologcal benefit for him than it did practical.

Peter_Spaeth

01-06-2011, 11:18 AM

Just reading "Now Pitching" byBob Feller. He included Gaylord Perry in his top 10 pitchers of all-time. I'm willing to bet that the Perry "spitball" had much more psychologcal benefit for him than it did practical.

Somewhere I read an interview with his catcher for one of his Cy Young seasons (forget which one) who said he threw maybe two spitters the whole year. It was the mind games that gave him the advantage.

barrysloate

01-06-2011, 11:18 AM

I was thinking the same thing. If Mazeroski didn't hit that home run he's probably not in the Hall of Fame.

Touch'EmAll

01-06-2011, 11:34 AM

So where do you put Blyleven on a ranking scale for his era?

Was he the most dominant pitcher?

Was he the second most dominant pitcher of his era?

Was he the 10th most dominant pitcher of his era?

Lets see: He needs to be ranked with Carlton, Seaver, Ryan, Palmer, Sutton, Eckersly, Jack Morris, Dave Stewart, Luis Tiant, Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry - I know I am forgetting a few.

But do honestly rank Blyleven up there with the Best of the Best??

Come on, answer is not quite.

nolemmings

01-06-2011, 11:45 AM

I'm biased in favor of Bert, who not only didn't pitch in the AL East but who also was not widely liked by the media--he was far from the affable fellow on TV these days. Still, 60 shutouts just doesn't lie, especially with that many strikeouts. That's a guy taking the mound and you not being able to do a damn thing to beat him, oftentimes not even to put the ball in play. That is dominant, IMO.

Blyleven had one fewer shutout than Nolan Ryan and Tom Seaver, and more than Gibson and Carlton--only 4 deadball pitchers and Warren Spahn (63) had more. He finished in the top 5 in WHIP seven times, ERA seven times and Ks/Ws thirteen times. Compare Carlton 5-5-7, Seaver 9-7-7, Palmer 6-10-1 and Jenkins 4-0-9.

Count me among those who places little on All-Star appearances, especially for pitchers and during an era when at least one team had to have a representative. On Bert's teams, this meant Carew and Stargell/Parker for the first 11 seasons of his career, and Puckett for several more later. Of the four seasons he played in Cleveland, Bert made the game once and should have made it a second time, 1984, when his season numbers were better than four of the five starters--only Boddicker had him in wins 20 to 19 (although Boddicker had 2 more losses) and ERA 2.79 to 2.87--and where one, White Sox lone representative Richard Dotson, finished under .500 with an ERA of 3.59. At the end of his career in Anaheim, he had another All Star year, going 17-5 with a 2.73 ERA and league-leading 5 shutouts at age 38. These numbers were stronger than any of the All-Star starters other than World Champion A's Dave Stewart and Mike Moore. No All-Star game for Bert then either. Big deal.

Robextend

01-06-2011, 11:49 AM

Lets see: He needs to be ranked with Carlton, Seaver, Ryan, Palmer, Sutton, Eckersly, Jack Morris, Dave Stewart, Luis Tiant, Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry - I know I am forgetting a few.

Well as far as that list goes I put Carlton, Seaver, Ryan, Palmer, Jenkins and Perry ahead of Blyleven. It can certainly be argued that he was better than Sutton, Morris or Tiant. And although Dave Stewart was a very good pitcher, he isn't in the same league as those other guys. During the era in which those guys pitched Eckersley was a SP, and he is in the HOF because of his days as a RP so I don't think Eck should be in this argument.

Touch'EmAll

01-06-2011, 12:09 PM

Anthony S.

01-06-2011, 12:13 PM

Pitchers make up a minimum of 40% of every roster (50% of a roster is you have a 4 game series at Coors Field). Being the 6th most dominant pitcher of an era means a heck of a lot more than being the 6th best catcher of an era.

All I am saying is if Blyleven is, say, the 6th (give or take) most dominant pitcher of his era - does that give him HOF credentials?

Does the 6th most domnant center fielder of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant shortstop of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant catcher of the era get in HOF?

At some point you have to draw the line.

rhettyeakley

01-06-2011, 12:19 PM

All I am saying is if Blyleven is, say, the 6th (give or take) most dominant pitcher of his era - does that give him HOF credentials?

Does the 6th most domnant center fielder of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant shortstop of the era get in HOF?

Does the 6th most dominant catcher of the era get in HOF?

At some point you have to draw the line.

That is a silly argument, take a look at your average team roster, what percent of the roster is made up of 1st Basemen? There is usually one and a Utility player to fill the holes when needed. Look at the team pitching corp--Pitchers make up nearly half a teams roster, so why would you compare it to any single position in the field? Totally apples & oranges here.

Touch'EmAll

01-06-2011, 12:22 PM

Point taken - yes, pitchers should have a higher percentage in HOF.

But really folks, Blyleven is now in - but Roger Maris, a two time MVP and holder of one of the most hallowed records in all of sports (pre-juice era) is not in HOF ??? Maris is not famous enough - after all, its called the hall of "FAME."

I did see Blyleven in person when he pitched for the Angels. He had one of smoothest deliveries of any pitcher I ever saw - smooth as silk. And yes, lifetime shutout numbers point in his favor.