OT - Does anyone have the 1911 Strat-O-Matic Card set?

[Cy2009]

Hi,

I know that this is a little off-topic. I didn't know where to put it.

Does anyone have the 1911 Strat-O-Matic Card set? I need to get help with one card, Al Bridwell, 1911 New York Giants. If you have this card, would you send a scan of the front/back of this card to: cyrilp@visuallink.com?

Thanks.

Cy

[vintagecpa]

I know a guy that played an entire season (all teams) playing strato-matic. It took him 7 years and he kept track of every stat. He is about 1/3 of the way through his 2nd season. Not my first choice to waste time, but a very interesting game. I had no idea this game went that far back.

[Rich Klein]

Is an "old-timers' set; Strat only goes back to the late 50's or early 60's

Rich

[Butch7999]

"Strat" debuted in 1961. "Old-timer" or "historic" card sets for seasons 1911-present are available.
Cy, check in at our own Baseball Games forum --
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/baseballgames/
-- one of our group's 1,100+ members is likely to have the 1911 season set and the Bridwell card you need.

[MDCook]

Never played Strat-o-matic but I played APBA when I was younger. Very fun way to pass the time.

[milkit1]

How is that played anyways?

[Butch7999]

How APBA plays:
http://www.apbagames.com/stadium/games/board/baseball/pro_baseball_guide.html

How Strat-O-Matic plays:
http://www.strat-o-matic.com/about/how-to-play/baseball

[milkit1]

neat!
which do you think i shoudl go for? Is there accessories that i need besides the team cards?

[familytoad]

I don't know how well it has aged now that we've all got computers, live streaming action, and XBox etc to compare it to, but I "rolled the dice" from 1976 up to about 1982 or so. I played complete seasons, compiling stats on notepaper and even joined a mail-league where we would play a portion of the schedule and mail the results off to our opponents for the "road" games.
Very sophisticated!
The amazing thing was, as you played out a season, the players would come remarkably close to their real regular season stats for the prior year...while I remember some anomalies, there were many hitters who ended up pretty darn close.
It was a big part of my teenage years...I invested in the old-timers and played the greats against each other. Oh how I can remember how hard it was to get 1922 George Sisler out!

So, I recommend APBA for purely selfish reasons. I still have my game and all of the cards somewhere...I never played much Strat, but I know their fan base is just as fanatic!

[Butch7999]

Sean, can't (won't...) recommend one over the other -- they're both evergreens with loyal followings. Both have computer versions as well as the standard boardgame versions, and there are loyal camps for both methods too -- although we will say that we much prefer rolling dice on cardboard to clicking icons on a computer screen. Follow the links at the webpages in our previous post (#7) for more info on what's included, what's needed, and what options are available for each game.

Have to add, too, that they're far from the only tabletop sims out there --
Pursue the Pennant [http://www.designdepot.com/] is hugely popular and highly regarded,
as is Replay [http://www.replaybb.com/], Sherco's Grand Slam!, and
Baseball Classics [http://www.playbaseballclassics.com/], among many many others.
Four other games you might want to look into, all officially out of print but kept alive by their own legions of fans, are
Statis Pro Baseball [http://statisprobaseball.wordpress.com/],
All-Star Baseball [http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CadacoAllStarBaseballGame/],
Big League Manager, and the Sports Illustrated Baseball Game.

[milkit1]

awesome, I think im gonna try apba. I like the idea of playing it and writing it out as opposed to a pc doing it. Maybe I can get some of you guys to play me via text :) I want to try to get any season between 1906-1922 so ill let ya know what I end up with :)

[milkit1]

does it matter what edition of the actual board game I get? i plan on buying a particular season and I noticed the board games from the 90's are pretty cheap. Can I play a 1910 season on a 1994 board game?

[vintagecpa]

I'm not as familiar with the other game, but Strat-o-matic is a wonderful board game, although I don't think it would translate well to text or mail. I've never played the PC game. Years ago, My friend who is addicted to the game use to bring over a couple of teams and we would play a 7 game series together. Whenever he would get a new season of cards, we would replay the playoffs and world series. The games only take about 25-30 minutes, so you could play a whole 7 game series in 2-3 hours.

The game has all the strategy a normal series would have. The cards have actual lefty-righty stats for different players. Slower players will bounce into more double-plays. You can't use the same relief pitchers every game. Injuries, fielding errors, intentional walks, max-innings for different pitchers, etc. etc. It take a few practice games to get the hang of everything, but once you do, it is an amazingly detailed and realistic game.

If you are more into PC games, and you simply enjoy being the GM having to deal with trading, free-agents, budgets, etc, I would recommend Baseball Mogul. I would hate to imagine how many hours I have killed simulating season after season.

[barrysloate]

I grew up on Strat-O-Matic and just loved it. I would play an abbreviated season, and kept a notebook with complete stats that I inputed after each game. I still have the cards for the 1927 Yankees, but lost the game many years ago.

[Rob D.]

In 1990, Strat had a short-lived promotion in which for about $20 you could submit a set of statistics, and the company would create a player card for you. I used stats from my best minor-league season and got the card below. Now, I often play center field for the 1948 Indians.

[barrysloate]

Rob- you had a great 1 and 3 column, and I like your AA stealing and 1-17 running (the highest running you can have). I guess you had speed. When I played in 1964 and 1965 they still hadn't invented the righty-lefty cards. That came later. I also see your 1-4 was a complete TRIPLE, it wasn't split. It was rare to see a full number TRIPLE.

[Rob D.]

Rob- you had a great 1 and 3 column, and I like your AA stealing and 1-17 running (the highest running you can have). I guess you had speed. When I played in 1964 and 1965 they still hadn't invented the righty-lefty cards. That came later. I also see your 1-4 was a complete TRIPLE, it wasn't split. It was rare to see a full number TRIPLE.

Barry,

I was happy with the accuracy of the card with one exception: the lefty-righty split on the advanced side is pretty generous. Of course, that's not something the company could accurately program without the real L-R stats, which I didn't have. So I'm sure they used more of a cookie-cutter formula for the advanced side.

Doesn't matter much to me, because I've always preferred the basic version anyway.

[barrysloate]

I found the basic version to be accurate enough too. The only advantage of the righty-lefty split was it forced the team in the field to handle relief pitchers more carefully. I also see you were a 1 centerfielder. You obviously had skills.

[milkit1]

Well darn now I'm totally torn as to what to get. I'm really looking for the most accurate and fun one that I can play either by myself or with someone specifically with pre 1940 teams

[baseballart]

I found the basic version to be accurate enough too. The only advantage of the righty-lefty split was it forced the team in the field to handle relief pitchers more carefully. I also see you were a 1 centerfielder. You obviously had skills.

Although with only a "3" rating in RF and LF, Robmay have been shy of the corners ;)

I collected SOM cards from about 1969 to 1992 or so, buying cards each year. Over the course of that time, I also picked up original sets of a few of the pre-1969 sets. I also have a few (8 or so) of the very very rare cards from either the first or second year of SOM, 1960 or 61--I'll have to go back and check.

I think the last time SOM came up, I promised to post these, but don't think I ever did.

[barrysloate]

Has anyone ever seen, or possibly have a scan of, Barry Bonds's 2002 Strat-O-Matic card? I'm guessing it is virtually all hits and walks, with only a number or two representing an out.

[Rob D.]

Although with only a "3" rating in RF and LF, Robmay have been shy of the corners ;)



Max,

I always found it so much easier reading the ball off the bat in center field than in left or right. More than a few times when I was in right field, I looked like I was wearing skates.

[baseballart]

Max,

I always found it so much easier reading the ball off the bat in center field than in left or right. More than a few times when I was in right field, I looked like I was wearing skates.

Rob

I should have worn skates in Little League; it could only have helped. I think I hit .222 when I was 12 and switched to basketball, where my university scoring average was something like 0.7 ppg.

I also sucked in hockey. Growing up in Saskatoon Saskatchewan, that was not a good thing.

[T206BrownHindu]

I spent much of my childhood playing APBA. We even had a rec class at school that consisted of 26 kids (for 26 teams at the time) each playing their own team. I remember that I was the '84 Padres...I still don't know how that team made the WS that year...they were terrible in APBA!

If I remember correctly, they have (had) a Master version and a Basic version of the game. Also, they used to be based in Lancaster, PA...not sure if that is still true or not.

[MDCook]

Played in many APBA mail leagues in 80's and early 90's. A lot of fun drafting your team and looking forward to next years crop of rookies to draft. Always played the basic game and could finish a game in 15-20 minutes. Haven't played in years but this thread brings back good memories.

Matt

[FrankWakefield]

I played APBA.... still have a bunch of those cards in the attic. Tilly Shafer was great in the 1912 World Series set... seemed to always get on base, then could run like a rabbit.

A bunch of us played lots of All Star Baseball, it was put out by Avalon Hill as I recall. Simple but fun. We had a league, a WS. Cy Young threw the only no hitter we had, and we must have played a thousand games. He walked 2.

And for our 1948 Indians fan....
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/ClevelandIndians1948Exhibit.jpg

[Butch7999]

All-Star Baseball -- produced in various editions from 1941 to 1993, and again in 2003 and '04, as All-Star Baseball game, Ethan Allen's All-Star Baseball game, All-Star Baseball, Strategic All-Star Baseball, and The Original All-Star Baseball, among other variations -- was made by Cadaco-Ellis (later just Cadaco). That's the spinner game with the circular "pie-chart" disks
[ http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CadacoAllStarBaseballGame/ ].

Avalon Hill published Baseball Strategy and several versions of Statis Pro Baseball, both as Avalon Hill games and in conjunction with Sports Illustrated Games, and Superstar Baseball! in partnership with SI.

Superstar Baseball! was a follow-up version of SI's 1971 Baseball Game, which featured then-current players and teams. A 1973 version, All-Time All-Star Baseball, featured Hall of Fame players from all eras. That version later became Superstar Baseball!.

APBA [ http://www.apbagames.com/stadium/index.html ] is still based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania -- site of the 2011 Annual Convention of the Association of Game & Puzzle Collectors [ http://www.agpc.org/ ].

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Sean- Apba has seasons from 1883, 1901 and 1905-2010. Many are still available from the company just Google Apba Stadium. There are a few really scarce season from the 1920's-40's that were issued in the early to mid-1990s when they were in financial trouble. They seem really strong right now.

Every season plays with any of the games, basic game components are really cheap. There is a Master Game that adds arm strength, speed and some other player attributes but the basic game is just as much fun and really fast. A game can be played in under 15 minutes easy. I loved playing with the deadball era teams, it really added some flesh to my T205s and T206s. In the 1970s I created a cover sheet in one of my mail leagues with the "T" cards of my team. It always drew a great reaction from my opponents.

Strat and Replay are super games too. The only problem I have ever had with Strat is that they seem to sell partial season sets more than complete seasons. When you find them they only have 4 or 5 teams? I like having all the teams and all the players. Replay seems really accurate but takes longer to play.

I don't play much any more (really since the 1970s) but I always have it in the back of my mind that I will someday, maybe when I retire. Hey that is not too far off????

[Cy2009]

Hey! Hey!

You mean with all of the talk about Strat-o and APBA, no one has the 1911 card set? People I just need a scan of the 1911 Bridwell card. Please
send a scan to: cyrilp@visuallink.com

OK, back to the discussion!

Cy

[milkit1]

thanks mike! Apba it is then. sounds like a lot of fun! I think ill buy what ever board is cheapest and buy my season seperatly. Looking forward to trying this.

[Cy2009]

Sean,

Just a thought about Strat-O vs APBA, the nice thing about Strat-O is that the actual outcomes are on the card. So you see the volume of HRs and hits and walks and strikeouts right on the card. I think that APBA uses charts with everything. Strat-O does use charts, but mostly you read directly from the card.

Here is the APBA Wagner card

<img src="http://www.cyscards.com/misc/apba%20honus%20wagner%201912.jpg">

Here are a couple of Strat-O cards

<img src="http://www.cyscards.com/misc/strato%20cards.jpg">

I always liked to see the actual output on the cards. I did mathematical comparisons of the greatest players of all time. It was fun and easy to compare the data from the respective probabilities.

Cy

[Butch7999]

Cy, see post #4...

[barrysloate]

Mike- as I recall you could buy the entire league with Strat-O-Matic; or, you could purchase a sampler with only five or six teams of your choice. I guess those smaller sets were quite popular.

[milkit1]

thanks cy, wow that does look really confusing. what do some of those numbers mean on the wagner?

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Barry I also think that Strat went retail much earlier than APBA? The store model sets probably were the 5 team sets? I have intended to buy the new book on the history of Strat but just have not done it yet.

Sean the numbers correspond to the charts, there is a chart for each game situation such as bases empty, man on first etc... After a dozen or so games you know what the numbers mean 90 percent of the time; a 13 is a strikeout, 14 base on balls and the big numbers are 1 a homer, 2 homer or some level of extra base hit, 6 a double and such. I agree that having the results on the card for Strat is nice but you also have to cross reference quite a bit. Both games are great I think preferences come from the one you played when you were young.

I also think that both games tug at collectors like us since they have such long histories and so many sets and special teams to collect.

By the way both APBA and Strat football are just so-so at best and APBA basketball is just plain terrible while APBA golf is fantastic!

Good luck Sean and have fun with your choice!

[milkit1]

Thanks for the heads up. The strat cards look less confusing to me. I think im just going to have to buy one and see for meself. Ill keeep ya guys posted on my progress :)

[barrysloate]

Mike- APBA goes back to 1950 or 1951; Strat started in 1962.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Richard Seitz started APBA in 1951 after he was so excited about the Whiz Kids 1950 season. I think he had been creating his own sets and refining a game called National Pastime from 1931 that he played as a kid.

I bid against Mark M. for a copy of National Pastime several years ago but lost, I think there has been a reproduction of it sold in the last few years.

While Strat was sold in toy stores going back to the 1970s I think APBA first tried it around 1995 during their "dark" years of change.

The 1950-54 APBA original sets are very scarce with the 1955 & 56 seasons also pretty darned tough to find. Thankfully the company has reprinted these seasons so that everyone can own them. The reprints are vastly different in appearance from the originals.

I think the early Strat seasons are very tough too.

[barrysloate]

Mike- about ten years ago someone consigned a set of 1953 APBA to one of our auctions. My partner took it as a favor and started it at $100. I think it sold for about $1000 with a ceiling bid much much higher than that. That's when we learned the early sets are rare and in demand.

[Rob D.]

Around the same time as Barry's story (actually, 1997 or so), my wife and I were cleaning out the garage shortly after we had moved to a new city. In one of the moving boxes was a shoebox of Strat cards from the 1976, '77 and '78 seasons. I literally tossed the box in the garbage can but then thought that it wouldn't cost much to sell them on eBay, so I might as well try.

I sorted through all the teams (replacing brittle, old rubberbands along the way) and figured out that two seasons were complete and the other was missing maybe 10 players or so. This was in the early days of eBay, so I didn't have a lot of experience with how things can get crazy in the final minutes of an auction. I had a hint that there was a lot of interest based on the number of e-mails I received, but I wasn't prepared so see the price go from less than $50 to more than $400 in the span of the final 15 seconds. Man, that was fun.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Wow, both of those stories are great. I think I read one time that APBA only sold around 100 sets or less that first year in 1951. I have no idea what they would go for or the last time one was offered.

I am now motivated to order the fairly new book on the history of Strat to learn more about its' history. I may even pull a game down off the shelf to play a game. I have picked up about a dozen Strat games over the years at sales, none have omplete seasons though. Same for the Cadaco All-Star baseball, it still has quite a following. I counted nine of those dating back to 1951. I have just always loved the graphics on the old games.

[barrysloate]

Isn't Cadaco the one with the round player disks and the spinner? That game worked on the same priniciple as Strat-O-Matic: if your rolled the dice or spun the spinner enough times, a player would perform exactly as he did during a season. Both games were based on mathematical probability. I don't know if APBA was also. In fact to this day I don't understand how APBA works (I know there is a link above that I want to read).

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Barry, yes APBA is strictly a mathematical formula game. Each player card is created based on his performance from the year.

The Master Game adds a little more pitching counter balance to each at bat. The basic game has a die result that corresponds to a on base chart, there are columns that reflect the teams defensive rating (each player is rated by position then added together) and the pitchers "grade." The pitchers are rated A B C D and have a strikeout rating that can add to the pitchers strenght.

With all of that said it takes only one or two games for it all to become second nature. Games can be played very quickly.

I have played their computer version and it takes the math to a higher level but there is just something about handling the cards that makes it more fun. If I were serious about playing a whole season or even a team's season I would use the computer version since it also has available a stat organizer and compiler.

I think one of the reasons I liked APBA over Strat is that APBAs' game contents seem a little more polished. The cards have rounded corners and a company logo on the back. They are also in team printed envelopes. Does this make it a better game to play, not really, just a better presentation.

[barrysloate]

I used to be able to play a full nine innings of Strat-O-Matic in about 20-30 minutes, so my friend and I could play a doubleheader after school and still have some time left to get a little fresh air. I thought the game was accurate and exciting.

[Harford20]

About a year ago, I purchased an early 1970's complete APBA game, with several 1950's teams. As noted by Milkit1's comments on Cy's post of the Wagner APBA card, it looks very confusing to start, but is easily understood after starting to play. The black numbers are the dice roll (red die 1-6, white die 1-6) and then corresponding red numbers are evaluated on the Situation Board. Each hitter and pitcher is graded (with corresponding numbers) based on the previous season stats.

I have played about 20 games over the past year, but a season would be time consuming (even for a single team, let alone a league). APBA also has "extended" rules for experienced players to get into stealing, bunting, field player movement (shifts, infield in, etc) but I have not gotten to these add-ons yet. All and all, fun to play.

Dave

[milkit1]

does strat have stealing?

[barrysloate]

Yes- the stealing is rated from AAA (best) to E (lead-footed). If you look at Rob D.s card, or that of Cleon Jones, you can see the players steal rating in the upper right corner. Lou Brock and Rickey Henderson might get AAA, but that's about it.

[Cy2009]

Barry,

I don't have the 2002 Bonds card. But here is a scan of the 2001 Bonds card (73 HRs).

<img src="http://www.cyscards.com/misc/bonds2001.jpg">

Cy

[barrysloate]

Thanks Cy. That of course is about as good as a hitter's card can possibly be. 2002 would likewise be an interesting one.

I just noticed that it doesn't even have a SINGLE on it, only extra base hits. Amazing.

[Cy2009]

Barry,

I have done a lot of mathematics on the Strat-O-Matic cards. I am a math prof so I love it when baseball and math collide (as they often do). About twenty years ago, pre-kids, I was working on my own computer version of the strat-o baseball game and I learned a great amount of knowledge of strat-o-matic from doing this. I had to transfer all of the baseball information into numbers. It was a lot of fun to make the results computer friendly and more work than I could do now with kids. So I figured out how Strat-O has to assemble the cards.

You pointed out that Bonds doesn't have a single on his card, but he had plenty of singles that year. The reason that there are no singles on his card is that he will pick up the singles on the pitchers' cards. The way the cards need to be done is to make sure that the average of Bonds' card combined with the average pitcher's card yields Bonds' true stats of the year.

I could go into detail, but it might bore you. If you are interested in details, let me know and I'll send you an E-mail. I'm sorry. I get on a roll when I can think math and baseball at the same time.

Take care.

Cy

[bbcard1]

I work on a computer 12 to 16 hours most days. The last thing I want is a computer sim baseball game. Give me my APBA cards and let me roll the dice.

I played several games sitting in a beach chair on a beach in Jamaica with people bringing me cold Red Stripes last summer. It didn't suck.

[barrysloate]

Cy - I'm pretty good at math too and if I remember correctly I may have designed some of my own Strat cards when I was a kid. And of course Bonds will pick up his singles from the 4-5-6 columns. Strat-O-Matic is a statistician's dream and that's what I always found so appealing about it.

[milkit1]

ok reallllly wanting a stra o matic now. Anyoe got one they arent using? lol

[milkit1]

is there any way to download the actual cards for a season?