Has anyone here seen a Cobb (bat off shoulder) with a DRUM back ?

[tedzan]

It has been reported in the past that this T206 Cobb exists with a DRUM back. And, recently I was asked if this is so.

I'm quite skeptical of this front/back combo; because, this Cobb has not been seen with an American Beauty 350 (no frame) back.
Tim Cathey has shown that there apparently is a printing correlation between the DRUM and AB 350 cards (in the 350/460 series).
Tim's thread......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125926

If Tim's observation is valid, and I think it has a lot of merit, then this Cobb most likely was never printed with a DRUM back.

OK guys, let's see if we have a "rule breaker" with this T206....has anyone here ever seen (or have) this Cobb with a DRUM back ?


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/batoffshouldercobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



TED Z

[gnaz01]

I think there might be one on eBay right now that someone found in their great grand daddy's attic and it is in perfect shape!!! :D:D

[Abravefan11]

Hi Ted - Thanks for revisiting this topic.

In the thread you linked to in your intial post I mentioned the five 350/460 players that had been confirmed with an American Beauty 350 No Frame that had yet to surface with a Drum. They were:

Conroy
Doolan (Batting)
Downey (Batting)
Mullin (w/Bat)
Stahl (Glove Shows)

Since that post as you and I have discussed Doolan and Downey have both surfaced with a Drum back. Maybe someone has seen one of the remaining three.

[tedzan]

Tim

My records indicate that the following 350/460 subjects appear to be AB 350 No-Prints....does this list agree with yours ?

Ames (hands over head)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Jennings (one hand)
Joss (pitching)
Lajoie (bat)
Leach (bending over)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Snodgrass (catching)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


I feel quite confident that these 19 cards are AB 350 No Prints. Since this AB 350 back is not that tough. We should have
certainly seen all of them by now.

Therefore, is it fair to predict that these 19 cards will NOT be found with DRUM backs ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

As requested, listed here are the confirmed DRUM cards from the 350/460 series.

350/460 subjects..........41 cards

Baker
Bender (no trees)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Crawford (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McQuillan (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nicholls (bat).................(has no 460 cards)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


The Cobb (bat off shoulder) with a DRUM back is not included, due to it's uncertainty.

Still waiting for some one to confirm this Cobb/DRUM combo.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Tim

My records indicate that the following 350/460 subjects appear to be AB 350 No-Prints....does this list agree with yours ?



Sorry it took me so long to answer you but I've been out of town.

Our lists are very close with the differences being:

Klienow - Boston Catching and Heinie Berger

They are on your confirmed list and on my No Print list.

Both cards have been reported but I have never seen the card, a scan, an auction, a pop report, and most importantly an AB 350 No Frame companion card. The two sources that reported these cards are highly respected individuals so I leave open the possibility that one of these cards could surface, but for the time being I am admittedly skeptical.

My 350-460 Drum records show:

40 - Confirmed
3 - Possible Unconfirmed
24 - No Prints

I use a different cataloging system than most so the number of 350-460 players (67) will total more than most other lists.

[tedzan]

Tim

1st....I don't know how Berger sneaked into my DRUM list. It was a listing mistake on my part and I have deleted it.

As for Kleinow / DRUM, the source for this card goes back to Bill Heitman. Which precedes the time period (circa 1999) when T206's were
being professionally "re-fronted" (or re-backed). Otherwise, I would be skeptical of this card as having been a DRUM that was re-fronted.

2nd....I'm curious as to your......
"I use a different cataloging system than most so the number of 350-460 players (67) will total more than most other lists."

My SOVEREIGN set indicates that 66 subjects were the design intent to be 350/460 series cards (by virtue of their apple-green backs).
Which subject is your 67th card ?

Thanks,

TED Z

[DixieBaseball]

How about a Cobb with a Red Sun Back ? :D

[Abravefan11]

2nd....I'm curious as to your......
"I use a different cataloging system than most so the number of 350-460 players (67) will total more than most other lists."

My SOVEREIGN set indicates that 66 subjects were the design intent to be 350/460 series cards (by virtue of their apple-green backs).
Which subject is your 67th card ?

Thanks,

TED Z

The card in question is Frank Smith - Chicago & Boston.

After looking closely at the distribution of the 350-460 and 460 Only groups it's my opinion that this card belongs on the 350-460 list even though it can only be found with a 460 series back. The Frank Smith cards (Chicago Amer. and Chicago & Boston) follow the 350-460 distribution path but the team change designation did not happen until the transition to the 460 series. This explains the absence of the F. Smith - Chicago & Boston from the Sovereign 350 Apple Green and Sovereign 460 set. The Sovereign 460 set is comprised of 46 cards that are all of the true 460 Only cards IMO.

I think these subtle nuances are what help us to understand the distribution path of this complicated set.

Let me know if this makes sense and if I need to clarify anything.

[tedzan]

Tim

I'm reprising this information regarding the Sovereign "apple-green" effect for those reading this; and, want to know what we are referring to.

Four examples of the 66 cards printed with apple-green backs.
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/asovbrowjohnslajcyoung.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bsovbrowjohnslajcyoung.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
Green back example of 150, 350 and 460 series cards



The following 66 cards have SOVEREIGN 350 backs that were printed "apple green". It appears evident that these 66 subjects were designated to
be extended into the 460 series (hence 350/460 subjects).

Of the 66, these 3 subjects (from 350 series) were not printed with any of the 460 series backs. Possibly, since their Major League careers ended
at that time (in 1910) when the start of the 460 series backs were being printed.

Joe Doyle
Nicholls (bat))
Rhoades (arm extended)

63 subjects (from 350 series) that were printed with 460 series backs

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (catching NY) >>>>>>>>> "Boston" caption in 460 series (traded May 26, 1910)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Frank Smith (Chicago) >>>>>>>>> "Chicago & Boston" caption in 460 series (traded Aug 9, 1910)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Tim

Indeed, there are only 46 cards in the 460-only series of my SOVEREIGN set.

But, I don't understand why you are accounting for Smith twice ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Tim

Indeed, there are only 46 cards in the 460-only series of my SOVEREIGN set.

But, I don't understand why you are accounting for Smith twice ?


TED Z

My preference is to keep Kleinow Boston Catching and New York Catching as well as Frank Smith Chicago and Chicago & Boston separate on my lists so I can better follow which cards were included or excluded from each back printing. This has helped me gain a better understanding of when changes were made as well as grouping print runs of certain backs, etc. It's just a personal preference and I can understand if someone groups the cards differently.

[Abravefan11]

Ted,

A correction to my numbers, I left off a No Print on my previous post:

Drum 350-460 Group

40 - Confirmed
3 - Possible Unconfirmed
25 - No Prints

This is a total of 68 which includes both Kleinow and Smith variations.

If you count the Smith and Kleinow as one each the numbers would be:

40 - Confirmed
3 - Possible Unconfirmed
23 - No Prints

Total of 66

[tedzan]

Tim

According to my data, the following lists the 350/460 subjects that have been confirmed with the DRUM back.
My tally is 41 cards and your's is 40. Besides Kleinow, where do we differ ?

Baker
Bender (no trees)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Crawford (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McQuillan (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nicholls (bat).................(has no 460 cards)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Kleinow is the only card on your list that is not on mine.

[tedzan]

One last go around....seeking a Cobb (bat off shoulder) with a DRUM back.

Anyone out there have one, or have seen this T206 front/back combo ?


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/batoffshouldercobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



TED Z