Announcing "Collectors Forensics Register" - Revolutionizing the Hobby

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Hello Net54 Members,

Collectors Forensics Register (http://www.cfreg.com) is a newly created service designed specifically for the graded card hobbyist. CFR combines science with technology and applies it to the graded, encapsulated sports card to capture its forensic "microscopic expression" for permanent and public record.

Our intention is to create numerous benefits within the hobby / industry as the natural byproduct from this service. Consider the following:

Sellers with forensic registrations of their cards will have a decided advantage over sellers without registrations
Buyers of forensically registered cards will have direct forensics of the card to view on the web prior to purchase
Any aspect of the card (name, grading company, grading serial number, card manufacturer, etc.) can be "Googled" to see if a registration exists
The forensic registrations (pictures & videos) can be accessed anywhere on any computer, iphone or other smart phone
The registrations will deter those who may contemplate fraud, as it may be forensically uncovered, if registered by a subsequent owner
Fraud will also be deterred, as all registrations will be sent to their respective grading companies as a friendly service
Those selling cards on Internet auction services can simply post the link to the card’s web page for potential buyers to view
Grading companies will begin to converge on industry standards, now that their product may land literally “under the microscope”
The introduction of these forensic registrations will very likely create an implicit self-regulation of the hobby.


CFR wanted take this opportunity to announce itself on this bulletin board and avail itself to its members, as the Net54 community is a long established and respected one.

Important note: We are not a grading company, nor do we take a position on the quality or accuracy of the awarded grades of cards that are submitted for registration. However, our mission is to record a "point-in-time" forensic snapshot of all cards submitted for public availability on the Internet. Grading quality, accuracy and potential fraud will be exposed as a natural byproduct of the registration process as it serves the hobby's most educated judges -- the hobbyists themselves.

For more information, please feel free to visit our web site at:

www.CFReg.com (http://www.cfreg.com). You may also contact us from our web site or e-mail us directly at info@cfreg.com

Thanks to all board members for your time and a special thanks to Leon for opening the door to CFR as we begin our journey !

Collectors Forensics Register Management Team

http://www.cfreg.com/board_ad.jpg (http://www.cfreg.com)

[Wite3]

Really?

[Jim VB]

Really?


I'm waiting for CFR:New York.

[Matthew H]

This is exactly what the hobby needed. :rolleyes:

[canjond]

Because of the money involved with registry collectors, I certainly can understand why a service like this is being offered. But for all of the years we've joked about slabbing the slabs, guess that time has come... sorta of.

[FrankWakefield]

Thank you Jon, for your good memory. I caught a bit of grief over the concept of slabbing a slab, when I mentioned it years ago... I don't doubt they'll make a go of it. Difficult for me to believe it, though.

[canjond]

That was you, wasn't it Frank! :)

[Anthony S.]

I have a 1909 Obak Chick Gandil that has lived under a cloud of suspicion for an unsolved murder since 1953. It will be good to finally know one way or the other.

[ethicsprof]

as jon says, 'sorta of'

best,
barry

[Griffins]

Slabbing the slabs is nothing new- GAI graded this PSA slab years ago
http://photos.imageevent.com/griffins/distribution/large/71garvey.jpeg

[Bosox Blair]

Wow - difficult to fomulate a response to this as I'm not fluent enough in bafflegab.

Here's a free tip to this new business - your market is not longtime knowledgable collectors, as one finds on Net54. It is the rich and clueless. It is someone who is not afraid to spend a ton on an item he knows nothing about, and therefore requires a third-party opinion along with some kind of further assurance on top of that (for some additional price not being spent on the actual collectibles).

Sorry to be a cynic, but I predict the revolution will be short and quelled without bloodshed.

Cheers,
Blair

[Kawika]

The OP is quite earnest and has obviously put a good deal of effort into creating a website etc. I have looked his site over and tried to make heads or tails of what exactly is to be gained by having one's cards forensically examined but I'm drawing a blank. All I can conclude is that this is a totally ludicrous business plan (but I am just a dumb land surveyor so what do I know?). I am afraid, around here anyway, that CFR will wind up on the Net54 scrapheap along with Adam, Peter and Marshall, the Cobb Bros. T206 Wagner and the Joe Jackson T202, Dorskind vs. Archive, Chicago bashing, carbon dating and chicken fighting and ad infinitum. You can't make this stuff up and that's why my dial is always tuned to FiveFour.

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[barrysloate]

Sometimes less is better than more. Hey, it's just baseball cards.

[calvindog]

I think before we try to digest this new hobby watchdog we give the Collector's Trade Association of America the time it needs to deliver that "appropriate and powerful response" to that "small group" of pesky naysayers in our hobby. If I recall correctly, Marshall is three months into his one year "committed term" as "executive director." I don't know about you guys but I've seen a whirlwind of activity thus far; I can't wait to see what the next nine months holds for the CTA.

[timzcardz]

Don't you just love it when someone's first, and possibly only post in a forum is to advertise?

May I respectfully request that Leon hit them up for banner ad, or give them the boot for spamming?

[barrysloate]

Given the Net54 response to this announcement, it will almost surely be their last post here. I'm sure they will have people use the service, but this board is not their target audience.

[Robextend]

I have a 1909 Obak Chick Gandil that has lived under a cloud of suspicion for an unsolved murder since 1953. It will be good to finally know one way or the other.

The jig is up...it was a terrible jig.

[barrysloate]

The jig is up...it was a terrible jig.

"The Limousine" episode.:)

[Leon]

Don't you just love it when someone's first, and possibly only post in a forum is to advertise?

May I respectfully request that Leon hit them up for banner ad, or give them the boot for spamming?

When the OP, Lloyd, and I spoke yesterday he told me what he planned and I looked at the site. I told him just like with most hobby business situations that he could post once about it on the board, and then after that there were advertising opportunities. I told him about WIWAG and about GAI (the first video I saw) and their debacles. I told him about the coin counterpart CAC and what it did. I went onto say we have a fairly well heeled audience, in some respects, but that even someone on a $50 budget gets the same respect as those with higher budgets. He hadn't heard about GAI problems or WIWAG or CAC. I was sort of saying to myself "myself- huh, if I were doing that venture I might have done a bit more research." At any rate I wished him best and here we have the "Industry REVOLUTION".....well, sort of. My opinion is that this service sort of tells us what we already know. But hey, maybe I don't know what I need to....or something like that.

[Robextend]

"The Limousine" episode.:)

One of my all time favs Barry! You don't look like a Murphy.

[timzcardz]

When the OP, Lloyd, and I spoke yesterday he told me what he planned and I looked at the site. I told him just like with most hobby business situations that he could post once about it on the board, and then after that there were advertising opportunities. I told him about WIWAG and about GAI (the first video I saw) and their debacles. I told him about the coin counterpart CAC and what it did. I went onto say we have a fairly well heeled audience, in some respects, but that even someone on a $50 budget gets the same respect as those with higher budgets. He hadn't heard about GAI problems or WIWAG or CAC. I was sort of saying to myself "myself- huh, if I were doing that venture I might have done a bit more research." At any rate I wished him best and here we have the "Industry REVOLUTION".....well, sort of. My opinion is that this service sort of tells us what we already know. But hey, maybe I don't know what I need to....or something like that.

Leon, Fair enough. Thanks for the explanantion.

[steve B]

Some of that stuff will be interesting for modern cards. Especially the ones that were overproduced. It will be interesting to see if any of the odd differences get recognition, or if some get declared as fake. Some of the little differences are actually somewhat challenging to find.

91 topps for instance has 3 different back inks, one does not react to the blacklight, another lights up brightly, and the third looks like a very dark red. The last one is actually a lot tougher than the others. The fronts also have 2 diferent clear coats.....

I've thought that a premium grading service that gave a detailed explanation of the grade could work, but it would be tough going in a market that's a bit saturated.

Steve B

[barrysloate]

One of my all time favs Barry! You don't look like a Murphy.

And you don't look like an O'Brien.;)

[Orioles1954]

I wish them all the best in their venture. However, I fail to see how this is a necessity in the hobby.

[oldjudge]

What a great franchise, assuming all the llama ranches were taken

[dstraate]

Whew. Tough crowd. He might just buy a banner ad next time :)

[doug.goodman]

...that the clocks fell back an hour in most of the country this past weekend, but evidently I was wrong, they seem to have jumped forward to April Fool's Day.

[uffda51]

I have a llama ranch, which I inherited from my grandfather, but I'm not sure if my llamas are genuine. Do they come with Uzit backs?:confused::rolleyes:

[barrysloate]

Well this has been a tough crowd, and this is probably not the response you were expecting. But I have to say I don't understand what this service provides. I understand you don't grade cards, but according to your promo your company's goal is to deter fraud. But how? If I submit a card that was doctored, are you saying you will spot that alteration every time using forensic techniques? And how does that differ from the already established grading companies- don't they authenticate as well as grade cards? Are you saying you will catch the mistakes they missed? I'm sure you have put a great deal of thought into this service but you lost me at "Hello Net54 Members."

[Anthony S.]

What a great franchise, assuming all the llama ranches were taken

My buddy, Al Paca, runs a llama ranch.

[barrysloate]

My buddy, Al Paca, runs a llama ranch.

I know Al...he's a real lamb in sheep's clothing.

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Well this has been a tough crowd, and this is probably not the response you were expecting. But I have to say I don't understand what this service provides. I understand you don't grade cards, but according to your promo your company's goal is to deter fraud. But how? If I submit a card that was doctored, are you saying you will spot that alteration every time using forensic techniques? And how does that differ from the already established grading companies- don't they authenticate as well as grade cards? Are you saying you will catch the mistakes they missed? I'm sure you have put a great deal of thought into this service but you lost me at "Hello Net54 Members."

Thanks for the inquiry, Barry. Let me address your post in two parts. First, the answer is no, we are not trying to identify mistakes made by the grading companies or potential fraud while recording the forensic video. Once the cards are graded and encapsulated, we consider them a single product, each containing multiple components (slab, card, informational flip and inserts in some productions), each one of these components containing its own specific forensic properties. Those properties include weld points, trapped air, fibers, dings, scratches, ink splashes, smears, etc.

While recording the forensic video, these microscopic properties are put into the forensic record. I believe that everyone will agree that the premise of the encapsulated card is that it should never be the subject of physical change. Therefore, when performing the forensic registration of the graded card, the only thing that we care about are the forensic properties of the entire production.

We are dispassionate toward which grading company, quality or accuracy. However, once the forensic record is made public, it is subject to close scrutiny by potential buyers, interested parties or even trading companies. Herein lies the implicit fraud deterrent and quality control. If you a perpetrator of fraud, the downstream effect of the forensic registration is your potential implication or least making you think twice about engaging in fraud again.

If you are a grading company, the least desired effect from a public relations standpoint, is to have your graded product identified as a counterfeit or altered card. Such a finding may be exposed once it is registered and entered into public record. It will also call into question potentially inaccurately awarded grades, hence we expect that the grading bar will be raised considerably, since the forensics are now publicly available.

Secondly, the service is intended to do for hobbyists, what Carfax has done for auto buyers / sellers -- put everything about the product "above board". When looking at two used cars side-by-side, all things being equal, the one with the exposed history gets the sale. Both buyer and seller benefit. It will be a great enabler for card dealers and auction sellers.

Thanks for your inquiry, we hope that this helped.

[barrysloate]

Thanks for getting back, and good luck with the business. That helped a bit.

[Robextend]

I dunno, personally I don't see much use for this service. If I didn't trust the grading company, I wouldn't have them grade my cards in the first place. This seems like overkill, just my two cents.

[T206Collector]

I dunno, personally I don't see much use for this service. If I didn't trust the grading company, I wouldn't have them grade my cards in the first place. This seems like overkill, just my two cents.

Exactly -- SGC currently provides me with all the peace of mind that I need regarding my collectible cardboard.

[Orioles1954]

Secondly, the service is intended to do for hobbyists, what Carfax has done for auto buyers / sellers -- put everything about the product "above board". When looking at two used cars side-by-side, all things being equal, the one with the exposed history gets the sale.

If you buy a lemon of a car that could be the difference between life and death. For that reason, a service like Carfax is a nice bonus. However, for sports cards, I will continue to ask for big scans and submit to SGC.

[RobertGT]

This whole enterprise strikes me as hilarious joke that would make a great SNL parody or a late-night infomerical that comes on after the Ronco guy with a new state-of-the-art blender. You can almost cue the dialogue now:

"...the downstream effect of the forensic registration is your potential implication or least making you think twice about engaging in fraud again."

Then the whole crowd of audience members chanting "OOOOOH, AAHHH" while clutching their GAI 7.5 90 Topps Frank Thomas RCs.

If you act now, we'll throw in 2 free fiber analyses.

[tinkereversandme]

I think the comparison to the Carfax is simply amusing. In one case, I have to get to work in something I hope is safe and viable and is part of every day life and I hope what I use to create a decision upon purchasing the item shows that I won't be taken. In this case, it's merely further assurance of a purchase of a baseball card and...to be honest with you, my head hurts from reading this and I really don't understand a need for it. Good luck however.

I'm not your target audience to begin with. I have fifty or so graded cards (and growing) and I think SGC does a wonderful job.

Bob

[D. Bergin]

I don't know. It seems whoever started this thought it out pretty well, came up with a decent plan, spent quite a bit of money and actually pushed out a pretty decent looking website.

That said, I hate the jump on the bandwagon, but what next? You will basically pay to have your cards/memorabilia graded twice. I also have a hard time believing it's going to prevent fraud, as the fraudsters, along with most other people, are not going to be sending their cards in for a CarFax report to be written up on it.

What it might do is accelerate arguments about some higher grade, more important cards in the hobby, if this does ever catch on.

I can just see it now. Somebody starts a thread to tell us PSA/Beckett/SGC sucks, because under ultra-intense UV negative light magnified at 50 times, you can most obviously see a crease starting to form inside the top left corner of this T206 Ty Cobb PSA 7. This is obviously a PSA 6 and a multiple thousand dollar mistake. What can I do to be reimbursed by PSA/Beckett/SGC?

:D

[RobertGT]

It's very difficult to discern how this service will provide any layer of additional protection or security not already provided by the TPG companies. If I am reading the company's mission statement correctly, and it's possible I'm not as it pretty vague, the service provided is basically a microscopic video of the card and its properties inside the holder. Also recorded is the flip/grade/company etc. The company takes no position on the authenticity of the card or whether it appears the holder has been tampered with.

So what's to stop "Fraudster A" from cracking a PSA 8 holder, replacing it with an inferior copy of the same card, resealing it inside the PSA 8 holder and then sending it off to this service to be registered forensically? The company says it doesn't evaluate the cards for tampering - just what the fibers, etc. look like in a holder.

So this company then records/registers the properties of a fraudulent PSA 8 card with let's say an EX card inside. Everything appears to be on the up-and-up, according to the registry. Doesn't this compound the problem by adding a false layer of security?

Can someone explain how this helps anyone?

[oldjudge]

Excuse my negativity, but this is a horrible business model. As I understand the product, all it does is effectively verify that a slabbed card has not been tampered with. This is only an issue with high dollar cards where it may be worth it for some low life to break open a slab and replace the original card with a lower grade copy, or a forgery. However, this service could be more cheaply provided by the grading companies by offering to scan the cards(when they grade them), for some minimal fee, into a permanent data base. Since there is no extra shipping involved, and they are working on the card already, the grading companies can always beat this service on price. Even the llamas are laughing at this one.

[ChiefBenderForever]

It seems redundant to me, also what happens if someone drops a card and the case is cracked or gets all scratched up, plastic is not a fingerprint. The website does look dope but I just don't see anyone paying for this service but wish you the best of luck.

[barrysloate]

Generally when we have a thread about a product or service, or some hobby event that elicits opinions from the board, we find ourselves split for and against. I don't recall any discussion- not even one about the grading services- that has been so universally panned by everyone. If I were about to launch this business I would have some serious concerns at this moment.

There very well might be an audience for this, perhaps as cited earlier newbies who have a lot of money to spend but have heard too many horror stories about fraud. But I think nearly everyone on this board collects because they have fun doing so. For whatever benefits are offered here, this concept certainly sucks all the fun out of collecting.

[illini805]

I don't know. It seems whoever started this thought it out pretty well, came up with a decent plan, spent quite a bit of money and actually pushed out a pretty decent looking website.

That said, I hate the jump on the bandwagon, but what next? You will basically pay to have your cards/memorabilia graded twice. I also have a hard time believing it's going to prevent fraud, as the fraudsters, along with most other people, are not going to be sending their cards in for a CarFax report to be written up on it.

What it might do is accelerate arguments about some higher grade, more important cards in the hobby, if this does ever catch on.

I can just see it now. Somebody starts a thread to tell us PSA/Beckett/SGC sucks, because under ultra-intense UV negative light magnified at 50 times, you can most obviously see a crease starting to form inside the top left corner of this T206 Ty Cobb PSA 7. This is obviously a PSA 6 and a multiple thousand dollar mistake. What can I do to be reimbursed by PSA/Beckett/SGC?

:D

I think the site was probably done in a couple hours. It's not a very professional looking site in my opinion.

[Orioles1954]

I think the site was probably done in a couple hours. It's not a very professional looking site in my opinion.

I don't agree with that sentiment. I think the site looks clean and user friendly. I also think they have approached this idea with a good deal of professionalism. However, I wonder if they focus tested this concept in some way?

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Generally when we have a thread about a product or service, or some hobby event that elicits opinions from the board, we find ourselves split for and against. I don't recall any discussion- not even one about the grading services- that has been so universally panned by everyone. If I were about to launch this business I would have some serious concerns at this moment.

There very well might be an audience for this, perhaps as cited earlier newbies who have a lot of money to spend but have heard too many horror stories about fraud. But I think nearly everyone on this board collects because they have fun doing so. For whatever benefits are offered here, this concept certainly sucks all the fun out of collecting.

Thanks for your post, Barry... stated very eloquently. You summed everything up very nicely. When looking at this service in the context of the fun and / or the love of hobby, we can certainly understand why this would be the initial reaction of hobby purists and we respect that.

It will take a little time for the service to express its benefits to the hobby at large, vis-a-vis fraud deterrence and grading standard improvement. Our team understood this fact in formulating the plan. But it will happen in the natural course of its growth and acceptance.

We thank you for your time and we wish all of you the best of luck (and fun) in the hobby. If you have any questions, please feel free to send us a message or an e-mail any time.

[glchen]

I think this is overkill. Grading cards is already expensive enough, and I don't think there's enough value add here to justify the costs (unless the card is extremely valuable). There won't be enough of a market for it. I think they should either try to become a TPG or partner w/ a TPG like JSA, so that these extra services are offered when the cards are first submitted.

Not sure what the benefits of UV Blacklight capture are for modern cards (like they have in the ad). I thought that was just for vintage card to determine how old the paper stock is.

[Exhibitman]

I imagine that the genesis of the business was something like this:

Marshall: This year we are going to grab the bull by the BALLS and stop all the negative publicity about card collecting in its track.
Greg Marmalard: What do you intend to do sir? the third party graders are already on probation.
Marshall: They are?
Greg: Yes, sir.
Marshall: Oh. Then as of this moment, they're on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION!
Greg: Double Secret Probation, Sir?
Marshall: There is a little-known codicil in the Collector's Trade Association of America constitution which gives the executive director unlimited power to preserve order in time of card collecting emergency. Find me a way to forensically check up on the third party graders. Put Niedermeyer on it. He's a sneaky little ****, just like you, right? [Greg nods] The time has come for someone to put their foot down. And that foot is me.

[scgaynor]

I don't see much of a need for this service either, but at least the guy had a business idea and he ran with it. Right now this country needs more small business people with initiative. If there is a need, he will do well. If not, then he can try something else. I guess he thinks that there is a need and is trying to fill it. It is not exactly the same, but I am reminded of this from The Onion.

http://tinyurl.com/2fm9ltb

[RobertGT]

Pricing also is way out of whack. For me to send bulk cards to PSA, which tells me whether it's authentic, assigns a grade and encapsulates the card, it costs $4.25 per card.

For me to get a glorified home video of a previously encapsulated card from someone with a camera from Best Buy, it costs a minimum of $9 per card.

[Wite3]

Is any of this proprietary? Camera, blacklights, and zooming are nothing new. What would keep PSA or SGC from adding this to their service for half your price (and if they do, I want a cut!! It was my idea to add it!! :D). I would say that people trust these well established companies far more than your new start up.

How about this scenario. Buy one of your wonderfully secure PSA 9 cards. Get it home, get rid of sticker, crack the slab, add my not so wonderful PSA 7 and resell without your little sticker. I do not care how secure you think it is, without that little sticker and number on the slab, it means nothing. The only thing that would happen is my buyer would then submit it to you and cry foul. But by then I am long gone...(by the way...people know me here and know I would never do this but this is not something way out of bounds)...

One more thing...your Comparative Arbitration idea is misguided...you are essentially charging people a small fee to see if you made a mistake or it was tampered with. If you services are so great...why would you even need this and for a fee no less.

So again...I say...

Really?

Joshua

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Is any of this proprietary? Camera, blacklights, and zooming are nothing new. What would keep PSA or SGC from adding this to their service for half your price (and if they do, I want a cut!! It was my idea to add it!! :D). I would say that people trust these well established companies far more than your new start up.

How about this scenario. Buy one of your wonderfully secure PSA 9 cards. Get it home, get rid of sticker, crack the slab, add my not so wonderful PSA 7 and resell without your little sticker. I do not care how secure you think it is, without that little sticker and number on the slab, it means nothing. The only thing that would happen is my buyer would then submit it to you and cry foul. But by then I am long gone...(by the way...people know me here and know I would never do this but this is not something way out of bounds)...

One more thing...your Comparative Arbitration idea is misguided...you are essentially charging people a small fee to see if you made a mistake or it was tampered with. If you services are so great...why would you even need this and for a fee no less.

So again...I say...

Really?

Joshua

The hologram that is applied to the capsule when the card is registered has the web page printed on it, so it is really applied more as a matter of convenience to show that it is registered and for quick reference.

All that any potential card purchaser needs to do is go to the cfreg.com web site and search for the grading company's assigned serial number, which is printed right on the informational flip. If the card is found as registered, you just caught perpetrator in the act and saved yourself some grief.

If you purchased the card first, then suspected fraud, you could send it to us for a comparative arbitration which would compare the suspect card to the one that was originally registered. You would receive a report which would conclude that the card was a different card that what was registered and you would have a case to recoup your loss with forensic evidence to back it up.

Which mistake are you referring to Joshua? We are not making any judgements in the process of registering the card, we're just recording its forensic properties.

As we said yesterday. this is a service that will take time to be learned and accepted. The holographic label is a convenience - ANY GRADED CARD that you are purchasing should be searched for on the cfreg.com site first as a regular practice. Not checking would be like buying a dozen eggs and not checking if any were broken. It really just comes down to a culture of common sense. We are giving the hobby a reference tool to use that's free... why not leverage it?

So the answer is... yes, really :-)

[Rich Klein]

I remember in the late 1980's or early 90's when a hobby "hanger-on" came into the shop I was managing at that time and talked about his concept about authenticating the autograph immediately after it was signed at a card show. His idea was to have the table next to the player as he was signing and then authenticate that the signature was signed at the show,.....
Remember this is 1988-89-90 and we at that time all thought that idea was ludicrous, remember how many shows there were and how many players signed (and not all were superstars by any means). Well flash forward 20 years and the concept of having your show signed autograph authenticated on the spot is a normal course of doing business now.
So, without making any comments on this man's business, which I did not study, I will say that many times ideas which sound silly to us today are commonplace tomorrow.

Regards
Rich

[buymycards]

Hi, I am starting a new service. After your cards are graded, and after they have been sent to the new CFR company, send your cards to me and I will certify that the certifications are certified. I will then send the cards to another company (my brother in law), that will certify that I have certified the previous certifications. All certifications will be accompanied by a Certification of Certification letter, and a photo of my brother in law and I performing the certifications. (Not sure yet if we will be clothed or naked). We will also use duct tape to seal the card to prevent tampering. (Thanks, Red Green!).


Rick

[quinnsryche]

Hi, I am starting a new service. After your cards are graded, and after they have been sent to the new CFR company, send your cards to me and I will certify that the certifications are certified. I will then send the cards to another company (my brother in law), that will certify that I have certified the previous certifications. All certifications will be accompanied by a Certification of Certification letter, and a photo of my brother in law and I performing the certifications. (Not sure yet if we will be clothed or naked). We will also use duct tape to seal the card to prevent tampering. (Thanks, Red Green!).


Rick
That's the funniest post I've seen in quite some time. If I was drinking while reading, I would be cleaning my screen right now. Certification of Certification letter, hysterical!:D:D:D

[RichardSimon]

Hi, I am starting a new service. After your cards are graded, and after they have been sent to the new CFR company, send your cards to me and I will certify that the certifications are certified. I will then send the cards to another company (my brother in law), that will certify that I have certified the previous certifications. All certifications will be accompanied by a Certification of Certification letter, and a photo of my brother in law and I performing the certifications. (Not sure yet if we will be clothed or naked). We will also use duct tape to seal the card to prevent tampering. (Thanks, Red Green!).


Rick
:o:):(:confused::confused::p;):D:rolleyes::eek:

[Ladder7]

SNIP...as we said yesterday.

The anonymity is concerning. May have missed it, I dont see a signature on any of their posts. Okay, I give up who is this guy? (these people)

Yours idea may have a place in our shady hobby, though certainly not with my beaters. Again, why so aloof? Steve, Boston

[Exhibitman]

Hi, I am starting a new service. After your cards are graded, and after they have been sent to the new CFR company, send your cards to me and I will certify that the certifications are certified. I will then send the cards to another company (my brother in law), that will certify that I have certified the previous certifications. All certifications will be accompanied by a Certification of Certification letter, and a photo of my brother in law and I performing the certifications. (Not sure yet if we will be clothed or naked). We will also use duct tape to seal the card to prevent tampering. (Thanks, Red Green!).


Rick

Yeah! And let's get some new investors to pay into the system. We can use their money to pay the existing investors. I figure we can offer 20% interest in 30 days, no problemo. That should really make it fly!

[Anthony S.]

The anonymity is concerning. May have missed it, I dont see a signature on any of their posts. Okay, I give up who is this guy? (these people)

Yours idea may have a place in our shady hobby, though certainly not with my beaters. Again, why so aloof? Steve, Boston

Steve, they're so damned good, forensics is their middle name.

[uffda51]

If, for example, three guys decided to write a book on The Photographic Baseball Cards of Goodwin & Company, I would be a lot more likely to purchase the book sight unseen if their names were on the book jacket, and I recognized the names as credible voices on the topic. I'm just saying.

[oldjudge]

Writing a hardcover, full color, baseball card book about players no one ever heard of----now there's a dumb business model!

[steve B]

I can see some long term benefit, but I'm not sure this is the best way to go about it.

For a long time I've had misgivings about encapsulating cards. Some may be ok long term because the paper isn't particularly acidic, like T206s. Other cards like most anything from the 50's may be degraded by being encapsulated. some of the holders do breathe a bit, but I don't know if the holders breathe enough. The acid gets retained, and accelerates the process of the cardboard degrading. MAYBE. Having a detailed record of a cards exact condition at a particular time could be interesting several years from now.

And just maybe for very expensive cards it might be comforting to a collector/investor with money but little experience to know that the cards is the same at the time of purchase as it was when it was recorded. Grading itself was pretty controversial when it was new, but now it's accepted and nearly required for some cards. (Just as expertising certificates are for some stamps)

To return to a bit of levity, a quick story about checking eggs.

Customer 1 (me) checking eggs for cracks
customer 2 "Should you be touching the eggs like that?"
Customer 1 Lady, it came out of a chickens backside. My fingers shouldn't be a concern.
Customer2 Oh.........


Steve B

[judsonhamlin]

Another service that I can ignore with impunity...

[jmk59]

I don't know about the exact details of the business set-up, but I think I do see some merit in the idea.

I've been on these boards a long time, and I can't imagine how many times I've seen people trying to figure out the history of a card in an auction. Some eagle-eyed auction browser will spot a card and speculate that it may or may not be the same card that used to be in this or that holder with this or that different grade and sold for $X in some past auction. It is very common for people to start trying to backtrack a particular card and confirm something about previous grading or other history. Ususally they are trying to spot little aritifacts on the card - slight stains, tiny paper pulls, etc - and match them up to blurry scans and things like that.

I've also seen it suggested many times that grading companies scan cards as they come in to help keep registries straight as cards are cracked and resubmitted, expose fraud if someone wants to do their own reholdering, identify alterations, etc. It's always been agreed that it doesn't seem feasible for the graders to do that.

So I think it could be useful to have an online archive of graded cards with dates, companies, grades, serial numbers and very detailed images. One spot where you could try to find an image and confirmed grade/company for many cards. I would bet I see it referenced on this board eventually as cards are logged and posted and someone here recognizes the same card in different clothing in a different auction.

I also think it could be a valuable link for ebay sellers that don't have the time or equipment to post detailed 50x scans.

As to the business model, pricing, target audiences, etc, I don't know how well that will go. But I definitely see some usefulness in the overall idea.

Joann

[vintagecpa]

Where was this company about 3 years ago during the 1930 Goudey Ruth debacle?

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

I don't know about the exact details of the business set-up, but I think I do see some merit in the idea.

I've been on these boards a long time, and I can't imagine how many times I've seen people trying to figure out the history of a card in an auction. Some eagle-eyed auction browser will spot a card and speculate that it may or may not be the same card that used to be in this or that holder with this or that different grade and sold for $X in some past auction. It is very common for people to start trying to backtrack a particular card and confirm something about previous grading or other history. Ususally they are trying to spot little aritifacts on the card - slight stains, tiny paper pulls, etc - and match them up to blurry scans and things like that.

I've also seen it suggested many times that grading companies scan cards as they come in to help keep registries straight as cards are cracked and resubmitted, expose fraud if someone wants to do their own reholdering, identify alterations, etc. It's always been agreed that it doesn't seem feasible for the graders to do that.

So I think it could be useful to have an online archive of graded cards with dates, companies, grades, serial numbers and very detailed images. One spot where you could try to find an image and confirmed grade/company for many cards. I would bet I see it referenced on this board eventually as cards are logged and posted and someone here recognizes the same card in different clothing in a different auction.

I also think it could be a valuable link for ebay sellers that don't have the time or equipment to post detailed 50x scans.

As to the business model, pricing, target audiences, etc, I don't know how well that will go. But I definitely see some usefulness in the overall idea.

Joann

Thanks very much for the post Joann. A little history on our model... it is the product of about eight month's worth of enumerating the issues that we felt were effecting the hobby in a less than positive manner. We then applied solutions to each issue. In some cases one solution addressed several issues and in other cases several solutions were required to correct one issue.

We drew from our experiences of over 100 years, collectively, in the hobby and have also leveraged our professional backgrounds in Regulatory Technology and Enforcement (on Wall Street) and Memorabilia Sales / Authentication to deliver a service that would enable sellers while protecting buyers. We also felt that it would deter fraud while developing a self-governance through a single source with easily accessed forensic information. It is a new culture and a new paradigm, so we understand that it's something that will take a little time.

It's clear that you have been able to see the big picture Joann, and have looked through to the other side :-) This is vacuum that simply needs to be filled. To address your last statement about pricing, we offer "10 card" registration packages starting at $75 which includes free shipping and insurance back to the registrant. However, we are always open to suggestions and welcome your input.

[oldjudge]

Joann-What you are suggesting only works if all vintage cards are scanned into an accessable data base. This is not going to happen unless it is done at the grading company levels into a shared, and open, data base. As described, it will not happen at the level of this company. This service does not benefit the current owner of the card, it only benefits future owners, begging the question of why a current owner would pay the cost. The only one I see paying for this service is someone who has already doctored a card and wants it to achieve some sort of legitimacy by appearing in the data base. This whole business model is a non-starter unless these guys approach the grading companies and offer to be the universal data base for images of all cards that they grade. They could charge a minimal fee that the grading companies pass along and make their money from people who want to access their data base later.

[Matthew H]

Even if you figured out a way to make this service somehow useful to our hobby, I think you'll have a hard time getting people to pay $9 to essentially scan their cards.

[jmk59]

Jay - I definitely agree that it works better if the database is strongly populated. But it has to start somewhere, IMO. Might as well here as anywhere.

And I don't know how the business model will go from a pricing standpoint - only that I see a big-picture value to the idea. I haven't looked at it closely enough to even understand and comment, really, but I will say offhand that it is easier for me to identify value to non-owners (as someone said, future owners, hobby watchdogs, maybe sellers, etc) than to current owners and targeted submitters.

Still an interesting idea if it can work.

J

[Leon]

I am sort of neutral about it and mostly fall into the "do I really need it?" camp. That being said I am also a bit concerned about Lloyd (he is the original poster) claiming over 100 yrs experience (collectively) in the hobby and having never heard of WIWAG, Operation Bullpen, CAC or GAI's issues. I am sort of wondering what hobby the experience is in unless they have 100 guys with 1 yr of experience each. I always applaud thinking of new things and outside of the box so I applaud them for the undertaking and wish them luck. Time will tell. best regards

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't understand a company that touts their experience and doesn't tell you their NAMES.

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Joann-What you are suggesting only works if all vintage cards are scanned into an accessable data base. This is not going to happen unless it is done at the grading company levels into a shared, and open, data base. As described, it will not happen at the level of this company. This service does not benefit the current owner of the card, it only benefits future owners, begging the question of why a current owner would pay the cost. The only one I see paying for this service is someone who has already doctored a card and wants it to achieve some sort of legitimacy by appearing in the data base. This whole business model is a non-starter unless these guys approach the grading companies and offer to be the universal data base for images of all cards that they grade. They could charge a minimal fee that the grading companies pass along and make their money from people who want to access their data base later.

Thanks for the post Oldjudge. Your post consists of several unrelated thoughts, so we'll address them one at a time:

Scanned Database Entries - unfortunately information can not simply be scanned into a database. We do scan the graded cards to capture their image but entering the information is a G & A function (G & A is a business term standing for General and Administrative). We do that for all cards that are registered with us and post it to our web site for public access. This gives hobbyists the ability to search our web site by grading company, serial number, player name, card number etc. No need to involve the grading companies for that.

Current Owner Benefit - 2 parts to this one... 1) We've already established earlier in this thread in a response a couple of days ago that read "Thanks for your post, Barry... stated very eloquently. You summed everything up very nicely. When looking at this service in the context of the fun and / or the love of hobby, we can certainly understand why this [no interest in the service] would be the initial reaction of hobby purists and we respect that." 2) The very first point that we made in this thread (the first bullet in our opening statement read "Sellers with forensic registrations of their cards will have a decided advantage over sellers without registrations". In short, graded card sellers (current owners) have the greatest motivation to use the service to advantage themselves from those who haven't.

Doctored Card Submission - Wow, we had to read this one a few times. We're not sure why a perp would go to the time and expense of entering his doctored cards into the public record. The consensus is that he would either be very proud of his work to indict himself in such a manner or that he wants to get caught. His fraud will appear 50 times larger under the microscope.

[timzcardz]

Jay - I definitely agree that it works better if the database is strongly populated. But it has to start somewhere, IMO. Might as well here as anywhere.

J

That might not be entirely true.

Taking into consideration the failure rate of startup businesses, even in estabished market sectors, the viability of a new business type starting from scratch, as opposed to a new service being introduced by a financially established related business, seems questionable.

Will the company have the resources to survive until profitability is achieved?

If not, then all data is lost, along with the fees paid by individuals, unless an established company sees the viability and purchases the assets, that is, the data in the forms of images, etc., and carries it forward.

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Even if you figured out a way to make this service somehow useful to our hobby, I think you'll have a hard time getting people to pay $9 to essentially scan their cards.

Thanks for the post Matt. There is a lot more to the service than scanned cards. The scanning part of the registration is the bonus. The forensic video capture (4-6 minutes long) is the centerpiece of the service. Additional options include 50x corner photos and UV (blacklight) photos. Also, our price break for 10 cards is $75 including free shipping and insurance, so it's more like $6 per card. Feel free to visit our web site at www.cfreg.com (http://www.cfreg.com) for more detailed information.

[bcornell]

I usually decline to participate in revolutions, unless I can do it from my couch.

Please don't perform any forensics or autopsies on my collection. I've found the best deterrent to fraud is actually knowing what I'm buying.


Bill

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

I am sort of neutral about it and mostly fall into the "do I really need it?" camp. That being said I am also a bit concerned about Lloyd (he is the original poster) claiming over 100 yrs experience (collectively) in the hobby and having never heard of WIWAG, Operation Bullpen, CAC or GAI's issues. I am sort of wondering what hobby the experience is in unless they have 100 guys with 1 yr of experience each. I always applaud thinking of new things and outside of the box so I applaud them for the undertaking and wish them luck. Time will tell. best regards

Thanks for the post Leon. As we discussed the other day, fraud is fraud, no matter what flavor it comes in or what acronym that it's given (i.e. WIWAG). We record forensic properties of cards that are submitted to us for registration and facilitate their entry to the public record. Period. We take no position / make no judgement in grading company, quality or accuracy as stated previously. I'm sure that you understand why we can't come out and post about scandals. it's not our mission and nothing good can come from it. Apologies for the bluntness but this apparently needed to be clarified.

As for our experience in the hobby, the point was that we have been around a while and have seen a lot. We are simply responding to the issues as we best see fit. At the end of the day Leon, is providing an impartial forensic service and facilitating a central information register really congruent to the fact that the 1970 Donn Clendenon was my first baseball card ? :-)

[RobertGT]

I can see this service actually driving down the sale price of a graded card for several reasons:

- Most high-end graded card collectors are pretty picky about the condition/aesthetics of the TPG holder as well as the condition of the card itself. Attaching an ugly sticker to the reverse of the holder is a big turn-off, especially because it belongs to an anonymous start-up company that no one knows whether it will be around in one year from now.

- The company by its own admission will take no position on whether the card holder has been tampered with when they receive and evaluate it. It does nothing to eliminate fraud or detect bad holders, and perhaps may encourage scammers looking to add a layer of legitimacy to a fraudulent item. Service just takes a snapshot of whatever is submitted to them with no opinion whatsoever. It's laughable the service is touting fraud deterrence, when - as earlier posts indicate - the anonymous company officials are completely unaware of well-publicized scandals such as WIWAG, etc.

- Let's take a leap and say a few people use this service. I think most can agree its appeal is limited at best - perhaps for only some major high-end cards. So what about the rest of the mainstream collectors? When given a choice to buy a straight PSA 8 card that matches the rest of the cards in their set registry, or buy a PSA 8 card with some strange sticker on the back from an anonymous company that is only seen on 1 percent of all graded cards, which would they choose?

- For me, this is the equivalent of purchasing a 52 Topps Mantle RC in a PRO 8 holder.

[Anthony S.]

I don't understand a company that touts their experience and doesn't tell you their NAMES.

It is odd that they answer other questions in such great detail, but continue to ignore every request that they identify themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_FZVD5lsAw

[Peter_Spaeth]

Daltrey could sing, couldn't he.

Funny I was thinking of the same song. Who the *&^% are you?????

[BleedinBlue]

Thanks very much for the post Joann. A little history on our model... it is the product of about eight month's worth of enumerating the issues that we felt were effecting the hobby in a less than positive manner. We then applied solutions to each issue. In some cases one solution addressed several issues and in other cases several solutions were required to correct one issue.

I'm curious as to what issues you came up with in your eight months of enumerating and how this service addresses each of these issues. As far as I can tell you are only potentially solving one problem: has a holder been tampered with and a card replaced SINCE the card was scanned by your service. It seems that there is no effort being made on your part to prevent someone from buying a high dollar card already slabbed, cracking that holder and replacing with a lower quality (or fraudulant copy) and then submitting to your service to "document" this as a legitimate graded card. How does your service give me any peace of mind that the card in the holder is legit just because you scanned it?

[dstudeba]

I'm sure that you understand why we can't come out and post about scandals. it's not our mission and nothing good can come from it. Apologies for the bluntness but this apparently needed to be clarified.


Please excuse my ignorance, but I don't understand why you can't comment on public, well documented scandals. For someone who has supposednly been in the hobby long enough to start a business involving the hobby I would think they would know about WIWAG whatever acronym was used. Also your whole company is based on the existence of fraud and scandals, if it didn't exist, there would be no need for forensics.

[Leon]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I don't understand why you can't comment on public, well documented scandals. For someone who has supposednly been in the hobby long enough to start a business involving the hobby I would think they would know about WIWAG whatever acronym was used. Also your whole company is based on the existence of fraud and scandals, if it didn't exist, there would be no need for forensics.

Forget commenting. When Lloyd and I spoke on the phone he said he had NEVER heard about them. That was my issue....not the fact they will or won't comment, but they were ignorant of WIWAG, Operation Bullpen, CAC or any of the myriad issues with GAI. As I said...must be experience doing something else. It's certainly not in the hobby....or if it is, lets hear of this 100 yrs of experience. I will be glad to state my experience in the hobby, which isn't a ton but at least I know of those things mentioned above :)

[ChiefBenderForever]

The service might be good for a buyer but will cut into any sellers profits even more, this is going to be a very tough sell all around. I do wish you the best of luck, you have a long way to go, right now you are at the base of Niagara falls attempting to paddle up to the top, but atleast you are in a boat with a paddle.

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

It is odd that they answer other questions in such great detail, but continue to ignore every request that they identify themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_FZVD5lsAw

Just a quick note folks... yes, we have taken the time to entertain and answer the most appropriate questions in detail. We are very happy to do that. We have also touched on our backgrounds and how it applies to the service. In addition, we have a press release that is due out next week, which will be our official statement and will expand on my team and the service. It will be available on several PR sites and through a basic Google search.

We understand that this is all new to everyone and that the service may work for some but may not others. It may be an acquired taste or it may not be. You are all entitled to your opinions and that's great, we would have it no other way. Every product or service needs to be put to the test, ours is no different.

We do, however, need to ask that you please refrain from requesting our personal information - we will not post it here. An anonymous message board is an inappropriate forum for that discussion. The press release will cover everything to the extent that you need to know. I will post it to the CFReg.com web site when it becomes public.

Thanks,

Lloyd

[scooter729]

Just a quick note folks... yes, we have taken the time to entertain and answer the most appropriate questions in detail. We are very happy to do that. We have also touched on our backgrounds and how it applies to the service. In addition, we have a press release that is due out next week, which will be our official statement and will expand on my team and the service. It will be available on several PR sites and through a basic Google search.

We understand that this is all new to everyone and that the service may work for some but may not others. It may be an acquired taste or it may not be. You are all entitled to your opinions and that's great, we would have it no other way. Every product or service needs to be put to the test, ours is no different.

We do, however, need to ask that you please refrain from requesting our personal information - we will not post it here. An anonymous message board is an inappropriate forum for that discussion. The press release will cover everything to the extent that you need to know. I will post it to the CFReg.com web site when it becomes public.

Thanks,

Lloyd

Hmmm, where have I seen before where posts are made by someone with a singular first name, but all posts refer to "we"? Just can't seem to place my finger on it...:D

[Al C.risafulli]

Can't seem to put OUR finger on it.

-Al(s)

[RobertGT]

As was stated, at least provide some hobby references. Many members on this board can provide hundreds if not thousands of references for past deals. How many do you have? Who can vouch for you? Why would anyone send a valuable card to some website when no one knows who you are?

It's the first step towards gaining a shred of credibility in this hobby.

[Jim VB]

Hmmm, where have I seen before where posts are made by someone with a singular first name, but all posts refer to "we"? Just can't seem to place my finger on it...:D



Nah! This clearly isn't him (them.) The spelling and grammar mistakes are too few and far between. These guys must have gone to a really good school.

[bijoem]

this all sounds wonderful.

can't wait for the hobby to evolve into a scene like this.....


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[Jim VB]

We do, however, need to ask that you please refrain from requesting our personal information - we will not post it here. An anonymous message board is an inappropriate forum for that discussion.

Thanks,

Lloyd



You can ask us to refrain all you want, but the fact remains that most people on this board will NEVER do the kind of business you are asking for if we don't know who is behind the company. Most of us personally know the people behind the grading companies, the principals behind the auction houses, as well as each other. Many of us also know, or have known the names of people involved in the past scandals discussed.

The only new people in the equation are you guys. So please don't expect to be treated kindly until we do. (And, for the record, your replies so far have been just a little bit condescending.)

Also, please note that this is NOT "an anonymous message board." The people on here have all given personal info to Leon and the other mods. That info is available as needed to other board members. (Usually, only needed in threads that contain controversial posts. For example, if you say 1933 Goudey is your favorite set, you can be anonymous. If you say Dave Kohler of SCP is a scum and he cheated you out of $10,000, well, you'd have to give your name. Just an example.)

[Leon]

You can ask us to refrain all you want, but the fact remains that most people on this board will NEVER do the kind of business you are asking for if we don't know who is behind the company. Most of us personally know the people behind the grading companies, the principals behind the auction houses, as well as each other. Many of us also know, or have known the names of people involved in the past scandals discussed.

The only new people in the equation are you guys. So please don't expect to be treated kindly until we do. (And, for the record, your replies so far have been just a little bit condescending.)

Also, please note that this is NOT "an anonymous message board." The people on here have all given personal info to Leon and the other mods. That info is available as needed to other board members. (Usually, only needed in threads that contain controversial posts. For example, if you say 1933 Goudey is your favorite set, you can be anonymous. If you say Dave Kohler of SCP is a scum and he cheated you out of $10,000, well, you'd have to give your name. Just an example.)

I agree with every single word you just said Jim. I think there needs to be total transparency in this new REVOLUTION, not covertness and secretive behavior. Most of us have known each other, personally, for many years. And your points about anonymity vs privacy, with respect to the board, are spot on. Now, when are we going to finally do lunch? You know that You, Prizner, Rich K and myself really need to get together sometime. Rich and I have done lunch a hundred times and Prizner and I have gotten together around a dozen times. Heck, I would even have another get together at my house if you guys can make it? Take care now.....best regards

[Wite3]

Lloyd (if that is your real name),
Please let us at least know your hobby experience...have you ever been a dealer, collector, grader, etc. You profess great knowledge but no one is going to send a high value card to a bunch of people they do not know or trust. Information up front will lend credibility to your service. Also, this is not an anonymous board. We all are required to post our names on controversial posts per the rules and I think this is starting to be just that.

Joshua

PS It is really easy...my name is Joshua Levine, I have been a collector for over 30 years and have nearly 15 years experience in pre-war cards. My specialty is Phillies and T205s. My collection is nothing special but my knowledge base is fairly large. I was also one of the founding members of OBC, arguably the first online card trading group (been around for over 2 decades now!). Many people can vouch for me on here, in other sites, and in real life. How about you?

[Jim VB]

I agree with every single word you just said Jim. I think there needs to be total transparency in this new REVOLUTION, not covertness and secretive behavior. Most of us have known each other, personally, for many years. And your points about anonymity vs privacy, with respect to the board, are spot on. Now, when are we going to finally do lunch? You know that You, Prizner, Rich K and myself really need to get together sometime. Rich and I have done lunch a hundred times and Prizner and I have gotten together around a dozen times. Heck, I would even have another get together at my house if you guys can make it? Take care now.....best regards



PM sent.

[19cbb]

Unless you are Bill Gates trying to protect his new billion dollar startup website, I don't really see the special need to register your domain name through domainsbyproxy.com, a company that specializes in "Protecting your identity" and "Thwarting harassers & stalkers"...

Why be so secretive if there's nothing to hide?

[Jim VB]

Unless you are Bill Gates trying to protect his new billion dollar startup website, I don't really see the special need to register your domain name through domainsbyproxy.com, a company that specializes in "Protecting your identity" and "Thwarting harassers & stalkers"...

Why be so secretive if there's nothing to hide?



Domains By Proxy Inc., is actually a sister company of GoDaddy.com. In many instances, they do good work as they sheild web sites from much of the automated spamming that goes on. (Ask Leon how much of that crap this site gets.) But in a business that is built on personal relationships, it may be counterproductive.

[19cbb]

But in a business that is built on personal relationships, it may be counterproductive.

You got my point...

[Leon]

Maybe Lloyd is Dean Wormer?


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[bigtrain]

If I thought this service was a good idea I might do business with CFR, even if their hobby experience was limited. I don't think you need to be an expert on the hobby to photograph or take video or create a registry. However, if I were to send a valuable card to a post office box in a small hamlet in Middlesex County, New Jersey, I would want to know who I am dealing with. Is Collectors Forensic Register registered with the State? Is it a corporation? A limited liability company? A trade name? Does it have a physical address? If I send a card to SGC and don't get it back (which would never happen in my experience), I can go bang on their door. I can't do that to a post office box.

[Leon]

The original poster has asked me to lock this thread. As with most requests from an original poster I will honor their request. He also says there will be a press release coming out which will explain more. If anyone wants/cares to start another thread about this, then so be it. regards