not Fred Dunlap at Heritage

[bmarlowe1]

In the Heritage November Signature Dallas auction, lot 81175, the Horner photo, below left, is claimed to be Fred Dunlap. Though it says so on a typed label on the back of the photo (along with some bio info), it isn't.

The real Fred Dunlap, along with his rather odd left ear, is below right. However, you should not need an ear comparison to see that these are two different humans.

[Matt]

Mark - as always, your contributions are appreciated.

[bmarlowe1]

Thanks Matt.

- 19thC man in street clothes
- not grouped with easily recognizable teammates
- identification handwritten (or in this case typed and pasted) on the front or back

Beware, these almost always seem to be bogus.


BTW - if they are interested in knowing who the uknown guy in lot 81181 is, they can contact me.

[prewarsports]

Didn't Fred Dunlap die before Horner starting taking Sports Photos anyways?

[tedzan]

Carl Horner is noted for his photos Circa 1900 - whenever.

Fred Dunlap died in 1902.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abn162dunlap.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



TED Z

[bmarlowe1]

Didn't Fred Dunlap die before Horner starting taking Sports Photos anyways?

My "Portrait of Baseball Photography" by Marshall Fogel is hiding somewhere in my house. That is a good source for that info. Goodwin pegs his BB photos from 1905-1910. In any case, I think the Heritage claim of c1890 is way too early for Horner BB photos.

[Bicem]

The Pop Dillon Horner cabinet I owned showed him in a Tigers uniform, he played for Detroit in 1901 and most of 1902 before heading to Baltimore.

[bmarlowe1]

Heritage has removed the photo.

I should add that they (or their consignor) did a nice job researching lot #81174

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=7028&Lot_No=81174

They correctly list all 12 individuals depicted, though they don't specify the bottom 3, who by process of elimination must be Sensendorfer, Reach and Murnane - but in what order?

[Baseball Rarities]

Heritage has removed the photo.

I should add that they (or their consignor) did a nice job researching lot #81174

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=7028&Lot_No=81174

They correctly list all 12 individuals depicted, though they don't specify the bottom 3, who by process of elimination must be Sensendorfer, Reach and Murnane - but in what order?

Sensendorfer - Murnane - Reach

[barrysloate]

Wouldn't it be nice if Heritage took a moment to mention that all 12 cabinets are badly trimmed? That wasn't even mentioned in the description. That said, of course this is a very significant find.

[prewarsports]

Not that it matters because the photo was clearly not Dunlap, but Fred Dunlap was a homeless vagrant for the last years of his life and certainly did not have a penny to spend on anything but alcohol after about 1895.

[canjond]

Not that it matters because the photo was clearly not Dunlap, but Fred Dunlap was a homeless vagrant for the last years of his life and certainly did not have a penny to spend on anything but alcohol after about 1895.

Wow - never knew that!

[oldjudge]

Barry--Are you sure they are trimmed? My sense is that they were just produced and cut this way. Pete Calderone says they are all the same size.

[oldjudge]

Barry--I've done a little research and I think you are right. Here is a site with images of some of the full cabinets. Click on the 1874 Philadelphia images and you can see the full cabinets

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.capanson.com/teammates/timmurnane.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.capanson.com/teammates.html&usg=__jfH30NYYJfXbz8Xqick7LOFEwFI=&h=760&w=501&sz=53&hl=en&start=2&zoom=1&tbnid=9_4E79W145_EOM:&tbnh=142&tbnw=94&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtim%2Bmurnane%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26gb v%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1

[barrysloate]

Jay- as we just discussed these are standard cabinets with the name of the photographer printed at the bottom. The ones in the auction have been significantly trimmed down. Perhaps Heritage was not aware of any original cabinets. Hopefully they will amend the description.

[bmarlowe1]

Well - thanks to a very astute reader of my newsletter, I now know who that guy is in the photo that started this thread.

He is a ballplayer. If Heritage wants to know, they can contact me.

[nameless]

Look at the eyes in the photos. It sucks because you would think Heritage who does more than just sports memorabilia would be on top of this!

[benjulmag]

Barry is quite correct. The mounts of each of these cabinets are badly trimmed. They are each undersized for 1870's cabinets and possess border skewing and corner sharpness that can be explained only by trimming. Here is the link that shows the Philadephia cabinets in the Spalding Collection at the New York Public Library. http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?keyword=athletics. If you click on a particular cabinet, it will show a blowup. And if you click the image of the verso, it will show the studio (the same as that which produced the Heritage images). Clicking on "Image Details" will give particulars such as the dimensions. Each cabinet is materially larger than those in Heritage, is cropped much differently by not having the photo go to the edge of the mount, does not exhibit uneven toning, and has round corners (which were how they were issued -- no untrimmed 19th cabinets have corners such as those in Heritage).

Almost certainly the Heritage cabinets were at one time mounted under an overlay for the purpose of making a composite of the team (a typical 19th century procedure). That explains both the trimming and the toning. Albumen photos when originally issued were much less toned than how they appear many years later. The toning is caused by exposure and is irreversible. The portion of each photo that was protected by the overlay and therefore had less exposure is significantly lighter in toning. Here is a link to another lot in the current Heritage sale.
http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=7028&Lot_No=80002. This Cdv was once part of a composite of the 1872 Boston Red Stockings and too was covered by an overlay for many years. I know the person who first acquired it and removed the overlay. Each underlying Cdv was badly trimmed and showed comparable toning to the Philadelphia cabinets.

[barrysloate]

As I said earlier I would hope Heritage amends the description. This is a really significant lot that deserves an accurate writeup. If the winning bidder plans to have these graded none of them will receive anything except an Authentic designation. And as Corey stated it was not unusual for a photographic studio to cut down original photos to reshoot the image. Anytime you see a composite CdV or cabinet photograph, it was almost certainly made by first shooting a larger image and then reducing its size. To my knowledge there is no known composite photo of the 1874 Athletics, but not every 19th century image has survived.

Just wanted to add I removed the overlay on the 1872 Boston composite before I sold it. All the bidders knew this during the auction.

[HRBAKER]

The player in question bears a very strong resemblance to the A's Mike "Doc" Powers but I don't think it is him.

[GaryPassamonte]

The player in question looks very much like Billy Hamilton.

[Matt]

FYI - Heritage will be amending the description shortly. They are trimmed but are truly fantastic pieces. Good luck with the bidding!

[prewarsports]

Barry

I am still sore about that one, you oubid me by a nose and had I thought anyone would come out of the woodwork at your level I would have bid much more. One of ones that "got away" for me, but at least a good guy (according to most) got them in the long run :)

Rhys

[barrysloate]

Rhys- that turned out to be my very best buy ever on ebay, but as I told you my snipe was 25K+. I won it for about half my high bid.

I originally planned to bid lower, but a few days before it closed I had a brainstorm: the display was almost certainly constructed of CdV's, and if I could turn a display piece into a set of cards, it would be worth far more. For once I was right.

[bmarlowe1]

Billy Hamilton left, Doc Powers right.

Being a party pooper as usual, I have to say that if you don't know who this is your chances of guessing are near zero.

[Matthew H]

The photo doesn't look like either of those guys.

[Bicem]

The photo doesn't look like either of those guys.

that was his point.

[bmarlowe1]

Actually what would be much more interesting than that guy's identity would be finding out who pasted "Fred Dunlap" on the back of it.

What is funny about this is that just last May, in another thread, we talked about Jeff's Horner photo that really does look like Fred Dunlap (though he is not).
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=808725#post808725

So, Dunlap soon turns up as a false ID in another Horner cabinet for sale. I wonder where that idea came from. :rolleyes:

[benjulmag]

The determination that the Athletic cabinets are trimmed is not contingent on locating comparison cabinets issued the same year by the same studio. It is also not dependent on observing skewed borders and unusually sharp corners. And it is also not contingent on the cabinets varying in size from each other. Rather all one needs to observe is a variance from cabinet to cabinet in the distance of the studio logo on the verso from a particular border (left, right, top or bottom). If that exists, as it does in this instance, then for all practical purposes the mounts are trimmed. Why? Each studio had its own standard mount, whether CdV or cabinet, with a uniformity in the distance of the print from a particular border. An analogy in today's world would be a person's business card. Yes, in the 19th century the cutting techniques were not as precise as they are today. So conceivably there can be subtle differences in how well-centered the logos might be. But if there are noticeable differences in the centering of the logos, as is the case with these cabinets, at minimum that raises the most serious questions whether the mounts were trimmed, mandating disclosure.

[barrysloate]

Heritage has amended the description of the lot. It does seem a little roundabout, don't you think? But at least the information is now public.

[oldjudge]

Why can't they be straightforward and say that the cabinets are trimmed instead of weisel-wording the description. I think that they should also contact all current bidders and give them an opportunity to retract their bids. This is a material change in the lot's description.

[barrysloate]

Jay- I agree. They went to great lengths not to use the word "trimmed." (and it's spelled "weasel":))

[oldjudge]

Barry--I am the world's worst speller; without spell check I am lost.