T205 Dolly Gray with stats

[nodgrass]

My putting together the T205 set is a relatively new undertaking. I was lucky enough to nab a Gray with stats on Ebay yesterday. I am trying to determine how difficult this card really is. The pop reports have a story to tell but can't replace observation over time. I would like to solicit the opinions of a few folks who have been at T205 for a while. In looking at the "numbers", it appears that Hoblitzell "no stats" and Moran "stray line of type" are the only cards that have less examples graded. This does not include the Mathewson "37-1" which, I believe, is a more recently discovered variation that has not had many examples graded designated as such. Any input would be appreciated.

[bbcard1]

One of the odder things I found going through my T205s to put together my beater set is a Dolly Gray w stats which i have apparently had for years with no special love for it. I didn't even know I had it. It is pretty beat, couldn't see it being anything but a 1. As I am only going to a set of fronts, I may part with it if i can parlay it into something more desirable, but it is interesting for now.

[barrysloate]

Dolly Gray with stats is much tougher than the no stats version. But it is not a terribly difficult card.

[nodgrass]

Barry, I asked for opinions from experienced collectors and you certainly are that. I highly value your opinion but to stimulate conversation I would like to point out the following: The average T205 card has been graded by PSA about 100-110 times. Some are as high as 140 (much higher for many HOF'ers due to value). Most of the tougher common's PSA POP are in the 70-80 range. The Hoblitzell no stats (33), the Moran stray line (35), and Dolly Gray stats (37) are the only cards under 40 examples graded. Most of the others cards recognized as very difficult have over 50, 60, and even over 70 examples graded.

Due to higher value, you would figure the HOF grading factor and resubmits would come into play with the very scarce cards much more so than the tough commons. The "HOF grading factor and resubmits" is best explained as: the more a card is worth, the more examples will be graded (and regraded). That being said, how can the very low POP of the Gray with stats be explained?

[barrysloate]

Marc- one of the things I'm not too knowledgeable about is pop reports. That in itself is a topic that has been greatly debated on the board. In brief, pop reports are not always trusted by all due to resubmissions which skew the numbers. Also, some cards are more likely to be submitted for grading than others.

So while I have a pretty good sense of which T205's are somewhat tougher and which are much tougher, I am unable to correlate these numbers with their respective pop numbers. Maybe some other posters have a better feel for them and can chime in.

[Wite3]

Marc,
I would not go by pop reports. T205s are broken out very often for crossover back and forth and for resubmits.

I have been tracking the t205s for over 15 years. Gray with stats is difficult but not as tough as Moran and nowhere near as tough as Hobby no stats. Gray with stats is about as tough as some of the tougher commons. I actually think Joss and the Wilhelms are tougher. Without my spreadsheet in front of me, I can't give you numbers but I seem to recall seeing more Gray with stats than those two.

Joshua

[nodgrass]

As I mentioned above, I tend to agree that POP reports have their drawbacks when using as a sole source to analyze the scarcity of a particular card. Especially now that they have become tainted with constant resubmissions. However, I feel it is a valuable tool or at the very least a starting point. When I collected T206's heavily and PSA first started posting the POP report, I used it as a valuable reference to put me ahead of the curve in identifying tough cards and commons. Most often it was right on and I benefited later when everybody else was paying big money for the same cards. When Joe Doyle NY became an expensive "common", I already had two PSA 4's and a PSA 5 w/ Sovereign back and paid less than $40 for all of them.

I will argue the skewed data from resubmissions point as it applies directly to this particular case. I would think this would affect the more expensive and scarce cards the most. However, the Dolly Gray with stats still has less than 40 examples graded. How can that be explained?

Lastly, to touch on the point of POP records being inaccurate. I would think the only substitute would be painstakingly watching and charting the sale of particular cards as they appear on the market over a long period of time. How would this be any more accurate? Reselling the same card, raw cards purchased and later graded, graded cards purchased and broken out, crossovers, resubmissions. How can any card be accurately tracked in this method?

I really don't mean to turn this into a POP report debate and I apologize for getting off-track. I really would like to hear about real world experiences and/or data.... theories as to why the Gray or other cards in T205 are rare or not rare.

Is the Gray with stats only available with certain backs? I don't have access to it at this moment to confirm my memory is correct, but I beleive in Lipset's encylcopedia he states that the Gray w/stats is only available in Sovereign back. The examples I have seen have a Piedmont back.

[Tcards-Please]

Marc,

I've been collecting this set since 2007 and I'm more than halfway complete on a low grade master set. Most of what I've learned regarding this set has come from Joshua, Shawn, the Engles (Matt/Turner). They are very knowledgeable when it comes to T205's. The Gray with stats comes with both Sovereign and Piedmont backs. I have both examples and seem to come up for auction quite often. Although the Gray is a tough card to find, I've found that there are 8 other cards that I would say are harder to find:

1. Hoblitzell "no stats" - only found with Hassan.
2. Wilhelm "suffered" - found with Hassan & Cycle
3. Mathewson - Cycle
4. Wilhelm "suffe ed" - found with Piedmont
5. Wallace "one line of 1910"
6. Moran "stray line"
7. Addie Joss
8. Hoblitzell "name correct no cin"

Just my opinion from what I've seen from my journey. What I found difficult to find may have been easier for someone else depending on when they started collecting.

r/
Frank

[nodgrass]

Frank, Thanks very much for that useful information. It seems as though there is a ton unknown about T205. With T206, much has been pieced together with regards to the printing of the various series, the backs, and how it all ties together to make certain cards more scarce. I am hoping this will also happen to the same degree with T205's.... or maybe it has and I missed it?

[Pup6913]

Marc the secrets are with the T205 collectors. We just dont share the info as much as the larger collected groups. This keeps the eye off of us and allows us to buy what little exist cheaper in comparision to the T206's for relativley cheap. Just contact the T205 guys Like Matt and Turner Engle, Josh, MR.Toad:D, maybe me (I know alot but not enough yet. I wanna be the Ted Z of T205's:rolleyes: Need to invest about 40 more yrs into research though)

As far as the Gray w/stats I have seen more lately in the last 6 months than the last couple yrs.

[Wite3]

I don't publicize it too much but those that have been around the board for awhile know that I have painstakingly tracked sales of T205s and have tracked particular cards themselves for some time of the tougher t205s...gray w/ stats included. I have scans and/or notes and fairly good data on true sales reports. Heck, I have tracked a certain Joss for eleven different sales (starting in 1998 for $35 and recently sold for $432 and it has been graded three times, twice by PSA and once by GAI)...I have lots of data and I know I promised to put out my semi-annual report but things have been really busy this year. I promise to get it together eventually.

Joshua

[Matt E.]

Thanks for the kind words.
Turner and I usally try to pick up the cards listed in the links below when we see them at a show.... either to hoard or flip.

Really no science here, just recognize the variations, short prints and hard to find players and you are home free. There will always be a market for
the "tough" cards in this very beautiful set. You can find some of these cards, but in a higher grade is next to impossible.

I would like to say Bill Cornell knows his T205's quite well and has been very helpful to us.


SHORT PRINTS
http://imageevent.com/babybingbaseball/shortprints



HARD TO FIND
http://imageevent.com/babybingbaseball/thetoughies;jsessionid=892r0jrof6.penguin_s



Here is one that did not make either list but is quite difficult to find in a higher grade.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2013/wiltse.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/wiltse.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Mikehealer]

Hi Matt
I noticed that Shean(Cubs) was not on either of your lists, is he not that tough or just no scan up.
Thanks
Mike

[Matt E.]

Mike,

It seems as if we see / find more of the Shean Cubs than the Graham Cubs card.
I would say the Graham Cubs is the harder of the two to find.

Just our findings which are not scientifc by any means.

Thanks,

Matt

[Mikehealer]

Thanks Matt.

[familytoad]

I don't think I can add too much to the discussion that hasn't already been posted (too late the hero, but I did start this set in 1997:o

But if I were to classify which cards are typically listed as tougher cards into categories I would say , in my opinion:

Overated toughness: Shean and Graham (Cubs), Gray w/Stats, Latham or Leifield "initials" variety, Vaughn SP

Underrated toughness : Wilhelm "suffered", Hobby no stats, Moran stray line, Jimmie Collins, Bill Dahlen SP

Tough but acheivable : Joss, Wallace(both "no cap" versions), Hobby correct, no cin, Wilhelm "suffe ed"

Short Prints: Rowan seems to often be low grade and maybe not as common as the other known SP's, I also agee with Wiltse(one ear) for grade toughness

My opinion on Gray (as the OP started with) isn't very scientific either...I wonder how many T205 Dolly Gray cards are graded without any indication of which version it is? At one point I doubt any one cared...I know I didn't when I started collecting T205.

Another opinion of mine is that many of the T205 collectors prefer this set raw...TPG often kills the grades. I have resigned myself that the remaining cards I still need to have graded will get no higher than 30-40 despite very nice eye appeal. I really like the look of these in SGC holders, but I sometimes feel as though the technical grade of these cards doesn't do them justice...So for my third set (I'm about 1.6 sets down, half graded), I will buy low grade and crack them...not good for the pop reports(so what) but better for me to show them off. A couple hundred slabs takes a lot of room, afterall...

[barrysloate]

I believe Wallace no cap w/one line is much tougher than the two line variation.

[Matt E.]

Brian,

Great classifications.


Overrated Toughness

Underrated Toughness

Tough but Achievable

[nodgrass]

Thanks to all who chimed in about my question. I am somewhat surprised to find the general consensus of the Gray w/stats card is that it's not too tough. I had the opportunity to buy the Wallace 2 lines and Bresnahan mouth open from the same seller and steered my focus toward the Gray w/stats because of my perception that it was the most difficult. Apparently I made the wrong decision as the other two sold for less money. I guess it's true what they say about auctions. It only takes two people that want something.

[barrysloate]

Back in the 1980's the guides used to list Doc Scanlon as a common, then later it was considered to be a scarce card. However, I don't see it on any of the lists above. How is the card perceived today? Is it somewhat tougher, or just a common?

[nodgrass]

It still brings a premium. I bought one a couple of months ago and it was about 3-4 times what a common in similar condition would bring.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Marc. I assumed it was a little tougher.

[Matt E.]

Thanks to all who chimed in about my question. I am somewhat surprised to find the general consensus of the Gray w/stats card is that it's not too tough. I had the opportunity to buy the Wallace 2 lines and Bresnahan mouth open from the same seller and steered my focus toward the Gray w/stats because of my perception that it was the most difficult. Apparently I made the wrong decision as the other two sold for less money. I guess it's true what they say about auctions. It only takes two people that want something.

Marc,

You made the correct decision buying the Gray with stats! If I had my choice I would buy the Gray with Stats over the other two with card condition being equal. I feel that is the hardest of the 3 to pick up.

My order of difficulty

Hard: Wallace 2 Line
Harder: Bresnahan Mouth Open
Hardest: Gray with Stats