Philly Show this weekend....see you there ?

[tedzan]

Hope to see some of you at the Valley Forge Sportscard Show this weekend......Sept 24 -26th

5 PM - 9 PM Friday

9 AM - 5 PM Saturday

9 AM - 4 PM Sunday


Jim Rivera and I will be set up at Booth #408. We have a selection of vintage sports cards from 1887 - 1947.
Including a large selection of T206's.....between us, over 700 stars & commons (including tough backs).

Also, many Bowmans and Topps from 1948 - 1973.


For additional info, directions, lodging, and ballplayers signing sessions (including "Mr. October" in September)
check out this site......

http://www.phillyshow.org/


TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

I'll be there Friday, as usual and will follow my well-established routine:

1) Express disappointment over lack of T and E cards that I am looking for at prices vaguely in line with reality
2) Meet up with Ted, Bill Z., Kevin Savage, Ron Chiaro and other decent folk
3) Half-heartedly work on set-building my 50's and 60's baseball and 60's football
4) Buy a couple of Goudeys/Playballs/Batter Ups to say that I've made progress on my pre-war collection
5) Swear off coming to the show again
6) Come home and find a great listing on BST that I can't go for, having blown my budget
7) Repeat as necessary in December

/sigh

[bcbgcbrcb]

This time, I will be there most of the day on Saturday.

[glynparson]

As usual I'll be set mostly blowing out 1950's and up stars and commons in collector grades. Not even sure if Ill bring graded stuff as it sells much better in ebay store and I cant sell cheaper stuff on ebay the fees are too high. So if your looking for cheaper 50-60's stuff please stop by my always busy $1 and $5 tables.

[tedzan]

I recently acquired a collection of 444 different T206 cards. So, I might have some you need since the
last show we met at. Including about 40 Southern Leaguer's.


Looking forward to seeing you ole friend.

TED Z

[bh3443]

I hope you all have a great time whether youre buying or selling.
I love that area and was always at the shows at Wilow Grove.
I really miss not being able to go there anymore, but thank God I have net54
to get cards. Have fun and I look forward to hearing how the show was!
Bill

[VintageBall]

Is anybody heading down from NYC this time? Carpool? Train?

Robert S

[blades3]

I will be there walking around on Saturday and Sunday. I fly in Friday, but have some consignment runs to go on in Jersey so I'll miss the show Friday. See you there.

[Michael Peich]

Alas, I will have to miss the show and camaraderie. My 87 year-old father, my sister, and my daughter are running a 5K in Chicago on Sunday. I'll be there cheering on the three generations! See you all in December.

Cheers, Mike

[toppcat]

Is anybody heading down from NYC this time? Carpool? Train?

Robert S

I am not but is there actually a train option? That would work for me in the future possibly..

[tedzan]

There is no train that goes in the vicinity of the Valley Forge Convention Center that I know of.

Click onto the link in my 1st post here, and then General Information to get Directions to the Show.


TED Z

[Jewish-collector]

I am not but is there actually a train option? That would work for me in the future possibly..

I have the same question for this somewhat new venue.

For the old Ft. Washington show, you could take a train from center city Philly to the Ft. Washington train terminal (walking distance to the 2-3 hotels), then take one of the hotel's shuttle or a taxi to the convention center.

[tedzan]

Hey Alan....that's one of the things I liked about the show in Baltimore. I took the Amtrak train, and in 2 hours
I was there.....no stress, no mess.

Anyhow, will we see you in Valley Forge this weekend ?


TED Z

[morgan118]

Attended the show Friday night and will be back today since I booked a room at the attached hotel. If the show gets any smaller it will be more like my local church basement show. I knew I was in trouble when I saw the real wide aisles between tables when I came in. Many well known dealers are no longer setting up and the ones I talked to were all complaing about the cost. Doesn't bode well for the future of what once was a real destination for sports collectors. It really is a shadow of what it used to be in Fort Washington.

As far as items for sale, the usual overpriced graded material and VG-EX raw material at nr-mint pricing. Most of the dealers are either out of touch with the current prices that items are being sold for right now or just love packing and unpacking their inventory. I noticed one dealer who I see at virtually every show with a very high end gouping of 1951 Topps Red Backs for around $5,500.00. I tried to make him a reasonable offer I believe over 2 years ago for this very same set that he has set up at this show, wouldn't budge. So, here he is almost 3 years later still packing and unpacking the same cards and they still have the same price on them. I really don't understand how it is possible to tie up this amount of inventory dollars for years and years and never get the hint that your material is too overpriced to sell. He either paid virtually nothing for the cards and is hoping for someone who has more money than brains to stumble onto his booth or he has married the cards.

In any case I did manage to make a few purchases of individual items from Richie Salberg of Rchie's Sports Cards, Chuck Blue of Blue Gems and Steve from Steve's Cards and more to make the show worthwhile. I really think the show is on the brink of disappearing however, which would be a shame for our hobby. Hopefully the Chicago show in November will be better.

[judsonhamlin]

I will affirm what Mike just posted about Friday night. The crowds were smaller, the dealers fewer and the prices just as unrealistic as predicted. Pre-war cards, except for a few dealers, were overgraded and overpriced. One dealer had a SGC 50 common at 100.00 and a SGC 30 Chance for 375. Why? That is, at most, 150.00 worth of cards...
Many dealers I had hoped to see didn't set up, including Bill Henderson, whose name was on the program, but whose booth was empty.
I did pick up some cards, but not really enough to justify the 1 1/2 drive in December. It may be too early to write this show's obituary, but its long-term prospects are poor at best.:(

[e107collector]

I just arrived home from the show today, and I had a great time. The crowd wasn't like it was at Fort Washignton, but by mid-day, there was a good number.

I enjoyed being able to meet a few fellow board members, and put a face with their name. I got a few cards slabbed by SGC, and it was a great day in PA for the ride down the turnpike.

There was some great material on display for upcoming auctions. Mile High and Legendary had some nice cards. There was also some dealers/auction houses that had a lot of hgigh end cards that weren't on display, but rather under the table, so to speak.

There was a new auction house called Paragon Auctions, that had some great cards on display, especially a Boston Garter color Mathewson.

I will be back there in December 2010.

Tony

[morgan118]

Definitely more traffic on Saturday and made a few more purchases, thank God. I fly into this show so it is a decent expense commitment for me. I purchased a very nice 1948 Leaf Boxing Abe Attell from Ted Z., and 2 killer Redman Tobacco Cards- a 1952 raw Willie Mays for $225.00 from Louis Bollman and a 1954 SGC 88 Jim Gilliam for $160.00 which looks undergraded from Wayne Varner.

All in all still a good show but I hope the promoters cut the cost back somewhat to try to keep this alive. At 1:00pm I asked one dealer, E & R Galleries, how he was doing and he said he had sold $60.00 total for the day thus far ! Those are flea market numbers. Pretty tough to make money like that. Another disturbing situation was the amount of thefts being reported from dealers' booths on both Friday night and Saturday. Also not good for continued dealer support.

There are so few shows like Philly around anymore I hope everything that can be done to keep this one going is implemented. It would be a shame for it to go the way of Sportsfest in Chicago.

[Rich Klein]

Many dealers I had hoped to see didn't set up, including Bill Henderson, whose name was on the program, but whose booth was empty.
:(

Bill told me at the National that he was on the verge of moving to Florida; he had closed his Beckett "store" and was basically stepping back and was trying to sell most of his inventory. I wonder if he completed his missions

Rich

[judsonhamlin]

I checked Bill's eBay/Beckett sites and that makes sense. Ebay only had a few listings and Beckett is closed.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I was at the show yesterday and was able to accomplish what I set out to do plus make a nice purchase that I never expected. I consigned a lot to Bill Goodwin's next auction, submitted a bunch of photos to BGS for grading and picked up the following postcard thanks to Toby which pictures HOF'ers, Red Faber & Eddie Collins (possibly more but have not been able to identify everybody yet):

[Leon]

This isn't to bash anyone or anything but 2 yrs ago at the National, Scott and I asked about a table at this show for the following year (last year). We were told they were probably all booked so we walked away. When I went to that very show last year there were about 1/3 of the tables empty. I went up to the promoters booth and asked about what happened. I was told they made a mistake but they would call and let me know about the next show. No call, of course. So, Scott and I will eventually find a show that is more interested in us setting up at. Maybe this is one of their problems? I honestly have no idea what they were thinking either time I asked but maybe it was the "well, we only have limited space" so they could make like it's really active?

I did have a great time the 1 time I went to Philly when I stayed with Teddy Z. I saw a lot of friends at the show too. Unfortunately, I think they need to find employees more interested in doing their job (promoting) than whatever they are doing. Again, just my take....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mebbe they don't want Texans.... understandable if that is the case ....

[Leon]

Mebbe they don't want Texans.... understandable if that is the case ....

Hey, our money is green!!

[Rich Klein]

I have not beed to that show since 2005; but I suspect there are many problems beyond our control

1) Shows are just not the same -- other than the National -- we don't see as many dealers, customers, etc

2) Bob S sold the show a few years ago to Hunt Auctions. Hunt is a part of Upper Deck, and they by their nature are more attuned to new cards then new cards. And they do not run the show (I would wager) with the same passion that Bob did

3) No next generation of dealers who really want to set up at shows. They would all rather be at their keyboards rather than meeting and greeting. And when you deal with public, you can be put off by that 5 percent

Regards
Rich

[glynparson]

The show is still way more a vintage show then a modern one when going by dealer inventories. The problem for buyers is that many of them still have cards priced high for 2005-8 when the market was hot. Yet alone now for a down market. I saw some items one can routinely pick up on eBay for 15-30 dollars on dealers tables with prices like 150-250. They would of course be complaining about how horrible the show was blah blah and I'd think No wonder your prices are nuts. Heck the guy set up diagonally behind me had a number of items from a recent local auction and had the items priced upto 10-20 times what he paid. Another guy complaining of no sales. I know the markets down so I brought cheap stuff low grade beaters etc. Cheap graded cards and I missed what I wanted to make to call it a real good show by $20. Some of these guys are unwilling to adapt to the times and will end up going the way of the dinosaur.

[peterose4hof]

Most of the dealers who have huge overpriced inventories most likely are into their stuff for way too much and not willing to lower prices because that would mean they have to take a "loss". Once the economy, and in turn the hobby, improves their prices will be more on par with fair market value and we will be praising these dealers for having such great inventories.

Alas, they will still keep their best stuff under the table and moan and groan every time you ask to see something.

[danc]

I was there Friday and it was DEAD. Pockets of the room missing with regular dealers. Hunt over in the corner with no one around. Spaced out somewhat weird to make it appear grander. Saturday, it picked up some. Overpriced cards (one guy there, out of his mind and you can tell he was sick of people asking the price and groaning in silence) with the police making appearences as items were stolen from tables. Watched a handful of people pay $70 to meet Joe Blanton and basically made the seven hour trek to see Phil, Graig and Doug and try and fill a few holes, which I did. Will skip December and hopefully by 2011, Hunt figures out how to bring life to this show as Friday defines the word "pathetic". How much longer can this grand show survive?

DanC

[judsonhamlin]

I have always liked the Friday after work time slot. First, I felt like I was getting first crack at the vintage cards (and was even a dues-paying EPSCC member for a while to get in at 400) and it was crowded but manageable. Now, with kids' sports and other weekend obligations, Friday is the best option for me for other reasons. But the last few shows dating back to Reading have been pretty dead on Friday, so I'm not sure it makes a great deal of sense to keep it open. Maybe by cutting it back to two days, Hunt can reduce the rental cost and charge less to the dealers for tables, which might stimulate more interest and reinvigorate the show.

[danmckee]

I stopped doing this show completely, I won't even attend it. I was a regular at Fort Washington and then Reading and Dad did the old Willow Grove shows before that. I think the show has been ruined completely. I like David but I think he tried to bleed his dealers to get the money back that he paid Bob for the rights to the show. The gun show that rents the EXACT same space at the EXACT same time charges their dealers $60 a table. I think David charges $550. I had a VIP table at first so I was paying $1300 which is National money. The show was terrible both times for me. I crushed at Reading. When they sent the poll out to add a 3rd Christmas show I was the first one to respond NO! Then a few MORONS chimed in that they would love to have a 3rd show. Everyone I talk to says it is completely DEAD, no customers, limited dealers etc.. I say bag it and come down to Chantilly and set up and shop with me and Roger Neufeldt who also made the immediate transition. We are working at building the Chantilly show back up to the vintage power house it once was in the late 1980s. Dan.

P.S. Ted Z, we welcome you to Chantilly brother!

[blades3]

I missed Friday, but was there for much of Saturday and Sunday. That front area of the show is absolutely dead. The rest of the show wasn't much busier. I was there in Dec. though and this show was phenomenal compared to the 10 people who attended in Dec. 2009 (mild exaggeration). Some dealers did horrible, but some were very happy with the show. I ran around the area to get consignments, including a Saturday trip to Baltimore and a Sunday trip to Staten Island, and talked with a lot of my dealer friends, like Phil Marks, Kevin Keating, Kip Ingle, Dick Gordon, etc. so it was worth the trip for me, but not because of the show. McAvoy and Henderson have now dropped this event too and I noticed others scaling back. You really gotta wonder what the future of this one holds.

[Rob D.]

Ted,

Looking forward to reading your thoughts regarding the most recent show.

Thanks.

[tedzan]

I'll first preface my comments by saying that I have continuously set-up at the Philly Show since 1981. It has been a
great experience; and, especially with respect to all the great people I have become friends with in this hobby. First
and foremost, I'm a collector. I do like to "wheel & deal" vintage cardboard (sports and non-sports) and the 28 years
in Willow Grove, Ft. Washington, and Reading have been tremendous.

The Valley Forge show started off slow 1 1/2 years ago. It was slowly improving in terms of attendance and sales, as
was evident in last March's show. However, the consensus of opinion is that last week's show was very disappointing.
Here are several external factors that I attribute this to (not listed in any order)......

Ebay
Numerous Auctions
Current Economic woes in this country
Baltimore National

The people running this show have to realize that a "hi-priced autograph show" does not necessarily translate into a
good dealer--customer show. Furthermore, we have observed that at least 24 of the Hi-calibre, veteran vintage card
dealers (e.g., Dan McKee, Irv Lerner, Terry Knouse, Roger Neufeldt, Bill McAvoy, Ron Barrett, etc., etc.) are no longer
setting up at this show. The attrition rate of these quality dealers increases with each show. This bodes very poor for
the future success of this show.

It appears to me that major BB card shows will eventually go the way as BB card shops of the 1980's & '90s went. Of
course the National will remain....and then, my suggestion to the National promoters would be to make the National a
semi-annual event. A Spring (April) show permanently in Baltimore. And, a Fall event (Sept) that floats between the
West Coast, Chicago and Cleveland.

Just my thoughts.


Hey Dan McKee......I'll give Chantilly some serious consideration.

TED Z

[Leon]

Scott and I are talking about setting up at Chantilly. The next show seems to be in about 2 weeks, which is kind of short notice, and too close to our current auction ending. I am looking forward to the one after that, and depending on some other things that go on, Scott or I (B and L Auctions) will probably set up at it. best regards

[bijoem]

Leon -

The Philly Show changed venue in recent years (multiple times) and also has changed hands (new ownership) around the time period you are mentioning.

I would guess it is possible things were lost in the shuffle when changing from one owner to another.

If the show is something that would be beneficial to you - - - I would give them a pass on what has happened in the past - - and call them up for a table.

I don't have much to compare it to - but I hear it is still the best show outside of the National.

[x2drich2000]

While I agree that the show has gone down hill when compared to years ago, I think Ted has hit a number of the key items that have contributed to that decline. I would also emphasis that those elements he has mentioned have contributed to the decline in all/most shows. With that in mind, I think you need to really consider the show in the context of the current environment. In that context, from a collector's standpoint, I still think the show is pretty good. You will be able to find stuff at this show you may not be able to find at most other shows. But as a collector, I don't think you can go to the show expecting to pay the same prices you would on Ebay. If you do, I think you will be very disappointed. Likewise, I think dealers need to understand that collector's have become accustomed to doing business outside of the show environment and as a result, dealers need to find something that makes attending the show more attractive than sitting at a computer.

With that said, I do have a few questions.

1) Without having ever attended Chantilly, what specific aspects of that show make it superior to the Valley Forge show? How do you think those aspects could be improved at Valley Forge?

2) Recognizing that several prominent dealers have left the Valley Forge show, and that the table costs seem to be a big factor, what would draw these dealers back to the show? Would simply lowering the table fees actually entice those dealers to return?

DJ

[danc]

Ted made great points. I have been going to the show, on and off since 1988 and it will never be like it once was, simply because a lot of traffic in the old days was surrounding the arrival of new product. And "reasonable fees" for autograph guests.

Today, neither is the case. It's not (for me) as much as an avenue to purchase, but simply a place to meet up with dealers and friends and make a minimal amount of purchasing, with the awareness that much of what I see I can obtain at better prices without the long travel and by sitting before my computer.

I know that if I go back in December, I will see the same mugs, the same cards and the only thing that will change is the case where I can view first hand items that will go up for auction the following week.

Counting down for deep dish in 2011.

DanC

[JamesGallo]

I'll first preface my comments by saying that I have continuously set-up at the Philly Show since 1981. It has been a
great experience; and, especially with respect to all the great people I have become friends with in this hobby. First
and foremost, I'm a collector. I do like to "wheel & deal" vintage cardboard (sports and non-sports) and the 28 years
in Willow Grove, Ft. Washington, and Reading have been tremendous.

The Valley Forge show started off slow 1 1/2 years ago. It was slowly improving in terms of attendance and sales, as
was evident in last March's show. However, the consensus of opinion is that last week's show was very disappointing.
Here are several external factors that I attribute this to (not listed in any order)......

Ebay
Numerous Auctions
Current Economic woes in this country
Baltimore National

The people running this show have to realize that a "hi-priced autograph show" does not necessarily translate into a
good dealer--customer show. Furthermore, we have observed that at least 24 of the Hi-calibre, veteran vintage card
dealers (e.g., Dan McKee, Irv Lerner, Terry Knouse, Roger Neufeldt, Bill McAvoy, Ron Barrett, etc., etc.) are no longer
setting up at this show. The attrition rate of these quality dealers increases with each show. This bodes very poor for
the future success of this show.

It appears to me that major BB card shows will eventually go the way as BB card shops of the 1980's & '90s went. Of
course the National will remain....and then, my suggestion to the National promoters would be to make the National a
semi-annual event. A Spring (April) show permanently in Baltimore. And, a Fall event (Sept) that floats between the
West Coast, Chicago and Cleveland.

Just my thoughts.


Hey Dan McKee......I'll give Chantilly some serious consideration.

TED Z


I have to disagree on a few of Ted's points.

First Ebay isn't new, its been around 10+ years so I don't think it's impact is any different now as it was 2 or 5 years ago. Sure it has an impact but I don't think it varies from year to year.

Second, I think auctions to drain quality material from the sale floor. If you wanted to buy say an E90 or CJ Joe Jackson you would have to buy one in an auction as they are almost never for sale. I think this is the case with any "hot" higher end card.

Third, the Current Economic woes in this country have impacted everything but I have noticed things are better now then a year or six months ago, yet it seems this show was worse then the last.

Forth, Baltimore National, to me it had no impact. Perhaps people can't recover in a few months but perhaps it was more of an issue of the product and the prices rather then the national being close.

IMO there is a few simple things they can do to attract more customers and that is ADVERTISE!!! Plain and simple. They do not do anything locally on the sports radio station. It is said when I hear about the gun show and the home show but not the sports card show.

There were a lot of empty spaces on Friday which is a bad sign, however I did notice a few people that said they would never come back sitting there behind a table.

IMO the table price isn't the biggest problem it is a simple fact that many people come get a signature and leave. Plus the people they bring in to sign are so expensive that it drains a ton of cash out of the room. I think you would be better off with lower priced autographs rather they the hot new thing.

I had talked to both Paul and Sheryl about my concerns in the past but I never saw any change.

Leon- They did call me about doing the show when I didn't sign up so it might be worth another try.

James G

[tedzan]

I totally agree with you regarding the high-priced autograph situation as I have stated.....
"The people running this show have to realize that a "hi-priced autograph show" does not necessarily translate into a good dealer--customer show."

$100 for Schilling's autog., pix, and Authentication is ridiculous. I like Schilling a lot, but that is a lot $$ for his signature. And, who knows what they
were charging for Andre Dawson, or Reggie Jackson ?


Regarding your......
"Forth, Baltimore National, to me it had no impact. Perhaps people can't recover in a few months but perhaps it was more of an issue of the product
and the prices rather then the national being close."

I have to differ with you. I can tell you for a fact that at least 12 of my long-time, regular Philly Show customers, who bought cards from me in Bal-
timore this Summer, didn't show up at the Valley Forge show last weekend. I heard similar stories from other dealers when we were comparing notes.


TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

I would still like to see this show succeed. I think the observations that turning Philly into an autograph show does nothing for the vintage crowd. If you're there for a 100 Shilling auto, then the odds of you shopping the booths and picking up T-cards or the like is probably fairly slim.
I will defer to Ted (hi Ted) about the impact of Baltimore. But having two shows reasonable close in time and place may just not be viable in our small world.

Some ideas:

-Twice a year, say March and October.
-Make Friday more attractive to the vintage consumer somehow. Either by making it a "preview" night or by working some deal with SGC and/or PSA for grading deals that night. Something, anything, even a few freebie autograph guests.
-Group the vintage dealers apart from the shiny stuff crowd - we'll find you and will appreciate not having to fight through the tables full of customers looking for 2010 Chrome XL Super SP 1 of 1 Refractor autographed game-used pine tar rag or whatever.

[byrone]

It appears to me that major BB card shows will eventually go the way as BB card shops of the 1980's & '90s went. Of
course the National will remain....and then, my suggestion to the National promoters would be to make the National a
semi-annual event. A Spring (April) show permanently in Baltimore. And, a Fall event (Sept) that floats between the
West Coast, Chicago and Cleveland.

Just my thoughts.


Hey Dan McKee......I'll give Chantilly some serious consideration.

TED Z

I was at the Baltimore National and thought it was very good.

Was it good enough for dealers to the extent that they might want to make it a permanent host?

[toppcat]

Baltimore is a very covenient city to fly or drive into (train too) and not too expensive by East Coast standards. Given the dearth/death of big regional shows, having two Nationals per year would make a lot of sense IMO and Bawlmer would not be a bad choice for one of them say every other year.

[Jewish-collector]

I was not able to attend this Philly show, but have been going to this show on a regular basis since the mid 1990's and have even attended a few shows back when it was in the old motor lodge in the 1980's.

It's too bad it has gone downhill. Outside of the National, this had been known as the very best show around. The fact that it moved initially to Reading before its new location didn't help. But, I think a more valid reason for the decline is that David Hunt is not really a show promoter.

A show has different purposes for the different types of collectors. Some collectors (like the guys on signingshotline.com) are mainly interested in the in-person autograph signings, so they don't care what dealers are setting up and what they are bringing to sell. There are, of course, the "shiny stuff" collectors, who don't care about the autograph signings nor vintage. The members of Net54 are, obviously, interested in vintage cards & memorabilia, so again it doesn't matter who is signing.

I think Mr. Hunt has decided that the autograph signings are more important, so therefore a lot of the national dealers have stopped setting up because a lot of collectors of vintage cards were not attending. There may be other reasons, but that's a large part for it. If they truly want it like the old days, they would have to put much less emphasis on the autograph signings to try to get the vintage dealers back. Perhaps they could try having a live Hunt auction one evening during that weekend.

Alan

[tinkereversandme]

Or maybe there is simply more interest in Home Shows and Gun Shows? Maybe there is a reason why the Baseball Card Show is dead, but other avenues who have collectible conventions strive. Just a lack of interest.

If you advertise more, maybe I will haveto pay $10 for admission and the dealer tables escalate once more and less dealers. I think people who are 'in the know', are well aware of the show as there are only a handful of show that have survived. People do use shows in different ways, but if you really want to buy stuff, your best bet will always be the Internet.

Plus, things changed since the hey-deys of the show. People really like to win stuff, not buy it outright. We have been trained to embrace the auction.

The dealers that seem to do best (from my observations) at these shows are the sellers that have 3200 count boxes and binders of raw singles and set builders have their checkmarked sheets out.

As far as autographs go, it's a massive joke the prices these shows ask for sports guests. The days of selling out tickets are long gone. I woud pay $50 for Willie Mays, but $300? I quit doing drugs in the early seventies. Late seventies maybe.

Regards,

Larry

[tedzan]

tinkereversandme

Regarding your......
"Plus, things changed since the hey-deys of the show. People really like to win stuff, not buy it outright. We have been trained to embrace the
auction."

This is unfortunately true for BB card shows.

There is no doubt about it, the myriad number of BB related Auctions are making a serious dent into the BB card shows. I guess I do not under-
stand why all these auctions are so popular with collectors, since these auctions operate with 10% bidding increments. Hey guys, only need 7
bids to DOUBLE the OPENING BID. And 14 bids will QUADRUPLE the OPENING BID.

Not for me....unless one of these Auction Houses reduces this ridiculous 10% increment policy, I aint bidding. Not to say, how absurd the "juice"
is on top of these exorbitant bidding numbers. What happened to the age old enjoyable practice of bargaining or bartering over BB cards to get
a reasonable deal at a live show ?

So, the shows will continue to suffer (or fail)......while, the realized prices at a given Auction will continue to be out-of-whack, relative to the
accepted value of a given BB card.

Where does it all end ?

Perhaps in time, the same way the Coin and Stamp markets have deterioated to in recent years.

Also,
Here in Pennsylvania, live shows are flourishing. The Home Shows and the Gun Shows are huge. In fact the five baseball card shows at Valley
Forge these past 1 1/2 years have shared the Convention Center with either one of those shows on all 5 occassions. The lines for those two
shows are unbelievably long. While the lines at this BB card show have been mediocre at best.


T-Rex TED

[Tony Gordon]

I agree that the selection of pre-war at card shows has decreased. I remember 20 years ago seeing large amounts of pre-war at local mall shows. Though, I can't say that card shows are dead or anywhere near death. I attend local shows every weekend and can occasionally find a nice deal on pre-war and I almost always find some nice deals on post-war. I do acknowledge that many shows here in the Midwest and across the country have died. However, I can still find a show within an hour-and-a-half drive from my house with enough vintage dealers and customers to have a good time every single weekend. Sounds to me that Philly-area vintage dealers/collectors need to organize an alternative to the Hunt show.

[Rich Klein]

In the DFW area; we might have 1-2 passable shows a years. And a few 15-20 dealer type shows. But nothing big at all. And I would love to be in an area where I could actually go to a show occassionally

Rich

[peterose4hof]

Wow, that must be nice! In Florida, we have jack squat for shows and forget about finding pre-war stuff.

I agree that the selection of pre-war at card shows has decreased. I remember 20 years ago seeing large amounts of pre-war at local mall shows. Though, I can't say that card shows are dead or anywhere near death. I attend local shows every weekend and can occasionally find a nice deal on pre-war and I almost always find some nice deals on post-war. I do acknowledge that many shows here in the Midwest and across the country have died. However, I can still find a show within an hour-and-a-half drive from my house with enough vintage dealers and customers to have a good time every single weekend. Sounds to me that Philly-area vintage dealers/collectors need to organize an alternative to the Hunt show.

[E93]

Baltimore was a great venue. I would love for it to be in the regular rotation. But it is not that convenient for those on the West coast.
JimB

[tedzan]

The Baltimore venue has proven that it has a lot to offer. If they make it an annual event....THEY WILL COME. From the Midwest, West,
and the West coast....they will come.

The time has arrived for the National to be a semi-annual event. Regional major Shows are disappearing. My suggestion is that Baltimore
become a permanent Show in early September. And, the Chicago and California venues alternate annually in mid April.

This hobby is not experiencing the growth it enjoyed in the 1980's & 1990's. In my opinion the diminishing number of quality shows since
then has been one of the major factors causing this lack of growth. Growth is an important factor in sustaining the value of BB cards. If
you do not think this is important, just talk to your average collector of Coins and Stamps. The lack of growth in those hobbies have ad-
versly affected the values of those collectibles.

I've known John Broggi since 1981, I'm thinking that I'll contact him regarding this idea of two National's a year.

In any event, what's your thoughts on this idea ?


TED Z

[Leon]

Without giving it a lot more thought I like the idea of having 2 National shows. Somehow, I think it is not going to happen though.

[byrone]

The Baltimore venue has proven that it has a lot to offer. If they make it an annual event....THEY WILL COME. From the Midwest, West,
and the West coast....they will come.

The time has arrived for the National to be a semi-annual event. Regional major Shows are disappearing. My suggestion is that Baltimore
become a permanent Show in early September. And, the Chicago and California venues alternate annually in mid April.

This hobby is not experiencing the growth it enjoyed in the 1980's & 1990's. In my opinion the diminishing number of quality shows since
then has been one of the major factors causing this lack of growth. Growth is an important factor in sustaining the value of BB cards. If
you do not think this is important, just talk to your average collector of Coins and Stamps. The lack of growth in those hobbies have ad-
versly affected the values of those collectibles.

I've known John Broggi since 1981, I'm thinking that I'll contact him regarding this idea of two National's a year.

In any event, what's your thoughts on this idea ?


TED Z

In Canada, the Toronto Expo serves as the country's largest show and it is held twice annually, in late April/Early May and in November.

[tedzan]

Since you like my idea of two National Shows per year, how about running a Net54 poll on this ?

Or instruct me on how to conduct it, and I'll do it.

Regards,

TED Z

[Leon]

Hey Ted
Lets see if we can get the ole dinosaur to be able to do it. Heck, if Barry can do it anyone can do it. :)

What you do is you go start a thread.....at the bottom of the post there will be a little box that says something like "start a poll".....that is where you do it from. You actually hit the "submit reply" button and AFTER that it allows you to do the poll, so don't be afraid to hit the submit button before you see the poll options. We have a testing forum in the post war section, at the botton. I suggest you go over there and try one first. After you try it over there and get the hang of it you can come back over here and do it. I will then go lock that testing thread you started so no one gets a wise idea. :cool:

here is the link to the place with the testing forum...it is at the bottom

http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6

[barrysloate]

Every time I try to do a poll I forget how I did it last time and have to learn it all over again.:(