Mastro Auctions Mastro's Stuff?

[T206Collector]

Just got this email from Legendary Auctions.....

Legendary Auctions to Offer ?Collection of Hobby Pioneer Bill Mastro in Special December 8-9 Catalog Auction

Significant Collection Renowned ?for Impeccable Condition and Rarity

Legendary Auctions has been selected to handle the sale of The Bill Mastro Collection. As one of the hobby’s most widely recognized pioneers, Bill Mastro concentrated his collecting interests on iconic pieces of sports memorabilia that were among the world’s most prestigious in terms of both condition and display appeal. The collection of more than 800 lots will be auctioned as a stand-alone event in December. Bidding is scheduled to begin on Monday, November 22nd and close on Wednesday and Thursday December 8th and 9th. A few of the noteworthy items being sold from The Bill Mastro Collection include:

• A 1927 Babe Ruth Yankees payroll check – cashed the day Ruth hit his 60th Home Run;

• A signed handprint of Babe Ruth;

• A 1917-1921 Babe Ruth H&B game used bat;

• A 1927 Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig Barnstorming advertising poster;

• A 1915 Champion Boston Red Sox panoramic team photo featuring Babe Ruth;

• A 1910s “Turkish Trophies” display (in original frame) with Ty Cobb L-1 Leather;

• A 1909 “Colgan’s Chips” Honus Wagner advertising sign;

• A 1910 Addie Joss Day panorama;

• A 1903 Carl Horner American League team composite.

• An 1894 Temple Cup print;

• An 1884 “Climax Tobacco” composite with original mailing tube;

• A 1934 “Tour of Japan” team signed ball with original Tamazawa box;

• A Babe Ruth “Home Run Special” single signed ball;

• A 1942 “War Bond Effort” team signed ball;

• A Babe Ruth signed store model bat;

• A 1954 Wilson Wieners complete set (with backs) uncut sheet on advertising display;

• A 1928 “Fro Joy” Babe Ruth die-cut counter sign;

• A 1933 Goudey uncut sheet (24 cards) including Babe Ruth;

• A 1926 Champion New York Yankees Cosmo team panoramic photo;

• A 1912 Champion New York Giants oversized team photo featuring Christy Mathewson;

• A 1925 Colored World Series Kansas City vs. Hillsdale panoramic photo;

• A circa 1909 “Reach Sporting Goods” metal advertising sign;

• A circa 1909 Honus Wagner bronze statue – from Wagner’s estate;

• A 1910s “Ty Cobb Shoes” advertising sign;

• A 1920s Babe Ruth “Sporting News” die-cut advertising sign.


Experts at Legendary Auctions expect collectors to be extremely interested in owning a piece of The Bill Mastro Collection, for a number of reasons. “First of all, everyone recognizes the fact that Bill Mastro has been a major force in the hobby for decades, and it’s universally acknowledged that his contributions have been significant,” said Doug Allen, president, Legendary Auctions. Beyond that Allen said, Mastro was always first and foremost a collector, and what he loved to collect was perfection. “Quality items in pristine condition always attract considerable attention at auction,” said Allen. “Bill’s collection has always been one of the most meticulous in terms of condition and attention to detail. Collectors will pay a premium for items in exemplary grades of preservation such as this. The collection’s across-the-board, unparalleled quality truly makes every item one-of-a-kind.”
For more information on the auction of The Bill Mastro Collection call (708) 889-9380 or go to www.legendaryauctions.com.



17542 Chicago Avenue
Lansing, IL 60438
(708) 889-9380
www.legendaryauctions.com

[Rob D.]

I guess the timing prohibited Mr. Mastro from consigning to REA.

[Matt]

I wonder if they'd be willing to expose bidder records for this one after the fact...

[Anthony S.]

I love that first sentence in the first paragraph of the press release: "Legendary Auctions has been selected to handle the sale of The Bill Mastro Collection."

Must have been a rigorous selection process.

[Yankeefan51]

We have known Bill Mastro for more than 35 years. When we first entered the hobby he was extremely helpful. When we went through some difficult personal times and an illness 10 years ago, he was kind and supportive.

He always provided us with a fair assessment of value, and we never had an unpleasant experience with Mastro Steinbach or Mastro Auctions.
People make mistakes, and all of us sometimes do we things we regret.

In may ways, we are sad that Bill is selling his collection. He was a true collector and had an exceptional eye for great items.

Whatever happened or did not happen with regard to the accusations should be left to the Justice System.

In so many ways this is sad news for our hobby, On a personal basis, we wish Bill and his family well.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

[Rob D.]

I love that first sentence in the first paragraph of the press release: "Legendary Auctions has been selected to handle the sale of The Bill Mastro Collection."

Must have been a rigorous selection process.

Time after time our hobby proves that it truly is one of the best sources of unintentional humor.

[Matt]

Whatever happened or did not happen with regard to the accusations should be left to the Justice System.


Yes - no need to have concern about shill bidding in an auction of the person's items accused of it. It is a coincidence that they're going to be able to sell his stuff before the FBI report.

[Matthew H]

“Turkish Trophies” displays are one of the most beautiful Pisces in the hobby, imo

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes - no need to have concern about shill bidding in an auction of the person's items accused of it. It is a coincidence that they're going to be able to sell his stuff before the FBI report.

How do you know the timing of what the FBI is doing?

[Matt]

How do you know the timing of what the FBI is doing?

Fair enough. It seems as though this is an effort to sell off his collection before the report comes out, as if the items might somehow have less value after the report comes out; perhaps the FBI will beat the hammer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think there will be a report, if my understanding is correct there is a grand jury and either it will or it won't hand down an indictment, and the case will proceed from there.

[calvindog]

Poor Bill. It will really kill him to watch his stuff being sold while he is unable to work the computer and place bids on his lots. Oh well, luckily Doug is still there.

[Leon]

I think it's always a bit sad when a collector sells his collection. Bill has always been nice to me so that is the way I treat him too. If he did something wrong then let the justice system handle it. As for the long ago comment about "well, if someone shill bid you how could you be friendly with them?" I would say to that, that if I was targeted then yes, I would be very unhappy and sever the friendship. If it was a blanket issue and everyone was targeted, then I can still be friendly with that person but they will have to make restitution and pay their dues. I am sure some will take this all the wrong way and make jokes and sarcasm. That is ok too. If that is what gives someone enjoyment then more power to them. On a personal note it will be interesting to see what the Horner League Compostite goes for. From the small screenshot shown I would say mine is comparable, so it should be interesting. I wish Bill the best......

As for the selection of auction houses....a foregone conclusion. Legendary will do well with it.

[Rob D.]

I think it's always a bit sad when a collector sells his collection. Bill has always been nice to me so that is the way I treat him too. If he did something wrong then let the justice system handle it. As for the long ago comment about "well, if someone shill bid you how could you be friendly with them?" I would say to that, that if I was targeted then yes, I would be very unhappy and sever the friendship. If it was a blanket issue and everyone was targeted, then I can still be friendly with that person but they will have to make restitution and pay their dues. I am sure some will take this all the wrong way and make jokes and sarcasm. That is ok too. If that is what gives someone enjoyment then more power to them. On a personal note it will be interesting to see what the Horner League Compostite goes for. From the small screenshot shown I would say mine is comparable, so it should be interesting. I wish Bill the best......

As for the selection of auction houses....a foregone conclusion. Legendary will do well with it.

This isn't a comment on who might have done what in the case of Mastro Auctions but more of a general rule of mine: I assume that if I'm truly friends with someone, and they decide to engage in an activity in which they take advantage of people, I'll be spared because of that friendship. Otherwise I don't think they consider me a friend at all but rather just another mark/sucker.

(That's 100 percent sarcasm free, by the way.)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leon's comment reminds me of the line in Catch-22 when someone tells Yossarian he shouldn't take it personally that he is being shot at, because they are shooting at everyone.

[calvindog]

In fairness, I've often used the argument at a sentencing for clients convicted of fraud that they didn't target anyone individually, just everyone who crossed their paths or invested with them, whether it be friends, family or perfect strangers. I've found that such an argument has really resonated with judges who recognize this as a mitigating factor.

[Matthew H]

I wonder if worries of shill bidding will affect the prices realized...

[Exhibitman]

In fairness, I've often used the argument at a sentencing for clients convicted of fraud that they didn't target anyone individually, just everyone who crossed their paths or invested with them, whether it be friends, family or perfect strangers. I've found that such an argument has really resonated with judges who recognize this as a mitigating factor.

Thanks for the laugh, Jeff. It's been a long day...

If it was my client with all the 'stuff' swirling around his former business and former business partners I'd probably advise him to have a true third party sell it all rather than anyone with connections to my former business, just so there is no appearance of impropriety. Not saying anything will be wrong, just that as this thread shows the selection of auctioneers perhaps needlessly raises questions that might be better left unasked.

And I have to ask: does anyone think Mastro will have trouble getting paid on his consignments?

[Leon]

I am certainly not advocating my view onto others, only giving my opinion. I didn't say it was a good defense either, of course it isn't. I didn't say it was anything except my opinion. I understand it's not a popular one either. That's ok. At least you know where I stand on it, right or wrong. It's the way I feel about it. Hopefully, I am at least entitled to my opinion? regards

[Peter_Spaeth]

In fairness, I've often used the argument at a sentencing for clients convicted of fraud that they didn't target anyone individually, just everyone who crossed their paths or invested with them, whether it be friends, family or perfect strangers. I've found that such an argument has really resonated with judges who recognize this as a mitigating factor.

:D:D

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am certainly not advocating my view onto others, only giving my opinion. I didn't say it was a good defense either, of course it isn't. I didn't say it was anything except my opinion. I understand it's not a popular one either. That's ok. At least you know where I stand on it, right or wrong. It's the way I feel about it. Hopefully, I am at least entitled to my opinion? regards

Well of course you are entitled, I think it's just hard to understand why (hypothetically of course) being the target of a broader crime would be more palatable than being the target of a more focused one?

[Leon]

BTW, I am not defending anyone if they did something wrong. If they comitted a crime then they should pay the same penalty as anyone else. It's not that difficult to comprehend, really. I have the ability to see the difference between a legal issue and friendship though, and prefer to see it that way. If others prefer to not like someone because of something they did to them, even if it wasn't targeted, I see that point too. I am multi-tasking in that respect. best regards

[Leon]

Well of course you are entitled, I think it's just hard to understand why (hypothetically of course) being the target of a broader crime would be more palatable than being the target of a more focused one?

You said it in your question, Peter. I can seperate the fact that someone did something wrong to lots of people (hypothetically) and I was one of them OR the fact I was targeted? Yeah, to me I can distinguish between them. I am not saying anyone else should, but I do. regards

ps....and after some more thought on the whole subject I do reserve the right to change my mind at any time in the future :) I could see me being pissed about being ripped off (hypothetically of course)..

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's an interesting question, but I guess I'm with Yossarian on this one.

[oldjudge]

I would like to echo Bruce's comments. I have known Bill for a long time and found him to be a fun guy and a caring person. He has always been one of my favorite people in the hobby and I only wish him and his lovely family well.

[e107collector]

Does anyone know if there are any vintage cards in Bill's collection? If so, what can one expect?

Or did he mainly focus on memorabilia?

Thanks,
Tony

[slidekellyslide]

Well of course you are entitled, I think it's just hard to understand why (hypothetically of course) being the target of a broader crime would be more palatable than being the target of a more focused one?

I had my home loan through Countrywide and some knucklehead stole all of Countrywide's customers social security numbers...I was mad at Countrywide for this happening, but I'd be a lot madder if the knucklehead had only targeted me because then it would be personal.

[batsballsbases]

I to have know Bill for many years and I to like Leon reserve the right to let the justice system try and finish what they started. If you ask me do I believe something was going on absolutely! But do I also believe that many of the other auction houses are just as guilty of this pratice absolutely! It is very hard to know if you were ever "pushed up" in price without someone from the inside with that personal knowledge coming forward. For now as we know the bottom line is that MOST of the great items that we all want will be coming from some auction house. Private finds are very few in this day and age of the computer. Having just won 10 lots in the Legendary auction ,my feeling was that I paid a fair price for what I wanted. Bottom line for me is I set a personal limit for what the item is worth with the buyers premium and that it. If the item goes beyond that well good luck to the new owner. I had beat this subject to death over the years and it drove me crazy! Now I collect what I need and want with a price limit,this way I dont have to put the gun to my head every time I won an item and ask myself "WAS I JUST SHILLED":eek::eek:

[calvindog]

I had my home loan through Countrywide and some knucklehead stole all of Countrywide's customers social security numbers...I was mad at Countrywide for this happening, but I'd be a lot madder if the knucklehead had only targeted me because then it would be personal.

Except Countrywide didn't rip you off, a person did. And that person wasn't your good old friend. In fact he didn't know you at all.

[slidekellyslide]

Except Countrywide didn't rip you off, a person did. And that person wasn't your good old friend. In fact he didn't know you at all.

And you don't know if Bill Mastro shilled anything.

Yet.

[HRBAKER]

I to have know Bill for many years and I to like Leon reserve the right to let the justice system try and finish what they started. If you ask me do I believe something was going on absolutely! But do I also believe that many of the other auction houses are just as guilty of this pratice absolutely! It is very hard to know if you were ever "pushed up" in price without someone from the inside with that personal knowledge coming forward. For now as we know the bottom line is that MOST of the great items that we all want will be coming from some auction house. Private finds are very few in this day and age of the computer. Having just won 10 lots in the Legendary auction ,my feeling was that I paid a fair price for what I wanted. Bottom line for me is I set a personal limit for what the item is worth with the buyers premium and that it. If the item goes beyond that well good luck to the new owner. I had beat this subject to death over the years and it drove me crazy! Now I collect what I need and want with a price limit,this way I dont have to put the gun to my head every time I won an item and ask myself "WAS I JUST SHILLED":eek::eek:

So now you just assume that you are but no more than you are willing to be?

[calvindog]

And you don't know if Bill Mastro shilled anything.

Yet.

Actually, I do.

Regardless, how does your analogy fit in the discussion of the issue at hand?

[slidekellyslide]

Actually, I do.

Regardless, how does your analogy fit in the discussion of the issue at hand?

I wasn't really making an analogy, but Peter seemed shocked that someone would feel differently about being a victim of a broad crime compared to a focused crime. I merely gave an example of where it was pretty easy to feel different.

As for your knowledge of Bill Mastro's shilling if it is indeed true I hope we all get to see that proof some day.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yossarian: Those bastards are trying to kill me.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder: No one is trying to kill you sweetheart. Now eat your dessert like a good boy.
Yossarian: Oh yeah? Then why are they shooting at me Milo?
Dobbs: They're shooting at everyone Yossarian.
Yossarian: And what difference does that make?
Dobbs: Look Yossarian, suppose, I mean just suppose everyone thought the same way you do.
Yossarian: Then I'd be a damn fool to think any different.

[base_ball]

I wonder which auction house is going to be lucky enough to score the A. Alfred Taubman and DeDe Brooks collections?

[batsballsbases]

So now you just assume that you are but no more than you are willing to be?
Jeff,
That is correct!;););)

[rdixon1208]

I am certainly not advocating my view onto others, only giving my opinion. I didn't say it was a good defense either, of course it isn't. I didn't say it was anything except my opinion. I understand it's not a popular one either. That's ok. At least you know where I stand on it, right or wrong. It's the way I feel about it. Hopefully, I am at least entitled to my opinion? regards

Wrong. And uncharacteristically illogical.

[calvindog]

As for your knowledge of Bill Mastro's shilling if it is indeed true I hope we all get to see that proof some day.

If proof is shown in the form of multiple witnesses, documents and tapes at a later date, the usual suspects on the board will say, "well, I'm not convinced."

If proof is shown in the form of a guilty verdict at a later date, the usual suspects on the board will say, "the jury just doesn't understand our hobby."

If proof is shown in the form of a guilty plea at a later date, the usual suspects on the board will say, "they plead guilty but they just did so to spare the hobby embarrassment."

Everyone has an agenda. Mine is that I don't like getting ripped off, period. Some others may not mind getting ripped off because they perceive that they have made or could make more money with Mastro/Allen than they lost due to fraud. Just a thought.

[Leon]

Wrong. And uncharacteristically illogical.


Yes, I am sorry if I offended anyone with the way I feel. Illogical?

[tbob]

In fairness, I've often used the argument at a sentencing for clients convicted of fraud that they didn't target anyone individually, just everyone who crossed their paths or invested with them, whether it be friends, family or perfect strangers. I've found that such an argument has really resonated with judges who recognize this as a mitigating factor.

Kind of like clients who are convicted of murdering their parents asking for mercy because they are orphans. :rolleyes:

[rdixon1208]

Yes, I am sorry if I offended anyone with the way I feel. Illogical?

Of course you can choose to be friends with someone no matter what wrongs they've done to you. Nobody should be offended by that. But it kind of sounded like you were trying to justify it (even if you didn't need to) by saying that he ripped everyone off...not just you. That attempt at justification is what I thought was illogical.

[autograf]

I think it's funny that some people, unnamed, take the hardest line possible against Mastro/Mastronet/Allen/Legendary, yet still bid in their auctions. Hopefully none of those are on this thread.

I don't really have any feelings whatsoever about Bill Mastro and his collection. I'm neither sad nor glad he's selling. More stuff in the marketplace I guess but I don't know him personally although those who apparently do feel he's a decent enough guy.

We've debated this crap ad nauseum (sp?) here and didn't solve anything then and haven't solved anything here in this thread. The bottom line, for now, is all these people are walking around, running the same type of business they have for years. So....until the rubber meets the road, it's all speculation.

Articles by O'Keefe and gyrations on a message board don't put people in jail. Judges & Juries do......

[Leon]

Of course you can choose to be friends with someone no matter what wrongs they've done to you. Nobody should be offended by that. But it kind of sounded like you were trying to justify it (even if you didn't need to) by saying that he ripped everyone off...not just you. That attempt at justification is what I thought was illogical.

That justification would be crazy. There is no justifying shill bidding, if it happened. Personally, I don't know for sure that it did. I have my suspicions but I will leave them at that and let the justice system take care of it.

[Jewish-collector]

That's what this message board is for. Just to vent. Nothing gets solved on here. It's sort of like Rosh Hashanah. No new prayers are said. Same ones every year. :D:D:D:D:D

L'Shanah Tova to those who observe Rosh Hashanah.

[calvindog]

Tom, no need to be coy, you can call me out by name, I won't cry. And only on Net 54 do the victims get blamed more than the perps. Lucky for me Doug banned me. Maybe he got tired of ripping me off? Either way, it's all in good fun.

[slidekellyslide]

And only on Net 54 do the victims get blamed more than the perps.

Well the victims are obviously masochists so it's all good. :D

[autograf]

Jeff....thought you were banned but I know if there was a tough Cobb and/or Chase you might be in the game if you weren't.....you wouldn't be alone carrying the torch against them and bidding in their auctions though.....just one of the torch legs....

[David Atkatz]

Has nobody noticed that many of these items had been offered--and sold--in previous Mastro auctions? How is it that Bill owns them? A number of questions regarding the Mastro bidding process now come to mind.

[calvindog]

David, in order to begin answering that question you'd need to first define the word "sold." in Mastroland sometimes lots are "sold" over and over and over -- and never leave the owner's possession. Of course, this loose definition of "sold" is not solely limited to Mastro auctions but has been regularly applied in auctions favored by many consignors who post on Net 54.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought Mastro employees were allowed to bid in their auctions, and I recall being told Bill himself was bidding at a live auction at a National. So couldn't he simply have won the items?

[David Atkatz]

I'm sure he did "win" the items. Think all the bids were counted?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm sure he did "win" the items. Think all the bids were counted?

Don't they publish final prices? So if someone had bid higher but not won wouldn't that have come to light?

[David Atkatz]

I know of at least one item for which that was the case. I sold a 1929 Yankees signed ball through Mastro a number of years ago. A friend wanted it, but did not win. He noticed that he had entered a higher bid than the winner, and was told his had inadvertently not been counted. When he (an attorney) threatened legal action, the sale was nullified, the ball returned to me, and he was banned. (Surprise, surprise.) I know of this case because it was my item. Do you think it's the only one?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well of course I would be speculating as to whether there were other instances or it was just a mistake, but that is troubling.

[calvindog]

Mastro's "rules" are somewhat laughable as anyone who has ever consigned with them surely knows. The rules are the rules until they are not the rules - and the rules often change on the fly. Peter are you suggesting that Mastro employees were allowed to bid on their own items during an auction while they also learned who else had bid on the lots and what those bids were? Jeepers, that would make me mighty red in the face if I were an honest Mastro bidder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If that happened that would not be a good thing. All I was saying is that I could envision a scenario where an employee genuinely tried to win an item consigned by a third party.

[Orioles1954]

I can only speak for the auction house I work for. Sometimes, the same item has been auctioned twice due to non-payment in the first auction. We then will go to the consignor and either A.) return the item or B.) run the lot again a second time.

[David Atkatz]

If that happened that would not be a good thing. All I was saying is that I could envision a scenario where an employee genuinely tried to win an item consigned by a third party.

The "employee" happens to be the boss.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, was Bill the winning bidder on your Yankees ball?

[calvindog]

I can only speak for the auction house I work for. Sometimes, the same item has been auctioned twice due to non-payment in the first auction. We then will go to the consignor and either A.) return the item or B.) run the lot again a second time.

What if there are hidden reserves which are not met and the items are then given back to the consignor with false sales recorded? Does that ever happen?

[Orioles1954]

What if there are hidden reserves which are not met and the items are then given back to the consignor with false sales recorded? Does that ever happen?

I have never participated in such action. If I was asked to participate or knew of such actitivity happening I would resign immediately.

[Orioles1954]

I can only speak for the auction house I work for. Sometimes, the same item has been auctioned twice due to non-payment in the first auction. We then will go to the consignor and either A.) return the item or B.) run the lot again a second time.
I will also add C.) If one of us pesky writers accidentally messes up an item and we accept it as a return from the winning bidder (doesn't happen often).

[David Atkatz]

David, was Bill the winning bidder on your Yankees ball?

I have no way of knowing that. All I do know is that many of the items now being offered as coming from his collection were last seen being "sold" in a Mastro auction.

[Shoeless Moe]

I just hope it goes to a jury trial, and then the jury has 20 minutes increments to deliberate and cast a not guilty vote and then deep in the night once there are 20 minutes without a not guilty vote they can vote Guilty and call it a night!

[autograf]

+1..........funny

[Exhibitman]

I don't have a problem with an auction house employee winning an item offered in the auction; the more legit bidders, the better for the consignor [assuming arguendo that the consignor is actually paid for his lot :D ]. I can see, though, how allowing the auctioneer to bid could allow the auction house to shill bid the item, so unless a third party is administering the auction in a manner that somehow prevents the auctioneer from seeing the max bids of the bidders, it would be problematic to allow the bidding.

[iggyman]

I don't have a problem with an auction house employee winning an item offered in the auction; the more legit bidders, the better for the consignor [assuming arguendo that the consignor is actually paid for his lot :D ]. I can see, though, how allowing the auctioneer to bid could allow the auction house to shill bid the item, so unless a third party is administering the auction in a manner that somehow prevents the auctioneer from seeing the max bids of the bidders, it would be problematic to allow the bidding.

It's big-time "problematic," could lead to a bunch of bad scenarios. For instance, what if employee "X" sees an E224 Honus Wagner in the upcoming auction. Well, employee "X" already owns an E224 Wagner, but alas, he is considering parting with it. What is to prevent Mr. "X" from shill bidding the Wagner all the way to the max bid and therefore probably benefiting when the time comes to sell his own Wagner. Another scenario is where you have two employees that have become the best of buddies (BFFL). Employee #1 consigns a lot to the auction house, employee #2 is a good guy and helps the lot along with some timely bidding. Luckily, stuff like that does not happen anymore :eek::eek::eek:.

Lovely Day...

[calvindog]

It's big-time "problematic," could lead to a bunch of bad scenarios. For instance, what if employee "X" sees an E224 Honus Wagner in the upcoming auction. Well, employee "X" already owns an E224 Wagner, but alas, he is considering parting with it. What is to prevent Mr. "X" from shill bidding the Wagner all the way to the max bid and therefore probably benefiting when the time comes to sell his own Wagner. Another scenario is where you have two employees that have become the best of buddies (BFFL). Employee #1 cosigns a lot to the auction house, employee #2 is a good guy and helps the lot along with some timely bidding. Luckily, stuff like that does not happen anymore :eek::eek::eek:.

Lovely Day...

Iggy, comeon, obviously "Mr. X", when he's not saving the children or being an all-around great guy who has always treated me well, would never knowingly steal from his friends or violate federal laws. You're acting as if people in this hobby would violate the laws of our country as easily as they'd change their underwear. Sorry but you're just a bit too sarcastic and cynical for me today.

[brian1961]

I share the feelings of those who said that they are saddened by the news that Bill Mastro is selling his collection. That is life. Happens to all of us, sooner or later. I guess the empathy stems from my own strong feelings for the items I have worked hard to collect and thoroughly enjoy. As a collector, it is hard to say "good-bye". Since Bill is only in his mid-late 50s, I would imagine it is tough. However, our feelings can change for the items we own. That has sure happened to me. But all of them at once? No way.

My first recollection of Mr. Mastro was watching him drop any and all bidders for items he wanted at the huge 1972 Midwest Sports Convention in Troy, Michigan. The auctioneer would start the bidding for most of the items, all considered very choice today, at a dollar or two. The bidding would hit three bucks, then Bill would loudly call out "TEN", in a defiant and powerful East Coast dialect. Further bidding ceased. No one wanted any part of trying to go head-to-head with him. Lionel Carter commented about that auction, "Bill is quite a showman". I agreed. I found it quite comical and entertaining. Then again, I was at my first adult show and not bidding against him. Of course, no one was forced to stop bidding. Bill did not threaten anyone, or put a gun to someone's head and suggest they cease bidding. He just blew them away with convincing bids, and like Keller and Keller, he meant business.

Most of my dealings with Bill were very positive. Some of the finest pieces in my collection I will point with pride that I got them from Bill Mastro. As I understand it, for a time he was one of the key consignors of choice items to Alan Rosen's quarterly SCD auctions. He bought collections and sold them. Sometimes he kept an item or two that particularly struck his fancy. His taste was impeccable. From his consultant position at Sotheby's for the auction of the Copeland Collection in 1991, the rest is history. I should think that any of the items on that list in the Legendary article will draw several very serious combatants and receive sufficient bids to garner a befitting price. They're certainly all genuine. If I wanted something on that list, I would be a chump to avoid it. Legendary will give the pieces a deluxe treatment in the catalog. Hopefully, they will do the same with mine. Usually they get it right and do it justice.

Whatever the outcome of the proceedings, I feel very tired and depressed about the matter and what it has done to our hobby, and the way the general public thinks about it. When wrong is done, yes, it should be exposed and dealt with. Hopefully, you or I will never step out of line. Just think, the five Girl Scout leaders that embezzled five grand from the yearly cookie sales got caught. It happened in Florida, and made the front page in my local South Bend Tribune. The guy in charge of the South Bend crime-watchers reward fund turned himself in to the police station, having confessed to embezzling 100 grand. So, watch your own step; it may be "A LULU".

Be that as it may, some of you sit there and beat your breasts with dozens of denouncements. Are you really that happy that he might just really "get it!" Then what if most all the prospective new collectors and dare I say investors decide, "oh brother, this hobby is all just a bunch of crooks. Better choose something else to enjoy."


Furthermore, let us say for the sake of the discussion that shill bidding indeed took place. What if the interpretation of that finding by John Q. Public, including all well-heeled newer collectors is that ALL OF OUR CARDS AND MEMORABILIA IS NOW WAY OVERPRICED BECAUSE THE FBI FOUND SHILL BIDDING? Every current value becomes suspect as people throw the 'ol baby out with the bathwater. You could put on a brave face and say, "I collected these because I loved them so much. I do not care what they are worth." Yeah, sure. No one, and I mean no one, wants their 500-dollar item to become a 150-dollar item in two weeks. If the value of your prized item dropped by over half, you will not be able to look at it with the same enjoyment again. In the end, I hope the findings are nowhere near as bad as some of you proclaim. If so, we will all have to help pick up the pieces.

Oh yeah, I suppose I better mention the whole reason I stuck my nose in this thread. Go to the Robert Edward Auction website, click on "LINKS", then go to the listing for the New York Daily News "I-Team Blog". From there scroll down to the article Michael O'Keefe penned on September 1, 2010 entitled, "Tumult continues in memorabilia world". Read it very carefully and scrutinize the quotes. One observation I had is that there was none of the usual parting shots from Mr. O'Keefe. Somehow, I would not be surprised if by reading it, a few of you will place a bar of soap in your mouth, and even delete a few comments.

It is still a free country, kinda, sorta. Perhaps Leon could enlighten us as to the extent that we are free to rip someone up one side and down the other.

Hopefully, your spare hour of reading this long harangue was worthwhile.

Hang in there. Respectfully, Brian Powell

[glchen]

I don't know what to say, and I'm a relative newcomer to the hobby. However, I equate shill bidding and the like to PEDs in baseball. If you're caught, you should be banned, and if you're tainted, no Hall of Fame (or "Most Prominent Collectors in the Hobby") for you. Just like Bonds and Clemens sit in isolation, Mastro should do the same. There's little sympathy for people who could have had it all. The sport is bigger than Bonds/Clemens, and the hobby is bigger than Bill Mastro. Saying that seeing people facing justice for these crimes brings shame to the hobby and will drive away new collectors is something I disagree with. Just like cleaning up baseball is something that needs to be done, same thing with the hobby. When people feel more comfortable that the hobby is not full of crooks, it will continue to grow.

[HRBAKER]

I'm not sure why it is "sad" when anyone decides to sell their collection.

[calvindog]

Brian, you have an interesting take on the Mastro investigation. You primarily believe that the federal investigation of Mastro will be bad for our investments if the public learns that Bill Mastro is a crook. (Yes, that's probably true -- and it most certainly will cost me money if collectors who might be buying my cards in the future believe that they're overvalued due to such news.) So the alternative is that the laws of our country should not be applied to Bill Mastro and Doug Allen because such an application will cost all of us money? Apparently you and some other Net 54 members believe that. I don't. I'd rather live in a country where the laws are applied equally to all. If that means I'll lose some money, well, I'll be pointing a finger not at the federal government who is enforcing those laws but at the people who violated the laws. And take this from someone who earns a living fighting the government.

If charges of fraud are made and proven, yes, we'll have to 'pick up the pieces' as you say but perhaps it will be a first step in ridding our hobby of the rampant fraud which infects it. Imagine a hobby where you know that when a lot sells in an auction it really sold for that price, that you weren't defrauded along the way. Imagine a Net 54 where people with financial interests tied to wrongdoers won't contort themselves in all kinds of positions in an effort to divert and stifle criticism of the wrongdoers. I can. And at least until I'm banned from here I'll keep speaking out about these issues.

[calvindog]

I'm not sure why it is "sad" when anyone decides to sell their collection.

My condolences and prayers to anyone who has recently decided to sell his collection.

[Rich Klein]

And if somone could find this post; it's in my memory but I could not figure out how to find this specific post.

My old friend Brett Domue, posted a whole bunch of years ago about noticing the exact same description in Mastro auctions a few years apart. I think the 1st item was from a Mastro/Steinbach catalog and the next one was about 3-4years later

Just an interesting take on the matter

Rich

[Peter_Spaeth]

Agree with Gary and Jeff. IF people in the hobby committed fraud, we should be concerned about seeing that they are brought to justice and that restitution is paid to their victims, and not about the values of our own collections.

[Leon]

I'm not sure why it is "sad" when anyone decides to sell their collection.

In my opinion, and because I am a die hard collector myself and enjoy the hobby so much, I know it will be sad when I sell my collection (regardless of the reason). That is why it is sad to me.

[sago]

I hope Bill got a good deal on the commission.

I can't wait to see the descriptions. Is it going to be vintage Bigelow, or more the Don West approach?

I'd speculate that this was worked out over 3 years ago that when the time came, Doug would get the collection.

Anything but that would have been a large slap in the face, and potentially disastrous for Legendary. Afterall, why would anyone consign there if the former owner, that left on good terms wouldn't? (former owner, who left on good terms? I should write their press release):rolleyes:

[Orioles1954]

Good grief. Collecting baseball cards is a fun hobby and I enjoy make my living in them. However, at the end of the day it's just that....a nice diversion. If we understand that everything we own is on temporarily loan to us, we won't need to get emotionally attached and ascribe silly emotions (IMHO) such as "sad" to parting with them.

[barrysloate]

You can't generalize whether it's a sad event if someone sells his collection. If you're about to foreclose on your house and you have to sell your collection to save it, it very well may be sad. But if you are just tired of collecting and don't get the excitement from it you once did, then selling it is just the next step in your life. Just about everybody sells his stuff at some point, for any number of reasons.

[HRBAKER]

That was what I meant. I can understand when Leon says he would be sad to sell his collection but I found it odd that others mentioned their "sadness" at Bill selling his. Life moves on.

[calvindog]

I think it's always a bit sad when a collector sells his collection. Especially if he's doing so in order to remain one step ahead of the posse.

[barrysloate]

Well, Bill may be selling his collection to pay his legal bills. I'm sure they will be astronomical.

[timzcardz]

Oh yeah, I suppose I better mention the whole reason I stuck my nose in this thread. Go to the Robert Edward Auction website, click on "LINKS", then go to the listing for the New York Daily News "I-Team Blog". From there scroll down to the article Michael O'Keefe penned on September 1, 2010 entitled, "Tumult continues in memorabilia world". Read it very carefully and scrutinize the quotes. One observation I had is that there was none of the usual parting shots from Mr. O'Keefe. Somehow, I would not be surprised if by reading it, a few of you will place a bar of soap in your mouth, and even delete a few comments.


Thank you for pointing this out. Very enlightening, especially the last paragraph of the statement:
"There exists a small group of self-serving retailers, chat room participants and media reporters, with their right to free speech, who insist on initiating unwarranted, reckless and exaggerated rumors intended to strike an unnecessary offensive blow to our beloved industry. With the emergence of the Collectible Trade Association of America, these critics can now expect an appropriate and powerful response."


And a shortcut to the full article for anyone else interested:
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/2010/09/tumult-continues-in-memorabili.html

[calvindog]

Tim, that last paragraph is actually unintentionally ironic and hilarious at the same time.

[timzcardz]

Tim, that last paragraph is actually unintentionally ironic and hilarious at the same time.

WOW! That is little critical of you! :eek:

You can now expect an appropriate and powerful response. :rolleyes:

[Leon]

We aren't chat room participants, we are a forum. Nothing to worry about guys...Nothing to see...move along now.

My only issue with some on our board is that they seem to take our opinions on issues as we are defending fraudulent activity. That is the farthest thing from the truth. No where and no time have I ever condoned fraudulent activity or said that perpetrators of said fraud should not be punished. No one on this board will get banned for leading the charge against fraud. However, just like I was quoted a few years ago in the newspaper article I do like to put things in perspective. If ALL I do is agonize over the hobby then it's probably not the place for me. If I can mostly have fun and still be looking out and reporting the bad stuff, then that is ok. To each their own though and I guess if someone wants to continually agonize over their hobby it's their right to do so. Rebuttal embellishment may start now........

ps...as for the "trade association"......the way it was trying to be done is silly on so many levels.

[calvindog]

Agonize? Does it seem like I'm agonizing over Mastro and Allen being investigated for their rampant fraud? In contrast, every day is like a party! In fact, I spend my days holding my sides in while laughing so hard -- like Felix the Cat.

Rebuttal embellisment [sic] concluded.

[iggyman]

Leon, can you kindly direct me to the "chat room participant board" Marshall was referencing??? I'm sorry, but it's plain as a pikestaff. I'm sure some Armani wearing association attorney is taking down notes as we speak. But not to worry, it is only done to ensure the integrity of this great industry.

New Net54 logo:
24703

Lovely Day...

[ElCabron]

It's clear that Jeff is ready to fight....for his right....to paaaaaaaaaaaartyyyyyyyyyy!!!!

-Ryan

[Peter_Spaeth]

Agonize? Does it seem like I'm agonizing over Mastro and Allen being investigated for their rampant fraud? In contrast, every day is like a party! In fact, I spend my days holding my sides in while laughing so hard -- like Felix the Cat.

Rebuttal embellisment [sic] concluded.

here he is

[Leon]

Agonize? Does it seem like I'm agonizing over Mastro and Allen being investigated for their rampant fraud?


Yes. That is all you seem to think about. Or am I not allowed to have an opinion in the "Lichtman Universe". Look, if they committed fraud then they should pay their just dues, just like you or I. Can I make that anymore clear for you counselor?

[iggyman]

Felix from the Topps 1972 in-action subset!

Lovely Day...

[martyogelvie]

"Is this where the LINE STARTS for the Collector's Trade Association???"

[calvindog]

Yes. That is all you seem to think about. Or am I not allowed to have an opinion in the "Lichtman Universe". Look, if they committed fraud then they should pay their just dues, just like you or I. Can I make that anymore clear for you counselor?

How about I get to determine what my own thoughts are? And it's not my universe, this is yours. You get to do whatever you want, including threatening to ban me. I don't have that great luxury. Not that I'd want it, obviously.

[Leon]

How about I get to determine what my own thoughts are? And it's not my universe, this is yours. You get to do whatever you want, including threatening to ban me. I don't have that great luxury. Not that I'd want it, obviously.

Just being a total pain in my rear won't get you banned from the board. Getting way too personal and not stopping will, which you don't do. I have no problem with you leading the charge and of course, you can think whatever you want to. There has probably been less than 1 person a year banned and they went way overboard, personally.

[iggyman]

Ring-a-ding-ding! While you guys have been chatting away, Bruce just scored another item for his collection.





And another!


Lovely Day...

[calvindog]

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/4976539693/" title="felix-the-cat-laughs.thumbnail by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/4976539693_ee0fdd1f88_z.jpg" width="375" height="600" alt="felix-the-cat-laughs.thumbnail" /></a>

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff, you are no Peter Chao or Marshall Barkman.

[teetwoohsix]

Is the fraud that is referred to in the hobby mostly directed at memorabilia, and not so much with cards? It seems like when I read about fraud, it seems to be mostly about sigs, jerseys, bats, balls, etc..

I know alot of people have said there are trimmed cards in high grade TPG holders, but other than that I don't seem to hear too much about "fraud" when it comes to cards. Am I wrong on how I'm reading all of this?

Thanks-Clayton

[docpatlv]

Clayton,

I think the reference is to fraud in the way some auctions are run (i.e. shill bidding).

Mike

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks Mike. I do understand that's what's going on, but when I went to the REA site to read the I-Team news there was an article about Salvatore Argo being busted for trafficking counterfeits. This got me thinking about the other frauds that are going on in the hobby, which seems to be memorabilia that is not authentic being sold as authentic.

Sincerely,Clayton

[JasonL]

Poor Bill. It will really kill him to watch his stuff being sold while he is unable to work the computer and place bids on his lots. Oh well, luckily Doug is still there.

I don't like to use this jargon much, but ROTFLMFAO!!!!!
My goodness, thank you Jeff. That did provide some much-needed jovialityness to my day.

I was thinking along those same lines when I read the original post, something along the lines of an addition to this excerpt:

"Bidding is scheduled to begin on Monday, November 22nd..."

Shill bidding will begin shortly thereafter.
:D:D:D

[brian1961]

So the alternative is that the laws of our country should not be applied to Bill Mastro and Doug Allen because such an application will cost all of us money? Apparently you and some other Net 54 members believe that. I don't. I'd rather live in a country where the laws are applied equally to all. If that means I'll lose some money, well, I'll be pointing a finger not at the federal government who is enforcing those laws but at the people who violated the laws. And take this from someone who earns a living fighting the government.

calvindog----I did not think I was coming across as if the laws of our land should not be applied to someone who is prominent or wealthy. Perish the thought.

In the first place many of you speak as if Mr. Mastro has already been found guilty of every single accusation. I'd rather live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. Then again, all you have to do is say, "OJ". I also believe Bruno Richard Hauptmann was innocent, and our country's judicial system just wanted a culprit. Still, tarring and feathering Bill and Doug verbally based on what the FBI is investigating them for with the understanding a la innuendo that any and all levels of questionable activity must of a certainty have been duly conducted with a system as thorough and far-reaching as the Mafia is reckless. When the findings come out, then I'm sure the leather-lunged will belt it out. (EXCEPT ME; I'M GETTING TI-RED OF THIS. ONE OR TWO OF YOU ARE PROBABLY FEELING THE SAME WAY ABOUT ME!)

Furthermore, WHILE I IN NO WAY CAN SPEAK FOR EVERYONE WHO WON AN ITEM IN A MASTRO AUCTION, during the course of the years that I participated in a Mastro Auction, and won several items, never did I get the impression that I overpaid. In some instances, I almost won them cheaply. I can think of several choice pieces that I gave up on, only to truly regret not bidding higher, as the items have since skyrocketed.

However, I must admit that I never put in an up to or ceiling bid. Why? I have never trusted that strategy of winning an item. It would be too easy for someone at the auction house to shill. Now cal, that is my own philosophy of bidding for any item, from EVERY auction house. I will gladly give up a great night's sleep to keep on top of the auction action.




If charges of fraud are made and proven, yes, we'll have to 'pick up the pieces' as you say but perhaps it will be a first step in ridding our hobby of the rampant fraud which infects it. Imagine a hobby where you know that when a lot sells in an auction it really sold for that price, that you weren't defrauded along the way.

----Calvindog, you speak as if most of the items were cranked due to shilling. Granted, by all means, I agree with you in the respect that you should only pay what was fairly bid. I feel the buyer's premiums have gotten too high, but that's an industry issue. Imagine a Net 54 where people with financial interests tied to wrongdoers won't contort themselves in all kinds of positions in an effort to divert and stifle criticism of the wrongdoers. Cal-----just so you know, in the small chance you should care, I only have one minor item consigned to Legendary's November auction. I can. And at least until I'm banned from here I'll keep speaking out about these issues.

The major issue that I am concerned with is the doctoring of cards. Though I do not collect uniforms, the finding by the Baseball Hall of Fame that the uniform of Joe Jackson was a fake was pretty interesting. I think with the value of these sports artifacts at a salty level on par with the Dead Sea, the temptation for fraud of various sorts arises within all kinds of con artists.


We shall see but we shall see. Thanks to Leon's reassurance, we can all continue to rant and even praise in freedom. Thanks for your perspective, calvindog. I sincerely admire and appreciate a good watchdog. If I have the wrong idea, I do want to be set straight. ---Brian Powell

[iggyman]

If that's the case, then lets forget all about Felix the Cat. Afterall, when was the last time he saved an industry? Jeff, I really do think that this little guy is more appropriate for you:

24737

"Here I come to save the day!"

[Exhibitman]

As far as the damage to the card market presumed from the fallout of the FBI investigation, I am with Jeff on this: if that is the price of cleaning house and deterring further misadventures, so be it. I am a collector--I don't plan to sell my cards so whether the cards are 'worth' any specific price is meaningless to me; it is just theoretical, like appreciation on my house. Besides, if prices drop markedly I can buy more cards. :D

Price drop = calamity = investor

Price drop = opportunity to pick up more stuff = collector

[calvindog]

Adam, exactly. Which is why you won't be found twisting yourself into a pretzel with 'logic' trying to support the Mastros of this world, solely to protect either your investment, your possible future income, your potential job opportunity, or your good friends who have always been nice to you while they rob you blind.

It's not hard to pick out the people with the transparent agendas; just follow the dollars.

[Leon]

If I have heard it from one board member I have heard it from a hundred.......So many one trick ponies on this board, especially lawyers from NY :p. I hope they enjoy the hobby as much as I do. Giddy up....

[calvindog]

I'd rather be an honest pony than a Mastro monkey any day. :)

[Leon]

I'd rather be an honest pony than a Mastro monkey any day. :)

I've been called worse by better people.

[Orioles1954]

The only problem I have with what Jeff is saying in this thread is that perhaps he is painting with too broad a brush in casting dispersions on a nameless few. Honestly, I think only a handful of people who read or lurk on this board have a vested or personal interest in what Legendary/Mastro does. Those who do though, should be taken behind the wood shed :)

[calvindog]

I've been called worse by better people.

I agree.

[Kenny Cole]

I sure do wish I could get Roseanne Roseanadanna's take on all this. I'm sure she could clear it all up with just a few short and insightful comments. Is it too late to send condolences to her family?

[4815162342]

It's always something!

[FUBAR]

OK, time for me to chime in on things, not that it matters....

I don't know Mr. Mastro, probably never will. If he broke the law, that is a decision he made personally and he should suffer the consequences.

Is it sad to me that he is selling his collection. No. Collections are always being sold , that is how we, as collectors acquire new items. It is an ever evolving circle. It is life, when we have wealth and health, we buy things. When we don't have those things, we sell.

To me the only times it is sad is a) selling because you are preparing your estate as your time is coming. or b) some greedy bitch is taking her half of something she doesn't care a damn thing about and just wants money!!

Now i don't understand why this thread has turned into hostility, i didn't read any posts that suggested attacks should be made and it turning personal. 1 of the two should just be the bigger man and not comment further, then the problem is solved. Or keep poking each other if you are enjoying it!

But its not making for good reading.