19th century Part 2

[GaryPassamonte]

This thread will expand on Jeff's topic a bit. Which 19th century sets or subsets are the most difficult to obtain an example from, exclusive of cost, and which types have the fewest surviving cards? These are two questions that may or may not have the same answer. Possible responses could include Four Base Hits, Just So, Lone Jack, Hess, Dog's Head, OJ California League, etc. Although no one knows the definitive answers, I was just curious about the combined experience of the board.

[barrysloate]

Most of the sets you cited have something in common: in almost every case, whatever players have survived are either unique or darn close. Nearly every player known in Four Base Hits is unique, although we know of two Mike Kellys. Just So has about a dozen catalogued players, and maybe one or two of them have two examples known. I also believe that the OJ California League players are unique, although perhaps there is a player with two known cards.

The question I have is why have so few survived? You would have to think a fair number of them were distributed, so why are they so terribly rare? I don't know the answer.

[oldjudge]

Great question Gary. I can speak to a few of the issues. As far as I know, all Dogs Head N173s are unique with the exception of Kelly (two copies). California League N172 vary. Some are unique, some have two copies, Levy and Perrier have, I believe, three. Barry has already said that there are two 4BH Kellys. I think I have seen duplicate copies of one or two others but I wouldn't swear to it. I have seen multiple copies of Lone Jacks. My view is that they do not belong in this group. S F Hess California League photographic cards are also very scarce with only a few copies, at most, of most known players. Again, Levy seems to be the most readily available.

[barrysloate]

Levy is most prevalent among the N321 Hess color issue. Is he also seen frequently in N338?

[GaryPassamonte]

Barry,
Is it possible some of the rarest issues were not really issued at all, but were samples or "test" issues, or possibly produced in very limited numbers, as were CdVs, to be given to the players pictured as mementos?

[oldjudge]

Barry-If that is the photographic issue(I'm bad at remembering set numbers) then yes. He is the most common. Must have been a lot of Jewish collectors back then.

[GaryPassamonte]

Barry,
I believe Levy has two poses in N338-1, which might account for his being more "available." Personally, I think N338-1 cards are either unique or have two cards per player. In Lipset's 19th century Encyclopedia, he stated only 16 players were known and eleven of those were in Burdick's collection. In the 27 years since the issue of the Encyclopedia only a few new players have been added to the checklist.

[barrysloate]

Gary- interesting point, and I agree that with these very rare sets there was some specific reason for so limited a distribution. But are you saying that a Four Base Hits was issued only so friends of the tobacco company could get a sample? I doubt that; I think they were designed for distribution but maybe something happened between the time they planned the set and when it was ready for circulation.

Jay- I was thinking the same thing. It's a very Jewish set if Levy is double or triple printed in both color and photographic.

[oldjudge]

Gary-I only recall one copy of Levy, but I guess two is possible. However, I know I have seen three copies of one. I remember this from when I collected them.

[barrysloate]

N338-1 is similar and I agree nearly all of the players are likely unique. And if there were a new find of them I would expect at least one or two would be new to the checklist.

[benchod]

La shana tova to all the members of the tribe

[E93]

One other very rare issue, though perhaps not quite as rare as those mentioned above is the N167 Old Judges. I believe there are only 4-6 known of about ten of the twelve catalogued cards and less (if any) of two others.
JimB

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1600/n167cocoronsgc20c.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/n167cocoronsgc20c.jpg/)

[rman444]

Another tough set - 1886 J Wood Cabinets. Each example is near unique.

<a href="http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/rman444/prewar/Cabinets%20and%20Large%20Items/?action=view&current=woodward.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/rman444/prewar/Cabinets%20and%20Large%20Items/woodward.jpg" border="0" alt="1886 Joseph Wood Cab John Ward"></a>

[rhettyeakley]

"Four Base Hits, Just So, Lone Jack, Hess, Dog's Head, OJ California League"

Don't forget about K-bats Team Cabinets, Large Gypsy Queens, NY/Mets K-bats, M117 Sporting Times, Red Stocking Cigars and the Welton Cigars cards.

[uffda51]

http://photos.imageevent.com/uffda51/19thcenturycabinetcards/websize/Beaneater.JPG

I believe that the Chickering imperial cabinets are also each one-of-a-kind.

I can understand a team or individual commissioning a photography studio to create a commemorative set as gifts, resulting in a unique group of cards, since the studio would have been paid for its work. But those issues which advertise a product and yet appear to be impossibly rare are more of a mystery. Unpopular brands and limited distribution explain the dearth of some, but not all, of these issues.

Some of the issues we are talking about seem similar to Tango Egg cards. A plan was hatched;), some cards were printed, and then something happened that changed the plan.

The N167s seem to me to relate to N172 the way 1951 Topps relate to 1952 and onward Topps. An initlal small-scale run followed by a major change in design and an extended run, with smaller tweaks in design, over multiple seasons.

Another obscure issue is J.U. Stead.
http://photos.imageevent.com/uffda51/19thcenturycabinetcards/websize/JUSTEADcab.jpg

My guess is that these are another set of one-offs from a photography studio unless somebody out there is aware of multiple copies.

[rman444]

Bruce - the Chickering imperial cabinets are all amazing. Were any of the images ever used in a card set?

[Bicem]

Bruce - the Chickering imperial cabinets are all amazing. Were any of the images ever used in a card set?

e107

[benchod]

Correct Jeff,
Need someone to post the e107

[Leon]

Jimmy Collins is also on the League Composite from Horner...

[benchod]

Beautiful Leon,
The e107 uses the Chickering pose though

[uffda51]

The Chickering cabinets do have variations in their mounts, which seems unusual to me. Maybe they were not created as a group but were individually commissioned. Lew Lipset's 2003 auction had 12, all belonging to Jouett Meekin. It makes you wonder why he ended up with the 12.

[tiger8mush]

Bruce - the Chickering imperial cabinets are all amazing. Were any of the images ever used in a card set?

M101-1 (if you consider those cards)

this is from the b/s/t ...

you can see "photo by chickering" in the bottom left corner

[paul]

I wonder whether some of these sets were point of sale materials -- distributed to store owners to display and promote the product. I believe that was the case with Boston Garters and it could be true of some of these 19th c. cards.

[E93]

Craig,
Nice card!
JimB

[rman444]

Love all of those card images lined up like that. Great stuff!

[Bicem]

wow Craig, amazing piece!!!

[benchod]

Hey just to clarify the e107 is not mine; I just borrowed the scan
The Chickering on the other hand...........

[Bicem]

I didn't even see anything after the Chickering... http://vbbc.forumotion.com/users/1413/17/23/61/smiles/601991.gif

[benchod]

Gotta love Bruce's Duffy
Interesting that they do have different color mounts

[rman444]

I think Terry has an imperial Chickering as well. Can't remember the player, but it was the same type of mount as Bruce's.

[Joe_G.]

I love the black mount as well, that Duffy is flat gorgeous and a longtime non-Detroit favorite of mine. It is not unusual to see different style or color cabinet mounts. We see it with N173s, Police Gazette, Tomlinson Studio, etc.

[ghostmarcelle]

Sliding Billy

[Bicem]

good God these Chickerings are nice!!!

[uffda51]

NICE looking Sliding Billy Hamilton!

[bh3443]

After reading about the record holders below in the Players League, I was wondering if any of these stars are represented in the series on a Players League team. The cards from this league would be a great and rare sub-set!
Here's the info:
The Players League Triple Crown leaders were Hall-of-Famer Roger Connor with 14 home runs, Pete Browning with a .373 batting average, and Hardy Richardson with 146 RBI. For pitchers, Mark Baldwin had 34 wins, Silver King had a 2.69 ERA, and Mark Baldwin struck out 211 batters.

On June 21 King threw an unofficial eight-inning no-hitter.

Oddly, in its one season of operation, the Players League saw seven triple plays: the Giants on June 14, the Red Stockings on June 30, the Pirates on July 15, the Pirates again on July 30, the Burghers on August 15, Ward's Wonders on September 6, and the Bisons on September 29.[1


I found Connor, O'Keefe, Rourke and Comiskey so far...... what a nice group of cards!

[oldjudge]

Bill-We discuss these cards in the 1890 chapter of the Old Judge book. Pick up a copy-you'll enjoy it

[bh3443]

Thank you! I will really enjoy seeing this in the book. Thanks for your help.
Regards, Bill