Question for RAW card sellers?

[bobbyw8469]

I recently sold a raw card on Ebay. The buyer sent it off to PSA and PSA claimed the card was trimmed. Basically, do raw card sellers guarantee that PSA will grade the card or is that a given?

[HRBAKER]

I'm not a seller but I think if you are this is the world you are operating in today. It's up to you, sounds like there was no expressed guarantee. Probably makes good sense from a business and feedback standpoint to stand behind your product as long as you are getting the same card back.

[bobbyw8469]

I told him to send it back, and it had to be the same card. I wonder if it had graded an 8 or 8.5, if he would have paid me the extra money (he paid about the price of a 5)?

[HRBAKER]

I told him to send it back, and it had to be the same card. I wonder if it had graded an 8 or 8.5, if he would have paid me the extra money (he paid about the price of a 5)?

I understand what you are saying but that's not a relevant point to me. If you wanted "8" money in that instance you could have had it graded. At least it does not sound like he is trying to get the grading fees from you too. Some buyers would. You left the potential "8 or 8.5" money on the table when you decided not to have it graded.

[lharri3600]

LOL no way!!!!!!!!!

I told him to send it back, and it had to be the same card. I wonder if it had graded an 8 or 8.5, if he would have paid me the extra money (he paid about the price of a 5)?

[Pup6913]

What kinda card was it???

[joeadcock]

I would probably take the card back as you indicate. I would then from now on indicate in the description that you do not take returns(IF YOU DO not want to take returns). Personally, I would take the card back(as I am sure you would) because you did not intend to sell a trimmed card. This of course is assuming that it really happened as the buyer says.

Also in the interest of maintaining good feedback, you may want to take the card back.

Frank

[shaunsteig]

personally, I consider any raw card that I purchase on ebay at risk for not grading. generally I do hope it's authentic and not a reprint, but I make no assumptions that it hasn't been trimmed or otherwise altered. and the nicer the card's appearance, or the more high-profile the player, the more skeptical I am. the only exception that I make -- ie to rely that the card is authentic -- is for high-volume, well-reputed sellers who explicitly state in the description that they're guaranteeing it to grade (and even then, their wording sometimes doesn't guarantee against an 'A'). so unless I see the seller state a guarantee explicitly against trimming (or other alteration), then I don't assume it myself.

which is a long-about way of saying: buyer beware for raw cards on EBay. Thus, as a seller, if you didn't put any guarantees in your description, then you shouldn't have to accept any return.

(the limiting factor would be if you were worried that the buyer would give you a negative feedback, in which case it may be worth taking back the card in order to avoid that possibility. judgment call then on your part.)

hope that helps.

[HRBAKER]

I guess if you want to be known for selling trimmed cards and not saying so that would be a good program.

[rdixon1208]

That's a tough one. I hope some of the guys that only deal with raw cards chime in. I agree with a previous poster....when I buy a raw card online I always go into the deal knowing that there's a chance that the card may have been doctored in some way. I usually buy low grade cards so it's not as much of an issue.....I don't expect someone to trim a common T206 with a couple of creases, and if they do, I don't really care. But for me it's hard to imagine that anyone of us can detect every alteration. That being said, what happened here could happen to anyone. It's almost like a game of hot potato.

[Bridwell]

Buyers have all the power on ebay. If you don't make him happy with a refund or return, he will hit you with negative feedback. A few negatives and your reputation will suffer with other buyers. It's tough to be a seller on ebay. Tough to have to give in if somebody is unhappy. To make matters worse, somebody else could submit that same card for grading and it might get a number grade next time! Fortunately, this type of thing doesn't happen too often. If it were me, I'd give a full refund and be done with it.

[Leon]

When I sell a card it is with the assumption, and guarantee, that it will grade numerically, unless otherwise stated in my description. That should really go for anyone selling raw cards. Just my opinion.....

edited to add that I doubt my opinion coincides with the law but it's just the way business should be done imo.

[chaddurbin]

what kind of world do we live in where buyers have to assume there's something wrong with raw cards and sellers questioning whether they should take back altered cards?

[FrankWakefield]

A seller accepting a return is fine, and probably good practice. NOT because there's an implied warranty of slabability, but just fair business practice.

If the listing guaranteed the card would grade, then yes, definitely. If the seller had tried to grade it and was unsuccessful, that should be disclosed.

Still, if the buyer wanted a graded card then he should have bought a graded card, instead of one that wasn't graded. No way would I, as a seller, reimburse a buyer his lost grading fees in such a situation, absent a guarantee that the card would grade.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I recently sold a raw card on Ebay. The buyer sent it off to PSA and PSA claimed the card was trimmed. Basically, do raw card sellers guarantee that PSA will grade the card or is that a given?

I can't believe that this is a serious question. You advertised the card as "NEAR MINT/MINT" and if it is trimmed, then it is definitely NOT "NEAR MINT/MINT." As a seller, you should stand behind your product (and your claim).

What exactly are you thinking here? Do you think that the buyer is lying to you, or do you believe that PSA could have made a mistake? If you're claiming PSA could have made a mistake then you probably should remove the part in your description that says PSA is one of the "best 3rd party graders available." You either trust PSA's opinion or your don't.

Here's the real kicker. Finally your listing says, "Anything not graded by one of these grading companies isn't worth the money paid for it." So in other words, the Mays isn't worth the money paid for it?

I also have to question why most of your other cards are graded by PSA and a Mays this sweet looking is not???

Refund the buyer the money and quit asking ridiculous questions.

[Leon]

I also have to question why most of your other cards are graded by PSA and a Mays this sweet looking is not???

Refund the buyer the money and quit asking ridiculous questions.

+1 +1 ..... (that equals +2)

[bobbyw8469]

Point taken...thanks for all the advice.

[k-dog]

I agree with Leon to a point...but the truth is, many cards have been submitted and were originally labeled as trimmed...but after several more submissions were later graded. Anyone selling raw cards(this is not meant as an attack directly to you), should at least have the basic knowledge and experience to know whether it is trimmed. And if it is, giving a refund would be the right thing, Just my opinion as well. :)

[vintagetoppsguy]

Bobby,

I didn’t mean to be too hard and If I seem a little bitter about the situation, it’s because I am. About 4 years ago I had a similar situation happen to me. I purchased 4 high end raw cards ($2200 total) from a seller on eBay by the username “ValreySportsCards” (or something very similar) from Downey, CA. I sent them to PSA and they all came back as trimmed. The seller promised me a refund if I sent the cards back to him, which I did. However, I had to jump through hoops to finally get the refund, including calling the fraud division of his local police department. The seller has/had other usernames as well such as “jojosportsheaven.” Anyway, I know what it feels like to be on the buying end of trimmed cards. I have always enjoyed looking at your auctions and hope you make the right decision.

David

[nam812]

I also have to question why most of your other cards are graded by PSA and a Mays this sweet looking is not???

Because he sent it to PSA and it was deemed EOT, but he failed to disclose that when he sold it raw.

bobbyw8469 started a similar whiny thread on CU (http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=785657) about this 1955 Bowman Mays, and when he was questioned as to whether or not he had subbed that card to PSA first himself he said he did not.

This thread (http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=771322) shows he DID sub it to PSA and received an EOT. So he knew it was EOT, and sold it raw without disclosure.

Edited cause I cant seem to do links here.

[jb217676]

I read that whole thread. Pretty vicious!

[teetwoohsix]

Uhm, wow.......:eek:

[Matthew H]

I think people read too much into feedback rating. If a seller has 1000 feedback scores, who cares if a few are negative? I sure don't. It takes too long two search through positives to find the negatives. I have spent time searching only to find ridiculous feedback such as "card would not cross-over" or "card took 2-weeks to get to me" I really don't look too much anymore. I have only had to open one case with ebay and that seller had 100% positive.

I think "card came back trimmed" would be awful feedback to have. You should really try to avoid that.

[Jim VB]

Bobby does NOT come off looking too good here.

[chaddurbin]

maybe it was a different NRMT '55 mays bobby submitted?

a small favor...can you guys stop being dirtbags and shady as hell so i won't have to block/ignore you guys on the board for my viewing pleasure?

[Matthew H]

Yikes:D

[Jim VB]

maybe it was a different NRMT '55 mays bobby submitted?

a small favor...can you guys stop being dirtbags and shady as hell so i won't have to block/ignore you guys on the board for my viewing pleasure?


LOL.

OK. I'll try.

[Leon]

Maybe Bobby will answer the question of not having it graded but saying he did, on the other board? Not a good day for Bobby.......unless it's a different raw '55 Bowman Mays in NRMT shape :rolleyes:.

[deadballera]

right now I am currently selling a RAW card on eBay right now. If it was trimmed or altered, I would state it in the description so no interested bidder is mislead.

In fact, 95-98% of my vintage cards are raw. I would like to have them graded at the present time don't simply due to costs. I enjoy collecting whether they are RAW or graded. You can usually pick up RAW cards a little cheaper than graded material.

[bobbyw8469]

Leon...I am at work now so I can't respond like I wanted to. Carol has since locked the thread. I have never intentionally screwed anyone over, and the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Nam is a low life POS who hates me ever since day 1 without really knowing me. I refuse to resort to their low-life "witch hunt".......people who have dealt with me in the past know I am straight up and honorable. It is a popularity contest though, and Nam has alot of cronies....

[scooter729]

I haven't been involved in this at all and don't have a dog in the fight, but it sure does seem that the seller admitted back in April that he submitted the card to PSA and it came back 'evidence of trimming', and then re-sold it last month without revealing he had previously submitted it.

It doesn't matter who is a "POS" or anything else; that is a pretty solid and damning fact.

[rdixon1208]

Leon...I am at work now so I can't respond like I wanted to. Carol has since locked the thread. I have never intentionally screwed anyone over, and the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Nam is a low life POS who hates me ever since day 1 without really knowing me. I refuse to resort to their low-life "witch hunt".......people who have dealt with me in the past know I am straight up and honorable. It is a popularity contest though, and Nam has alot of cronies....

Good idea. Dodge the question and sling mud the other way. Ever think about running for public office?

[Jim VB]

Leon...I am at work now so I can't respond like I wanted to. Carol has since locked the thread. I have never intentionally screwed anyone over, and the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Nam is a low life POS who hates me ever since day 1 without really knowing me. I refuse to resort to their low-life "witch hunt".......people who have dealt with me in the past know I am straight up and honorable. It is a popularity contest though, and Nam has alot of cronies....

Seems like a long answer when you simply could have said "Yes, I submitted it prior to selling it raw." or "No, I never submitted it before selling it raw."

I don't know you. I don't know Nam. I am not a registered member of CU and rarely read that board. I'm just going off of what I have read here.

[bobbyw8469]

I sub between 100-200 cards a month with PSA......I also have raw cards in every nook and crannie that I have never subbed. Can I keep up with everything I subbed, didn't sub, what auction house I bought them from? No - not really. If you saw how many raw cards I have strowed around my house, you would have thought it was a war zone. I sold two Reggie Jackson rookies around the same time period and both were disclosed as rejected by PSA. Why on earth why I disclose those two Reggie rookies and not the Willie Mays!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I have nothing to gain by lying. If I subbed it and forgot I subbed it, then I apologize........like I said, I am still at work, so I can't really express my thoughts like I want, but this **** has gone on far enough!

[JasonL]

after I picked up a 1968 Mantle, sent it in and had PSA return it as trimmed. They caught something I didn't originally see, and I agree it was trimmed.
Instead of trying to get my money back from seller, I turned around and sold it on Ebay, with the full disclosure that it came back as trimmed, and included scans with the un-slabbed rejection flip. Got almost what I paid for it, which simply means that I was stupid to think I was getting a good deal in the first place.

Good learning experience.

I hold Mickey Mantle fully responsible and to this day I will not buy any of his cards. Last time I trust that guy.

[nam812]

I sub between 100-200 cards a month with PSA......I also have raw cards in every nook and crannie that I have never subbed. Can I keep up with everything I subbed, didn't sub, what auction house I bought them from? No - not really. If you saw how many raw cards I have strowed around my house, you would have thought it was a war zone. I sold two Reggie Jackson rookies around the same time period and both were disclosed as rejected by PSA. Why on earth why I disclose those two Reggie rookies and not the Willie Mays!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I have nothing to gain by lying. If I subbed it and forgot I subbed it, then I apologize........like I said, I am still at work, so I can't really express my thoughts like I want, but this **** has gone on far enough!

So you're going with "I forogt"? rdixon1208 is right, you should run for public office.

Also, when a caught scammer calls me a POS I wear that medal like a badge of honor.

[bobbyw8469]

You calling me a scammer is something else. I made a MISTAKE. Calling me a SCAMMER is bordering on malicious slander. I hate to quote the bible here, but LET HE WHO HAS NO SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.....hello?????? (crickets)............I thought so............

[teetwoohsix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk43YILTYNw&feature=related

[Anthony S.]

You calling me a scammer is something else. I made a MISTAKE. Calling me a SCAMMER is bordering on malicious slander. I hate to quote the bible here, but LET HE WHO HAS NO SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.....hello?????? (crickets)............I thought so............

Actually, I just threw a stone.

Cracked my computer screen in the process. Dammit.

[timzcardz]

I think people read too much into feedback rating. If a seller has 1000 feedback scores, who cares if a few are negative? I sure don't. It takes too long two search through positives to find the negatives.

Not if you use toolhaus.org

[bobbyw8469]

link...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180534892617&ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT

and another...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170515468413&ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT

I can't get the other one to come up because it is too old. These were disclosed as having been rejected, and I got just as much as I would have gotten if they were slabbed. The Mays, I totally forgot having sent it in. I have no reason to lie. Like someone else said, I would get JUST AS MUCH, IF NOT MORE by disclosing it. The money I got wasn't that great....I think I paid roughly that much for it. I believe it was one I got off Ebay, but I could have gotten it from Hunt Auctions. I don't remember. The bottom line is, the buyer submitted it, said it was trimmed, and he got refunded. I still have the card lying someone around my house, amongst all my other cards. I will sub it to SGC when I think about it, and who knows, they may grade it an "A", or they may even give it a number grade. I don't know, nor do I care....I do this as a HOBBY - I definitely don't do this for the money. I think it is FUN buying raw cards, graded cards, etc from all the various auctions I see. Dealing with Nam takes the wind out of my sails. I don't have many dealings on this board, nor do I go to card shows, but I have a firm belief in what's right is right, and turnabout is fair play. The "witch hunt" Nam started was uncalled for.....who knows, alot of those people who said I was "no good"
have probably bought stuff from me in the past....I don't know. Anyway, I am off work now, so I can finally write a verse or two,.....

[Matthew H]

Not if you use toolhaus.org

Awesome, thanks!

[bobbyw8469]

you are welcome! I just felt the need to explain my side of things, as apparently everyone posting on PSA was off for the day, and I really don't like doing things like that while I am at work.....

[Jim VB]

Not if you use toolhaus.org



You don't even need that site any more. Currently, you can just click on the number of the neutral or negative feedback, right on Ebay and they sort it for you.

(Edited to add: In fairness, this guys doesn't seem to have any negatives.)

[scooter729]

You don't even need that site any more. Currently, you can just click on the number of the neutral or negative feedback, right on Ebay and they sort it for you.


Wow, hadn't noticed that, but just tried it out. Now THAT is a nice feature - thanks eBay!

[cobblove]

"I have nothing to gain by lying"
I think if someone lied about a card being Nm-Mt when it was trimmed they could gain something called money.
It doesnt really matter What happend. But it does look bad. And the way you dodged certain questions just makes it worse. Maybe you did forget. But some find that answer hard to believe when others can remember what there first pack they bought was and what they pulled. Just move on

[Taxman]

Does Bobby have more than one Ebay account?

[bobbyw8469]

Yes....