Revisiting the T206 Wagner "strip" [Archive]

tedzan

08-18-2010, 07:14 PM

This strip was at Baltimore for all to see. Unfortunately, it is now encapsulated in plastic. I say this simply, because this makes it
impossible to tactilely examine this strip.

Nevertheless, I and 4 other long-time collectors ("dinosaurs") independently examined this strip under magnification and all 5 of us
have arrived at the same conclusion....it is not a standard production strip of T206's. And, it really cannot be classified as a "proof",
either. It is apparent that someone at American Litho. professionally pasted together the fronts of the 5 cards to create this strip.
Perhaps to show Wagner his card along with 4 other players to be included in their 1909 set of BB cards.

Now, I can see why they included Mordecai Brown (a 29 game winner in 1908). And, Cy Young needs no explanation (other then his
colors are not complete). I also see why Johnny Kling was included (hotshot catcher for the Championship Cubs teams, 1906-1908).
Why they selected Frank Bowerman, is not certain. Perhaps, Frank was an old-time friend of Wagner's, since they both started their
BB careers back in the 1890's.

Anyhow, the indisputable lines between each card is the revealing clue. In fact, one can see the separation between the Young and
Kling in the upper part of their adjacency.

OK, I'm sure the usual suspects on this forum will do their thing and "bust my chops" over this observation. However, I will REPEAT....
I'm not the sole critic of this strip. The other 4 guys, independently, came to the same conclusion. And mind you, that between us 5
guys there are 180+ years of hobby experience.

TED Z

Matt

08-18-2010, 07:17 PM

Who are the other 4 fellows? If you're mentioning them to add legitimacy to your opinion then it's only fair if we know who they are, isn't it?

Thrill-of-the-Hunt

08-18-2010, 07:52 PM

who cares about the other guys. ted has a well written and interesting post here. if ted wanted to name them than he would. its interesting and perhaps adds another level of how his regular issued card was short printed.

i am glad its encapsulated, for protection, this item is one of a kind with a terrific provenance. i am sure the sgc holder frames it nicely.

teetwoohsix

08-18-2010, 08:14 PM

I was wondering what your opinion of this strip would be after you had a chance to view it in person.

When you say it's not a standard production strip of T206's, what is out there to compare it to?

Also, if the ALC pasted together the fronts why would there be printers marks? Was the strip thicker than a regular T206?

I'm not busting your chops, just slightly confused- and I've never seen this in person. Thanks for posting about this-

Sincerely, Clayton

FrankWakefield

08-18-2010, 08:23 PM

Ted, hope you have a mouth guard...

What you've set out is consistent with what you said before. A few of us thought much this way earlier. The lines between the cards aren't consistent with proof marks, there's no cross marks for alignment. I know it isn't, but it reminds me of those Bazooka cards we used to cut off of those boxes 40 years ago.

Thanks for posting. I think your 'rehashing' sets out what that assembly of images (it isn't really a strip of cards) is.

Pup6913

08-18-2010, 10:47 PM

I am with Ted 100%. I remember a past thread about this and when I seen it at the national I looked at it then used my loop to see. There was for sure a difference in lines where they were put together and a printed line would be. But it is what it is and someone is going to pay top $ no matter what:(

Hell its a cool piece no matter what:cool:

ethicsprof

08-18-2010, 11:25 PM

great work, Ted.
thanks for sharing your findings.
all the best,
barry

botn

08-18-2010, 11:37 PM

Ted,

I am glad that you finally got to view it up close. I had expressed in the original thread that I was anxious to hear your opinion. Thanks for posting and letting us know what you saw, confirming your initial posts on the matter.

It is still a neat piece despite being fabricated.

Greg

barrysloate

08-19-2010, 04:31 AM

Ted- It's very interesting that Bowerman was an old friend of Wagner's. That would be an excellent way to get Honus to agree to let them use his picture. If an old friend agreed to do it, he might too. Good stuff.

tedzan

08-19-2010, 06:08 AM

Greg

Indeed, it is a very neat piece. There is no question about that.

Actually, I wish it was a real production piece, because it's my understanding that the Plank
card was next to (or close by) on the sheet that the Wagner card was printed on.

Can you imagine what a strip or panel of T206's with Plank & Wagner on it would be worth ?

TED Z

tedzan

08-19-2010, 06:19 AM

Regarding your........
" It's very interesting that Bowerman was an old friend of Wagner's. That would be an excellent way to get Honus
to agree to let them use his picture. If an old friend agreed to do it, he might too. "

This is conjecture on my part. However, if this strip was cobbled together to persuade Wagner to grant the Rights
to portray him....then as I have said, I can understand why "Three finger" Brown, Johnny Kling, and CYoung are on
this strip with Wagner. But, why Frank Bowerman ?

Best regards,

TED Z

Leon

08-19-2010, 07:17 AM

Nice work Ted. I am not really a "T206" guy but this piece is a mystery and sounds like it's going to still have some mystique surrounding it. Thanks for sharing your observations. I too agree, no need to mention other folks that saw it. If you say they are long time hobbyists and know what they are looking at, then that is good by me. take care and thanks again. So far no mouth guard needed :).

judsonhamlin

08-19-2010, 08:00 AM

Have any of the other cards that are on that strip been found o/c enough that the neighboring card is visible? If so, do the images match?

T2069bk

08-19-2010, 08:24 AM

Why does Bowerman not have a team desgnation or a colored collar in the strip... (I was thinking that when I saw the pics from timzcardz in the National Pic thread, and figured why not ask now).

Also, maybe the ATC really liked him...I remember reading a thread about him being in their advertising in Sporting life.

jimonym

08-19-2010, 11:33 AM

Thanks for starting this thread, Ted. I too spent several minutes closely examing the strip in Baltimore. Aside from the color differences already mentioned (on Young and Bowerman), a close look also shows that the ink color used for the name and team info and used to frame the image portion of the cards is quite clearly black, and not the dark brown that was used for all series of regular production. Based on these things and the overall look of the thing, I walked away convinced that the strip is undeniably cool but that it doesn't derive from the general production of T206 cards.

E93

08-19-2010, 01:20 PM

I also viewed the strip at the National under a loupe. Ted and I discussed this at the show and we disagree. It seemed clear to me that the lines between cards were printed. I do not believe separate cards were pasted onto the strip. In my opinion, it was a test run. This particular one was sent to Wagner to try to entice him to sign on with the project by showing him how good they looked. Meanwhile, I think that back at ALC, they looked at what was potentially a final product and decided to make some further changes after the sample sent to Wagner. Color changes were made to some cards in what would be final production decisions.

In my opinion, it does not make sense that they would cut cards off a sheet and then paste them back together. If it was sent to Wagner to impress him and convince him to sign on, why not just send him cut up cards? Why paste them back onto a sheet? I think they just cut a strip off of a sheet in the place that included Wagner's own image. They included a few others adjacent to his to give him a better sense of the set as a whole. It was close enough to a final production stage that the changes that might be made later (like adding color) would be relatively inconsequential in terms of giving Wagner a sense of what the cards would look like in general.

Of course this is speculation, but it is based on quite a bit of information and a close inspection of the piece under a 10X loupe at the National. Sometimes Ted and I disagree and I mean no disrespect. I know that Mark Macrae had similar questions as Ted when we talked at the National. Good, honest, knowledgable people can disagree.
JimB

E93

08-19-2010, 01:22 PM

I will also add that even if they were cut off different sheets and pasted together on a strip to send to Wagner, that would not affect the importance or value of this piece in slightest IMHO.
JimB

teetwoohsix

08-19-2010, 01:26 PM

I guess my questions must've came across wrong about this strip, so I'll try again.........

I am confused about the "making" of the strip. When I imagine them pasting the fronts on to the strip (am I understanding this right?) it seems as though this strip would be "thicker" than a normal T206. This is why I asked about the thickness........

As far as the "paste" itself, what did they use as paste back then? Would it hold up this well 100 years later?

It just seems like it would've been easier to print the strip on one solid piece of paper than to painstakenly paste each subject's fronts together.

Sincerely, Clayton

JimB you were posting while I was trying to figure out a way to ask questions without coming across as "attacking".......but what you said makes the most sense to me.

Matt

08-19-2010, 01:30 PM

I also viewed the strip at the National under a loupe. Ted and I discussed this at the show and we disagree. It seemed clear to me that the lines between cards were printed. I do not believe separate cards were pasted onto the strip.

Somehow you didn't make it into Ted's post where he spoke of the universal consensus of the hobby experts he spoke with at the show.

barrysloate

08-19-2010, 02:30 PM

Rob D.

08-19-2010, 02:34 PM

tedzan

08-19-2010, 02:59 PM

Peter_Spaeth

08-19-2010, 03:17 PM

Do we know who owns it?

Matt

08-19-2010, 03:21 PM

Hobby veterans often disagree on any number of issues, but this seems to be a very odd one not to have a consensus. Either it's a continuous strip or the cards are pasted on; wouldn't everybody who looked at it closely agree on one or the other? I don't get this one.:confused:

This may simply be the result of two different approaches to observation. To oversimplify the issue (it's really a scale), some folks approach things by simply making observations on what they see. Others process what they see with other information they already knew to form their observations.

As an example, Jim may have seen the lines that appear to be printed between the cards and said the lines were printed there. Ted, knowing that for regular T206 printings no lines were printed between cards, may have seen the lines and observed they must be the result of cards being cut and then adhered adjacently.

Again, the above is an example, I can't actually say how either of them processed their encounter with the strip - just using it as an illustration to answer Barry's question.

Doug

08-19-2010, 04:07 PM

Since the SGC guys read the board, maybe one of them could chime in on the subject since they are the ones that slabbed it?

mkdltn

08-19-2010, 04:21 PM

It may be possible that the strip is indeed "cobbled" together while at the same time being a single continuous strip. This is possible if you understand how these items were printed. The key to this is the lithographic transfer process. I am not going to explain it in this post but will provide a link to a site that I have been working on to explain how chromolithographs were printed in the mid 19th century up until the early to mid 20th century. If you read the making of a cigar label .pdf keep in mind that in lieu of the keyline drawing the halftone photo of the player with the border such as that of Wagner most certainly served as the key instead.

http://mjdalton.blogspot.com/

E93

08-19-2010, 06:40 PM

Jim B

1st....The color differences of the Bowerman and CYoung with respect to the other 3 cards on this strip totally contradicts the 6-color
process that American Litho. used to print their standard production T206's. Therefore, I have to question your observation......
"I think they just cut a strip off of a sheet in the place that included Wagner's own image."

2nd....We haven't discussed the back of this strip. The back is simply a strip of thin white cardboard that appears to have been pieced
together. And, not the type of cardboard backing typical of T206 cards.

Finally....Jim, how do you account for the vertical lines between each card ?
They are not printed lines.

Regards,
TED Z

1. I do not understand why ALC could not have printed a sheet that looked like that.

2. The back did not look pieced together to me. It looked like one piece. And under a loupe it looked just like any other T206 cardboard (without the ad printed on it).

3. I think they simply printed lines between cards on this particular pre-production test run.

JimB

Jim VB

08-19-2010, 07:04 PM

Do we know who owns it?

Isn't it owned by the same guy that owns the PSA 8 Wagner, the Diamondbacks owner?

Peter_Spaeth

08-19-2010, 07:26 PM

Isn't it owned by the same guy that owns the PSA 8 Wagner, the Diamondbacks owner?

Oh man if so I hope he is not 0/2. :D

iggyman

08-19-2010, 08:51 PM

Oh man if so I hope he is not 0/2. :D

Peter,

Both the T206 "Gretzky" Wagner and the T206 Wagner strip card are part of the hobby industry folklore. Thus, without definite proof (which we will never get), the debate over whether "the" Wagner card was/is trimmed or whether the strip is not really a strip, only serves to enhance the value. So we can debate this until we are blue in the face, meanwhile the current owner will laugh all the way to the bank.

Lovely Day...

Peter_Spaeth

08-19-2010, 09:03 PM

I am still puzzled how Jim's view was so different from Ted's (and others). The issues at least some don't really seem to be subjective ones.

tedzan

08-20-2010, 07:18 AM

JimB

Hey ole buddy....we had several interesting conversations at the National in Baltimore during that week. You asked me
my opinion of the 1949 LEAF Joe DiMaggio you acquired, regarding its color variation. I pointed out to you the quality
aspects of this card, which made you quite happy about it. And, you got a "kick" from the TyCobb/Ty Cobb card some
one showed me at the show, who thought it was a real one.

But, now there are at least 7 guys who have personally examined this Wagner strip at the National that differ with you
on it.

I'll respond to your 3 comments......

Jim...."1. I do not understand why ALC could not have printed a sheet that looked like that."

The 6-color process used by lithographers back then applied the individual ink passes simultaneously on all cards on a
given sheet (or strip). Therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this strip to have been printed with the CYoung and Bowerman
cards to have certain colors missing, while the other 3 cards' colors are virtually complete.

Jim...."2. The back did not look pieced together to me. It looked like one piece. And under a loupe it looked just like any
other T206 cardboard (without the ad printed on it)."

We discussed the "backing" on this strip. In no way, is it a normal blank-backed T206 card's cardboard. It's a bright white
piece of carboard, that does not jive with the cardboard used in 1909 to produce the T206's.

Jim...."3. I think they simply printed lines between cards on this particular pre-production test run."

These so-called lines are not printed, but are actually separations between the cards. Examining this strip under high magni-
fication revealed this. Furthermore, this observation is reinforced by the separation between the CYoung card and the Kling
card at the upper right end of the strip. If the strip was not in its plastic encapsulation, you would be able to tactilely feel
the separations.

Two final points......

Jaime Hull noted here (in post #15)....
"a close look also shows that the ink color used for the name and team info and used to frame the image portion of the cards
is quite clearly black, and not the dark brown that was used for all series of regular production"

And, since you mentioned Mark Macrae (in post #16)....you'll recall that he was even more convinced than me, that these 5
cards were individually placed together on this "strip".

Regards,

TED Z

Peter_Spaeth

08-20-2010, 07:37 AM

Is an image available?

canjond

08-20-2010, 07:53 AM

Ted - one question regarding the color and the differences in "completeness" you observe....

You stated above "it is IMPOSSIBLE for this strip to have been printed with the CYoung and Bowerman
cards to have certain colors missing, while the other 3 cards' colors are virtually complete."

But, wouldn't this be possible if the ALC had intended the CYoung and Bowerman to have been complete as they appear on the strip, and then later, after examining what they considered to be the final product, decided to add more color and improve those cards to make those cards look better? I think you are assuming that the CYoung and Bowerman cards were intended, from day 1, to appear in the final form that we are all used to seeing today. But, what if that wasn't the original intention?

To illustrate with another example - what if the ALC had originally intended the Wagner background to be white... A "final" preproduction example was created of Wagner with a white background. They looked at the white background and said this looks awful - lets make the background orange. So, the production example were made with orange. Years later, both cards exist. Someone claims the white background Wagner is missing color. Well, that is not accurate. The white background example is missing no color - that was the "original" intention. However, subsequent intention was to give it an orange background.

So, isn't it entirely possible that the strip can have cards that look complete to what we know is the final product (ala Wagner), and cards that looks incomplete (ala CYoung) because those "incomplete" cards may have been the original intention?

M's_Fan

08-20-2010, 07:58 AM

The 6-color process used by lithographers back then applied the individual ink passes simultaneously on all cards on a
given sheet (or strip). Therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this strip to have been printed with the CYoung and Bowerman
cards to have certain colors missing, while the other 3 cards' colors are virtually complete.

The normal printing processes of lithography could easily have been discarded for a test/experimental run of this strip. So it is very possible that this test or experimental strip had all sorts oddities that do not occur in the normal process of printing T206s. Applying color to an entire sheet was done to save time and print fast. When you are experimenting, time is not an issue and so color could have been applied to one card and not the other.

We discussed the "backing" on this strip. In no way, is it a normal blank-backed T206 card's cardboard. It's a bright white
piece of carboard, that does not jive with the cardboard used in 1909 to produce the T206's.

Again, they could have easily used test paper that was not used in the actual production of T206s, because this was a test/experimental piece. However, the fact that it is bright doesn't mean much, it could be just well preserved.

These so-called lines are not printed, but are actually separations between the cards. Examining this strip under high magni-
fication revealed this.

This is so far the best (and perhaps only) evidence that the cards were pasted together. However the only person on this board that actually touched this card, a previous owner, disagreed with your idea that you could feel the separation, and thought that it was one card. I haven't examined or handled this card so I don't know one way or another, but its interesting that people can disagree on something that you can either see or can't.

Furthermore, this observation is reinforced by the separation between the CYoung card and the Kling
card at the upper right end of the strip. If the strip was not in its plastic encapsulation, you would be able to tactilely feel
the separations.

The separation between the Young and Kling appears to be a heavy crease, where it was folded. But I haven't seen it so I can't say for sure. Just a thought.

I do think it is interesting that you couldn't see the separation without a high degree of magnification. If it was pasted together, someone certainly did an expert job.

In my opinion whether these cards were printed together on one piece of paper, or printed on separate pieces of paper and then pasted together, makes little difference to the strip's value or legitimacy. If they were pasted together, it appears to have been done by original person at the printing factory, not by some modern collector trying to increase the value. That is the crucial distinction.

barrysloate

08-20-2010, 08:13 AM

So if this piece consists of five cards glued onto a cardboard strip, which at minimum seems to be the majority opinion, under what circumstances did SGC authenticate it? Wouldn't it seem like the kind of piece that could not be authenticated, given the circumstances of how it was constructed? Part of the criteria of authentication is knowing what a piece is, and being able to identify it as such. What exactly is this?

T2069bk

08-20-2010, 08:17 AM

Kling and Mordecai Brown cards are also missing the color in the collars. Additionally, the Bowerman appears to have Rosy Cheeks so the Red was applied to the card....just not the B for Boston. So 4 of the 5 have some color variance.....

Al C.risafulli

08-20-2010, 08:21 AM

This strip is 100 years old, perhaps a bit more. If I remember the lore behind it, it was found folded, in a pocket.

The creasing and overall wear that it exhibits is something that nobody can deny - it appears to have taken a beating over the years.

That being the case, I would guess that if it had been five separate cards pasted together on a strip, at least one of these cards would have, by now, begun peeling away from its backing, or from the other cards. I'm unaware of any glue that could have been used in 1909 to paste these cards together that would have held up for 100 years while being subject to the abuse that this strip has taken over the years.

Coupled with the fact that two different people who have seen and held the actual strip outside of a holder and verified that it is one continuous strip seems to be fairly strong evidence.

This is, of course, not to denigrate the knowledge of some of the experts who have chimed in on this, but it seems that most of those who feel it's not a continuous strip have evaluated the item either from pictures, or from holding it while encased in a slab.

As for why colors are not consistent with the final issue, or why lines appear in places where we're not accustomed to seeing them, as someone who buys various printed materials every single day, there are dozens of reasons why a test, a proof, or a press sheet might look different than the final product. That's a detail that I don't find particularly odd at all, especially using 1909 printing technology.

-Al

D. Broughman

08-20-2010, 08:38 AM

Will this help in your discussion;)

barrysloate

08-20-2010, 08:39 AM

If it's not a continuous strip but is in fact six individual pieces- the five cards plus the backing- how do we know when it was glued together? I think it's safe to say the printing is period and it was sent to Wagner right before the mass printing of the cards was to take place. But how do we know the cards weren't sent loose to Wagner and the family later glued them to a backing? That's my point about it being authenticated- has the glue been tested? Do we know how and when the strip was constructed? I just feel if it consists of five separate cards then authenticating it is a bit of a slippery slope.

If on the other hand it's a single contiguous strip then I have no issues with the authentication. But as has been stated earlier in this thread, can't somebody from SGC come on here and solve this mystery for us? Whichever is correct, it certainly shouldn't be a secret and no confidences should be compromised by answering that question.

barrysloate

08-20-2010, 08:42 AM

Thanks for that picture. On one hand, those creases between the cards do suggest they might be glued down to something. However, look at the print lines at the top and bottom of the seams between Wagner and Bowerman, and Wagner and Brown. How would those lines be there if five cards were pasted down? Still a mystery.

sb1

08-20-2010, 08:48 AM

they are not individual pieces glued to the backing. In fact the spaces/lines in between are irregular and appear to be hand cut cards layed out together. Whether they were trial color runs, progressive proof runs or printers scrap.

How far back can anyone definitively trace this piece??

E93

08-20-2010, 09:01 AM

E93

08-20-2010, 09:05 AM

Ted my friend,
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I looked at the card very closely under a loupe, specifically looking for evidence that it was multiple cards pasted together. What I saw was printed lines between the card, except for the Young/Kling where the crease was so heavy it was impossible to discern. I know there are not length-of-card printed lines on other extant T206 proofs, only the hash marks that are also on this piece. I believe I am reporting what I saw accurately. It would be nice if the SGC grader who examined it outside of the holder would chime in here.
Best,
Jim

sb1

08-20-2010, 09:12 AM

I agree with Jim, the lines between the cards are irregular and wavy, yet they are printed on the stock just like the cards.

barrysloate

08-20-2010, 09:17 AM

Peter_Spaeth

08-20-2010, 09:18 AM

If glued together how to explain what seems to be a clear black printed little line segment at the bottom of the separation between each card. Look e.g. at the bottom of the division between Brown and Wagner.

Matt

08-20-2010, 09:23 AM

I still can't understand how roughly half the people who examined this piece saw it one way, and half the other way. Is it an optical illusion? Because it's either five separate cards or one strip- period. There's no gray area here.

My math skills must be off - perhaps I miscounted, but it looks like every single person who has examined the card in person and come on the forum, including two people who held it raw, say it is printed, with the exception of Ted.

oaks1912

08-20-2010, 09:31 AM

Ted & Jim... It was nice discussing this piece with both of you at the National. While we are all at a disadvantage not being able to examine the piece ‘outside of plastic’, there are numerous anomalies when compared to typical T-206 cards. I’ll agree that based on what I’ve seen, this piece is most likely period and most likely pre-production. Beyond that, I'm not going to speculate. Modern collectors may never be able to determine exactly what this piece is, much like the 19th century hall of fame jerseys that were in Barry Halper’s collection.....:confused:

barrysloate

08-20-2010, 09:36 AM

Matt- Ted said several other people whom he spoke with at the National agreed that these were separate cards. I don't know who they are or how many he discussed it with, but it appears more than one feel these are separate cards. My opinion from memory is that it was printed on a single strip, but I last saw it in person in 1999.

Jewish-collector

08-20-2010, 09:38 AM

I recall reading that Wayne Varner of Shoebox Cards owned it & held it before he sold it to Barry Halper. Perhaps, Wayne could help break the tie from that half the people thinks it's one way & half think it's another. :D

tedzan

08-20-2010, 09:40 AM

Matt

08-20-2010, 09:44 AM

Mark Macrae, Jamie Hull (see post #15), and I have stated the strip is not a 5-card print....but, has been pieced together.

At least we know why there is a disagreement.

Peter_Spaeth

08-20-2010, 09:49 AM

Ted see my post 47, what was your take on the little black line segments separating the cards along the bottom border, and how to reconcile them with theory of cards being glued together, thanks.

baseballart

08-20-2010, 10:05 AM

....much like the 19th century hall of fame jerseys that were in Barry Halper’s collection.....:confused:

Mark

I think modern collectors may never know what those 19th century HOFer Halper jerseys were, but they do know what they're not ;)

Leon

08-20-2010, 10:06 AM

One would say you are "mathe-MATT-ically" challenged

Mark Macrae, Jamie Hull (see post #15), and I have stated the strip is not a 5-card print....but, has been pieced together.

Furthermore, there are at least 4 others who have seen this strip an agree with us. Two of them occasionally post here.
The other two do not.

I'm tired of your constant attempts to "derail" me, as you have tried in other threads. If you have something constructive
to add, then by all means state it.
Keep your negative thoughts to yourself.

TED Z

Hey Ted
For the record I think when Mark M said above, that he feels it is pre-production, it means that it was not put together as different cards and is in fact one strip. Maybe I took it the wrong way? I just got off of the phone with a very advanced collector who louped it at the National, with another advanced collector. He and the other chap say they are positive it is one strip. There is absolutely no doubt in their minds.

As for negative thoughts in this thread, I don't see them. I see a good debate going on, with good folks that are agreeing and disagreeing. I hope this debate doesn't get personal. best regards.....your friend ....LL

botn

08-20-2010, 10:59 AM

Here is the original thread http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=123958. On it both Wayne and Solomon, who held and owned the strip, commented.

What is even more mysterious than the origin of the strip is the number of experts who Ted and Leon have talked with whose names cannot be mentioned. It is just an opinion they are providing not testimony in a court of law. Why the anonymity?

Leon

08-20-2010, 11:02 AM

What is even more mysterious than the origin of the strip is the number of experts who Ted and Leon have talked with whose names cannot be mentioned. It is just an opinion they are providing not testimony in a court of law. Why the anonymity?

One commented in this thread and the other is a bit more private but has been collecting for around 40 yrs. And my response mentioned one collector and another friend of his....so that number is 2, Greg.

M's_Fan

08-20-2010, 12:02 PM

One would say you are "mathe-MATT-ically" challenged

I'm tired of your constant attempts to "derail" me, as you have tried in other threads. If you have something constructive
to add, then by all means state it.
Keep your negative thoughts to yourself.

TED Z

Like Leon, I don't see anyone having any negativity towards you Ted. There is a good debate going on here, and there is nothing wrong with counting up who is on what side. But nobody has any personal stake in it and its all pretty much opinion, and it looks like there are opinions on both sides. Don't take it personally if we disagree with you, its all just an academic debate anyway that doesn't really matter that much...

Back to the debate, as I said on the previous thread:

...it seems highly unlikely to me that someone would go to the trouble of making a strip card and hiding the seams with such precision. Even if you have the skill to do this, why would you? Wagner won't care if there are seems on his sample. And why even bother to cut cards and then make a strip for Wagner? Why not just easily paste them on a sheet of paper side by side? It just doesn't add up to me that someone would go to this effort, there seems to me no reason to do so.

jimonym

08-20-2010, 12:05 PM

Because of its plastic entombment, I couldn't determine whether it was a frankenstrip or not. What I feel totally convinced of is that the strip (or "strip") was separately produced from standard T206 press runs and thus sheds only limited light on T206 production methods.

martyogelvie

08-20-2010, 12:51 PM

Barry,
maybe there is some room for grey area..
perhaps its a 3 card strip with two cards added (glued on). ?

;)

peterose4hof

08-20-2010, 12:53 PM

barrysloate

08-20-2010, 01:07 PM

Marty- you are a master at finding that great middle ground.:)

Leon

08-20-2010, 01:09 PM

Since they are the ones who slabbed the strip, it really is a shame that someone from SGC hasn't chimed in on this thread. If we keep the debate going for another 5 days maybe Brian Dwyer (who will then be formerly of SGC) will have some comments.

I sort of doubt SGC will come on here for this debate. They do read the board quite a bit though. I would have to imagine that if they thought it were seperate cards glued onto a strip then they would not have slabbed it. If I am wrong I will let ya'll know tomorrow, after they call me and correct me :D. regards

barrysloate

08-20-2010, 01:12 PM

tedzan

08-20-2010, 01:43 PM

My "beef" is just with one character here....Matt, and his comment in post #48......
" My math skills must be off - perhaps I miscounted, but it looks like every single person who has examined the card
in person and come on the forum, including two people who held it raw, say it is printed, with the exception of Ted. "

While his comment may sound innocuous to you, it is unsolicited "digs" like this that he posted on several occasions,
that I have finally become fed up with.
It is apparent that he did not bother to read the prior posts here, before making that comment. Or, perhaps he did
read them; but, has a comprehension problem.

In any event, please try to understand my side of this matter. I don't post on here to generate controversy.
I have stated my opinion on this strip and that I'm entitled to do so. I fully expect & accept constructive differences
of opinion.
However, I don't think we need uninformed, sarcastic commentary.

TED Z

Rob D.

08-20-2010, 01:44 PM

Leon- why couldn't SGC come on here and comment? All they would have to say is whether it's a strip or an amalgamation of cards. It's easy and they certainly (hopefully) won't get attacked. I bet if you asked them they would- they've certainly commented on this board before.

I can think of a few reasons. One is that it establishes a precedent I'm guessing SGC would like to avoid. If someone from SGC comes on the board and provides details on the strip, then where do they draw the line? Are they required to do it the next time there are questions about a high-profile card? Plus, my guess is they'd prefer to let their work do the talking. I don't think it would be slabbed like it is if it were five cards pasted together (the collective opinion of Ted's group of experts not withstanding).

Second, I'm sure they feel a responsiblity to their customers to not publicly comment on cards they grade. I'm betting they would feel the need to get permission from the card's owner before commenting.

Third, I'm sure they've seen how quickly other threads have deteriorated (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=85189&highlight=kit+young) when folks who don't post that often come aboard.

Finally, I doubt it would end up being a simple post. One answer would lead to another question, which would lead to another, etc., etc., etc. They received the card, received payment and did their job. I don't think SGC should be expected to host a Q&A. At least at this point in time.

Of course, now that I've said all this, expect someone from SGC to post within the hour.

Rob D.

08-20-2010, 01:49 PM

I fully expect & accept constructive differences of opinion.

TED Z

Ted, quite simply: No, you do not.

barrysloate

08-20-2010, 02:00 PM

Rob- I agree that even the simplest threads can end up in dogfights, so I'm with you there.

But we aren't asking them to reveal anything even slightly confidential or controversial. We're merely asking if it's a single strip or not.

And as far as where they draw the line, it would pretty much stop right here. This is an extremely unusual, and admittedly unique item. I don't care how they came to the conclusion it's genuine, I don't care who submitted it...I just want to know if it's a strip or not.

And I agree that they wouldn't have slabbed it if it were five cards glued together. Therefore, I have to put myself in the camp that it is a strip and not five individual cards. But it would be nice to hear it from them.

That said, they probably will not chime in.

Al C.risafulli

08-20-2010, 02:15 PM

And as far as where they draw the line, it would pretty much stop right here

I disagree. Two or three times a week on this board, I see people calling for a representative from a grading company to chime in to a thread and offer an opinion or explanation. The first time a grading company representative does this, it sets a precedent. There have certainly been plenty of other high-profile items where grading companies have been asked to comment on this board.

I also know that if I submitted a card to a grading company, or if I owned a card that was the subject of some discussion, I wouldn't want the grading company to be making public statements about my card - whether they be positive or negative or indifferent. SGC is not the owner of the card; they were asked to render an opinion for the owner of the card at the time of submission, and not to make a public statement to the entire hobby at the request of someone who has no ownership interest in the card at all.

My suggestion would be to have one of the academics here contact the owner of the card, and in the interest of learning, ask if the slab could be opened at next year's National, in a public forum. It could be examined under a loupe, and then re-slabbed. I'd be happy to pony up some cash for re-slabbing the card.

-Al

barrysloate

08-20-2010, 02:34 PM

Fair enough Al. I'll go with that. It doesn't seem like a big deal to me but this board can often be a lion's den so maybe they shouldn't say anything.

Could they at least give us a hint?

cfc1909

08-20-2010, 06:06 PM

Not to disagree or agree with anybody-just my opinion.

I examined this piece 2 different times while at the National. I thought it was odd all the cards had heavy creasing except the Bowerman.
The cards have perfect registration and appear to be a first run or very close, much better quality than any other cards I have seen of these players.
The piece appeared to be one strip of cards to me. I couldn't see any evidence that these were pasted together but I only could examine it through the plastic.
The vertical lines looked to be printed on and unique to this piece because if these lines were on all 206 sheets we would see them on other 206 cards. I don't think if cards were pasted together, vertical lines would appear.

I have taken 5 raw 206s and put them together. Where they touch doesn't appear to be a printed vertical line.

It would have been nice to hold it and feel the cardboard and run my fingers across the strip.

Jewish-collector

08-20-2010, 09:24 PM

I disagree. Two or three times a week on this board, I see people calling for a representative from a grading company to chime in to a thread and offer an opinion or explanation. The first time a grading company representative does this, it sets a precedent. There have certainly been plenty of other high-profile items where grading companies have been asked to comment on this board.

I also know that if I submitted a card to a grading company, or if I owned a card that was the subject of some discussion, I wouldn't want the grading company to be making public statements about my card - whether they be positive or negative or indifferent. SGC is not the owner of the card; they were asked to render an opinion for the owner of the card at the time of submission, and not to make a public statement to the entire hobby at the request of someone who has no ownership interest in the card at all.

My suggestion would be to have one of the academics here contact the owner of the card, and in the interest of learning, ask if the slab could be opened at next year's National, in a public forum. It could be examined under a loupe, and then re-slabbed. I'd be happy to pony up some cash for re-slabbing the card.

-Al

Great idea !!! Then all of us Net54 members could take turns examining it. We could vote one piece or not one piece. The item would then be re-slabbed with that info on the label on what the majority of members decide.

Leon

08-21-2010, 08:21 AM

I have emailed back and forth with Wayne Varner about some other things in the last day or two. He and his partner Bill have handled this raw. Here is his message (I hope he doesn't mind)...

" By the way that Wagner strip is the real thing. No cards pasted together. You can talk to Bill and I about it at the Valley Forge show next month if you are planning to be there. I am sure Ted Z, Bill and I will have conversation. He sits up right next to us if you recall. Hope to see you there.

Wayne"

The other 1 of the 2 people that think it's a strip, which I previously mentioned, is Richard Masson....He and Scott B, my partner (and who already gave his opinion), both louped it at the National and think it's one strip. No more anonymity in my musings :). I don't really like to throw names around for a few reasons but I never make crap up.....I could be wrong sometimes, and will admit it, but if I say something there is a reason. best regards

Comiskey

08-21-2010, 09:36 AM

HRBAKER

08-21-2010, 09:43 AM

I can see both sides but they have graded and authenticated it already by slabbing it. In essence they have already rendered a professional opinion.

Rob D.

08-21-2010, 09:59 AM

I can see both sides but they have graded and authenticated it already by slabbing it. In essence they have already rendered a professional opinion.

Exactly!

Doug

08-21-2010, 10:04 AM

What I don't understand is that SGC would have a problem standing by their opinion. I mean, they examined the card and slabbed it, why wouldn't they want to express their opinion on the card? I understand that sometimes threads can become negative, but if they come on the board and express their professional opinion, I would have greater respect for third party grading.

It's a piece of hobby lore and any details about the strip should be expressed so we can come to a detailed conclusion about the piece.

I guess I am just having a hard time believing that a company created to determine the authenticity and grades of these cardboard pieces, wouldn't come onto this board and tell us their opinion on the piece?

Jeff

I suggested maybe someone from SGC chime in back at post #25 so I'm guessing either they don't want to get involved in the discussion or they assume the fact that they slabbed it speaks for itself. Personally, if prior owners say it's one strip that's good enough for me. Unless I hit the lottery I won't have to worry about ever owning it so I'm not losing much sleep over it one way or the other, but it would be interesting to hear SGC's take on it.

cfc1909

08-21-2010, 11:04 AM

SGC gave their opinion-it is in their holder-SGC A-that is their opinion.

Anything else that is said or written should be to the owner of the card, not on a public chat board...:rolleyes:

goudeygold

08-21-2010, 02:19 PM

If you step back and think about it a minute, how can 5 cards could be glued together so perfectly that it is essentially undetectable under a 10x loop 100 years after being glued, then creased, folded and tossed about.

The alignment on the top and bottom is razor perfect across all cards. I simply cannot see how it is plausible that they are 5 separate cards glued together 100 years ago. No way IMHO.

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/wagnerstrip.jpg

tedzan

08-21-2010, 04:13 PM

Regarding this recent comment......
"The alignment on the top and bottom is razor perfect across all cards. I simply cannot see how it is plausible that they are 5 separate
cards glued together 100 years ago. No way IMHO."

I don't think you realize that the printers employed by American Lithographic were the best at their trade. 100 years ago, they were the
foremost lithographers in this country. Accurately piecing together 5 images of BB players was a trivial task for these professionals. Have
you ever seen the amazing lithographic pieces of art produced by American Litho. ?
These little pieces of cardboard we call T206's pale by comparison.

However since you brought up this subject, I ask all of you to take a good look at the scan of this strip in post #39. Many of you have
said that the vertical lines between the cards were printed. Check it out again guys....if those lines were printed, then they would have
the identical intensity (and appearance) as the black ink printed proof cross-marks.
Instead these vertical lines are "hairline" thin and no where as intense. In no way are these hairline vertical lines the result of printing.
And, no one here has yet been able to explain these lines. Other than they are indeed the separations between these images.

I think Frank Wakefield's following post best describes the make up of this "5-image" strip.

"....It isn't cards at all. It is separate papers, printed on the papers are the images that would eventually be the fronts of certain
white border tobacco cards, the papers are pieced together as seen. It isn't a card, nor 5 cards, and it isn't even a printer's proof.
It seems a spec sample of what was planned, a demonstration of what could be....."

TED Z

GoSoxBoSox

08-21-2010, 08:14 PM

I have also examined it with a 10x loupe. The card was holdered so the edges couldn't be examined but I saw no evidence up peeling between cards other than areas with heavy creasing. Furthermore, I have to agree with the camp that says as a pre-production strip it's hard to hold this strip to the rules of normal production. Anything could have been done to this strip. The lines between cards could be lightly printed lines just as they print the hair on a players head? The lines could also have been put there by hand after the fact using a straight edge? The lines themselves do appear to be printed, IMHO. There is heavy creasing between the Young and the Kling along the seperation and I would think there would be more peeling if that edge was glued. The upper edge between the Brown and the Wagner has a bit of peeling that looks consistent to the heavy crease that drops towards the Brown card so it didn't strike me as odd. My last problem with the theory that these were glued together is that I would think there would be a dog ear or something along the top edge or bottom edge of the proof where the card edges meet? I saw nothing like that. If these are glued I'd like to know how because it must be one hell of a glue job after nearly 100 years in "rough" conditions. I believe many of those years were spent folded-up in Honus' old uniform pants pockets in the attic of his Pittsburgh home. The cold and the heat up there in the attic had to hurt the glue somehow, no?

All of that said I obviously have concluded it's all one strip. Either way, it's obviously a unique pre-production piece that was not subject to the same printing rules as the cards that came later during mass production.

I guess I should also mention that I have been collecting continuously since 1975 now. 30 of those years I've been into pre-war cards. Not that it should matter when stating the observations I mentioned above, but it seems to be important to some the we are qualified to have an opinion.

I would also like to say I respect the opinions of those who feel it's a 6 piece card. It's a somewhat fascinating debate because nothing would surprise me in this hobby. I sure wish we could know the truth for sure .......but that just won't happen.

Tom Papa

FrankWakefield

08-21-2010, 11:16 PM

One matter that everyone seems in agreement about is that some third party grader graded this... Which company graded it? And, does anyone recall what the slip indicated it was? I'm not concerned about a grade or number, I'm asking about the grader's identity of the item.

If I take a photograph next time I'm at a ballpark, and print it off with a caption added once I get home, then it seems that should be as 'gradable' as this assemblage is.

GoSoxBoSox

08-22-2010, 08:48 AM

It says:
"1909 T206
Honus Wagner
Proof Strip."

With Authentic as the "grade".

http://huntauctions.com/Live/img27/242.jpg

HRBAKER

08-22-2010, 08:59 AM

I think it is more properly stated that they (SGC) authenticated it ("A") but then again "A" is considered a grade by some. IMO with this piece the grading neither adds to nor detracts from it, what it does do is keep people from handling it and restrains the amount of scrutiny it can be given now. I have collected pre-war for a few decades now and am an expert at nothing. It is a fascinating subject though.

Rob D.

08-22-2010, 09:07 AM

"SGC" stands for Sportscard Guaranty. Here is a link to the company's website:

http://www.sgccard.com/

FrankWakefield

08-22-2010, 09:33 AM

Thank you, guys. I now recall SGC was mentioned back up there.

I don't think it is a "proof". Proofs from this issue had the vertical and horizontal crosshairs, centered in the borders. A few of the guys here have cards like that. We've not seen anything like this for any of the other cards in the white border series, just this one item.

And thanks for the scan of it in its slab. This rascal will be fodder for discussion in future generations.

dstudeba

08-22-2010, 10:24 AM

It is my understanding that this strip has been in the hobby in raw form for at least 25 years. In that time it was handled by a number of collectors who always considered it to be a complete strip of cards from the T206 era. From a scan Ted determines that it is a set of individual cards put together and goes public with this theory. After much discussion defending his view, he actually sees the piece in question, examines it through a slab, and determines that he is indeed correct.

I don't think this would have gone over well in a peer reviewed journal.

Rob D, thank you very much for your post.

tedzan

08-22-2010, 03:38 PM

dstudeba

Regarding your......
" From a scan Ted determines that it is a set of individual cards put together and goes public with this theory. After much
discussion defending his view, he actually sees the piece in question, examines it through a slab, and determines that he is
indeed correct. "

"Ted", only ? ....... have you bothered to read thru this thread ? ?

Most likely not....So, I refer you to Posts #5, 6, 15, 60. Those posts were from individuals, who ALSO question that these 5
images were NOT printed as an intact strip.
Hmmmm, so what seems to be your problem with singling out only Ted ?

Look we all agree on two things regarding this strip....

(1) It is an original pre-production piece printed in early 1909.

(2) It is a tremendous T206 artifact.

Some think it's a continuous strip, and others of us differ. The color differences in of the 5 images with respect to each other
contradicts everything we know about American Litho's 6-color printing process. That, and other more subtle aspects of this
artifact leads us to believe it is not exactly what it is advertised as being.

TED Z

barrysloate

08-22-2010, 04:12 PM

Ted- Leon posted that the previous owner of the card, Wayne Varner, said with certainty that it is a continuous strip. He owned it before it was slabbed and held it in his hand. Doesn't the controversy end right there? Can one of the original owners of the card be wrong? Seems like we've passed the point of it being debatable. That cinches it for me. Don't you agree with that?

tedzan

08-22-2010, 04:40 PM

I've known Wayne and Bill Zimpleman since 1981 and have had some interesting discussions with them over the years.
We are old friends. Also, it so happens that we are set up at adjacent booths at the Philly Show, so we will certainly
have an interesting discussion next month regarding this Wagner artifact.

At the time Wayne and Bill owned this piece years ago (before Barry Halper acquired it), the 6-color printing process
and other subtle aspects that went into the production of these tobacco cards were not well known, or understood.
Therefore, no one questioned the apparent anomalies of this strip back then.

TED Z

GoSoxBoSox

08-22-2010, 04:42 PM

The color differences in of the 5 images with respect to each other contradicts everything we know about American Litho's 6-color printing process.

As has been stated in this thread already almost anything can be done during a pre-production trial run. You yourself have stated these American Litho guys were the best in the business at the time. Doesn't that mean to you that they "might" be able to print outside of that normal production process if they want to for proofing purposes?

That, and other more subtle aspects of this
artifact leads us to believe it is not exactly what it is advertised as being.

I believe those other subtle aspects have been spoken about as well. I know I spoke of them in my post. It's very clear to me, after closely examining the artifact, this just cannot be 6 pieces glued together. I'd be shocked if I was proven wrong in this particular case.

Ted - is there any chance at all that you and your friends who examined this piece just "might" be wrong this one time? Just maybe?

I know I'm not perfect so I could be wrong. The professionals at SGC agree with me though so I feel like what I saw was most likely correct. I can only add that if SGC said I was wrong and that this was a creation by somebody that I'd have a good laugh because I was fooled. They get paid to know more about this than I do so I'd go with their professional opinion. I would think they would simply not holder the strip if they were unsure. Their reputation isn't worth the $50 holdering fee.

barrysloate

08-22-2010, 04:46 PM

Ted- I do agree there are anomalies regarding this strip, and even to this day we are still not certain exactly how it was printed and presented to Wagner. But with Leon's post #74, at least the mystery of whether it's a continuous strip or five glued cards has been resolved. That was my only point.

FrankWakefield

08-22-2010, 04:57 PM

Barry, I don't see how Leon's post, #74, resolves that it is a continuous strip. I doesn't resolve it for me... If it does for you then it does, for you, but not for everyone. And in that post, is Leon saying that Ted makes crap up, and/or that Ted can never admit being wrong?

Whatever it really is, however it came into being, it does seem to me to be something from just before the ATT's distribution of the white border tobacco cards, I agree that it is an artifact in T206 lore. I still think it's a preproduction paste up assemblage of what could be.

barrysloate

08-22-2010, 05:15 PM

GoSoxBoSox

08-22-2010, 05:20 PM

Frank- I'm not going to speak for Leon, but Wayne Varner, who owned it for a period of time, said with certainty that it was a continuous strip. Where else but to the owner of the card would one go to settle this argument? Again, what am I missing?

How about SGC, Barry? You know. The premier pre-war grading company in our hobby that said it is an authentic proof. Thus, not a creation.

barrysloate

08-22-2010, 05:32 PM

SGC's word holds a huge amount of weight also. However, they haven't said anything about it and likely won't. Wayne, to his credit, made a statement based on being its former owner. That means a lot to me with regard to this debate.

botn

08-22-2010, 05:51 PM

SGC merely identified it as AUTHENTIC but did not define on the flip what exactly that meant. Authentic only means the item is a period piece and identifiable as relating to a certain issue referenced on the flip. What we do know is that it is a strip, whether you feel it is a post production continuous strip or made up of 5 pre production card's obverses mounted onto some kind of backing. Given that this is a unique item and nobody knows exactly what it was made for or how it was supposed to be made, not sure you can expect a grading company to do much more. We have all seen items in both SGC and PSA holders being called Authentic even after going through massive restoration. Obviously this "strip" has not but calling it anything other than Authentic would not be prudent giving there is no other example to compare it to.

GoSoxBoSox

08-22-2010, 06:05 PM

While I agree with you that we have seen SGC and PSA slab items as AUTHENTIC when they are perhaps trimmed or restored I would be shocked to find out that this proof strip would be labeled by SGC or even PSA as such if it was the creation Ted has declared that it is. 5 cards glued to a strip of paper can hardly be declared as an AUTHENTIC "T206 Proof strip". If that turns out to be true I am selling my thousands of graded cards.

benjulmag

08-22-2010, 06:18 PM

What borders on hiliarity about this, as well as the PSA 8 Wagner, is that both instances can be conclusively resolved, I believe, by taking the card/"strip" out of its holder and re examining it based on available grading standards. In the case of the "strip", if in fact it is a strip, then presumably when out of the plastic one can simply do the "feel" test and then we're done. In the case of the PSA 8, a high magnification analysis of the borders (and for that I'm not even sure it is necessary to remove the card from the slab) will show whether that card's borders has such physical characteristics that, over the years, has caused PSA to designate countless cards with comparable borders as "authentic". Really, this is not that complicated. We're not trying to solve who shot Kennedy here. In the case of the "strip", inasmuch as I don't believe its value willl be materially impacted either way whether it is a strip or individual pre production cards glued together, I am hopeful that to resolve this hobby discussion its owner will allow the out-of-holder anaysis. In the case of the 8 Wagner, based on what its sister card (Conlon Plank) realized in the 2009 REA auction, an "A" designation will be a financial death knell. So in my lifetime, and probably that of my childrens/grandchildrens, that card will never be voluntarily re examined.

HRBAKER

08-22-2010, 06:24 PM

Corey,
Maybe we could ask the former owner who has weighed in via e-m to Leon if he performed the "feel" test. I feel certain he most likely did.

Jeff

Rob D.

08-22-2010, 06:33 PM

Here is a post attributed to Wayne Varner in a previous thread on this subject (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=123958&highlight=T206+strip):

Ted Z and others, I can shed a little light on this proof strip. Back in 1978 Bill Zimpleman, Mike Wheat, Ken Blazek, and myself, Wayne Varner were on a buying trip in the Pittsburgh area and we purchased this strip from a gentleman who had purchased Wagner's house. We bought a number of items he found in the house. I cannot remember all the details, but after we purchased the strip, we had a drawing, and I won the strip. I sold it in 1980 to Barry Helper, who to my knowledge owned the strip until he passed away. I can tell you from holding the strip many times, it is not cards pasted together. Could that have been done at the factory and then potographed to send to Wagner, possibly, but not likely. However it was done, it was definately done at the factory, and has the proof lines like all the proof cards I have ever seen. I have seen the strip on several occasions since Barry passed away and it is in the same orginial condition as when I owned it from 1978 until 1980. There is no question it is orginial and unaltered no matter what anyone says. Hope this helps a little.

Wayne Varner
SHOEBOX CARDS

GoSoxBoSox

08-22-2010, 07:21 PM

Thanks Rob.

I have never seen that thread. It's interesting to me after reading it that Ted says the same thing in that thread as he does in this thread. I especially like his post #63 in that thread.
.................................................. .................................................. ...

05-23-2010, 10:10 PM
tedzan
Ted Zanidakis
Member Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,499

Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure I understand your "overlaping" comment ?

The cross-hair proof marks are very precise ID's for aligning the 6-color registration process in the printing of these cards.
Therefore, when these cards are placed adjacent to each other, I fully expect these marks to be in perfect alignment from
card to card.

Everyone has to realize that this is a pre-production piece. These are not completed cards, but thin-film like FRONTS that
I claim were affixed on a horizontal strip. Again, I repeat, the inconsistency of the colors of these 5 cards with respect to
each other is a total PRINTING IMPOSSIBILITY. I dare anyone to show me an UNCUT sheet, or strip with "crazy" colors as
these; and, lines between the cards ? ? ? ?

Regarding your last statement......."Even if you could imagine all 5 cards being precisely cut so that they could be pasted
on a strip together in such a way that all proof marks line up (I'm sure that would be an extremely difficult process itself)"

Jon....we are talking about the foremost Lithographic Co. in America back then. These printers were world class craftsmen.
This "junk" that we are mulling over here is incidental compared to the large pieces of complex artwork that they produced
on a daily basis during that era.

TED Z
.............................End of post.............................................. ..............

You posted Wayne's post #68 from that thread. Ted never posted on that thread again after Wayne posted. Very interesting.

tedzan

08-22-2010, 09:09 PM

WOW !

We have a new Gotcha Tandem (Rob D & Tom P) in motion here to bust Ted's chops. When you have nothing constructive or meaningful
to bring to the discussion, you try to go after the messenger.

Hey Tom, you don't know me....and, by your sarcastic posts here towards me, I don't care to know you. This last statement of yours.....
is quite ridiculous, as it shows either how ignorant you are, or worst yet, it's a sign of a sick mind.

"You posted Wayne's post #68 from that thread. Ted never posted on that thread again after Wayne posted. Very interesting. "

Look, I did not respond to Wayne Varner's post (dated 6/12/10) since my family and I were vacationing in Virginia that week.

But, I'll tell you what, NEWBIE ! ....the Philly Show is next month and Wayne Varner's booth is next to my booth. We will have a "knock-
down, drag-out" battle discussing this Wagner artifact....and, I'll be sure to fill you in with the blow-by-blow details.

T-Rex TED

GoSoxBoSox

08-22-2010, 09:27 PM

Ted,

You can't admit that you "might" be wrong just this once? You can say what you will about my written tone but I was just telling the facts as I saw them after examining the card thoroughly. I wasn't actually trying to sound scarcastic. Nothing I said here is not true.

There is no need to attack Wayne in Philly for giving an opinion different from yours either. It's just a debate over baseball cards.

I'm not sure why you signed your post "T-Rex Ted"? Is that another dinosaur joke about your age or something? I would hope so. Because if it was supposed to be some kind of a threat it was a classless attempt over a trivial matter.

Regards,

Newbie

Rob D.

08-22-2010, 09:29 PM

Al C.risafulli

08-22-2010, 10:06 PM

Nm, not trying to start a fight.

Al

FrankWakefield

08-23-2010, 06:26 AM

Some folks here actually post meaningful, erudite, insightful posts about old cards... exclusively or primarily. Some folks sit at their pc's like buzzards, waiting to swoop down on others, but they seldom if ever actually post anything that is about cards. Maybe about something tangentially associated to cards, but hardly ever about cards, for they know not about them.

Who of us have not bought something from someone who maybe didn't fully, completely understand and appreciate what they had? Many of us.

Who of us have ever seen a slab that was incorrect as to the identity of what was inside. Most of us.

So what a former owner thought isn't a slam-dunk argument-ender. Nor is a slip on a slab.

Wayne Varner is a good guy, he's quite knowledgeable about old ball cards. Ted Z knows a right smart, too. Neither are infallible. SGC certainly isn't infallible. For those of you who have total faith that SGC got it right, I wish you well. Wayne saying it's one way doesn't resolve it in my mind. It was years ago when he owned it, I don't know he was particularly looking for the paste-up aspect of it, sometimes an item's flaws and shortcomings aren't apparent to its owner... Wayne mentions proof lines, I don't see those. The proof marks I've seen on T206 proofs look like this " + ", not this " l ".

I've not seen this piece in person. It would have been a good reason to have gone to the National, but there are buzzards there (a good reason to avoid the National). I'm not certain Ted's right about it, but at this time I think similarly, but I'm not certain. I'm fairly sure it isn't a "proof", notwithstanding SGC's label. The traditional proof cross-marks aren't there.

We can go back and forth forever. Peace.

martyogelvie

08-23-2010, 07:13 AM

FYI
Ted has been using 'T-Rex' on his signature for a long long time...
:)

Jim VB

08-23-2010, 07:24 AM

Wayne mentions proof lines, I don't see those. The proof marks I've seen on T206 proofs look like this " + ", not this " l ".

You really don't see the "+" signs?
They're pretty obvious.

GoSoxBoSox

08-23-2010, 08:12 AM

martyogelvie

08-23-2010, 08:44 AM

why do those "Proof" "+" lines look as though they were added by someone with an inkpen??

mkdltn

08-23-2010, 09:24 AM

The + marks were drawn in with a black ink called tusche. If the T206 cards had say Eight colors plus a keystone, all eight of the stones would have the little registration marks ruled in in the exact same position. When each color was printed one over the other they make the the little black registration marks.

Leon

08-23-2010, 09:29 AM

Frank & Ted,

I, at least, thoroughly examined the proof strip and heard the testimony of others that thoroughly examined it before I came to a semi-rigid conclusion. In the end it really makes no difference to me what your opinion is on this particular topic. I was trying to have a factual debate but when those facts cornered some of you into a box you decided I'm a newbie buzzard who know nothing about old cardboard. I have seen that happen hundreds of times on N54. The truth is I have a hard time sharing anything with people that know everything already and spend so much time spreading negativity about the hobby we are supposed to love (I'm not specifically talking about you two).

You can continue to call me anything you choose if that makes you feel better. It means very little to me. Some characters on N54 have always verbally flipped-off anyone new to this forum who's opinion might differ and I suspect that childish execise of urinating around the perimeter will never change. I'd rather associate with positive open-minded pre-war collectors and do so everyday. As always, I will continue to navigate the B/S/T forums daily to pick-up more goodies and, on occasion, I will chime in over here if the mood strikes just like I have done for many years. Like it. Don't like it. Who really cares? :rolleyes:

It's just baseball cards guys. I wish you both well.

Tom

Hey Tom
It was nice finally meeting you at the National. Our dealings have always been top notch and I hope we have a ton more in the future. Unfortunately, I feel your frustration. There is so much sarcasm and antagonistic remarks (sometimes) on the board it makes me puke. You might think that as moderator I can control it. I can't. It's a no win situation. I usually just leave for a short period (hours or a day) and then come back, make a positive post or two, start a factual thread...and forget about the few people who always look at the negative, offer condolences in a sarcastic manner, and just antagonize because they are probably not happy with themselves. I can't figure it out any other way. Ya know, if I was in a hobby where all I did was complain and look at the negative (not saying we shouldn't expose fraud etc....we should) then I would find another hobby. Maybe those few people that are like that will eventually go away. We can only hope.

Doug

08-23-2010, 12:15 PM

It's just baseball cards guys. I wish you both well.

Considering I just wander over here from the postwar side on occasion, that was pretty much what I was thinking. I don't see the person that bought the strip coming on here worrying about it so I don't get the hostility and hardcore opinions about someone else's card. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, just like with PSA 8 Wagner. It would be nice to have a definitive answer I guess, but as long as the people (or person if it's the same guy) that owns those cards doesn't have an issue with them, what's the big deal? :confused:

T206Collector

08-23-2010, 01:15 PM

I'd rather associate with positive open-minded pre-war collectors and do so everyday.

There are plenty of us on here. Just admit that it's not a continuous strip and all will be forgiven. :D

FrankWakefield

08-23-2010, 01:24 PM

Jim, I now stand corrected, and was previously mistaken. I do now see the " + " marks. And those marks are how the proof marks appear. I do thank you for posting that image so I can clearly see it.

My recollection is that most of the proofs lack the name caption, maybe someone can post images of 2 or 3 proofs that show the " + " marks and either do or don't have the caption.

Does anyone recall seeing vertical lines like that on any other T206 item?

I'm not 'blahhing' the piece, I admire it. It's great. Wish it was mine. I just don't think that proof is the correct term for it, still. And I still think it's assembled. Could be wrong about that, too.

Abravefan11

08-23-2010, 06:08 PM

I too examined the strip at the National. I could see nothing that indicated to me it was created by pasting together multiple images. I believe it to be one continuous strip of cards printed at the same time.

Looking closely at the image you can see several printers marks on the strip. On the left and right of each image there is a "+" mark. On the top of each image there is a "+" mark and on the bottom there is a "l" mark. But most importantly concerning the main focus of this thread, there are "l" marks between each image top and bottom with most falling directly on the line separating the images. The one on the bottom between Bowerman and Young falls just off the line. Several are not visible as creasing has destroyed them. These marks IMO show guidelines used in the printing process for maintaining the proper separation between each image that was being printed at the same time on the same strip.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/THMI6PVzKmI/AAAAAAAAC90/NkZ5b5uuqpI/s912/Downloads1.jpg

dstudeba

08-24-2010, 10:53 AM

dstudeba

Regarding your......
" From a scan Ted determines that it is a set of individual cards put together and goes public with this theory. After much
discussion defending his view, he actually sees the piece in question, examines it through a slab, and determines that he is
indeed correct. "

"Ted", only ? ....... have you bothered to read thru this thread ? ?

Most likely not....So, I refer you to Posts #5, 6, 15, 60. Those posts were from individuals, who ALSO question that these 5
images were NOT printed as an intact strip.
Hmmmm, so what seems to be your problem with singling out only Ted ?

Yes Ted I have read through this entire thread much to my dismay. The reason I "singled" you out was I believe you were the first person to come up with the multiple cards theory in post #15 of this thread (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=123958) on May 19, 2010. I am not singling you out, but giving credit where credit is due. If you were not the person to come up with this theory I apologize.

tedzan

08-24-2010, 07:01 PM

Dan (dstudeba)

No need to apologize, I was the 1st to post on this forum my reservations regarding this strip. However, I and several other hobby "dinosaurs" have always
been skeptical of this strip's make up.

Tim C.

Those "guidelines" you referred to are simply printer's cutting marks found on most sheets (or strips).

TED Z

tedzan

08-24-2010, 07:04 PM

Hey guys, I aint conceding yet. Not until, some one (anyone) with color printing expertise can explain the following color anomalies on this 5-card strip.

1st....here is an example of how the colors on this 5-card strip should look like, if it was an intact strip of these 5 images.
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/browagbowcyoukli.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
2nd....for those who are unfamiliar with American Lithographic's 6-color printing process involved in producing the T206's. These 6 ink colors were layered
over each other in the following sequence and each layer of ink was applied simultaneously to ALL cards on a given sheet (or strip).
YELLOW
BLACK
BROWN
BLUE
DARK GREEN
RED

Now, compare the Wagner strip with the above simulated "strip" and tell us why......

1....Wagner's collar is Blue, while the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling ARE NOT Blue ?

2....Why is CYoung's uniform color missing, while the uniforms of the other 4 subjects are their proper colors ?

3....Brown and Kling have Red backgrounds; however, Bowerman's uniform missing the Red "B" ?

These are valid points that engender serious doubts regarding the claim that the images on this strip were printed simultaneously. And, so far, no one here
has yet to provide a credible explanation for these color printing anomalies.

I still maintain that what we have here are 5 individual T206 front images that were professionally pieced together by an American Litho. employee in the
T206 pre-production phase in the Spring of 1909.

TED Z

Abravefan11

08-24-2010, 07:15 PM

1....Wagner's collar is Blue, while the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling ARE NOT Blue ?

Wagners collar is not blue. Here is a side by side comparison of the strip collar and a complete image.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/THRsx2Ho8PI/AAAAAAAAC-c/NTkBZ5Hz_KI/s720/Recently%20Updated62.jpg

What appears to be blue on the strip collar is shading in the art work. If you look closely at the complete image you will see this shading under the blue. All of the collars on the strip are missing the blue ink.

tedzan

08-24-2010, 07:22 PM

So, again I ask....why are not the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling the same as Wagner ?

And, can you please explain the other two anomalies I questioned ?

TED Z

GoSoxBoSox

08-24-2010, 07:27 PM

Ted,

Good questions that I have no answer for.

You say these 6 colors were applied in layers as follows:

YELLOW
BLACK
BROWN
BLUE
DARK GREEN
RED

Can you tell me why (1) If that is the color sequence how did Brown and Kling get a RED background when they did not yet have BLUE collars yet?, and (2) How did Cy Young get a DARK GREEN background without yet having a BLUE jersey?

So much for your color sequencing.

Edited to add I think all of these points about color clearly show changes were made between the time this strip was made and production started. We would be short sighted to think this couldn't happen. That would account for all three of your points, Ted, and both of mine.

parkerj33

08-24-2010, 07:29 PM

Ted,

I don't understand the printing process, but don't the plates (or something else) determine the "mask" of where the color actually falls on a particular color run? In other words, there is some sort of masking process which causes the red to be printed on the background only portion of kling and brown and a different mask prevents the other 5 colors from also being mixed into that background. Presumably the mask for the bowerman would also have a "hole" so the red bleeds through in the shape of the "B" in the boston uniform. Now, can't it be at least *plausible* that the masks used in preparing this 5 card strip (assuming for a moment its a single strip - not individual cards) were pre-production or in some way not yet setup to print the colors as we know them today? I don't see why thats a technical impossibility. maybe they hadn't yet finalized the masks for each color run at the time they made this strip. heck...they may have just cobbed together 5 plates of players they thought would make a compelling argument to honus - for just this test run. Then in the real press runs (all with proper masks) the plates were actually printed on different sheets with different "neighbors". I am an engineer and we make prototype and "checksample" runs prior to production to uncover anomolies, production inefficiencies, bugs, and provide these as pre-production marketing units to get customers interested, etc, so the concept seems perfectly feasible.

By the way, I am not questioning anyone's knowledge, and I've never seen it in person. Just trying to understand how the knowledge of the printing process makes it implausible that it is a single strip printed together.

Abravefan11

08-24-2010, 07:45 PM

So, again I ask....why are not the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling the same as Wagner ?

The collars of the other three have an underlying color of gray or white and Wagner's is black. The color blue would have been applied over what we see on the strip. The dark shading the left side of Browns color shows through the blue on a complete card as does the shading on Bowerman and Kling.

tedzan

08-24-2010, 08:08 PM

Tom P

Regarding your......
" Can you tell me why (1) If that is the color sequence how did Brown and Kling get a RED background when they
did not yet have BLUE collars yet? "

You are making my case with this statement of yours, that these are individual images. The Blue ink application
was simply omitted. I have had T206's with the Blue color missing and others with the Red color missing.

" (2) How did Cy Young get a DARK GREEN background without yet having a BLUE jersey? "

Check again.....CYoung in the strip has background color that is a pale Green.

Regarding changes by American Litho. in their color sequencing....they used this 6-color sequence since 1895 when
this Litho. Company was founded.

TED Z

GoSoxBoSox

08-24-2010, 08:13 PM

Ted,

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at with your three points? Because your three points along with my two points simply tell me that changes were made to the design of the cards between the time the cards on this strip were designed and the final cards were designed.

To me, that accounts for this entire color issue.

Tom

Edited to add that I checked and the green's look the same to me no matte rhow many times I look. Besides, the shades of color aren't the issue here. The timing of art designs is the issue.

Al C.risafulli

08-24-2010, 08:36 PM

Part of what i do for a living is buy printing. I am not a printer, I am a customer of printers. I release artwork to a printer every day of my life, and i have done so for the last six years.

Given that each of the people who I have spoken with at have actually held this sheet in its raw form have stated that it's a continuous strip, and each of those people is more knowledgeable about cards than me, I tend to believe them.

In terms of the colors and whatnot, that is fairly easily explained, IMO, as some sort of pre production press sheet. Im sure that there were many of these made before the final art was approved, and it certainly wouldn't have been difficult for someone to slice off a row of five of them and give them to a friend, after all, in 1909 these were just cigarette pack stiffeners and not six figure pieces of American history.

Al

Peter_Spaeth

08-24-2010, 08:51 PM

Ted wrote
"Tim C.

Those "guidelines" you referred to are simply printer's cutting marks found on most sheets (or strips)."

So doesn't that suggest that it is indeed an intact strip and not 5 cards glued together?

mkdltn

08-24-2010, 08:55 PM

I believe there are more than six colors and that there are nine. eight colors plus a key. The key being the halftone image base on a photograph or ink drawing.

I have progressive proof books of cigar labels made by ALC contemporary in time frame with the T206. I will post some of the pages. the color anomolies are entirely explainable. Everything I see really points to this being a proof. it must have been done during the proving phase of production, more specifically on the top floor of the ALC building.

The way the color anomolies can be explained is as follows:

The artwork for each color was executed on stones or metal plates.
a separate one for each. When a proof was run each color was run one over the other through a proof press for my ALC cigar labels it went like this:

yellow (opaque)
red (opaque)
light brown (transparent)
Dark brown I think mostly opaque
Buff- this is the flesh color in the faces
light blue transparent
Dark blue (mostly opaque)
pink-transparent
lake or sometimes called medium red
finally Grey
And in the case of my cigar labels gold-think gold border cards.

In the case of the T206 card the color order is I believe a bit different due to the use of the Halftone image being used for the dark and midtone aspect of the image, at least in the portraits.

some inks were transparent meaning the color below showed through

Now what if you ran each color through the press before the artist was done?

the first picture (Proof1) is the first page of the proof book, technically the last as the book was compiled from back to front, This image is in my opinion is analogous to the proof strip, It does not match the production image. this was run before the corrections were made to the image. This is what I love about my proof books is that the image in front is very very unique.

The second picture (Proof2) is the original Lake plate run in black with the a printer's note in pencil saying what material needs to be added.

the third picture (Proof3) is from a second run in black ink which reflects the change that was made. this impression is glued into the book after the first black impression.

I hope this helps some as far as printing knowledge I am a graphic designer so I am somewhat familiar with modern techniques in printing. Not printer knowledge but enough. This is what started me on this whole thing, I saw the high res cards on the LOC site and was absolutley amazed at what I was looking at and HAD to find out how these were printed. As my wife will attest to this has become my obsession for the last two years and am satisfied that I now have a pretty darn good grasp of how 19th century lithography was done.

Al C.risafulli

08-24-2010, 09:03 PM

Outstanding post.

Al

GoSoxBoSox

08-24-2010, 09:03 PM

Everything I see really points to this being a proof. it must have been done during the proving phase of production, more specifically on the top floor of the ALC building.

You wrote alot about the process ALC used but what is it about this specific Wagner proof strip that makes you feel this is a proof? and do you think it's a "proof strip"? Why or why not?

Good stuff.

Matt

08-24-2010, 09:06 PM

So T206s were the result of a 9 color printing process. We learn something new about the issue every day it seems.
Fascinating post.

baseballart

08-24-2010, 09:10 PM

"I believe there are more than six colors and that there are nine. eight colors plus a key."

I'm not sure I'm counting correctly, but aren't there nine colors plus a key?

Max

mkdltn

08-24-2010, 09:38 PM

Several things first the presence of the proof marks, when the image from the original stone or plate was transferred to the larger production stone or plate the proof marks were removed from the transfers.

transfers: when the art on the original stone was done it was etched and inked with transfer ink then was printed on to a transfer paper (a paper sized with some time of gelatin surface) This was done multiple times and applied face down to the large stone in perfect alighnment to one another which is a whole other story.

If you look closely at the high res Bowerman card on LOC and look at the right side you will see that the register mark on the pink transfer was not removed.

2. I think comments have been made on the vivid colors which is indicitive of an image that has not "suffered" through the transfer process and the wear associated with a large press run. It looks like something run from the original art stone or plate.

3. Another aspect is the dead on register. This was likely run by one person on a small press, one small sheet at a time.

4. The last is the color anomolies. This looks to be an image in prototype phase just like the first image in the proof books.

What makes me think this is a continuous proof strip?

mostly to me It simply looks like a duck....... :)

mkdltn

08-24-2010, 09:56 PM

"I believe there are more than six colors and that there are nine. eight colors plus a key."

I'm not sure I'm counting correctly, but aren't there nine colors plus a key

Sorry about that, the colors I listed were those used in the label proof. I believe there are less used in the cards due to the fact a Halftone image was used. I think only one red was used, could be wrong.

These cards and the other items created by ALC and many many others
Are extraordinary examples of a nearly lost art by insanely talented craftsman and artists.

onlychild

08-24-2010, 10:15 PM

Here is a super close-up of Ted's examples directly compared to the strip.

To me, it shows the strip lacks both blue and red. Looking at the lips, cheeks and other places red is located, it seems that (like the blue) various shading methods were used to give a red-like appearance.

The skin tones might even suggest that yellow may(?) be missing or faded as well. Shading again?

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/6065/stripcomp.jpg

Kevin

GoSoxBoSox

08-25-2010, 06:01 AM

Thanks mkdltn, Kevin and Peter.

I am more convinced than ever it is a continuous strip.

tedzan

08-25-2010, 07:14 AM

Your scan of my simulated strip overlapping the Wagner strip is really cool.

Thanks.

TED Z

Jay Wolt

08-25-2010, 07:14 AM

I am more convinced than ever it is a continuous strip.

Tom, I agree as well. Wasn't all that sure when the debate started, but it sure seems SGC got it right.
Look at Kevin's side by side comparison. Especially the Cy Young next to the Johnny Kling.
Even though its creased & tattered, there is no seperation of the 2 cards.
You would think if the piece was this beat up after a century, the cards would start to seperate.

tedzan

08-25-2010, 07:14 AM

Following up on that excellent post (#131).....in the latter part of the 19th Century, lithography was at it's peak. And, as many as 9 color passes were
employed to create the more elaborate art of that era. Shown here is the 1889 Goodwin Champions Album. It was produced by the Geo. Harris & Sons
Lithographic Co. (Philadelphia). Here is the cover of this album and one of its 12 pages. In my opinion, this is the most remarkable example of sports art.
It is absolutely sports lithography at it's best....and, my most favorite piece in my collection.

<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/A36cover.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/Champions2.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

Early in the 20th Century, Joseph P. Knapp (founder of American Lithographic Co.) refined color lithography, by using 6 color layers in the printing process.
Scot Reader's well researched book "Inside T206" (pages 5-7) describes the 6-color sequence used to print the T206 cards......
YELLOW
BLACK
BROWN
BLUE
DARK GREEN
RED

Modern color printing (the past 70+ years) employs the layering of only 4 colors......
BLACK
YELLOW
CYAN (blue)
MAGENTA

Gentleman, just check-out the ink cartridges in your Copier/Printer to verify this.

TED Z

GoSoxBoSox

08-25-2010, 08:13 AM

I checked my HP ink jet printer Ted. I have five small color cartridges and one big black ink cartridge. Do you have any other irrelevant requests?

Back to the topic at hand.

FrankWakefield

08-25-2010, 08:29 AM

Tom, that was a polite, civil post. Very helpful.

tedzan

08-25-2010, 08:37 AM

What the hell is your problem ?

And, to your......
" Do you have any other irrelevant requests? "

In an earlier post, you disparaged the "6-color printing process used to produce the T206's", that I spoke of.
And, I just clarified it in my last post by referring to Scot Reader's research....is that RELEVANT....or what ?

If you can't conduct a positive, meaningful discussion here....THEN DROP OFF !

TED Z

GoSoxBoSox

08-25-2010, 08:55 AM

Grow up guys.

Ted asked us gentlemen to check our printers and I did. It's just that I find that checking the number of color printer cartridges in the year 2010 to be totally irrelevant to the issue at hand and I said so.

I fail to see how that is seen as me being uncivil?

To each his own, I guess.

Leon

08-25-2010, 09:10 AM

A nice polite discussion on the strip would be good. It's cardboard guys. We are all passionate collectors. Lets quit making it so personal. It's not. It's a baseball card discussion. No one is going to be better or worse because of it. I know Tom a little bit and Ted a little bit more. You are both nice guys....and I am sure in person you will shake hands and have a polite discussion without anyone getting defensive. Lets try to do it here too....best regards

barrysloate

08-25-2010, 09:25 AM

Agreed. Ted made a very fair and civil post and was needlessly attacked for it.

This has been a fascinating thread for many reasons, and the last 24 hours have been filled with information. Kudos to mkdltn (that's not your real name, is it?) for some incredibly helpful information on the early color printing process. Might I suggest that at the least it should be archived as it is useful information and a valuable resource.

All that said, I am amazed that we are approaching 150 posts on a thread dealing with whether or not this is a continuous strip or a amalgamation of parts. Pretty amazing.

Al C.risafulli

08-25-2010, 09:31 AM

I think Tom was sort of written off by Ted as a "newbie" who didn't know what he was talking about, maybe five or six pages ago. As a friend of Tom's, when I read that, it stung. Had it been me, I'd be a little belligerent towards Ted as well.

As an acquaintance of Ted's, I think this debate has really been put to bed for quite some time, and I can't understand why it keeps being brought up. It seems less out of a desire for a scholarly debate, and more out of stubbornness. Every logical argument is being illogically refuted or ignored, and I don't understand why.

So maybe some of us are getting a little frayed as a result.

-Al

Peter_Spaeth

08-25-2010, 09:36 AM

Perhaps we should have a poll?

Doug

08-25-2010, 09:37 AM

I think this debate has really been put to bed for quite some time, and I can't understand why it keeps being brought up. It seems less out of a desire for a scholarly debate, and more out of stubbornness. Every logical argument is being illogically refuted or ignored, and I don't understand why.

So maybe some of us are getting a little frayed as a result.

-Al

I was kind of thinking the same thing. It seems like everyone has come to their own conclusion and if they haven't changed their minds by now they probably aren't going to.

GoSoxBoSox

08-25-2010, 10:14 AM

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm a lover, not a fighter. :rolleyes:

However, I must say that for Barry to say that Ted was "needlessly attacked" makes me laugh out loud. I was called a "NEWBIE" and looked down upon by Ted immediately when I questioned him. Everytime anybody calls Ted's on his "facts" he cries foul intead of answering the questions with logical observations (because nobody will ever have facts in this particular case). Frank makes ever attempt to push me aside without bringing ANYTHING to the table. He hasn't even held the proof strip to examine it. But, at least Frank doesn't act like what he has seen in scans is "fact". Thank you for that Frank.

Just because you fella's know a thing about me doesn't mean I haven't been around for a long time. Many people here know me regardless of how often I post on N54. I did hold the strip and I did examine it thoroughly. That is the only reason I chimed in. I have posted about my observations and many many people apparently agree with those observations.

The difference between Ted and I, in this case, is that I call what I saw "observations" while he calls them "facts". Also, I try to help answer his issues about the strip while he continually ignores everybodys logical observations that refute his "facts" (post #128, 129, 130, 131, and 136 to name the most recent). That's all.

I find it entertaining when I run into this type of person. He does a little bit of homework and appoints himself the expert. heh

Anyway, I believe our point about Ted's opinion here has been made. I'm done with this now Leon as I'm sure nothing will change if we continue to ask questions. I apologize if this caused a disturbance on your watch.

Tom

E93

08-25-2010, 10:17 AM

barrysloate

08-25-2010, 10:20 AM

Tom- sorry then for that. This thread is already too long for me to remember posts made several days ago (or whenever). I didn't realize you and Ted were already at it. I apologize for it.

GoSoxBoSox

08-25-2010, 10:36 AM

Tom- sorry then for that. This thread is already too long for me to remember posts made several days ago (or whenever). I didn't realize you and Ted were already at it. I apologize for it.

No problem at all Barry. I certainly understand.

Leon

08-25-2010, 12:35 PM

Hey Tom
I do agree with you. My good friend Ted (hey Ted) sometimes does feel he is being attacked when someone is only trying to have a civil debate and not agreeing with him. I like Ted a lot and he is one of the best hosts a guy could have, while said guy is freeloading at his house :). Barry and wife were great hosts too, again as I was freeloading at their abode. Basically I just go from city to city freeloading and staying at board member's houses. I just need to find a place that will accept me, my wife and my soon to be 14 yr old, and I will have it made :).

But getting back to the strip debate I am glad some good info has come out and the post(s) about the printing processes are extremely good. After reading everything in this thread I am in the "single strip" camp.

I hope everyone will continue to post, be civil and debate our little gems. That is what this board is best for...and I might add has more collective knowledge about vintage cards on it than anywhere else I can think of. best regards