anyone want to go in on the 99% complete t206 set [Archive]

Jim VB

08-14-2010, 03:01 PM

Jim- it's all about the stuff.

I know that Barry, but it frustrates the hell out of me. How do the guys with felony convictions get "the stuff?" Consignors have to consent to do business with them while disregarding their past.

We have one high profile hobbyist trying to form an association to clean up the hobby and the two highest profile auctioneers he gets to go in with him???

This is where we go to clean it up? Heaven help us!

Jim VB

08-14-2010, 03:05 PM

Nothing personal but cards are cards as long as there not stolen,if i need them i'm buying them.

And THAT is part of the problem, I guess. Cards trumping moral standards.

JIM V. WHY DO YOU ALWAYS WANT TO DISAGREE WITH EVERYONE.

I really don't. I'm actually a pretty agreeable person (Dorskind Group, notwithstanding.) I just have high standards about where my money goes to and who it supports.

barrysloate

08-14-2010, 03:06 PM

I don't know Jim. It's a mystery to me too.

forazzurri2axz

08-14-2010, 03:08 PM

HRBAKER

08-14-2010, 03:25 PM

Jim I understand your POV but your dealing with cardboard crack here, the stuff wins out most of the time.

Jim VB

08-14-2010, 03:32 PM

didn't he serve his time in prison?? Can't someone start with a clean slate and be given the benefit of the doubt under those circumstances til the prove otherwise?? and my GUESS is that you voted for people in the past who did far worse than he....

Hey Bill, I do understand. I believe he did serve his time for the financial fraud (I don't believe there was anything "criminal" in the re-holdering, just "shady," but to me, that alone may be the example proving "otherwise.") I am in favor of letting people have a second chance, but, depending on the circumstances, I may not let them do it with my money.

Anyway, sorry for interupting your post. I hope you get a partner and your cards. In many ways, I understand the buyers buying from these houses. It's the consignors that are harder to fathom.

Jim VB

08-14-2010, 03:33 PM

Jim I understand your POV but your dealing with cardboard crack here, the stuff wins out most of the time.

I know. I know. If this was heroin our veins would have collapsed by now.

calvindog

08-14-2010, 03:50 PM

I know that Barry, but it frustrates the hell out of me. How do the guys with felony convictions get "the stuff?" Consignors have to consent to do business with them while disregarding their past.

We have one high profile hobbyist trying to form an association to clean up the hobby and the two highest profile auctioneers he gets to go in with him??? One has a conviction for financial fraud and has been caught getting cards reholdered, with different cert numbers, so he can re-sell them after he has, supposedly, auctioned them off. The other has a criminal conviction on his record for ...
This is where we go to clean it up? Heaven help us!

Jim, where do you draw the line? So guys with fraud convictions and sex offenses are no good. What about those with drug or extortion convictions? If we removed all those with shady pasts from the hobby I suspect we wouldn't have many people selling us cards.

And I'm more concerned about those committing fraud now than those who have sold drugs or served time for fraud in the past. I know this is heresy on this board, but I'd sooner trust JP Cohen than I would anyone associated with some of the other auction houses any day of the week. JP was in jail and knows that it sucks. He's less likely (in my opinion) to take a chance on going back there than some of the other demented guys selling cards out there today who think that they'll never get caught.

slidekellyslide

08-14-2010, 03:50 PM

What?

calvindog

08-14-2010, 03:51 PM

Dan, it's Barry -- but he's cleaned his act up now so have no fear. :)

Peter_Spaeth

08-14-2010, 04:01 PM

And THAT is part of the problem, I guess. Cards trumping moral standards.

We (collectively) would draw the line someplace wouldn't we? I mean if Al Qaeda had a benefit auction we wouldn't bid, right?

Jim VB

08-14-2010, 04:05 PM

We (collectively) would draw the line someplace wouldn't we? I mean if Al Qaeda had a benefit auction we wouldn't bid, right?

:rolleyes:

What did you hear they had coming up?

barrysloate

08-14-2010, 04:09 PM

Who me?:confused:

barrysloate

08-14-2010, 04:10 PM

We (collectively) would draw the line someplace wouldn't we? I mean if Al Qaeda had a benefit auction we wouldn't bid, right?

What if Al Qaeda had pop 1's?

Browncow75

08-14-2010, 04:16 PM

If we didnt deal with people who have screwed up "in the past" there wouldbt be a whole lot of people with the collections they have now. You know who you are!!

HRBAKER

08-14-2010, 04:17 PM

We (collectively) would draw the line someplace wouldn't we? I mean if Al Qaeda had a benefit auction we wouldn't bid, right?

Would they keep the bidding records? Forget it, what am I thinking. :)

My guess is the line would be drawn well before this hopefully.

calvindog

08-14-2010, 04:21 PM

I suspect even al Qaeda would keep bidding records.

Browncow75

08-14-2010, 04:24 PM

Who'd want a Bin Laden rookie card anyway?

slidekellyslide

08-14-2010, 04:30 PM

I suspect even al Qaeda would keep bidding records.

They'll be posted to Wikileaks any day now.

Jim VB

08-14-2010, 04:35 PM

Who'd want a Bin Laden rookie card anyway?

It would give me the complete, mirror image set.

Jim VB

08-14-2010, 04:38 PM

JP was in jail and knows that it sucks. He's less likely (in my opinion) to take a chance on going back there than some of the other demented guys selling cards out there today who think that they'll never get caught.

Point taken. I don't know him personally. He may well be a reformed man. I will probably choose not to do business with him, but will not try to push my feelings on others.

slidekellyslide

08-14-2010, 04:42 PM

Point taken. I don't know him personally. He may well be a reformed man. I will probably choose not to do business with him, but will not try to push my feelings on others.

Well, I doubt JP is a hardened criminal, but the rates of recidivism in this country hurts Jeff's point IMO. Lots of people go to jail and never learn anything.

calvindog

08-14-2010, 04:44 PM

Well, I doubt JP is a hardened criminal, but the rates of recidivism in this country hurts Jeff's point IMO. Lots of people go to jail and never learn anything.

True but you have to understand that the country's jails are filled with those convicted of drug offenses. Take them out of the mix and the numbers change dramatically.

slidekellyslide

08-14-2010, 04:51 PM

True but you have to understand that the country's jails are filled with those convicted of drug offenses. Take them out of the mix and the numbers change dramatically.

Just like drug offenders there are those who just can't help themselves when it comes to other types of crimes. I don't want to make any assumptions about JP Cohen though because I don't know the guy...you're probably right that he knows jail sucks and would not do anything that could send him back there.

calvindog

08-14-2010, 04:59 PM

I'm only speaking from personal experience so this is hardly a relevant population to draw any real conclusions from, but in my practice the most common recidivists are narcotics offenders.

slidekellyslide

08-14-2010, 05:02 PM

I'm only speaking from personal experience so this is hardly a relevant population to draw any real conclusions from, but in my practice the most common recidivists are narcotics offenders.

Heh, Jeff, I gave up this argument when I realized I was arguing the criminal mind with a Defense Attorney. :D

calvindog

08-14-2010, 05:19 PM

Heh, Jeff, I gave up this argument when I realized I was arguing the criminal mind of a Defense Attorney. :D

Fixed it for you.

calvindog

08-14-2010, 05:19 PM

slidekellyslide

08-14-2010, 05:20 PM

+1

It's poor form to +1 your own post.

calvindog

08-14-2010, 05:24 PM

It's poor form to +1 your own post.

+1

Peter_Spaeth

08-14-2010, 05:29 PM

Heh, Jeff, I gave up this argument when I realized I was arguing with a criminal. :D

Here, I fixed it for you.
+1

calvindog

08-14-2010, 05:40 PM

Here, I fixed it for you.
+1

++++++++1 (in honor of the puffery found in ebay listings)

iggyman

08-14-2010, 06:34 PM

Okay-Then!

23322

This thread is now complete!

Lovely Day...

botn

08-15-2010, 09:00 AM

Assuming the auction is not still in the 15 minute rule and Bill ends up having won it, I have heard JP would be willing to drive to pick up a cash payment.

calvindog

08-15-2010, 10:47 AM

Greg, there are no cash payments in the hobby. Such payments would suggest that perhaps sellers might not have records of their sales and might be hiding such information from the IRS. When I was at the National no one would accept cash and checkbooks and credit cards were being flashed left and right. I'm sure that JP and the rest of the dealers out there wouldn't want to have an IRS problem.

botn

08-15-2010, 12:07 PM

Jeff you mean if a dealer, like JP, were carrying around a duffel bag of cash at a show he would not just take it to the bank to deposit it to his account?

WhenItWasAHobby

08-15-2010, 01:10 PM

It is indeed a perplexing decision when to regard someone who for past indiscretions and has paid their "debt to society" to be considered trustworthy.

Fortunately, Professional Sports Authenticators, (PSA), the guardians and protectors of sports hobbyists for corruption, fraud and all other nefarious activities brings clear and concise moral guidance to these issues.

JP Cohen is a PSA Authorized Dealer. According to PSA's rigorous and stringent standards for authorized dealers, one critieria that must be met is that an "Applicant and key employees must not have been convicted of a felony in the past five years".

http://www.psacard.com/about/faq.chtml#faqid71

Can anyone here enlighten me why it's 5 years and not 4 or 6 or 10? What happens at 5 years that makes someone trustworthy beyond reproach?

I do rest at ease recalling Collector Universe president and PSA founder David Hall's famous quote, "We are dedicated to protecting collectibles consumers from fraud and misrepresentation in any form. We also fervently value our brand name. We will continue to work to protect collectors, and our own reputation, zealously."

Peter_Spaeth

08-15-2010, 01:19 PM

Dan it's probably somewhat arbitrary but I also wonder how rigorously it's enforced?

calvindog

08-15-2010, 02:01 PM

That's hilarious! Sounds like PSA should be in a leadership role in any trade association created to zealously enforce standards and ethics in our hobby.

WhenItWasAHobby

08-15-2010, 04:04 PM

Dan it's probably somewhat arbitrary but I also wonder how rigorously it's enforced?

Peter,

That's a good question. I have no idea. For some odd reason I didn't get my annual invite to the PSA Registry Luncheon at the National and it would have been a nice question for Joe Orlando's Q&A session.

I think there's something mystical about the number "5" in this hobby. I recall one prominant PSA registry collector once admitting on the CU message board: "I bought a lot of raw cards in early 1990s which came back trimmed on first submission. If upon inspection it is far from obvious to me that they are in fact trimmed I resubmit 2, 3 or even 4 times.--never more than 4 though."

Yeah, there's definitely something special about the number "5" that separates good from evil.

WhenItWasAHobby

08-15-2010, 04:32 PM

That's hilarious! Sounds like PSA should be in a leadership role in any trade association created to zealously enforce standards and ethics in our hobby.

Jeff,

I'm not sure if you saw that thread where Collectors Universe and PCGS (the coin grading division) has filed suit against a group of coin doctors. Here's the news release and actual complaint:

http://coinsblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/pcgs-sues-alleged-coin-doctors.html

http://www.coinlink.com/News/pdf/CU_vs_Coin_doctors.pdf

One of the causes of action is unfair competition. The question then begs to be asked, "Unfair to whom"? Well as it turns out, the same David Hall, president of Collectors Universe as mentioned above, runs a huge coin business, humbly called, "David Hall Rare Coins".

Using that logic, it would follow what this hobby needs as a safeguard is for PSA president Joe Orlando to start up his own PSA graded card business and call it something like, "Joe Orlando Rare Cards", then we'd see a big crackdown on these alleged card doctors that are rumored to exist in this hobby.

Peter_Spaeth

08-15-2010, 04:42 PM

The suit alleges that over time, the chemicals used in doctoring cause changes in the surface of the coins, making it apparent that they have been doctored. So at least in that realm, the problem may be self-lmiting. It's interesting that PSA admits it can't detect the alterations though...

botn

08-15-2010, 04:47 PM

The threads from 2007, when the JP Cohen fraud story broke, made the point that Memory Lane Inc was registered to someone other than JP, PSA’s site did not list JP as a contact nor did Memory Lane’s site refer to him. I suppose that was the way PSA justified Memory Lane being able to maintain their dealership even while JP was in jail, I mean the mortgage business. Reassuring, isn’t it?

Before this turns into a PSA bashing session let's not forget the corporate structure at SGC and their associated scandals. It is nothing more than a dog and pony show for both companies and both have severely compromised their product.

Jim VB

08-15-2010, 06:49 PM

Industry theme song:

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