1915 Federal League Cracker Jacks

[Yankeefan51]

For the past 12 years, a major focus our collection has been to build the hobby's premiere collection of Federal League memorabilia and high grade Federal League baseball cards.

Accordingly the 1915 Cracker Jack set, which contains 49 Federal League Players, has consumed much of our effort.

Over the past 5 years, less than 100 PSA 8 Federal League Cracker Jacks have appeared as single lots from the major auction houses (the majority emanating from Mile High, Memory Lane and Goodwin)

Remarkably, several players have appeared 5-6 times, a few 2-3 times and at least 20 of the Federal League players appeared once or not all.

What has been your experience in collecting Federal League Cracker Jacks- population reports aside? Which Federal League Players appear to be the mostdifficult (not the most valuable- because those are HOFs) to obtain?

POPULATION BY SIZE 5 OR LESS= 1 6=14 10-13=24 14-20=11
TEAM POPULATION" Baltimore 5, Brooklyn 8, Buffalo 5 Chicago 5
Indianapolis 8, Kansas City 4. Pittsbugh 7 St. Louis 8

Finally, we'd be interested to hear from anyone who has recently obtained a new and important Federal League card and/or significant piece of Federal League memorabilia. Thanks in advance.

We will see you at the National

Best,

Bruce Dorskind
bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com
America's Toughest Want List

[FrankWakefield]

I know a bit about the Cracker Jack cards, and know that there's more for me to learn about them. For some reason I have in my head that the George Suggs card is a good one to try to get. Bruce, you didn't mention your experience or beliefs about such, what do you think?

[packs]

It has been my experience that the ultra high grade Federal League cards are harder to come by because for whatever reason the card stock seems to be produce condescension when slabbed.

[Jim VB]

I know a bit about the Cracker Jack cards, and know that there's more for me to learn about them. For some reason I have in my head that the George Suggs card is a good one to try to get. Bruce, you didn't mention your experience or beliefs about such, what do you think?

Sorry Frank. With Bruce, it's a one way street.

[Jim VB]

...the card stock seems to be produce condescension when slabbed.



Best. Typo. Ever.

[barrysloate]

I don't think it was a typo!

[Jim VB]

If it wasn't a typo, then I tip my hat to packs.

[packs]

Haha not a typo

[FrankWakefield]

Brilliant!!

[Jim VB]

Haha not a typo

In that case:

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[barrysloate]

It was indeed a clever use of words.

It would be nice if Bruce answered Frank's question. Frank took the time to give a detailed response, and when you start a thread you should pay attention to what people have to say.

Just my two cents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just speaking for myself, I would be pretty skeptical about any CJ in an 8 or 9 holder.

[Yankeefan51]

Three comments

1. The real typo is the very fact that JIM VB is still alive and kicking with his
silly comments. When one is discussing the subject of condensation, one need look no further than the few remaining brain (brainless) cells in this low life red neck's excuse for a mind

2. We do respond to posts, but in the 90 minutes between the time we originally posted and the time we were "bashed' for not posting, we were working with a client in Greece on a $1000 hour consulting project.

3. As for Mr. Suggs- we recently obtained his card from a Board Member who responded to one of our most recent America's Toughest Want List posts.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

[Kawika]

Where's the popcorn smilie when you need it?

[Jim VB]

How's this one David?

[Jim VB]

Three comments

1. The real typo is the very fact that JIM VB is still alive and kicking with his
silly comments. When one is discussing the subject of condensation, one need look no further than the few remaining brain (brainless) cells in this low life red neck's excuse for a mind

2. We do respond to posts, but in the 90 minutes between the time we originally posted and the time we were "bashed' for not posting, we were working with a client in Greece on a $1000 hour consulting project.

3. As for Mr. Suggs- we recently obtained his card from a Board Member who responded to one of our most recent America's Toughest Want List posts.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

.

[Yankeefan51]

Jim VB


The BS Meter you created is designed for you. In fact, it would be best
if we you threw you in the barn with a bunch of smelly old cows
horses, and pigs and they could BS all over you

Of course, we would be happy to challenge you with regard to either the Suggs card or the consulting assignment. How does $10,000 sound.

We're sure it is about time to go feed the pigs and the other members of your family. Keep up good work, Mr. BS


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

after all these years, nobody is more interesting than bruce(s). he does have some incredible material, who else could call jim vb a brainless redneck and no one is really offended by it. it does seem he was trolling a bit to obtain some tough cards, or information for this subset. never-the-less its always an entertaining read with his and all the others comments.

1915 cracker jacks in psa 8 seem to be quite available, perhaps alot of sets were sent from the factory in those days and kept safe. 1914 is another story entirely, randy stuckemeyers set (on the sgc registry) is astonishing.

bruce owns perhaps one of the most incredible small group of cards in the hobby, an intact 4 panel group of 1914 boston garters (if he hasnt sold it off)

bruce, if you are reading this, what are the players on the piece?

[Jim VB]

Rand,

You weren't greatly offended by the mean, hurtful, names Bruce called me??? I was crushed I tell you, just crushed.

Wow. You must have thick skin!

(See for yourself who is on the panel. Looks like Chance, Bescher, Clarke and Chase.)

[barrysloate]

Well this may not have been the response I was anticipating...but at least Bruce responded.

[Jim VB]

We're sure it is about time to go feed the pigs and the other members of your family.


You're absolutely correct. We have reservations this evening at the Mansion on Turtle Creek. I should hurry.

[barrysloate]

Come to think of it...don't we have a board rule that states you may not discuss someone's family?:)

[Yankeefan51]

We will we never sell this item, but we plan to leave it to a museum
which will obtain a large part of our collection


There are two HOF's and two non-HOF on the sheet. It can be found in several books including Baseball Archaeology-photography by Brett Wills

We will soon be commissioning Mr. Wills to catalog our entire collection
and we will sell as a table top book

The aforementioned Garter Sheet can be found page 47 of the book
Players are: Chance, Clarke, Besher and Hal Chase.

To the best of our knowledge this is the only known such sheet

Remarkably it was discovered in 1985 by Mr. Mint who had no idea what it was. He sold it to Mastro who sold it to Lifson who sold it to me

Bruce Dorsskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Jim VB]

1915 cracker jacks in psa 8 seem to be quite available, perhaps alot of sets were sent from the factory in those days and kept safe. 1914 is another story entirely, randy stuckemeyers set (on the sgc registry) is astonishing.



By the way Rand, you are absolutely correct on this. The 1914 cards were only available in boxes of Cracker Jacks, so their condition is usually rough. The 1915 were available through the mail and they seem to have held up much better.

[Jim VB]

Come to think of it...don't we have a board rule that states you may not discuss someone's family?:)

We don't mind, in this case. (A couple of them are pretty sloppy.)

[Kawika]

We will we never sell this item, but we plan to leave it to a museum
which will obtain a large part of our collection


There are two HOF's and two non-HOF on the sheet. It can be found in several books including Baseball Archaeology-photography by Brett Wills

We will soon be commissioning Mr. Wills to catalog our entire collection
and we will sell as a table top book

The aforementioned Garter Sheet can be found page 47 of the book
Players are: Chance, Clarke, Besher and Hal Chase.

To the best of our knowledge this is the only known such sheet

Remarkably it was discovered in 1985 by Mr. Mint who had no idea what it was. He sold it to Mastro who sold it to Lifson who sold it to me

Bruce Dorsskind
America's Toughest Want List
Make sure you spell Dorskind correctly on the table top book.

[Yankeefan51]

As long as JM VB keeps firing bullets, we will return the favor with nuclear
missiles. His unprovoked commentary on everything we write is a tribute
to his total lack of character and a disregard for the rules against personal
attack. Personally, we'd like to see him cross the border from Mexico
into Arizona and see what our hero, Sheriff Joe Arpaio and his team, do to solve the Jim VB problem.

The eyes of Texas are upon you, Jim

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
(212) 734-7362

[barrysloate]

Bruce- Don't mean to nitpick, but wouldn't you say some of your posts are sorta kinda personal attacks?

[FrankWakefield]

3 things...

First, the 1914 cards aren't found rougher because they were available only one at a time in boxes while the 1915 cards were available through the mail... was the 1914 container really a box? True the 1915 cards could be obtained as mentioned on the backs of the 1915 cards, the set for a quarter. But two serious factors about the condition difference, 1914 cards are on what is closer to thick paper than cardstock, the 1915 cards are much thicker / stiffer. And secondly, kids who jumbled them together towards making a set shuffled the cards about, with the 1914 cards going through one extra year of wear and tear. That's why the 1914s are more subject to damage, and are worn more.

Second, Bruce, if you've just acquired Suggs, do you feel that his card was less available because it took you longer to acquire one? I know you seek pristine cards, was it that you saw lots of Suggs' cards, but only recently one up to your standards? Or do you think you've seen fewer Suggs cards than some of the others that you previously acquired??

I have a scan of my 6 Cracker Jack cards depicting Federal League players. I know they fall way short of your standards, Bruce. I would pick them up when the opportunity presented, the Cracker Jack cards show the Federal League uniforms, that's not the case with the T213 Federal Leaguers. One card, the Falkenburg that is in the top left corner, is a 1914 card. The other 5 are 1915 cards.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/CrackerJackFederalLeaguecards.jpg

Third, thank you Bruce for responding, notwithstanding the chatter from the others. Bruce, any of the cards seem more difficult to you than the others, or super easy? Anyone else have a feel for that?

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

jim, this is so freakin funny that i hope you can take a step back and laugh a little. 1914 CJ's are so so tough to find unstained (for obvious reasons) randy's set was factory sent and the person who brought it the collecting world hand the orginal envelope it was sent in, the mathewson graded sgc 86 and jackson an sgc 98 (gem mint). a once in a life time acquisition.

the 1915's (a full year later) had pleny of mail in offers from the 1914 boxes, so makes sense on the availability. everyone already knows this.

bruce, thanks for the info on the panel. are you a set collector as well or mainly a type card collector?

have you obtained any of the other boston garter singles?

jim, btw, mansion at turtle creek IS a top top destination and has won every award available in the fine dining industry.

[Rob D.]

Bruce Dorsskind
America's Toughest Want List

Make sure you spell Dorskind correctly on the table top book.

Legitimate lol.

[Rich Klein]

The least you could do is invite Leon and myself to tag along and put us on your tab. Bet we're better company than whomever else you invite :cool:

[calvindog]

Bruce- Don't mean to nitpick, but wouldn't you say some of your posts are sorta kinda personal attacks?

I'm hardly here to defend Bruce, but didn't he just start an earnest thread here?

[Rich Klein]

But, for whatever reason, he is also a lightning rod for issues on the board. Barry pointed out one of the major flaws is that Bruce makes the initial post and then usually dances away. If he helped to keep the posts on the topic, some of the dancing might stop.

Yes, I understand this is a two way street but,....

Rich

[calvindog]

Rich, Frank posted his question at 5:15 pm. Barry thought it would be nice if Bruce responded at 5:42 pm. Bruce responded at 6:01 pm. Not everyone on the board is retired or otherwise available 24/7 to respond to questions, after all, Bruce has a career and was working today. Is 46 minutes an unreasonable amount of time in which to respond for a guy who was working?

Bruce no doubt deserves a lot of the crap he gets here but I can't see what he did in this thread to deserve the almost immediate abuse he received.

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

i am glad bruce followed the board to the new system. he asked some good questions and has alot of knowledge. there are others that did not come aboard because the site was to confusing.

i like how bruce defends himself, its almost unfair to any attacker because the odds are 2 against 1 (in bruce's favor)

[barrysloate]

I'm hardly here to defend Bruce, but didn't he just start an earnest thread here?

Bruce did start an earnest thread, and then with the tiniest bit of provocation went ballistic. I've suggested to him to simply ignore the sarcasm, but he will not. For him it's a war, 24/7.

[Rich Klein]

It may have been a poor effort in my verbiage; but I actually agree with you.
Many of Bruce's posts are ON target and bring up interesting points. And I somewhat agree with what he does, make a statement and see what opinions come out. There are times I used to do the same thing (especially back in my Beckett days) so I "get" what Bruce does

All I was saying is that Bruce tends to be a lightning rod (like all of our recents US presidents) and in this case there is no fault of Bruce at all. He responded accordingly and with good timing.

I think I'm staying in the same hotel as Mr Dorskind in Baltimore and in all actuality would like to meet him again (I met him very briefly 30+ years ago). And this is not a joke, nor a threat -- just a statement of fact

And the other issue is the personal attacks both way -- and I have no answer or comment for that.

Rich

[E93]

I'm hardly here to defend Bruce, but didn't he just start an earnest thread here?

+1

[Rob D.]

I'm hardly here to defend Bruce, but didn't he just start an earnest thread here?

+ 1 gazillion

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is this "+1" thing new?

[FrankWakefield]

So what about the Suggs card, Bruce? Having gotten one now, do you think it's as plentiful as the others, less or more so? And which Fed League Cracker Jacks, if any, do you deem more difficult.

I don't recall where I read or was told that about Suggs. I do know I've been hoping to buy one in about good condition for some time. I've seen a couple of them sell, maybe I'm not realistic about the price.

[calvindog]

Bruce, it would be nice if you answered Frank's question. Nine minutes have passed already. Woops, make that ten.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bruce, it would be nice if you answered Frank's question. Nine minutes have passed already. Woops, make that ten.

+1

[tiger8mush]

I don't know much about the 1915s, but finding the 1914s in EX or better can be tough. Especially when u're on a budget :)

Here are my 1914 CJ federal leaguers - 8 in all. I don't think they are any easier or tougher than the rest of the set, but I haven't exactly kept track either. Nor do I know anything about PSA 8 or better. I don't think I own any PSA 8 or better cards.

Good luck in your quest, Bruce.
Rob
:)

[Jim VB]

3 things...

First, the 1914 cards aren't found rougher because they were available only one at a time in boxes while the 1915 cards were available through the mail... was the 1914 container really a box? True the 1915 cards could be obtained as mentioned on the backs of the 1915 cards, the set for a quarter. But two serious factors about the condition difference, 1914 cards are on what is closer to thick paper than cardstock, the 1915 cards are much thicker / stiffer. And secondly, kids who jumbled them together towards making a set shuffled the cards about, with the 1914 cards going through one extra year of wear and tear. That's why the 1914s are more subject to damage, and are worn more.






1. Lipset's Encyclopedia says "box."

2. Certainly, the difference in paper stock made a big difference.

3. I'm having a hard time buying that much of the difference is due to the fact that one set (1915) is 95 years old but the 1914's are worse because they are 96 years old. I understand what you're saying Frank, but can't believe it's much of a difference.

[Jim VB]

jim, this is so freakin funny that i hope you can take a step back and laugh a little.


Don't worry. I always laugh at Bruce's stuff.



1914 CJ's are so so tough to find unstained (for obvious reasons) randy's set was factory sent and the person who brought it the collecting world hand the orginal envelope it was sent in, the mathewson graded sgc 86 and jackson an sgc 98 (gem mint). a once in a life time acquisition.



Really? I have never heard the thought that the 1914's were available direct from "the factory." If that is true, Then I learned something new today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought Randy's set originated with someone who worked at the factory and acquired the cards that way.

[Jim VB]

I'm hardly here to defend Bruce, but didn't he just start an earnest thread here?


I agree. He started a great thread. All I said was that Frank shouldn't hold out much hope for a two-way exchange of information. And even though Bruce did respond, he never really answered Frank's questioning. Frank asked about Bruce's experience and beliefs about the difficulty of Suggs. Bruce's answer was, basically, "I've got one." He shared neither experience nor belief.

[FrankWakefield]

Look at a stack of T206s, I'm talking about a hundred of them, or so. Looking only at their fronts, sort them by condition, best to the right, most worn to the left. Then turn them all over. The 150 series will be ever so slightly likely to have more wear, especially well rounded corners. You can see that with T206s... which generally started with adults, or very old kids. The candy cards usually started with kids, and kids put cards in pockets and everywhere. How many of us did the clothes pins and spokes thing? I did, with Mantle on one side and Maris on the other.

The E90-1s and E102s are usually found quite worn. Kids had them. Not all, but many. Some kids pasted them into scrapbooks, some of those were soaked out long ago, and are now found in high numbered slabs. Still, lots of those candy cards show quite a bit of wear, kid wear. A kid didn't carry ball cards in pockets for 50 years, just a few, while he was a kid. I'd think the 1914 Cracker Jack cards could have been stacked and carried in a pocket for 2 or 3 years, and the 1915 Cracker Jacks for 1 or 2. I think that because the kids were growing up, and they'd reach an age where they left their cards behind; and, the 1914 cards could mix in well enough with the 1915s, but when 1916 rolled around and there were no longer 'major league' teams in Indianapolis and Kansas City, then those cards were no longer actively collected. As kids, we always focused on the new year, the current year. Cards a year or two old had lost their charm.

You don't have to buy into that, but I still think it's about right.

I am no expert on Cracker Jack packaging. We had boxes when I was a kid, brown cardboard covered with colored paper. The candy was in wax paper inside. Today it's in a plastic/foil bag? I think back in 1914 it was very thick paper / thin card stock, printing on the outside surface and candy against the inside. I had tops and bottoms that were folded then sealed someway, took a bit of determination to tear into it. I don't think the 1914 package was that difficult to tear open. I hold Mr. Lipset in high regard, more so than it seems many here do. I'm not sure it was that much of a box back then. The slogan "A prize in every box" dates to 1912, so maybe it was some sort of box; but not the stout thing I wrestled with as a kid.

And as for Bruce answering any of my questions, it seems to me he dodged them all. He responded that he'd acquired a Suggs card. He hasn't responded about what I asked about it and about other FL Cracker Jacks. He started a thread that was of interest to me, I wish someone else would offer what they think about the FLers. Thank you, Jim, for noticing that Bruce danced around answering.

And I don't know about where those nice 1914 cards came from, but it wasn't the 25 cent mail in offer mentioned on the back of each 1915 card. The 1914 cards came in the, wait for it, boxes. There.

[Yankeefan51]

Frank

Sorry for the delay in responding. We were out to dinner with a client

This is only the third Suggs card we have seen for auction in past three years
Accordingly, we would consider it a tough card (population 9) but not among the top 6 non HOFS.

We are very pleased with the card and the beautiful Baltimore uniform

By the way ,over the last 10 years, we have only held 2 PSA 8 1914 Cracker Jacks- neither was for sale.

See you in Baltimore

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

maybe i am off base , but randy's set were cards that never made it into original packaging. the set was complete and all together. there were actually 5 sgc 98 gem mints and alot of 96 & 92's. of course being 1914 even an sgc 60 is a very tough find. i didnt mean to say it was a 25 cent mail in, i was referring that this set came from the factory direct. it is the only known set in this grade to surface and with such a minute amount of ex/mt - mint singles out there it shows how rare of a find it really is.

the card stock on the 1915 is so flimsy and thin that its hard to imagine those cards (circulated out of the candy box) remaining in high condition just for the corner wear alone. must have been alot of sets sent out for 25 cents in that year.

with the success of gum cards in the 30s, i am surprised cracker jack did not offer another set, how cool would a cracker jack card be with babe ruth, lou gehrig, and joe dimaggio.

[Northviewcats]

It's not quite an 8, but it's still pretty sweet and the nicest prewar card I own.

Best,

Joe

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

By the way ,over the last 10 years, we have only held 2 PSA 8 1914 Cracker Jacks- neither was for sale.

did all 4 hands hold the cards at the same time?

[FrankWakefield]

Thank you, Bruce. Seems you and I think Suggs is slightly tougher than the others. Anyone else have thoughts on Suggs or any of the others?

I know not of Randy or his set. But getting the cards before they were jammed into candy boxes, that would have been the way to get them. The 1915 cards feel pretty flimsy, until you pick up a 1914 card...

And I agree about subsequent CJ issues. Would it not have been grand if CJ issued about 96 or 120 cards each year, on up to WW II ? Sisler on a Cracker Jack, Hornsby, Dean???

[Kawika]

Would it not have been grand if CJ issued about 96 or 120 cards each year, on up to WW II ?
Indeed.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/bbbofsfirstclass/miscellanybaseball/websize/DMcD139.jpg

[calvindog]

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/2909259291/" title="1915 Cracker Jack E145-2 by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3188/2909259291_a317275c59_o.jpg" width="450" height="762" alt="1915 Cracker Jack E145-2" /></a>

[cfc1909]

22618

[cfc1909]

22619

[FrankWakefield]

Nice card, Cdog, about perfect condition. Great pose, Jim. I like the cards that display those Federal League uniforms well.

Anyone know or think anything about some cards being less plentiful than others? I think Suggs is slightly tougher to locate, and Bruce seems to agree with that. Not a peep outa the rest of you, though.

I think that some of the CJ collections were found with the cards jumbled together, some kids cared not whether a card was 1914 or 1915. In later times collectors sorted them by year, but some of the original kid collectors didn't. That might put a bit of a premium on cards numbered 145 and above from the 1915 set. The Standard Catalog shows a price difference for NM and EX cards 145 and up, but no price difference for lesser condition cards.

[cfc1909]

Suggs is available-each time I have seen the card come up for sale or auction it is in higher grade than what I collect. My collection is mostly vg-vg-ex.
The last one I saw on ebay was a 6, if it was raw I probably would have bid.

[baseballart]

Here's one perhaps aided in its past (prior to my purchase) by Mr. Clorox (the uneven edge is simply my bad photo editing)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/16/89874834_77ff6c7f1c_z.jpg

[Exhibitman]

A nice and tough (IMO) Federal League issue is W530. I know Tinker is identified as the manager of the Chicago Federals. There may be others.

As for CJ's, I don't think there are short prints of the FL players, at least to the extent I was looking for them. I was able to pick up a Kauf and a Plank almost immediately after I decided to get them.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Gee Bruce in post 13 you say this:

3. As for Mr. Suggs- we recently obtained his card from a Board Member who responded to one of our most recent America's Toughest Want List posts.

Yet in your a later post you say you obtained the card in an auction.

You wonder why people question you and treat you the way you do.

What business are you in? If I need services in that area I want to be sure I call you first. I think we would all like the opportunity to hire you.

Lee

[plasorsa]

I recently purchased a letter written by Ed Harter of the Indianapolis Federal League. It was written on August 11, 1914 to H.W. Lanigan, editor of The Base Ball World, 1508 W. Dearborn St. Chicago Il.

The letter says
"Dear Sirs, The supply of Base Ball World sent to our Park has been entirely exhausted, in fact the fans fought for them and am glad to advise that the fans didn't leave them lying on the ground but took them home. We had five boys distributing them and the fans curious to know what was being distributed congregated around but their curiousity soon turned to anxiety when they found The Base Ball World and they were nearly all gone. They fairly fought for them. Pleased to state no one was killed in the rush. Federal fans appreciate your dandy paper but no more than we do ourselves. We are certainly for you and appreciate your fairness to our new league. With Kindest Regards"

I am Yours Very Truly,

Ed W. Harter (his actual signature in fountain pen)

Business Manager

[Yankeefan51]

That was our mistake- we obtained Suggs privately from a Board member.

Good catch.

Our business is global consulting for world class corporations and mergers and acquisitions. Because of the nature of our work, we do not have a web site.


Thanks for your inquiry


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

[tbob]

I didn't notice the Suggs card being that much tougher in the set but then again I don't collect the Cracker Jack sets. I sold one on ebay a couple of years ago which was either an SGC 60 or PSA 5 (can't remember which) and it brought a good, not great price.