OT: 1954 Topps uncut sheet

[Peter_Spaeth]

In auction. Beautiful item. I would HATE to think someone will buy these to cut them up and slab them. Wait and see, I guess. I seem to recall past controversy about one of the grading services slabbing sheet-cut 1957 Mantles.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=23476

[Scott L.]

I apologize if this is a dumb question but how can one tell if a card is sheet cut versus cut at what would be the factory in this case? Especially if you got a professional to do it? I've always wondered about this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scott, people who trim cards for a living could probably speak to that.

[calvindog]

Aww, now you're just hating on the hobby again. Can't you give us a positive thread to lead us into National week, Pete?

[Orioles1954]

I had the opportunity to view and write that uncut sheet, it is truly a sight to behold. Was in that DC area collectors hands for the better part of forty years.

[GoldenAge50s]

Very tempting for someone to cut & get a perfect Ben Wade, (top left corner) one of the very toughest cards to find in the whole set in high grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Aww, now you're just hating on the hobby again. Can't you give us a positive thread to lead us into National week, Pete?

Jeff I was looking for some of yours to emulate, but came up empty.:D:D

[botn]

Gosh I wonder who is gonna win the sheet and consign the cards to an auction house near the Midwest?

[calvindog]

Somewhere a small man readies a very sharp pair of scissors...waiting...wanting....

[calvindog]

Jeff I was looking for some of yours to emulate, but came up empty.:D:D

Just admit it: you sure hate cards.

[toppcat]

That may be the same sheet that was pictured in the 3rd Sport Americana/Beckett Price Guide in 1981. Its partner is the one I am trying to find a scan of though. The currently offered sheet sports numbers 126-150 and 176-250. The other half sheet could show 51-125 and 151-175 but it's not been sighted to my knowledge in whole or in part. How Topps distributed the last 200 cards in 1954 is something I would like to find more about.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just admit it: you sure hate cards.

I love cards, it's card doctors I can't stand.

[Jewish-collector]

Scott, people who trim cards for a living could probably speak to that.

Good one, Peter !!!

http://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gif

[Peter_Spaeth]

Alan, I am no expert but I believe the factory cuts are distinctive enough so that a grading service should be able to distinguish factory cut from sheet cut. That said, I think there is a strong possibility this sheet will be purchased by prominent card doctors and the cut cards will find their way into slabs. Draw your own conclusions as to how this might happen. I sure hope I am wrong, but given that everything in the hobby is secret there is no way to know.

[HRBAKER]

It would be interesting to know how many (what %) of the 9/10 collecting crowd would really care whether their 9/10 was a result of a sheet cut or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It would be interesting to know how many (what %) of the 9/10 collecting crowd would really care whether their 9/10 was a result of a sheet cut or not.

Or a lilttle microtrim for that matter.

[Matthew H]

If I were collecting 9's 10's, I'd examine every card I own and learn as much about factory cuts that I could.

People trim cards for a living? Is it really that easy to get PSA/SGC to put a number grade on a trimmed card? This sheet is believed to be unique, if it disappears for good we'll know what happened. I personally would like that sheet hanging on my wall. I really can't imagine why someone would cut it.

[barrysloate]

You know you could cut up that sheet and end up with 100 cards graded Authentic.

[Matt]

You know you could cut up that sheet and end up with 100 cards graded Authentic.

resubmit :)

[botn]

You know you could cut up that sheet and end up with 100 cards graded Authentic.

I highly doubt that outcome. The Pop Report for double digit grades is certain to rise.

[tedzan]

Shown here are 3 of my uncut sheets. I have many more......1933 Goudey, Leaf, many more Bowman's (1948-1954), 1959 Fleer, and
1967-1975 Topps. Some of them are in near mint condition.
But, the last thing I would ever do is have these sheets professionally cut down into individual cards....just to have the cards graded.

I really do not understand this discussion, regarding this 1954 Topps sheet. Trust me, it would be a really stupid decision to cut it up.
Uncut sheets have always been in great demand; and, will usually be worth more than the total value of the individual cards on them.



Rare 1949 BOWMAN sheet with color errors.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/a493bowman.jpg" alt="[linked image]">




1952 BOWMAN (LARGE cards) Football sheet

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/b52football.jpg" alt="[linked image]">




1948 LEAF complete sheet


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/aleafboxers.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



TED Z

[botn]

I really don't understand this discussion, regarding this 1954 Topps sheet. Trust me, it would be a really stupid decision to cut it up. Uncut sheets have
always been in great demand; and, will usually be worth more than the total value of the individual cards on them.

TED Z

Nice sheets you have.

I hate to play gotcha but the 54 sheet that we are discussing would have to sell for many multiples of where it is now to NOT be worth cutting up. Aaron in MINT condition is at least 12K, Williams in MINT condition is at least 7K, Kaline in MINT condition is at least 4K. Commons in the same grade are at least $400 each for the high pop examples and any of the other stars will at least will bring $1K with some bringing much more, in MINT condition. And that says nothing about any of these cards coming back GEM MINT. The winner knows these cards will do best if they can find their way into PSA holders however SGC holders will do just fine.

[bbcard1]

My understanding is that Topps cards, which are "guillotine cut" have a very slight slant to the cut front to back..hand cutting or even professional cutting almost always results in an up and down cut...it would likely be identifiable under close magnification and scrutiny. I would say, however, very likely the deciding factor would be who sent it to the grading company.

That said, sheets are generally very cumbersome to collect and display.

[barrysloate]

Greg- if the winning bidder decides to cut up the sheet and submit the cards for grading, and the graders somehow remember or sense these were the cards from that sheet that just sold, are they still going to give them high numerical grades? Because it seems to me these cards will be recognizable.

[Matt]

Greg- if the winning bidder decides to cut up the sheet and submit the cards for grading, and the graders somehow remember or sense these were the cards from that sheet that just sold, are they still going to give them high numerical grades? Because it seems to me these cards will be recognizable.

I'm curious about that as well - when cards are graded, are they viewed individually, or does the totality of the submission come into play. I could hear an argument both ways.

[barrysloate]

I know Matt. Any single card could just be another high grade one to encapsulate. But if all were submitted at once they would be very recognizable. Do you send in a few at a time over a long period to disguise their origin?

[botn]

Greg- if the winning bidder decides to cut up the sheet and submit the cards for grading, and the graders somehow remember or sense these were the cards from that sheet that just sold, are they still going to give them high numerical grades? Because it seems to me these cards will be recognizable.

The 54s do not have to be submitted all at once. I doubt the grading process has evolved into that degree of sophistication where graders study what is being sold. But I could be wrong. I figure all camps, SGC, PSA and BVG, feel they have the training to catch bad cards regardless of how they were submitted and where they once started. For as little as they charge to grade a card I don't think it is realistic for them to be studying potential submissions.

[tedzan]

Barry Sloate more or less beat me to it. Anyhow......

I would expect (at least SGC) would discern the difference in the edge of a vintage card that was originally Factory-cut, versus a
vintage card that was recently professionally cut.

Therefore, the total value of the number of individually graded cards with an AUTHENTIC grade cut from vintage uncut sheet will NOT
exceed the value of that intact sheet. There are uncut sheet collectors (like myself) that are willing to pay a premium for vintage complete sheets.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

The aging of the paper is the key here. When you cut up a sheet you create fresh edges that have never been exposed to the atmosphere. They will not be toned the same as the fronts and the backs of the cards. The graders should catch this immediately.

The operative word is of course "should.";)

[Peter_Spaeth]

You also create a fresh edge when you trim a card, no?

[T205]

My understanding is that Topps cards, which are "guillotine cut" have a very slight slant to the cut front to back..hand cutting or even professional cutting almost always results in an up and down cut...it would likely be identifiable under close magnification and scrutiny. I would say, however, very likely the deciding factor would be who sent it to the grading company.
That said, sheets are generally very cumbersome to collect and display.

I would have to agree 100% with this statement because when it is all said and done, money is what makes the world go around. If a well known group or seller submits these cards to the grading companies probably some cards will "slip through" and end up in slabs with grades that are 9 and 10s. I am not saying that only the star cards will make it through. A common card in a graded 9 or 10 slab would fetch a pretty penny especially with those that compete in the set registries. I hope that this sheet ends up being framed and put on display rather than a piece of history being cut up and sold. Kinda reminds you of Upper Deck huh?

[botn]

Barry Sloate more or less beat me to it. Anyhow......

I would expect (at least SGC) would discern the difference in the edge of a vintage card that was originally Factory-cut, versus a
vintage card that was recently professionally cut.

Therefore, the total value of the number of individually graded cards with an AUTHENTIC grade cut from vintage uncut sheet will NOT
exceed the value of that intact sheet. There are uncut sheet collectors (like myself) that are willing to pay a premium for vintage complete sheets.


TED Z

Stick to T206s, Ted. This one is a bit out of your scope of expertise. You might want to do more listening rather than lecturing. Routinely trimmed cards make it into holders, both SGC and PSA holders. The guys who are able to trim one edge of a card without detection can trim four edges of a card without detection. Just takes longer and in the case of this sheet their effort will be greatly rewarded. You are showing your inexperience in this arena if you simply assume the card doctor who wins this particular sheet is gonna take a knife to the sheet and place the cards in Card Saver 1s and submit them. Other steps will be taken to mimic the cut and tone the edges though knowing the right people in the hobby could cut out some steps.

[Matthew H]

Does anyone have any proof other than assumption that trimmed cards "routinely" make it into slabs?

[tedzan]

Regarding your........

"Ted. This one is a bit out of your scope of expertise. You might want to do more listening rather than lecturing.
Routinely trimmed cards make it into holders, both SGC and PSA holders. The guys who are able to trim one edge
of a card without detection can trim four edges of a card without detection. Just takes longer and in the case of
this sheet their effort will be greatly rewarded. You are showing your inexperience in this arena if you simply assume
the card doctor who wins this particular sheet is gonna take a knife to the sheet and place the cards in Card Saver
1s and submit them."

I don't know what your problem is ? But, I'm tired of your constant attempts to "bust my chops". I don't know you,
and by your comments, it's obvious that you certainly don't know me. Was Barry Sloate...."a bit out of his expertise"....
when he said the same exact thing that I said ?

Every freakin time you have responded to something I have posted lately on this Net, you have been a "wise-a$$".
Again, I'll repeat....what is your problem ? ?


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Does anyone have any proof other than assumption that trimmed cards "routinely" make it into slabs?


Search for the Markel Report, for starters.

[dstudeba]

Ted, I don't know Greg, but maybe one of the things that got him was this quote from your first post.

I really do not understand this discussion, regarding this 1954 Topps sheet. Trust me, it would be a really stupid decision to cut it up.
Uncut sheets have always been in great demand; and, will usually be worth more than the total value of the individual cards on them.

I know many people here hold you in high regard and therefore your opinion carries weight. With that position comes responsibility and an expectation by others that your opinion is based on factual evidence.

You said that the reason they would all be graded Authentic is that SGC could catch the new cut. However there are pages of threads about trimmed cards getting into holders.

I will let Greg fight his own battles. The real reason I posted was to show an actual example, not my opinion, of a sheet that could be cut up for profit. Here (http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2010/156.html) is a sheet of 1909 Obaks that sold in REA for $5875, or $78 per card. Cut it up and grade it Authentic and now you are at $93 per card. Looking at VCP (http://www.vintagecardprices.com) for recent prices we see these prices for SGC Authentic:

12 11/17/08 Frank Browning $99.99
15 9/16/08 Carroll $82.90
16 10/18/09 Albert Carson $123.75
27 4/2/08 Chick Gandil $1,725.00
30 6/28/07 Jack Graney $108.39
31 1/21/07 Ed Griffin $127.50
48 3/6/09 McCredie $135.00
53 10/18/09 Mundorff $149.63
58 3/6/09 Ornsdorff $122.63
65 3/6/09 Smith $122.63

Only one out of ten cards sold for less than $93. Plus there is the Gandil involved. So if you cut the sheet up, sold the cards for $105 each and the Gandil for $1300, you would gross $9175 or $121 a card. There are shipping and auction fees, plus the hassle factor, but there is a good profit margin.

That said, I think it is a nicer piece intact. However the market says it is better to cut it up even if you can't get it into numbered holders.

[tedzan]

You hav apparently, misconstrued what I said. I have cracked open many a graded card (PSA and SGC) to find that the card in the
plastic was. trimmed. I was not referring to this age-old problem.

I simply was talking about vintage uncut sheets (pre-1960's) that have been professionally (or un-professionally) cut whose cards
in most cases will be detected as trimmed.

I will bring this to your attention, too. What I said was the exact same comment that Barry Sloate made in a post just prior to mine.
But, he wasn't criticized (nor should he be) for it.

What you fail to see (or have knowledge) of is that Greg has been on my butt over the past month (or two) on certain posts of mine
that in no way had any comment regarding him. I don't know this guy and I don't understand what his problem is with me.

Do you understand ?


TED Z

[Matt]

I will bring this to your attention, too. What I said was the exact same comment that Barry Sloate made in a post just prior to mine.
But, he wasn't criticized (nor should he be) for it.


Ted - if you point me to the post of Barry's that you think says the same as you, I might be able to point out the differences that caused the reaction. As is, I'm not sure what post you are referring to.

[dstudeba]

Ted -

Thank you for responding to my post. I took the time to present research and analysis that refuted your point about vintage cut sheets. However you have no comment on it. Instead you reiterate your point about Greg having it in for you.

As for the sheet cut cards getting into holders I believe there are plenty of posts on it as I said previously. Maybe not on this forum since prewar sheets are rare. I am sorry that when I said trimmed I meant sheet cut. Many of these cases are 1960s and 1970s cards simply because there are more uncut sheets from this era. However you say that SGC and PSA will detect these, however there are those of us who aren't so sure. Definitely not sure enought to call it a stupid financial move.

In the end these are opinions since we don't know how good the sheet cutters are and how bad the grading companies are.

The meat of my post was about the financial advantage of cutting up a vintage sheet, getting Authentic grades, and selling it for profit. I posted facts, but it was ignored.

Yes, I understand.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

In spite of some problems with the sheet such as some apparent water damage in the lower left corner, a massive crease through the Jerry Lynch card and some dog-eared corners, this is still an incredible item to own.

If I had the choice of this uncut sheet or all the cards individually as Mint or 9 by any of the third party grading companies, I'd take the sheet for all the reasons discussed about cards earlier in this thread. In my opinion, card doctoring is so prevalent that you don't know what you are getting anymore when you buy graded cards. Even with the flaws on the sheet, it is still an extremely rare item and you know exactly what you are getting.

Congratulations in advance to whoever wins it and unless it goes for something totally outrageous, in my opinion someone will be getting it at a very undervalued price and hopefully that person will keep it intact.

(BTW, I don't own the sheet in case anyone is thinking I'm hyping it for my own gain).

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think both Barry and Ted are wrong, in that a skilled card doctor not only can have the sheet cut but can do stuff to the edges to make them look original. Just my opinion. EDIT ADD There are people who doctor cards for a living, and some are very good at it. That said, I hope a collector buys and preserves the sheet, what a great item.

[barrysloate]

Peter- I agree with you that card doctors are incredibly skilled. But I also feel that if any sheet is hand cut the cards may or may not get a numerical grade.

In the example Dan S. gave regarding the Obak sheet, I was amazed to see that even if every card is graded Authentic the sheet still has a positive break value. I don't think the same is true with a 1954 Topps sheet. Who is going to pay a premium for 54T commons in AUTH holders? In this case somebody needs to be absolutely sure the sheet is cut properly, and of course there is no guarantee of that.

[botn]

Ted,

You hold yourself out as a T206 expert and I do not know enough about them to know if you are. I do know that when you have posted on threads relating to the limited topics I do know something about, your facts have been off yet that has not prevented you from making pronouncements. I have a problem with someone posting an inaccurate opinion as if it is an absolute fact. What Barry wrote was not exactly what you wrote. I think you are way off base on this thread and out of your element. You have a habit of getting on individuals who do not agree with you or threads which you do not agree with. Are others not permitted to have opinions or be more expert than you in any areas?

Barry,

If this sheet is won by a person who is going to cut it up it will not be done with the hopes the cards will get into holders. Speculation will not be a part of this acquisition.

Greg

[tedzan]

In post # 28, I said......

"I would expect (at least SGC) would discern the difference in the edge of a vintage card that was originally Factory-cut, versus a
vintage card that was recently professionally cut."

Barry Sloate followed (post #29) with........

"The aging of the paper is the key here. When you cut up a sheet you create fresh edges that have never been exposed to the atmos-
phere. They will not be toned the same as the fronts and the backs of the cards. The graders should catch this immediately."

If these two statements aren't similar, then you must live in another world, Greg.

Regarding your........

"I do know that when you have posted on threads relating to the limited topics I do know something about, your facts have been off
yet that has not prevented you from making pronouncements. I have a problem with someone posting an inaccurate opinion as if it
is an absolute fact."

Hey guy, name some examples ?
As, I usually avoid posting in threads that you have posted in, because of your attitude and your history on this Net.

Yeh, I have problem, too.....dealing with characters like you. Who, for whatever diabolical reasons wants to act like a wise-ass.

Look, I get along with 99% of the people on this forum; and, they appear to appreciate what I contribute to the discussion and the
reciprocal sharing of information that we enjoy.

I simply posted some scans here (post #21) and stated my opinion regarding the cutting up of vintage (pre-1960) sheets. I did NOT
start this "fire"......
you did, in post #32 with your sarcastic remarks. Telling me what I don't know, etc, etc. Who are you to tell me that I'm "out of my
element", and all your other diatribe.

You don't know a damn thing about me and my 34 years experience in this hobby.


TED Z

[botn]

In post # 28, I said......

"I would expect (at least SGC) would discern the difference in the edge of a vintage card that was originally Factory-cut, versus a
vintage card that was recently professionally cut."

Barry Sloate followed (post #29) with........

"The aging of the paper is the key here. When you cut up a sheet you create fresh edges that have never been exposed to the atmos-
phere. They will not be toned the same as the fronts and the backs of the cards. The graders should catch this immediately."

If these two statements aren't similar, then you must live in another world, Greg.
Wow congrats. You found one statement which you made that was almost similar to what Barry wrote. What about the other statements you made? Remember according to you, everything you wrote was EXACTLY like what Barry wrote.

Regarding your........

"I do know that when you have posted on threads relating to the limited topics I do know something about, your facts have been off
yet that has not prevented you from making pronouncements. I have a problem with someone posting an inaccurate opinion as if it
is an absolute fact."

Hey guy, name some examples ?
As, I usually avoid posting in threads that you have posted in, because of your attitude and your history on this Net. Would be more than happy to via email or by telephone but you have a tendency to vanish when presented with information which refutes your position so I am not sure it would really be worth it.


Look, I get along with 99% of the people on this forum; and, they appear to appreciate what I contribute to the discussion and the
reciprocal sharing of information that we enjoy. Well far be it for me to get in your way but when you are off base and providing misleading information I have a right to say so.

I simply posted some scans here (post #21) and stated my opinion regarding the cutting up of vintage (pre-1960) sheets. I did NOT
start this "fire"......
you did, in post #32 with your sarcastic remarks. Telling me what I don't know, etc, etc. Who are you to tell me that I'm "out of my
element", and all your other diatribe.

You don't know a damn thing about me and my 34 years experience in this hobby.

34 years or not you are wrong about your pronouncements with regards to this sheet.

[Matthew H]

If this sheet is won by a person who is going to cut it up it will not be done with the hopes the cards will get into holders. Speculation will not be a part of this acquisition.

Greg

Greg, are you saying that PSA or SGC will purposefully (numerically) holder sheet cut cards for certain people or did you mean that the doctors are so good that it will be impossible to tell?

I am one of those previously oblivious people that assumed, aside form a few mistakes, these companies were skilled enough to know what they were looking at.

Matt

[Peter_Spaeth]

Everyone should read VBCC #7 re restoration. I don't think it is available online unfortunately. And I imagine the state of the art has, if anything, improved since 1996. The grading services are pretty good, but it's like drug detection, the money and technology is on the other side.

[barrysloate]

Peter- Issue #7 of VCBC is the one that's really hard to find. But the article on card alterations is an important one.

[philliesphan]

surprised at how low the sheet went? About $85- per card [per vig], with a sheet that includes Aaron, Kaline RCs and Williams.

[Jim VB]

surprised at how low the sheet went? About $85- per card [per vig], with a sheet that includes Aaron, Kaline RCs and Williams.

I was surprised. I looked at it, but figured it would go for $18,000 - $20,000, and decided to pass.

[teetwoohsix]

My opinion would be to leave the sheet intact the way it is and not cut them down into individual cards.

But if one were to cut them down, couldn't the owner of the sheet contact the Topps company and pay them to "factory cut" the sheet down into individuals and therefore the cards would, by definition, be "factory cut"- or would they still get an "authentic" grade?

Maybe Topps uses different machinery and couldn't reproduce the same cut?

Clayton

[botn]

VCBC issue #7 is more groundbreaking than anything else. It was really the first time an admitted "card doctor" was interviewed and discussed what he was able to do to cards. 1996 was ages ago. The processes used now are far more difficult to detect, there are more people able to do some or all of them and those people have gotten better at it over time.

If you are not a know it all and want to be more current with what can be done to cards you really need to spend time on Kevin Saucier's site. http://www.alteredcards.com/other.htm

VCBC issue #7 is not the end of the education one can acquire on this matter-- it is merely the jumping off point.

[Jim VB]

My opinion would be to leave the sheet intact the way it is and not cut them down into individual cards.

But if one were to cut them down, couldn't the owner of the sheet contact the Topps company and pay them to "factory cut" the sheet down into individuals and therefore the cards would, by definition, be "factory cut"- or would they still get an "authentic" grade?

Maybe Topps uses different machinery and couldn't reproduce the same cut?

Clayton

I doubt Topps would be interested in this project. Topps did NOT release full sheets of their cards in those days. So, technically, they could claim that any full sheets out there were obtained unlawfully. (Although the statute of limitations probably ran out 50+ years ago.)

As a kid, my brothers and I often received many uncut sheets, but they were courtesy of the man who hauled trash from the Topps plant in Brooklyn. Unfortunately, we cut them all up, and not carefully, I might add.

[Rob D.]

I doubt Topps would be interested in this project. Topps did NOT release full sheets of their cards in those days. So, technically, they could claim that any full sheets out there were obtained unlawfully. (Although the statute of limitations probably ran out 50+ years ago.)

As a kid, my brothers and I often received many uncut sheets, but they were courtesy of the man who hauled trash from the Topps plant in Brooklyn. Unfortunately, we cut them all up, and not carefully, I might add.

Hey, guy, you've got a typo in your post. It's statue of limitations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's in the dictionary right after the Statute of Liberty.

[Matt]

It's statue of limitations.

It's not a statue!

[Rob D.]

That's in the dictionary right after the Statute of Liberty.

It's not a statue!

It's statue of limitations.

Understand?

[dstudeba]

It's statue of limitations.

Understand?

No, sorry I don't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think we are not privy to the in joke.

[Kawika]

http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheCafe.html

[Matt]

This is the line I was quoting:

Jerry: Statute of limitations. It's not a statue.

[Rob D.]

I think we are not privy to the in joke.

You misconstrued what I was saying.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am so lost.....

[Anthony S.]

The Statue of Limitations:

[dstudeba]

I am so lost.....

+1