T206 Red Kleinow (Boston) DRUM defies it's 460-only series status ?

[tedzan]

In recent years, the Red Kleinow (Boston) and Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston) cards have been classified as 460-only series
T206 subjects. But, long-time T206 collectors consider these two cards as being 350/460 series subjects. But, until recently
no 350 series cards of either one have been found.



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abkleinowsmith.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


You will find on the recently posted DRUM list, that Kleinow (Boston) has been confirmed with the DRUM 350 Subjects back.
Check-it out......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125269



Regarding the Smith (Chicago & Boston) card.....to date, no 350 back on this card has surfaced. It remains in the 460-only
series group.

I think a re-classification of this Kleinow card to the 350/460 series of the T206 set is in order.

Your comments ?

TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Well, you must've heard it from a reliable source otherwise I think you would be saying it was an impossible front/back combo :D

Is there a scan available of this Kleinow? I'd love to see it!!
Also- if he was traded to Boston in the begining of 1910, this "could" be a possible front/back combo,right?

Clayton

[tedzan]

Boston acquired Kleinow from the New York Highlanders on May 26th 1910. The DRUM cards were printed in the Summer of 1910.

I don't have a scan, however this is a possible front/back combo since Kleinow (Boston) was actually printed as a 350/460 series
card.


TED Z

[sreader3]

Ted,

1. Have you seen a scan?

2. I am not completely surprised by this. I have always considered Drum an "assorted" back because there are no Drum 150s or 460s--only 350s. Every other back that has a series designation can be found in at least two series. Stated differently, Kleinow (Boston) WOULD HAVE BEEN a Drum 460 except for the fact that American Litho didn't go to the trouble to make Drum 460s (probably due to very small Drum production quantities).

3. Nonetheless, this is a very significant find. Now where's that Smith (Chicago & Boston) Drum?

Scot

[cfc1909]

You are right about every other back having a series designation can be found in at least 2 series.

I am sure Drum 460 was supposed to happen and for some reason it never did. If this were not true, Drum would not have the 350 on the back, it would be large assortment.

Wouldn't that be a find of all finds-a Drum 460...:eek:

[sreader3]

Ted, Jim:

Here is my thesis: Kleinow (Boston) WOULD HAVE BEEN a Drum 460 except for the fact that American Litho didn't go to the trouble to make Drum 460s due very small Drum production quantities. It was a matter of simple economics. American Litho initially intended to make Drums with 350 and 460 backs so they put the "350 subjects" designation on the initial Drum back. But they later aborted the plan to create a Drum 460 back due to miniscule Drum production quantities. After all, why pay someone to create a Drum 460 back if you're only going to ship a few hundred cards with that back? So even though the 460 print run had technically started, they decided to ship Kleinow (and possibly Smith) showing the team updates with the Drum 350 back.

One might then fairly wonder why there is a Broad Leaf 460 back. However, while small relative to Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Sovereign and even American Beauty and Cycle, total Broad Leaf production still dwarfed total Drum production, making the creation of a Broad Leaf 460 back far more economical than a Drum 460 back would have been.

A Drum 460 find would be brilliant indeed, but the discovery of Kleinow (Boston) with Drum 350 provides compelling evidence against the existence of Drum 460.

Your thoughts?

Scot

[E93]

Ted, Jim:



One might then fairly wonder why there is a Broad Leaf 460 back. However, while relatively small, total Broad Leaf production dwarfed Drum production, making the creation of a Broad Leaf 460 back far more economical than a Drum 460 back would have been.

Your thoughts?

Scot

And the BL 460 may have made it clear that it was not worth re-doing it for the smaller brands so they aborted a Drum 460 run. Just a hypothesis.
JimB

[sreader3]

And the BL 460 may have made it clear that it was not worth re-doing it for the smaller brands so they aborted a Drum 460 run. Just a hypothesis.
JimB

Quite possible.

[cfc1909]

I agree and I am pretty positive there will never be a Drum 460 find.

[Abravefan11]

So will we find an AB 350 No Frame Kleinow Boston or New York?

[sreader3]

So will we find an AB 350 No Frame Kleinow Boston or New York?

Tim,

I would say AB 350 No Frame Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) is theoretically possible, but not Kleinow (Boston). I doubt Kleinow (Boston) will ever be found on any 350 back except Drum (assuming Drum can fairly be considered a 350 back) based on the small production hypothesis outlined above.

I think a perhaps more interesting question is whether a true 460-only subject (e.g. Devore, Geyer, Hummel, etc.) might ever surface with a Drum back. I doubt it, but who knows?

Scot

[theuclakid]

I hope I am not wasting anyone's time here, but I have a T206 Kleinow, Boston American with an Old Mill back....probably a common back but just checking.....I really have no idea...the card is in a GAI 5 holder that I know Mike Baker graded...thanks

[tedzan]

I have not seen a scan, but this Kleinow/DRUM input is from a highly reliable source. I have no reason to dispute it.

Frank Smith was traded Aug 9, 1910 (Chicago to Boston). I think this date was beyond the DRUM press run (circa..
mid-Summer 1910); therefore, I don't expect to see Smith with a DRUM back. But, who knows, the Monster may
prove me wrong on this.

Furthermore, Kleinow and Smith are mutually exclusive on certain 460 series backs. Smith exists with an AB 460 and
UZIT backs, while Kleinow exists with BL 460 and Red HINDU backs.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Scot -

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Kleinow Catching card is essentially a 350/460 subject with a team designation change. Until the discovery of the Drum it was believed that is was a change made between the 350 and 460 series printings. So with that said couldn't the AB 350 Boston version be possible or is there a timeline conflict with the printing of the AB's that would mean it would have to be a New York version AB?

[sreader3]

Ted,

Great points about the time lag between the Kleinow and Smith trades and how that plays out in terms of their back types. Makes me less inclined to think that Smith (Chicago and Boston) will surface with Drum.

Scot

[sreader3]

Tim,

My own view is that the Kleinow (Boston) Drum card was made AFTER the 460 print run had technically started; it's just that American Litho didn't bother to update the Drum back to say "Drum 460" due to extremely limited Drum production. All of the other "350 Subjects" backs (e.g. American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal) were updated for the 460 print run to say "460 Subjects." So I would NOT expect Kleinow (Boston) to surface with any "350 Subjects" back other than Drum.

Best,

Scot

[Abravefan11]

Scot - I'm not saying I disagree with you but I will be very interested to see which team designation is on the Kleinow AB 350 when it surfaces.

[sreader3]

Tim,

I personally don't think Kleinow (Boston) is any more likely to surface with AB350 than with BL350, Cyc350, P350, SC350, Sov350, etc. But who knows--the Monster is full of surprises.

Scot

[Abravefan11]

I don't think Kleinow Boston will be found with any of those other backs as well with the exception of a very slim chance the AB 350 could be Boston. If I had to bet I would say it will be New York but like you said the Monster holds many surprises.

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abkleinowsmith.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Time for some review.....

Kleinow (New York) and Smith (Chicago) were originally planned as 350/460 cards (as revealed by their Sovereign apple green backs).
Therefore, the following are true....

(1) Unlike the 190 cards in the 350 series, these two do not exist with AB 350 (frame) backs.

(2) Due to their intervening trades to Boston, Kleinow (May 26, 1910) and Smith (Aug 9, 1910), they will not be found with AB 350 (nf)
backs.

Now,
(3) Smith (Chi & Boston) exists with an AB 460 back and a UZIT back since they were printed in the Spring of 1911.

(4) Kleinow (Boston), having been printed during the BL 460 and Red HINDU press runs (circa..Winter 1910), will never be found with
an American Beauty back.

(5) We know for a fact that Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chi & Boston) are actually 350/460 cards, since (like all the 350/460 series
cards) they do not exist with Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30 backs.



TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

SC 350/460 Factory 42

[Abravefan11]

Ted -

I follow you on the Kleinow 460 no prints information but I am a bit lost on the 350 series no prints.

Is there something in your explanation other than when Kleinow was traded to account for his American Beauty 350 NF no print?

[tedzan]

I'm away for the w/e and do not have my data on the Kleinow cards. I will get back to you when I return.

All I can say for now, is that after 30 years of collecting T206's and having completed 5 sets (no Plank's
or Wagner's), I have never seen any 350 series backs on the Boston version.

The reported DRUM took me by surprise. The fellow who reported this card had it back in the early 1980's.

Regards,
TED Z

[justmike]

I'm away for the w/e and do not have my data on the Kleinow cards. I will get back to you when I return.

All I can say for now, is that after 30 years of collecting T206's and having completed 5 sets (no Plank's
or Wagner's), I have never seen any 350 series backs on the Boston version.

The reported DRUM took me by surprise. The fellow who reported this card had it back in the early 1980's.

Regards,
TED Z

Ted could you please pm me asap about something rather important.I tried to pm you but your inbox is full.

[tedzan]

Justmike

Please email me directly at......

tedzan11@comcast.net

TZ

[Abravefan11]

Ted - Enjoy your weekend and get back to me when you can. Here's my line of thinking:

The Kleinow Catching card is one player image issued during the 350 and 460 series. Sometime during the distribution the team designation was changed from New York to Boston but this didn't change the distribution pattern.

Other players followed this same distribution pattern and I'll use Konetchy (Glove Low) as an example.

Both Klienow Catching (Boston or New York) and Konetchy (Glove Low) have been confirmed with the following backs.

Piedmont 350 (New York)
Sweet Caporal 350 (New York)
Sovereign 350 "Apple Green" (New York)
Polar Bear (New York)
Old Mill (New York & Boston)
Tolstoi (New York & Boston)
EPDG (Boston)
Drum 350 (Boston)
Piedmont 350/460 (Boston)
Sweet Caporal 350/460 (Boston)
Cycle 460 (Boston)
Lenox (Boston)
Red Hindu (Boston)
Broad Leaf 460 (Boston)

Konetchy (Glove Low) is confirmed with an American Beauty 350 No Frame back the only one not confirmed with Kleinow Catching. Based on this I believe an AB 350 NF Kleinow Boston could and should exist.

[tedzan]

Kleinow (Boston) and F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) are Sovereign NO-PRINTS.

Furthermore, I must say that using Konetchy as a baseline for your comparison with Kleinow is not the best example.
Konetchy remained on the same team during this timeline, while Kleinow switched teams.

When I get back, I should be able to find some data that shows that Kleinow (Boston) is virtually impossible to exist
with an AB 350 back.

If I recall correctly, the timeline for the printing of DRUM's and BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU coincided quite closely.
And, this most likely explains why Kleinow exists with a DRUM back. In fact, many of the BL 460/Red HINDU T206's are
also found with the DRUM back.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

If you categorize the New York and Boston Kleinow Catching as two different cards then the comparison to Konetchy wouldn't work. But as I've stated before I don't think they are two different cards, simply one card with a team designation change. When you look at them from this perspective they follow the 350-460 distribution exactly with the exception of a confirmed AB 350 NF with either Boston or New York.

I feel if and when a Kleinow is confirmed with an AB 350 NF back it will more than likely be a Boston example as the AB 350 NF's from this distribution group mirrored the Drum group.

[tedzan]

First....my discovery that Joe Doyle, Kleinow (NY), Rhoades (arm extended) and F. Smith (Chicago) were intended
as additional 350/460 subjects (ala apple green backs in my Sovereign set) is revealing, in that none of these four
subjects exist with either AB 350 Frame or AB 350 No Frame backs.

Now, if you are inclined to suggest that some day these 4 cards will surface with these AB 350 backs....then I can
only reply that it is impossible to prove a negative.

Furthermore, regarding the Kleinow (Boston) card....it appears to me that you are trying to equate a DRUM back to
an AB 350 No Frame back. This does not jive, as DRUM backs are a magnitude greater in scarcity than AB 350 backs.
If we know of one Kleinow/DRUM, then we would have already seen several AB 350 Kleinow's.

The scarcest T206 is the Joe Doyle error card and we have confirmed 8 of them. All the other T206 permutations are
catalogued by now (after Millions of cards that have been sampled). Perhaps, the only exceptions to this are BL 460,
DRUM, and Red HINDU cards.

No, there is no way that Kleinow will show up with an AB 350 back....and, I'm willing to place a bet on that fact.


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted love to see a scan...here's mine.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/kleinow12_1.jpg

Who knows perhaps I will need that Murphy Red Hindu after all...with all these surprises.

[Mikehealer]

Wonka, that is a beauty.

[Abravefan11]

Ted -

This is another situation you and I will have to agree to disagree on for now. I can't say that the Kleinow AB 350 No Frame would be a Boston or New York variation but one should exists with one or the other if the Drum card that started this thread does in fact exist IMO.

The Monster is full of surprises and I believe you would have said the Kleinow Boston Drum was an impossibility a week ago based on your "rules." This find opens up the possibility that the AB 350 NF could be out there with either a New York or Boston team designation. If it doesn't it would be the only back it is a "No Print" in across the distribution path it follows.

Regards,
Tim

** I think it's more likely that I am wrong on this than you Ted. I just need to understand why. I may have found the answer but it's going to take me sometime to determine for sure.

[cfc1909]

first , I really believe that there will be some new undiscovered front/back combos. In most cases we can pretty much predict which ones will appear. This set has rules and we are in the process of figuring them out but there will be rule breakers.

Not long ago everybody thought the apple green Sovereign was just faded ink. Now it has shown us other 350-460 examples we would not have known about.

I know not long ago 3 BL 350s were added to the BL list and a Bush Tolstoi.

Tim you have the Kleinow EPDG listed as Boston-it also exist with New York-I believe this is one of those tough EPDGs-not saying there this is the only one, just tougher than a regular EPDG.

22036

22037

[tedzan]

OK, some are asking for scans, others think it is a re-fronted (or re-backed) card, and others have questioned the existence
of this Kleinow / DRUM card. Besides your responses, I have received several emails. I will tell you this card is not a new find.
This card has been known since the early 1980's. My source for this card is Bill Heitman, who at one time either had it or had
seen it. My experience with Bill is.....that every T206 front / back combo that he has personally confirmed (years ago), have
eventually surfaced. Therefore, if Bill said it exists, that's certainly good enough for me.

Regarding Kleinow (Boston) with any other 350 Subjects back.....I say it is virtually impossible. American Litho's (ALC) timeline
is such that their 350-series press runs were completed by mid-Summer of 1910. Their last batch of 350 series cards were the
AB 350, CYCLE 350 and BROAD LEAF 350 (we have ALC records to this effect). Followed by the DRUM 350 press run late in the
Summer of 1910. Kleinow was acquired by Boston on May 26, 1910. By the time ALC was aware of the team change, they were
printing DRUM backs. They simply changed the caption. No artwork change was necessary since Kleinow's chest protector cov-
ered his uniform's New York logo. So, they printed his Boston card in this DRUM press run.

Another timeline that reinforces the above timeline is the ALC's first printing of their 460 series cards, which according to my re-
search must of occurred in mid-Summer of 1910....and the initial 460 series press runs consisted of the SOVEREIGN brand.
This I believe is true due to the following 2 reasons......

(1) The six super-prints were re-printed with SOVEREIGN 460 backs (these 6 super-prints were the very first 460 series cards).

(2) Kleinow (Boston) and F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) are NO-PRINTS in the SOVEREIGN 460 series.

However, Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago & Boston) were subsequently printed with most of the other T206 brands that
are in the 460 series.

Frank Smith and Billy Purtell were traded from Chicago to Boston on Aug. 9, 1910. Purtell (Chicago) is found with a DRUM back,
which further narrows down the printing date of the DRUM cards to no later than Aug of 1910.


That's it guys....the above timelines pretty well tell the story. Sorry, but I cannot further continue to debate hypotheticals....
namely, Kleinow with an AB 350 back (or any other 350 backs).

It is what it is......so, if you want to continue to discuss Kleinow with a DRUM back, I'm all for continuing that subject.


TED Z

Edited to add Billy Purtell to this mix.