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View Full Version : My thoughts on these stupid grading posts


Kenny Cole
05-20-2010, 11:11 PM
OK. Here's my rant. This post will likely get me flamed, but I just don't care. I thought this forum was about CARDS. However, in order to read about cards, I now get to wade through volumes of crap about how so and so was slighted in the grading arena. Post after post.

I don't care. If you decided to submit a card for grading and it didn't get what you wanted, talk to the graders. If you were stupid enough to re-submit multiple cards to a different grader in hopes of a better grade and suffered disappointment, that's on you. Would you be bitching if you got your card bumped up? Don't think so. Don't waste my time talking about how bad the decision you made turned out to be because I don't care.

I have submitted cards to be graded. I have often not agreed with the grade I received. I don't think I have ever once come on this board and cried about it, because that is not, and should not, be what this board is about. IMO, if someone has a problem with SGC or PSA, take it up with them. Don't waste everyone elses' time with a thread that spawns 40+ responses with regard to an issue that is always subjective and can therefore never be resolved.

IMO, this board is, or at least should be, about cards, not grades. It is, or should be, about sharing knowledge and helping folkis out. It is, or should be, about celebrating the fact that the folks here are weird enough to cherish little pieces of cardboard that have an intrinsic value to a small segment of the population.

Its great if you submit a card and it gets an 8, but I could care less if you thought it should get an 8 and it only got a 6. Let's talk about cards, not grades. That's my thought.

nolemmings
05-20-2010, 11:14 PM
I'm getting a vibe here. Stop making us read tea leaves, and tell us what you really feel. :)

Ease
05-20-2010, 11:15 PM
+1

doug.goodman
05-20-2010, 11:17 PM
I don't give a rat f***...

My thoughts (almost) exactly.
Doug

Thrill-of-the-Hunt
05-20-2010, 11:29 PM
you can't argue with 40+ responses to grading card posts, this is a major part of the hobby. the title in the post stated what the topic was, so you dont have to read it if this subject aggravated you so much.

Wite3
05-20-2010, 11:30 PM
What if the title of the post just aggravates me...

Joshua

Browncow75
05-20-2010, 11:40 PM
Going back to the "whats hurting the vintage hobby" subject, its posts like those where the focus is put purely on the grade a 3rd party gave it, and not the actual card itself, which is the real thing we should worry about. If you are that upset with a TPG, why not crack out all your cards and just enjoy them as they are? Bitching about it sure isnt going to change the grade! We all know the risks we take when we send them in!

Kenny Cole
05-20-2010, 11:45 PM
Yeah, I really can argue with 40+ posts about grading. Perhaps I was unclear to you, but that isn't what I think this forum should be about. I sort of thougt that was clear, but if you remain uncertain about what I think, just let me know. If you can't figure it out, I will do my best to enlighten you. :-)

FUBAR
05-21-2010, 12:03 AM
while i do agree with you about the grading posts, you have every right to vent, but show a little restraint and save the f-bombs for someplace else.

ErikV
05-21-2010, 12:09 AM
Thought I was alone on this, but Kenny and Brandon hit the nail on the head. Glad I'm not the only one who thought this way!!!

ErikV

Kawika
05-21-2010, 12:26 AM
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FUBAR
05-21-2010, 01:23 AM
now that was funny

teetwoohsix
05-21-2010, 01:43 AM
Exergonic :D

barrysloate
05-21-2010, 04:34 AM
Kenny- In one of the threads about PSA I started what I hoped was a lively conversation about how the whole system of grading could be improved. Did you feel that was a waste of time, or a fair discussion? You can answer either way, I won't be offended.

kkkkandp
05-21-2010, 04:56 AM
Since my main focus is on Old Judge cards (where getting a grade above GOOD is a monumental accomplishment 90% of the time), my reply may not translate as well to other issues, but I think it is generally true.

I said this just the other day to someone - because there does tend to be so much criticism of the service they provide, the card grading industry should consider remarketing itself. Perhaps they should establish a set of realistic and practical universal standards, but I'll say later why even that won't help.

First and foremost, these things we collect are picture cards. To not take the picture quality into consideration in the grade is ludicrous. We have all seen Old Judge cards where the image looks as if it was taken in a London fog, but the card has graded EXCELLENT. Sorry, that's just wrong.

The back is pristinely clean. So what? It's blank. Other issues do have writing on the reverse, some more important (statistics, in my opinion) than others. Back and variation collectors will likely disagree, but I buy the card pretty much for the picture alone.

But cards are graded on technicalities. Expanding the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" concept to that grading work is exactly why card grading will continue to be received with derision. Even with universal standards, will every grader see the same corner rounding or the same dirt smudges in the same way?

I would be very satisfied with a service that marketed itself simply as:

(1) Being able to tell with 100% certainty that the card had not been altered in any way;
(2) Providing a holder that enhanced the presentation and protected the card.

After that, I'll decide how perfectly beautiful it is.

barrysloate
05-21-2010, 05:02 AM
I'm with you all the way Kevin, but I doubt it will ever change.:(

thekingofclout
05-21-2010, 05:14 AM
Since my main focus is on Old Judge cards (where getting a grade above GOOD is a monumental accomplishment 90% of the time), my reply may not translate as well to other issues, but I think it is generally true.

I said this just the other day to someone - because there does tend to be so much criticism of the service they provide, the card grading industry should consider remarketing itself. Perhaps they should establish a set of realistic and practical universal standards, but I'll say later why even that won't help.

First and foremost, these things we collect are picture cards. To not take the picture quality into consideration in the grade is ludicrous. We have all seen Old Judge cards where the image looks as if it was taken in a London fog, but the card has graded EXCELLENT. Sorry, that's just wrong.

The back is pristinely clean. So what? It's blank. Other issues do have writing on the reverse, some more important (statistics, in my opinion) than others. Back and variation collectors will likely disagree, but I buy the card pretty much for the picture alone.

But cards are graded on technicalities. Expanding the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" concept to that grading work is exactly why card grading will continue to be received with derision. Even with universal standards, will every grader see the same corner rounding or the same dirt smudges in the same way?

I would be very satisfied with a service that marketed itself simply as:

(1) Being able to tell with 100% certainty that the card had not been altered in any way;
(2) Providing a holder that enhanced the presentation and protected the card.

After that, I'll decide how perfectly beautiful it is.

This is easily one of the best post I have ever read, on this, or any board. Bravo Kevin, bravo.

RichR
05-21-2010, 05:15 AM
Totally agree.

T206Collector
05-21-2010, 05:23 AM
This post is ironically already spawning another dialogue about the importance of grading to the hobby, which I'm pretty sure was not the intent of the original poster.

Moreover, the sentiment exprssed in this post was already expressed by a number of folks in the recent grading threads. Not sure why it deserved its own thread.

Finally, keep in mind that this is a board about shared experiences in the hobby, of which grading is a meaningful part. If you excluded it from the discussion, you'd winnow down some amount of productive and useful conversation.

Now back to your rodent sex.

HRBAKER
05-21-2010, 05:44 AM
I can certainly see from the title of the posts in question how someone could not have known they were about grading and ended up wasting their time (sarcasm).

The board is not the same thing to every poster or reader nor should it be.

I don't give a rat's a** about grading one way or the other but if people think there is merit in discussing it, so be it.

jmk59
05-21-2010, 06:01 AM
Grading is a significant part of the hobby, and threads that productively discuss the idiosyncrasies and possible improvements are relevant to the hobby and the board. But we all know grading is partially subjective. We all know it's imperfect. So I definitely agree 100% with the OP that we really shouldn't have to hear about every individual person's negative experience with these known issues as if it's the biggest surprise and injustice ever.

And somewhere, Joe P may have rose himself up long enough to applaud this thread!

J

forazzurri2axz
05-21-2010, 06:04 AM
First of all, if you don't like the topic of card grading, and one's disappointment with certain results, then you sure as heck spent an awful lot of time reading about it since between the 2 threads, there were almost 300 replies..As someone pointed out, if it pisses you off so much, DON'T READ THEM!!!!

Secondly, not everyone agrees with your definition of what this board is or should be about. Grading is a MAJOR part of the hobby and obviously elicits a lot of different opinions within our baseball card community. If Leon chose to limit the topics to only those that YOU felt were relevant, there would probably be a lot less participants (and lurkers)

If Leon (allow me the liberty please Leon!!) posted a thread and mentioned that 30 of his fairly valuable PSA 2's had been submitted to SGC as a crossover with a request to just meet the SAME grade of SGC30/2, and 15 were crossed--the BEST and "STRONGEST" 2's, and then Leon re-submitted these back to PSA asking for the same PSA 2 grade , and PSA rejects half of their own originally graded PSA 2's including now declaring one trimmed, I doubt you would have even posted, rat f___ or no rat f___.

This had nothing to do with a card getting an 8 or a 6--It had to do with PSA rejecting the BEST of a group they had just graded themselves when asked for the SAME grade they had declared themselves.

cheers to all

bill

Rich Klein
05-21-2010, 06:05 AM
Or Frank:

Hey, there are many positives to grading -- having said that, as we saw, when you lose several thousand dollars (although it was your own mistake) many people need to vent a bit. That's what occured.

And as for Kevin, who wants to know that his cards are authentic without a grade, it is real simple, just request the "A" for every card you submit and don't ask for a number grade.

Regards
Rich

Orioles1954
05-21-2010, 06:20 AM
Clean up your language. Believe it or not, we do have kids on this board. And even if we didn't, your wanton use of profanity makes your point that much less valid.

FrankWakefield
05-21-2010, 06:53 AM
Amen to curtailing the profanity. The Ichiro link should be removed, funny to me though it is; and the other posts edited to be cleaned up a bit.

"These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. "

That's what it says up there... devoted to cards, not slabs. I thought the slab companies had boards for the slab stuff. So I agree with the idea of fewer posts about registries, cross-overs, and particular grading issues. I can see how once in a while a thread about such would be justified. For me, I'd rather see Leon's quarter than see another post about graded cards. I've had some cards graded so they'd sell better, when I'm selling I'm after money... I've cracked out most of the graded cards I've bought, I hate the slabs, they take up lots of storage space. I have a few graded cards I've not cracked out, my favorite is one I've left because the card is mis-identified. Not that that is a rarity among graded cards, but I just like seeing how SGC got it wrong and any collector with part of a brain can see that they did. Joe P is smiling :)

Leon
05-21-2010, 06:56 AM
Clean up your language. Believe it or not, we do have kids on this board. And even if we didn't, your wanton use of profanity makes your point that much less valid.

I have to walk my little girl out to the bus in about one minute, and then go to a meeting, but will post more on this subject later this morning. I can't allow F-bombs and have edited those out. WE do have children that get on the board. I left the one youtube video as you can barely understand what the gentleman said but I was a hair away from deleting it too, and still might. Be careful with the language please.....more later....regards

Kenny Cole
05-21-2010, 06:59 AM
Barry,

I am very conflicted about grading. My core being loathes it and I detest what it has done to the hobby. The myriad of recent posts about how people have been screwed on grades that they evidently thought they were entitled to exemplifies, at least in part, why. That being said, I have finally given in and now use it on some of my cards. I suppose what I should now do is go into a dissertation about every single perceived injustice that I have received at the hands of the people to whom I paid money to impartially grade my cards. Based on some of the responses to this thread, it seems as if that's what this board is now about.

I acknowledge that grading in some form or fashion is here to stay. I don't like it, but that's a fact. Do I think that it can be improved? Certainly, perhaps along the lines that Joann alluded to earlier. However, we aren't there yet. Instead, what we have had recently is thread after thread about how submitter X had some really great cards with really great grades, gambled on getting even better grades, lost the bet, and now wants to blame the grader.

Spare me. If you go to Vegas and put your money on black, you really don't have much room to bitch if the ball lands on red. When you send your cards in to be graded in hopes of making money, you are simply playing a different form of roulette. If you win, great. If you lose, don't whine. I don't care either way. They will be the same piece of cardboard after being graded that they were before, regardless of the number given.

barrysloate
05-21-2010, 07:11 AM
Thanks Kenny for your response. I'm pretty much in your school. I do believe there are good things that have come out of TPG, but also many things I don't like. Nothing bothers me more than those silly and somewhat meaningless numbers, but I respect that many other collectors will disagree with me. I also feel that we have too many posts about bad personal experiences with submissions. Bill has every right to be mad about his experience, likewise Dan. But everyone who resubmits does so at great risk and that should be perfectly clear going in. So I don't know how many more threads we really need on this topic. Yes, I would be angry if it happened to me, but I wouldn't feel compelled to post it here.

kkkkandp
05-21-2010, 07:26 AM
And as for Kevin, who wants to know that his cards are authentic without a grade, it is real simple, just request the "A" for every card you submit and don't ask for a number grade.

Rich:

I'm not sure even that works correctly 100% of the time.

I never cared enough about grading to delve into the specific reasons why cards get the grade they do. I think I have read in several posts on the board (although I do not believe the posts were by anyone from one of the grading services) that cards are often graded as AUTHENTIC simply because they do not meet the minimum published dimensional requirements. If that is the case, you could get an AUTHENTIC grade on a card that actually deserved a numeric one because while it was "short" it was short due to a period cut, not a recent one.

Maybe Brian Dwyer could chime in on that.

Kevin

Jim VB
05-21-2010, 07:40 AM
I've stayed out of these threads, for the most part, because any discussion we have is not likely to have any impact. But this is from the Net54 FAQ & Rules (Emphasis is mine.):



What Can I Post About?
This forum was established to talk about Pre-WWII Baseball cards. Subjects "related" to Pre-WWII baseball cards can be discussed also. Occasional off topic subjects will be permitted by board participants only. Off topic posts are reserved for every day participants only. The participants involvement in the board determines the leniency in frequency of off topic posts. In other words the more you participate the more leniency you will receive in discussing off-topic material. This is still a Pre-WWII baseball card chat board and we will always try keep it's focus. Early baseball memorabilia and photographs are some of the permitted off topic's. Others are permitted too as long as you are a frequent board participant and they are only occasional.

Things you can not post about

Personal information about people including but not limited to: Phone numbers, addresses, email addresses, etc, unless given permission ...Personal emails should not be posted on the board. Bickering between participants on the board is expected. As long as it doesn't get too bad it will be let go. Too much fighting is not good and will be censored. Personal attacks will not be allowed. Name calling will not be allowed (unless it's real funny :)) (Just kidding.) Those exchanges can be taken off line and will be asked to do so. Politics and religion are also not permitted on the board and posts concerning this subject matter will be deleted. Off topic posts are permitted only for regular contributors to the main forum. All cards should be discussed in their appropriate areas on the forum. Memorabilia including photos, autographs, baseball etc.. should go in the memorabilia forum. We also ask that members do not "hijack" the threads of other members as this does a disservice to those interested in that particular subject matter and is especially discourteous to the original author of that thread.

Also, to be absolutely clear, this is not a complaint board about grading, graders or grudges. If your first post on the forum is negative, it will likely be deleted. Trolls are not tolerated and they will be banned.

Bicem
05-21-2010, 07:40 AM
If collectors would just treat grades as more of a guide and/or a simple opinion instead of as the word of god, we'd be much better off in my opinion.

I like grading just to ensure authenticity and to have a cool looking, protective holder. I do not like the huge price discrepancies between grades. Also, the exact same card in a 5 holder is worth more than it is in a 4 holder really seems odd to me, it’s the same card!

I think as collectors become more experienced and knowledgeable about cards and the hobby itself, the importance they place on technical grades decreases. At least that's how it was for me.

4815162342
05-21-2010, 08:24 AM
Clean up your language. Believe it or not, we do have kids on this board. And even if we didn't, your wanton use of profanity makes your point that much less valid.

I have to walk my little girl out to the bus in about one minute, and then go to a meeting, but will post more on this subject later this morning. I can't allow F-bombs and have edited those out. WE do have children that get on the board. I left the one youtube video as you can barely understand what the gentleman said but I was a hair away from deleting it too, and still might. Be careful with the language please.....more later....regards

Thank you gentlemen.

GrayGhost
05-21-2010, 08:37 AM
Honestly, the grading stuff is a bit much. Simply, you send it in for grading, and thats how it comes out. There's always a risk with anything. I'd say do the research on which company you want, and just go with it. if you are going to crack all those out and have the funds to blow on grading w another company, however it comes out is your luck.

Robextend
05-21-2010, 08:51 AM
I think as collectors become more experienced and knowledgeable about cards and the hobby itself, the importance they place on technical grades decreases. At least that's how it was for me.

That is how it is becoming for me as well.

M's_Fan
05-21-2010, 08:59 AM
+1

T206Collector
05-21-2010, 09:05 AM
The exact same card in a 5 holder is worth more than it is in a 4 holder really seems odd to me, it’s the same card!

While I agree with the sentiment, for me the difference between a 4 and a 5 often means there is a hairline crease in the 4. When I was collecting high(ish) grade T206 cards, I drew my line between 4 and 5 for this reason. So, I stayed away from 4s as a general matter.

Leon
05-21-2010, 09:08 AM
While I agree with the sentiment, for me the difference between a 4 and a 5 often means there is a hairline crease in the 4. When I was collecting high(ish) grade T206 cards, I drew my line between 4 and 5 for this reason. So, I stayed away from 4s as a general matter.

I think you missed the point here. It's the EXACT same card, resubmitted....now worth more, or less, because of a number. I sort of agree that doesn't make sense but also understand why it does command more in value. Personally, the # grading game isn't for me but if others like it who am I to spoil their party? Some people can't understand why I do what I do!!

T206Collector
05-21-2010, 09:11 AM
I think you missed the point here. It's the EXACT same card, resubmitted....now worth more, or less, because of a number. I sort of agree that doesn't make sense but also understand why it does command more in value. Personally, the # grading game isn't for me but if others like it who am I to spoil their party? Some people can't understand why I do what I do!!

With all due respect -- the demand will go up for the same card if you first tell people there is a wrinkle in it and then you later tell people there is no wrinkle in it. That is how I often read SGC 50s and SGC 60s with respect to T206 cards.

Bicem
05-21-2010, 09:12 AM
what Leon said.

T206Collector
05-21-2010, 09:13 AM
what Leon said.

What I said, again.

T206Collector
05-21-2010, 09:16 AM
In addition, let's be clear about something. The creases that make an SGC 60 an SGC 50 do not show up in scans on ebay, where a huge amount of cards change hands. So, when you are purchasing 500 T206 cards on ebay over the course of a few years, and you want to be certain they don't have hidden wrinkles, you had better be buying SGC 60s. If you show me a PSA 4/SGC 50 that got bumped up/crossed over to an SGC 60, I will show you a card I am comfortable does not have any wrinkles in it and may now consider purchasing for more money than the PSA 4/SGC 50 was going to cost me, when I wasn't interested in it.

Same card, true, but some different assumptions now go into it with the higher SGC grade.

Here's a perfectly good example. I own this card. If I saw this on ebay, the only way I would know there is a wrinkle in it would be if the dealer told me in the listing (fat chance) or I understood how SGC graded its 50s. This card would be a 60 if it weren't for the "unscannable" wrinkle. If you popped this out and resubmitted it, the only way it gets to be an SGC 60 would be if this wrinkle didn't exist. In other words, the SGC 50 would have been an undergrade and the SGC 60 would be the appropriate grade -- and there would be a higher demand for it as a result.

I bought the Moeller below "in the raw" on ebay in 2000. The seller's listing promised the card had no creases, but it did. The next buyer of this card will now be full aware of its hidden defect -- a spider wrinkle on the left border -- because I had it graded by SGC and they gave it a 50 and not a 60.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Tgw_zm2YBx19YLNgYYGoMw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/RouvQk_nD8I/AAAAAAAAFEc/K9vLtS2ktSo/s800/Moeller%20SGC%2050.JPG" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/pmifsud3d/SGCGradedCards?feat=embedwebsite">SGC Graded Cards</a></td></tr></table>

Rob D.
05-21-2010, 09:25 AM
"If you popped this out and resubmitted it, the only way it gets to be an SGC 60 would be if this wrinkle didn't exist."

No, and you're making a big assumption here. It also could get to be an SGC 60 if the person grading that day missed the wrinkle. Which does happen, at all grading companies, and is also what causes a lot of frustration among collectors.

Bicem
05-21-2010, 09:28 AM
like I said... people treating the grader's quick opinion as the word of God.

Leon
05-21-2010, 09:29 AM
Now that I can type for a few minutes let me address this topic from a moderator/owner perspective. First of all if ANYONE else ran the board I am sure it would be different in some manner. Everyone has their own ideas on how it should go. Here are some of my thoughts.

Kenny Cole (hey Kenny), the original poster, is a good hobby friend and one of my most-liked lawyers on the board. I see about 99% the same way he does on most things. That being said I slightly disagree on the sentiment concerning this thread. Are there possibly too many of these types of threads? Maybe, maybe not. For better or worse there are few bigger topics in the hobby than grading. For that reason the number of threads pertaining to it is substantial.

My philosophy is, and has been from day 1, is to have as hands off of an approach as I can with regards to moderation. Now, I understand this is a private type chatboard and there really is no "freedom of speech" but I still like to think there is, and manage it that way. I do NOT believe it is my right to tell people what to post about, as long as it pertains to something in our hobby. I don't tell people what to say in their posts either. I feel people should be left to hang themselves if they so desire. In my opinion the worst thing I could do is be too strict in the moderating category. Do I like card related threads and talking about our cards and the hobby, more than anything on the board? Sure I do. But to expect it to be soley that way is unrealistic, again, imo. During some calls yesterday it was funny how the other folks knew where I would be on some issues. If nothing else I try to be consistent and I try to help the other mods in keeping that consistency. It is a very, very open forum as long as the rules are kept in mind. I will come down on folks who continually mess up or cause way too much commotion, but those are rare instances. Everyone that has been on the board for very long knows what is allowed and what is not...and there is a LOT of leniency given in most matters, especially to everyday posters. I have 0 tolerance for very much harsh profanity or talking about others' family members. As recently seen no topic is off limits even concerning advertisers. When the banners went up there were a few advertisers that felt they should be protected from criticisms on the board. Before I hung up on their calls they were no longer advertisers. Every banner advertiser now understands that their company, including B and L, is not off limits.

I feel that all of these beliefs ADD to the legitimacy of the board, right or wrong. We are adding around 60-75 new members a month for some reason...and it's not because of my good looks!! I sort of feel like a boxing referee in that I should be seen but not heard. The less moderating I have to do the happier I am and I feel the better the board is. I always appreciate constructive criticism and take it as such. regards

T206Collector
05-21-2010, 09:32 AM
"If you popped this out and resubmitted it, the only way it gets to be an SGC 60 would be if this wrinkle didn't exist."

No, and you're making a big assumption here. It also could get to be an SGC 60 if the person grading that day missed the wrinkle. Which does happen, at all grading companies, and is also what causes a lot of frustration among collectors.

While I have seen plenty of frustrating PSA 5s arrive in my mailbox with spider wrinkles, that doesn't happen to me on SGC 60s. Is it possible? Sure. But never happened to me. Moreover, since I tolerate corner wear on my SGC 60s, a lot of PSA 4s will cross to SGC 60 and that is fine by me. I will pay more for them, once SGC has certified they are wrinkle-free.

When I was putting together my SGC T206 set a few years ago, I developed a theory that the only PSA 5s on ebay were the ones that SGC wouldn't cross over to 60s because of the spider wrinkles. Frankly, what do you think all the SGC collectors do when they get their crossover submissions back from SGC with 1/4 or more of the cards failing as a result of minimum grade requirements? They get dumped on ebay.

barrysloate
05-21-2010, 09:38 AM
Perhaps Kenny was less concerned with discussions of grading in general, which affects all of us as collectors or dealers, and was aiming his criticism towards those with a personal issue that had nothing to do with anybody else other than themselves. Again, not to take away from the frustration of Bill and Dan, but these were unique situations.

Robextend
05-21-2010, 09:38 AM
Leon, I appreciate the fact you have that kind of approach and I agree it is a big part of what makes the board a great place...thank you.

The more I read this thread and similar threads, the more I realize how naive I was when I was upset my T206 common came back as a 30 instead of a 40. The one thing threads like these reinforce with me is that as long as you are happy with the card, who cares what grade it gets...as long as the card is authentic and not altered :)

But of course that is from a pure collector point of view.

M's_Fan
05-21-2010, 09:40 AM
I'd just like to say that many people are taking these grading posts a bit too seriously.

Like it or not, grading has become a part of the hobby. Its sort of like umpiring in baseball. It is subjective, and that actually is in many ways what makes it interesting.

There will always be guys arguing down at the local bar after the game about whether the guy was safe or not, or whether that was a strike or a foul. Should the strike zone be expanded? Is that pitcher's move to first base a balk? Etc. Now I wouldn't barge into this conversation and say, "I don't want to talk about umpiring. I want to talk about baseball!"

This board is like the local watering hole for card geeks, we can hang out here and some like to discuss the umpiring of baseball cards. We are really arguing about the condition of the card, whether we think its VG/EX/NM/M etc, and the overall rules by which cards are judged. Before grading companies gave numeric grades, we had the label system, which many would argue about, and if grading companies all went away, some would still be here having heated conversations about whether a card is VG-EX or EX.

Now I admit my analogy isn't perfect, but my point is just that a card's condition is an aspect of the hobby that some people like to talk about. It isn't a threat to this board or the beginning of the downfall of all society.

Kenny Cole
05-21-2010, 10:03 AM
I agree with Barry. :)

tedzan
05-21-2010, 10:34 AM
DITTO....regarding your's and Barry's comments.


TED Z

tedzan
05-21-2010, 10:34 AM
It is no surprise to many here....if I state how much I hate the Graded card phenomena. In my opinion....from the infamous
Alan Hager days (circa 1990), to the infamous PSA 8 Wagner, to the graded T206 fakes which were "Re-Fronted", to the pre-
sent situation....this Grading phenomena has adversely affected this BB card hobby. How many examples can offer of this ?
I will spare you how many.....as they are too numerous.

Unfortunately, there are many on this forum which have no way of comparing the present with the PPG (pre-professional gra-
ding) days of the 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's. Therefore, they are stuck in the "plastic age" and cannot be truly objective
about negative aspects of this current grading craze. Once you start professionally assigning "numbers" to pieces of cardboard,
that have no inherent $$$$ value, you've opened up a pandora's box of problems, corruption, etc.

But, I must be realistic.....we are all stuck with this Grading crap.....whether we like it or not. And, the only solution we have
was 1st suggested by Barry Sloate in another thread......

'What the numbers really do is keep the graders in business, and keep the resubmissions coming in at a brisk pace. The hobby
would be alive and well without them."

Kevin Cummings 2nd that suggestion in his excellent post (#15) earlier in this thread.


I could say a lot more on this subject, but that will only "tick-off" more Net54er's here. Resulting in no one ever responding to
my future threads here :)

So, I'll leave you with....to each his own.


TED Z

timzcardz
05-21-2010, 11:12 AM
But, I must be realistic.....we are all stuck with this Grading crap.....whether we like it or not. And, the only solution we have
was 1st suggested by Barry Sloate in another thread......

TED Z



HELL NO!


If you love your cards, SET THEM FREE!


That's what I do. :)


And look at Jim Lemon. Just seeing that smile on his face is the only thanks that I need.


http://www.cal-lector.com/TimzCollection/1958Topps/1958Topps2009-09-12-A.jpg

Cat
05-21-2010, 11:12 AM
I generally skip over any of the grading threads (but I tend to skip over any thread about T206/T205s too). I think part of the problem is the grading threads get so many replies, and thus bumped to the top, that folks feel compelled to go back and find out what train-wreck they missed. I like my cards graded but I really don't care what the grade is. If I have to have a magnifying glass to identify that there is a wrinkle then I really don't care about that wrinkle. I think folks get way to technical with this stuff.

Rob D.
05-21-2010, 11:25 AM
Ted,

It's easy to attempt to discredit someone or something by picking and choosing and listing only the negative. You're one of the more valued contributors to this board. You've also posted some comically ridiculous statements -- as have I and probably every other member of this board (except one). Were someone to list only your not-so-great posts in an attempt to discredit you on the whole, it would be pretty easy. Folks who are dead-set against professional grading are adept at listing all of the negatives and none of the positives.

A lot of us were active in the hobby before professional grading came on the scene. It wasn't all candy and nuts. Dealers repeatedly overgraded their cards and undergraded yours. There was fraud then -- specifically card doctoring and trimming -- just like there is now. Do I wish, like I'm sure you do, that there was a "less professional" feel to the hobby now like there was in the 1970s? Absolutely. But I also know that professional grading has done some good, and to try to turn a blind eye toward that fact doesn't help your cause.

Chris Counts
05-21-2010, 11:31 AM
Great post, Kenny. I agree with most of what you say. I've never understood the whole graded card thing. Why should I pay extra for a trimmed card when I can just buy one raw for less money? I must admit, though, I get a guilty pleasure out of busting those darn things open. Curiously, the only card I've ever paid to get graded is a 1940 Play Ball color proof, and even though it's slabbed by SGC, I've had several folks here question its authenticity ...

tedzan
05-21-2010, 12:09 PM
I'll spare you my usual lengthy diatribe here.....you, as others on this Net, take any of us anti-grading dudes' comments
too personal. It doesn't bother me that the majority of the folks here love graded cards....more power to them and you.

But, I am entitled to express my feelings regarding this subject (as others have similarly expressed here). And, they are
simply..all the cards I love and have collected from 1887 Old Judges to 1967 Topps were more affordable back in the PPG
era (see my above post #51). And, collecting these aesthetically appealing pieces of cardboard was more fun back in the
1970's, 1980's and early to mid 1990's.

I don't think I'm being totally unobjective when I say that since the Grading phenomena, these factors have significantly
diminished.

TED Z

T206Collector
05-21-2010, 12:09 PM
The cards I love and have collected from 1887 Old Judges to 1967 Topps were more affordable back in the PPG
era.

Demand has gone up because 3PG + the Internet have made it easier and more comfortable for a lot of people to collect.

tedzan
05-21-2010, 12:19 PM
I can have a discussion with Rob D on this subject.

But, I'll tell you this....your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us anti-graded guys. As, it is typical of a few here
that look down at collector's who talk about, or display ungraded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice or rare the
cards may be).

Here is a guy, folks, that when we once made a T206 trade deal, he demanded that I send him a check for the cost of
grading the cards I sent him.


Regarding this comment of yours........
"Demand has gone up because 3PG + the Internet have made it easier and more comfortable for a lot of people to collect."

You are so freakin wrong....it's laughable. This hobby, during the 1980's and into the 1990's, was at its zenith. Demand for
cards (of all stripes), relative to the activity in those years, has definitely diminished in the past 10 years. Ask anyone here
that recalls any of the Willow Grove Shows ?


TED Z

barrysloate
05-21-2010, 12:36 PM
Ted- to the contrary, I think a fair number of people on this board do not like third party grading. Is it time for yet another poll? Maybe I'll rustle one up.

Orioles1954
05-21-2010, 12:46 PM
I choose to have my cards graded for three reasons: 1.) to protect them from my children who are both toddlers; 2.) if I should unexpectedly pass away, it would be way easier for my wife and 3.) they appear more attractive to me.

James

tbob
05-21-2010, 12:50 PM
I would be very satisfied with a service that marketed itself simply as:

(1) Being able to tell with 100% certainty that the card had not been altered in any way;
(2) Providing a holder that enhanced the presentation and protected the card.

After that, I'll decide how perfectly beautiful it is.

+1

dstudeba
05-21-2010, 12:52 PM
But, I'll tell you this....your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us anti-graded guys. As, it is typical of a few
here that look down at collector's who talk about, or display ungraded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice
or rare those cards may be).
TED Z

This can just as easily be rewritten to :

But, I'll tell you this....your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us graded guys. As, it is typical of a few
here that look down at collector's who talk about, or display graded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice
or rare those cards may be).

Sorry that some of us intruded on your hobby and find that 3rd party grading and the internet assist us in our collecting efforts.

Peter_Spaeth
05-21-2010, 12:57 PM
"I would be very satisfied with a service that marketed itself simply as:

(1) Being able to tell with 100% certainty that the card had not been altered in any way;"

I don't think that is realistic. While obvious alterations are easy to detect, sophisticated ones are not, and my own view is that the grading services don't have the time or the technology to unmask them all. They are not FBI crime labs, and there are people out there who are VERY good at what they do.

kkkkandp
05-21-2010, 01:29 PM
I'm surprised no one jumped on that until now. :)

As I tell the guys at SGC every time I pick up my cards, they sure look pretty in those holders.

rdixon1208
05-21-2010, 01:31 PM
I just started collecting pre-war cards about a year and a half ago. I always thought they were awesome, but couldn't afford them. One of my first purchases was a three card lot off the BST. I thought the SGC holders really made the cards look good, and I was curious to know how they would grade them, so I sent them in. They all came back altered. I could see the alterations after they sent them back, but I didn't notice them online or in hand before that. So I stopped buying raw cards. Since I buy graded cards, I read the threads about grading services to gain knowledge...which is what this forum is about to me.

So for those of you that can spot a fake a mile away and don't need the services of a grading company...I'm happy for you. Your experience does you a service. But I'm not as experienced as you. If there weren't grading companies doing what they do, I wouldn't be able to participate in this hobby.

All that being said, I do get tired of reading about the same subject at times. It's cool though because I have a solution. I just go to the next thread.

HRBAKER
05-21-2010, 01:35 PM
As I stated bf I collect both raw and graded and will continue to. May very well have the raw graded at some point maybe not. I can tell you this, I have a drawer full of several EXMT and NRMT beauties from the glory days of pre-TPG that are trimmed, colored, bleached and so on. Many and I mean many of these came from regular advertisers in the glory days of the SCD, many of whom are still in business.

Fred
05-21-2010, 01:36 PM
Not to change the topic but just try to sell a real D304 Cobb that isn't graded and see how much money you'd lose because it isn't encased in plastic with a number on the label.

I don't mind threads about grading but I do agree that threads that rip third party grading companies because the poster received sub-expected grades is kind of boring. If you send in the cards then don't cry at what you get. Just accept it and move on. You can always bust the cards out and resubmit.

T206Collector
05-21-2010, 01:42 PM
your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us anti-graded guys. As, it is typical of a few here
that look down at collector's who talk about, or display ungraded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice or rare the
cards may be).

I have no attitude, man. Calm it down.

Here is a guy, folks, that when we once made a T206 trade deal, he demanded that I send him a check for the cost of
grading the cards I sent him.

I've never dealt cards with you in my life or, in any event, demand that someone send me a check for the cost of grading cards.


Regarding this comment of yours........
"Demand has gone up because 3PG + the Internet have made it easier and more comfortable for a lot of people to collect."
You are so freakin wrong....it's laughable. This hobby, during the 1980's and into the 1990's, was at its zenith. Demand for
cards (of all stripes), relative to the activity in those years, has definitely diminished in the past 10 years. Ask anyone here
that recalls any of the Willow Grove Shows ?

Prices of cards have gone way up. The reason for that is because demand has gone way up. Simple math, man.

I am trying to be respectful because you obviously have a lot of knowledge to share, but you continue to turn off a lot of posters with your insensitive and rude remarks.

FUBAR
05-21-2010, 01:43 PM
To me, the most important thing a grading company offers me is traceability. I do understand that cards can be broken out and sold raw, but it gives me the added security that should they be stolen, hopefully they could be tracked via their serial number.

I respect Ted's opinion probably more then anyone elses opinion. We differ on this one. I`m not pro grading nor am I anti grading. I can take cards graded or raw, doesn`t matter.

What matters to me is we all collect for the love of collecting and that is all that should really matter.

Guys will always like things different ways, graded or ungraded, big boobs or small ones, fast cars or luxury cars, blonds or brunettes. To each their own.... don`t take things personal if someone disagrees`... life is too short to worry about such trivial issues!

Peter_Spaeth
05-21-2010, 01:43 PM
As I stated bf I collect both raw and graded and will continue to. May very well have the raw graded at some point maybe not. I can tell you this, I have a drawer full of several EXMT and NRMT beauties from the glory days of pre-TPG that are trimmed, colored, bleached and so on. Many and I mean many of these came from regular advertisers in the glory days of the SCD, many of whom are still in business.

I had similar experience buying raw from SCD, EXCEPT for Mike Wheat whose cards were always fine.

Rob D.
05-21-2010, 01:44 PM
I'll spare you my usual lengthy diatribe here.....you, as others on this Net, take any of us anti-grading dudes' comments
too personal. It doesn't bother me that the majority of the folks here love graded cards....more power to them and you.

But, I am entitled to express my feelings regarding this subject (as others have similarly expressed here). And, they are
simply..all the cards I love and have collected from 1887 Old Judges to 1967 Topps were more affordable back in the PPG
era (see my above post #51). And, collecting these aesthetically appealing pieces of cardboard was more fun back in the
1970's, 1980's and early to mid 1990's.

I don't think I'm being totally unobjective when I say that since the Grading phenomena, these factors have significantly
diminished.

TED Z

Ted,

I assure you, I do not take anti-grading comments personally. If third-party grading disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't bother me a bit. Conversely, if it sticks around in its current form for 30 years, it won't bother me a bit. I've never bought a card that's in a slab solely because of how high the number is on the flip.

What I'm saying is when you and others who don't like third-party grading can't concede that the process hasn't done at least some good in the hobby, I think your overall argument loses merit.

You and others often choose to display your anti-grading sentiments as some kind of badge of honor, and that's your right. But you should at least be aware that collectors who prefer ungraded cards take more shots at those who don't share their views than the other way around. How does that help the hobby?

FUBAR
05-21-2010, 01:45 PM
but you continue to turn off a lot of posters with your insensitive and rude remarks.


This is just my opinion, but i have never found Ted to be rude nor insensitive.

Kawika
05-21-2010, 01:47 PM
I have to walk my little girl out to the bus in about one minute, and then go to a meeting, but will post more on this subject later this morning. I can't allow F-bombs and have edited those out. WE do have children that get on the board. I left the one youtube video as you can barely understand what the gentleman said but I was a hair away from deleting it too, and still might. Be careful with the language please.....more later....regards
On account that women and children read this board and in deference to the one or two gentlemen who also participate, the offending Ichiro YouTube video has been removed.

Rob D.
05-21-2010, 01:50 PM
This is just my opinion, but i have never found Ted to be rude nor insensitive.

In all fairness, and this isn't a criticism at all but rather a possible explanation, four months on the board isn't that long.

T206Collector
05-21-2010, 01:56 PM
This is just my opinion, but i have never found Ted to be rude nor insensitive.

Ted is clearly, by far and away, one of the most knowledgeble people on here. He has an incredible amount of valuable information to share, particularly about the set I love -- T206. I would want to do nothing to diminish his contribution to this Board and I always try to remind myself of this whenever he makes over-the-top comments that can be insulting.

But Ted does make such over-the-top comments, and they can easily be construed to be rude or insensitive. In fact, I found his latest comments to me on this thread to be such -- he made up a story about me "demanding" to be paid for the cost of grading cards from him, when I've never even exchanged a single card with the man or otherwise demanded to be paid for the cost of grading the card. And he called my opinion "laughable."

Leon
05-21-2010, 02:13 PM
On account that women and children read this board and in deference to the one or two gentlemen who also participate, the offending Ichiro YouTube video has been removed.

Thanks David. When I think about profanity on the board I truly use my 13 yr old little girl as my reference. I don't like her to be around F bombs and really harsh language but a few minor 4 letter words, sh**, da**, hell etc....aren't that big of a deal. The other day I totally blew it and slipped up and said an F bomb in front of her. She went straight to mom and told her what I said. I am still hearing about it. After that I am trying to curb my F-bomb usage in daily life, even if it is just under my breath. So, I ask all board members, before you post something, think about if it is ok for your, or someone elses, 13yr old to hear. If it is, then go for it...if not, then don't do it. And if you make an error in judgment then I will fix it :). This forum is about PG rated imho.....I try to be respectful of the women and children who might read it, even though they are probably few and far between, I know there are some. regards (and thanks again, David)

chaddurbin
05-21-2010, 02:17 PM
the TPG bus with its dead, battered, beaten horse has been around the block a few times. everyone knows about the game. stop crying in the intances when it doesn't favor you, we don't want to hear about it and don't care.

also selectively nitpicking random examples to bolster your stance whether TPG is good/bad instead of looking at the whole picture is stupid. it's like looking at a small sample size and saying you'd rather have a team of david ecksteins in the playoffs than arods.

Jim VB
05-21-2010, 02:17 PM
When I think about profanity on the board I truly use my 13 yr old little girl as my reference. I don't like her to be around F bombs and really harsh language...

If she goes to school with other, living, breathing, kids, she already hears way more of it than you want to know.

When my son was that age, and I was coaching his baseball team, I would bring my 9 year old daughter to practice. It helped control the mouths of the kids by having a "little girl" sitting on the bench... sometimes.

FUBAR
05-21-2010, 02:40 PM
growing up working in the oilfield, i have trucker mouth a lot of times and don't realize it. The easiest way for me to control it is by typing.


Rob, i agree 4 months isn't that long, but comments made by people are all a matter of perception, if you look for rudeness and insensitivity you will find it. Take them for what they are , opinions, it is nothing personal. If you look at them like that, things will never bother you. The one thing about typing is you cannot see emotion or tone so therefore interpretation becomes more important. Just opinions, that's all.... just like my above statement, just a little net 54 love and an opinion!

dstudeba
05-21-2010, 02:59 PM
And if you make an error in judgment then I will fix it :).

Thanks for the chuckle Leon, I enjoyed this quote.

Kawika
05-21-2010, 03:06 PM
No problem, Leon. But you gotta admit the Ichiro video was pretty funny. The old software automatically asterisked out profanities but the new version does not and a certain amount of vulgarity now pops up here on FiveFour. (This is probably not altogether a good thing because it's a slippery slope down to the Internet Cesspool). I have been guilty of it myself as I am a vulgar and profane kind of guy, and of the philosophy that sometimes nothing says it better than a well chosen curse word. A true story (had it not have happened it would have been apocryphal): One day long ago when I was six or so my brother and I were bouncing around the backseat singing "doodoo poopoo" or some such and my father turned around and ordered "Say 'shit', dammit!!" The rest is history.

Rob D.
05-21-2010, 04:33 PM
"When they pull that needle out, I let the expletives fly!"

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Robextend
05-21-2010, 04:37 PM
HAHA good one Rob. I always felt that Kramer's interaction with Mel Torme was one of the highlights of the whole run.

barrysloate
05-21-2010, 04:50 PM
I think that was one of Mel Torme's last performances before he died. And his voice was still golden.

Jim VB
05-21-2010, 05:31 PM
I think that was one of Mel Torme's last performances before he died. And his voice was still golden.

Golden??? Not velvet???

barrysloate
05-21-2010, 06:04 PM
Velvet indeed.:)

bcornell
05-21-2010, 07:07 PM
A lot of us were active in the hobby before professional grading came on the scene. It wasn't all candy and nuts. Dealers repeatedly overgraded their cards and undergraded yours. There was fraud then -- specifically card doctoring and trimming -- just like there is now.

This gets a huge amen from me. There were no "good old days" in collecting, at least not by the late 1970's, when I started. Dealers were, by and large, not to be trusted. The hobby hasn't devolved due to grading and the Internet, it's gotten much, much better.


Bill

calvindog
05-21-2010, 07:09 PM
Bill -- great avatar.

Touch'EmAll
05-21-2010, 07:29 PM
By the quantity of responses, this topic DOES hit home with many of us - like it or not.

TPG has, for the most part, helped the hobby - lets be real folks.

Crying about grades IS part of the hobby nowadays - again, lets be real.

And partying with the good results is also very much part of the hobby.

I have been on both sides. Cry out loud if you want (to a certain extent), thats ok in my book. And rejoicing in the glory of a nice grade is very satisfying.

Finally, NO WAY would I be shelling out thousands in this hobby if it weren't for PSA & SGC.

mark evans
05-21-2010, 09:32 PM
I think general discussions about TPG are a good thing as it has become a significant element of the hobby. Specific instances of disappointment may be less worthy of threads unless of an unusual nature in my view.

I share Bill C's view that TPG is a positive development. Even with its shortcomings, grading by one of the trusted companies provides a measure of reliability that, with the internet, allows most collectors access to many thousands of cards that they would otherwise not consider buying.

Its shortcomings appear two-fold: missing alterations and subjectivity. As to missing alterations, the companies should of course continue to strive to improve and stand behind their mistakes.

The problem of subjectivity cannot be overcome as it is implicit in the very nature of grading. There is no way the standards can be drawn tightly enough or applied in an identical manner every time (even by the same grader, let alone by all graders). Thus, while companies can take steps to improve consistency, there will always be unjustifiable discrepancies. (Over time, I should think this ambiguity would have the effect of reducing the differences in values among grades.)

Finally, it seems to me that these shortcomings exist to a greater degree in the non-slabbed world. Not that there is anything wrong with raw cards, which comprise the vast majority of my collection. They frequently offer a less costly alternative under certain circumstances; for example, where the buyer knows the seller and/or is not paying a large sum and/or is buying in person. But, adherents to the raw system ought to recognize that TPG serves a valuable function for the hobby.

Rickyy
05-21-2010, 09:40 PM
I just like them slabbed for its appearence and protection...that's all it is for me...and though I can sympathize with the gist of this thread, I don't get frustrated or stressed reading these types of threads...it would be ironic if I came in here and get all upset...because the purpose of being here is to relieve such feelings..

rdixon1208
05-21-2010, 11:47 PM
it would be ironic if I came in here and get all upset...because the purpose of being here is to relieve such feelings..

I like your style Rickyy