VERY VERY disgusted with PSA--you won't believe it!!

[forazzurri2axz]

Well, after several people suggested that I mention what happened recently, I guess Dan Collins' experience with SGC prompted me to share this recent experience with PSA

First of all, I realize that perhaps it's best to crack out a graded card and submit raw instead of asking for a minimum grade as a crossover. However, my limited experience in doing so with PSA has resulted in approximately 1/3 getting the same grade, 1/3 getting a lower grade and close to 1/3 getting rejected as trimmed or altered after being graded previously BY PSA!!!

Additionally, the point of sharing this miserable experience is to point out the horrendous inconsistency (that's also a nice way of saying dishonesty) on their part.

A few months ago 29 T205 cards were submitted in PSA holders to SGC.Almost all of these were Hall of Famers or low pop, most all PSA 4 or 5. Unlike Dan, the minimum of the same grade WAS requested on all but 2 cards, a 4.5(requested a 60/5) and a psa 5 which looked like a 5.5 if not a possible psa 6 (requested a SGC 70).

Almost all of these 29 cards were graded before the half-grade system and a number of them probably could have received 1/2 grade higher if re-submitted to PSA. THE RESULTS--- ONLY HALF of these were given the same grade by SGC---they felt that 1/2 of them did not merit crossing. While I disagreed with these results, the 15 or so that they did cross were by far and away VERY STRONG for their grade ......they also did not give the two cards the higher grade as requested.

To make a long story short, and for reasons too long to go into here, a decision was made to submit the 15 that SGC HAD CROSSED back to PSA. Not only were these the strongest of the 29, not only could several possibly have received a 1/2 grade higher, but all that was asked was the SAME GRADE as a crossover..........for the same cards that had just been in PSA holders a few weeks ago

PSA REJECTED HALF OF THESE 15 CARDS, including claiming that one was trimmed---a tired grader, I doubt it.....someone who had a hassle with their spouse, unlikely!! a new employee ,Bull S___!! Does it reinforce the often "wondered" theory of favoritism to their big clients----damn right!!! Or perhaps it reinforces the theory that they do so to keep people submitting over and over again.........whatever it is, it stinks to high heaven in my book!

And by the way, the grading was ON-SITE at the Sun-Times show,submitted FIRST thing in the morning(I was first in line) and given back 10 hours later as I saw numerous "clients" submit cards in Mid-day and get them back a couple of hours later.
Should I have cracked them?? perhaps...but with this BS going on, who's to say that many of these same psa graded cards wouldn't have come back with lower or trimmed grades. It's one thing to "play the game" and be disappointed when one's raw card doesn't get a higher grade. I don't think it's too much to ask for that they are more consistent, or as some might point out, more HONEST in their business ethics.

[T206Collector]

Don't worry, I'm sure the good folk at PSA will log on here and spend an afternoon responding to each and every one of your concerns.

[HRBAKER]

Of course they're right, they are the same crack graders that can discern (Barry?) the difference all day long btw a 9 and a 10.

[barrysloate]

"discern" is correct.

[teetwoohsix]

You see,PSA rejected half of the 15 cards he submitted to them in SGC holders-even claiming one was trimmed-with no knowledge that they were originally in PSA holders!!! This is something to be pissed about,IMO.

Clayton

[Bridwell]

PSA is inconsistent. At least you can crack them open, and resubmit to PSA. Sometimes the grade goes back up.

I think one of the lessons is: If it's slabbed by SGC or PSA, and it's a high grade, don't mess with it.

Ron

[Pup6913]

You see,PSA rejected half of the 15 cards he submitted to them in SGC holders-even claiming one was trimmed-with no knowledge that they were originally in PSA holders!!! This is something to be pissed about,IMO.

Clayton



Clayton I don't know but I am sure if PSA had done their job right the first time the second would have been much easier.:o

[teetwoohsix]

Great point Andrew :D,,,,,,,,maybe PSA stands for "Please Submit Again"?

Clayton

[calvindog]

Bill, this is a hilarious situation (though I'm sure you're not laughing). If what happened to you does not exemplify this insanity of third party grading, I don't know what does.

[Exhibitman]

If what happened to you does not exemplify this insanity of third party grading, I don't know what does.

Agreed. I don't bother sending in cards I intend to keep any more unless I feel the card would benefit from being protected in a holder. Resale is another matter; in that situation it doesn't really matter whether grading adds value as long as the right buyers believe it does.

[barrysloate]

I think we need to look at third party grading in a different light.

They provide a great service by examining a card for trimming and alterations. Assuming they get it right, that's a great thing. And if you like your cards protected in a holder, they provide a nifty one for sure.

It's the number on the label that needs to be reassessed. When you get a card back that's graded, for example, PSA 5, what that really means is: "it's an Excellent today, but tomorrow it may be an EX-MT, next week it might be a VG-EX, and the week after that it may show signs of trimming. We're sorry, we wish we could be more accurate, but we don't really know." If collectors looked at these grades as merely estimates of a general range of condition, they wouldn't obsess over the half grade bumps, and would rarely if ever resubmit their cards.

With many collectors there is far too much emphasis on the label. The advent of the set registry has been most responsible for this. If anyone cares about my opinion, I say it's time to get back to the roots of the hobby: the card, and not the slab. If you must have cards graded, fine, I'm all for it. Just learn to put it all in perspective.

[pgellis]

My 2 cents.....

Because most cards nowadays are purchased through the internet, then graded card makes you feel a little better in knowing that you are paying for what you are going to get on the other end.

I know that I have purchased a few T206s that were raw and a few things have happened:

1. The card looked good on eBay and ended up being "way" trimmed.

2. The card looked really, really good on eBay and once submitted, was told that it was "Trimmed" by a gradind company.

I wish I could go to only raw with my collection, but because 99% of my collection has been purchased off of the internet, I must rely on grading companies.

[oldjudge]

This just goes to prove again (I forget what the first time was) that Pro is the best grading company. You crack out a "10" and resubmit it and it will come back a "10". That's consistency!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think we need to look at third party grading in a different light.

They provide a great service by examining a card for trimming and alterations. Assuming they get it right, that's a great thing. And if you like your cards protected in a holder, they provide a nifty one for sure.

It's the number on the label that needs to be reassessed. When you get a card back that's graded, for example, PSA 5, what that really means is: "it's an Excellent today, but tomorrow it may be an EX-MT, next week it might be a VG-EX, and the week after that it may show signs of trimming. We're sorry, we wish we could be more accurate, but we don't really know." If collectors looked at these grades as merely estimates of a general range of condition, they wouldn't obsess over the half grade bumps, and would rarely if ever resubmit their cards.

With many collectors there is far too much emphasis on the label. The advent of the set registry has been most responsible for this. If anyone cares about my opinion, I say it's time to get back to the roots of the hobby: the card, and not the slab. If you must have cards graded, fine, I'm all for it. Just learn to put it all in perspective.

Ironically, third party grading got its start as a means to AUTHENTICATE cards amidst a wave of card doctoring. Now, while of course it does a lot of good things, it also (in my opinion) has become the means for card doctors to get very rich.

[Al C.risafulli]

It's the number on the label that needs to be reassessed. When you get a card back that's graded, for example, PSA 5, what that really means is: "it's an Excellent today, but tomorrow it may be an EX-MT, next week it might be a VG-EX, and the week after that it may show signs of trimming. We're sorry, we wish we could be more accurate, but we don't really know."

Barry, you know I love you, but I'm in such disagreement with this statement that I feel compelled to chime in.

To me, the number on the label is an absolutely essential component of this, and one that has made it much, much easier for me to feel comfortable buying cards - even when condition is unimportant to me.

Before third party grading, I needed to trust that the person who was actually selling me the card was going to be honest about its condition. The person who was trying to get as much money as possible for the card was also the person who was going to tell me what condition it was in. And I needed to trust that he wasn't going to be just the tiniest bit liberal about his assessment of the corners, maybe overlook a hairline wrinkle in a tough-to-see place in hopes that I'd miss it too.

I also needed to trust that the seller was going to have a similar set of standards than me when it came to some of the more subjective attributes of a card. Centering, for instance - I've seen people call a card "Mint" when the centering was 90/10. And they weren't being dishonest, they just didn't consider centering to be important.

It's also not as if this was only a concern when I was purchasing cards through the mail - it was a concern when the dealer was standing right in front of me! I remember being at a store called Sports Nostalgia, on Route 17 in Paramus, NJ, and looking at a 1949 Bowman Johnny Vander Meer. The guy behind the counter was trying his damndest to convince me that the card was MINT. Today, we'd grade that card VG-EX at best. I was a 10-year-old kid, and I laughed at the dealer's ridiculous grading, even then.

Third party grading makes this so much more objective. And yes, it creates opportunities for monkeying around, and playing the crack-and-resubmit game, and grade shopping based on which company is tougher on corners, etc. But when that card gets in a slab, all the weird, subjective over and undergrading becomes so much less of an issue.

When I'm buying a raw card, I always have to contend with the possibility that the seller is going to describe the card as EX-MT, and when I get it, it's going to have a pencil mark, or a pinhole, or VG corners. Then I need to deal with the hassle of arguing over grading in hopes of getting a refund - and if I lose the argument, I'm out a bunch of money.

Once there's a number on a flip, the possibility of gross overgrading gets reduced dramatically.

The inconsistency that you refer to as "we don't really know," to me, is simply the result of the infinite number of possible combinations of things that could happen on any given card, and the grader's interpretation of all those things. That's why a good grading company will be happy to review grades you're unhappy with, and tell you why they arrived at their conclusion. It's also why a good grading company will occasionally decide that they got it wrong the first time.

And those people who insist on insulting people who like to collect graded cards are just silly.

-Al

[ullmandds]

Al...I bought my first T cards at hall's nostalgia...I wish stores like that still existed!

[Rob D.]

Barry, you know I love you, but I'm in such disagreement with this statement that I feel compelled to chime in.

To me, the number on the label is an absolutely essential component of this, and one that has made it much, much easier for me to feel comfortable buying cards - even when condition is unimportant to me.

Before third party grading, I needed to trust that the person who was actually selling me the card was going to be honest about its condition. The person who was trying to get as much money as possible for the card was also the person who was going to tell me what condition it was in. And I needed to trust that he wasn't going to be just the tiniest bit liberal about his assessment of the corners, maybe overlook a hairline wrinkle in a tough-to-see place in hopes that I'd miss it too.

I also needed to trust that the seller was going to have a similar set of standards than me when it came to some of the more subjective attributes of a card. Centering, for instance - I've seen people call a card "Mint" when the centering was 90/10. And they weren't being dishonest, they just didn't consider centering to be important.

It's also not as if this was only a concern when I was purchasing cards through the mail - it was a concern when the dealer was standing right in front of me! I remember being at a store called Sports Nostalgia, on Route 17 in Paramus, NJ, and looking at a 1949 Bowman Johnny Vander Meer. The guy behind the counter was trying his damndest to convince me that the card was MINT. Today, we'd grade that card VG-EX at best. I was a 10-year-old kid, and I laughed at the dealer's ridiculous grading, even then.

Third party grading makes this so much more objective. And yes, it creates opportunities for monkeying around, and playing the crack-and-resubmit game, and grade shopping based on which company is tougher on corners, etc. But when that card gets in a slab, all the weird, subjective over and undergrading becomes so much less of an issue.

When I'm buying a raw card, I always have to contend with the possibility that the seller is going to describe the card as EX-MT, and when I get it, it's going to have a pencil mark, or a pinhole, or VG corners. Then I need to deal with the hassle of arguing over grading in hopes of getting a refund - and if I lose the argument, I'm out a bunch of money.

Once there's a number on a flip, the possibility of gross overgrading gets reduced dramatically.

The inconsistency that you refer to as "we don't really know," to me, is simply the result of the infinite number of possible combinations of things that could happen on any given card, and the grader's interpretation of all those things. That's why a good grading company will be happy to review grades you're unhappy with, and tell you why they arrived at their conclusion. It's also why a good grading company will occasionally decide that they got it wrong the first time.

And those people who insist on insulting people who like to collect graded cards are just silly.

-Al

Well stated, Al. Especially your closing sentence.

[Pup6913]

Great point Andrew :D,,,,,,,,maybe PSA stands for "Please Submit Again"?

Clayton

LOL LOL:D:D:D:D:D:D:D I am going to keep that one.

[calvindog]

....blah blah blah And I needed to trust that he wasn't going to be just the tiniest bit liberal blah blah blah

-Al

Al hates liberals. Never thought I'd see the day.

[barrysloate]

Al, here's my take on your assessment: I would agree the numerical grades were extremely important if they really did signify some objective standard. But grading is so subjective that it is silly to pretend that a number represents something specific. The example I like to use is if someone submits a poem to a creative writing class and gets it back with a grade of say 92. What does that mean? How can you give a specific number to a poem? You can discuss its meaning, comment on the imagery, discuss its social implications- but you can't give it a number grade. That might work with a math or chemistry test, but it is meaningless with a poem.

That's why calling a card a 5, or a 6.5 (do we need the half grades, or do the grading companies need it?) signifies little to me. Al, I could tell you I liked you yesterday but I only like you 88% as much today. What does that mean?

Someone just told me a story that he sent a Topps card into PSA that he expected to get a 9. When it came back an 8 he decided to crack it out and resubmit. This time it came back a 7. He got angry, and sent it back again. This time it came back a 6! What does that tell you about the numbers? They hold very little meaning. There are loose standards within the company, and different standards between them.

If you feel that the number on the label helps you make a purchase, that's fine. But understand it doesn't tell you much specific about the card. It just gives you a ballpark idea. Sure, a 7 will always be better than a 3. But there are plenty of 5's that are better than some 5.5's. Grading doesn't let you get any more specific than that.

So I say if you like graded cards, and the number means something to you, let's put it in perspective. Let's just say the number gives you a general idea of what the card may look like, and that's all. Besides, if you resubmitted it there's a pretty good chance you will get a different number anyway.

And I never tell anyone it's wrong to collect slabbed cards. I'm just asking them to look at grading in a little different light. It's unfortunately not as accurate as it pretends to be.

[Al C.risafulli]

Barry, I wasn't referring to you in the last sentence in my post.

I probably have the most ridiculous example of crack-and-resubmit that there is in the hobby. And yes, we've all heard the stories. That's the problem - we don't hear about the 200-card submission where everything was pretty much right on the nose, we hear about the one card that seemed overgraded.

To me, if you tell me that you have a '38 Goudey Jimmy Foxx in SGC 84, I have a pretty good idea of what you have. I still want to see at least a scan of the card before I buy it, but I can be reasonably sure that it's not going to have any back damage or bad corners. That's what I'm looking for - a THIRD PARTY assessment of the card. I don't want YOU to tell me you've got a near mint '38 Foxx; I want someone else - someone who reviews cards all day long - to say it.

My first job was in customer service. I took complaints all day. After working at that company for a year, I really thought it must be the worst company on earth, because everyone complained, all day. It took someone else to explain to me that the company was fine, we had millions of customers, and a tiny fraction complained - but I never took calls from people who were just calling to compliment the service. That wasn't my job.

These boards are similar. Nobody posts scans and says "Hey, I just submitted this card for grading and it's properly graded." All you see is the card with the bad label, the one that's overgraded, the person complaining that they didn't agree with the grading company. It's easy to start to feel like they never get anything right. It's easy to forget that there are literally millions of cards out there in PSA and SGC holders where the card is graded to their published standards.

-Al

[barrysloate]

Well that's something I do agree with- only the complaints get posted, and seldom the good news stories. Let me try to state my position a different way:

I'm going to start my own grading service called BGC (Barry's Grading Company) and I'm going to do things a little differently. Instead of assigning numerical grades, I'm just going to use NR MT, EX, VG-EX, VG, GD, FR, and PR as my grades. My belief is the numbers are not precise, they can be easily changed, so my assessments are really no less accurate than anyone else's. How do you think my company would do?

I can tell you right now: I'd be out of business before I got off the ground. That's because the hobby obsesses over these numbers, even if they are not as accurate as they hope to be. If I come up to the plate ten times and get three hits, I'm batting .300. No matter how many times you review it it will never be .290 and it will never be .310. That's a fact, and batting average is an objective science.

Grading is not. It's way too subjective to pretend that a specific number tells anything more than a ballpark story about what the card really looks like. My descriptive grades probably tell the same story. But the market would reject me from day one.

That's my point. I'm not against having a third party with some level of expertise examine a card and give a professional opinion, I'm just fed up with the silliness of these numbers. One guy has a set that averages 6.52, and the other guy has a 6.48. Can you tell me who has the better set? I wouldn't have a clue. Maybe the guy with the 6.48 really has the better set, and the other guy's is overgraded. Nobody knows for sure, as the numbers are meaningless.

What the numbers really do is keep the graders in business, and keep the resubmissions coming in at a brisk pace. The hobby would be alive and well without them.

[benjulmag]

I agree that third party grading provides a useful service in giving a prospective purchaser more assurance both as to the authenticity of the card and its overall condtiion. The problem is that many collectors put too much stock in what the grading company says. To me a graded card means there is less likelihood the card is altered than if it was raw, and that the card's true condition does not materially differ from the grade on the slab. But there is still always the chance the grading company got it wrong, and that a subsequent resubmission could result in a different outcome. So I guess it's a matter of perception. I choose to look at third party grading as an overall improvement over relying exclusively on the seller's assessment of the condition. But it is and always will be far from perfect and riddled with subjectivity, and any grading company, if presented a card anew, is very apt the second time to give it a different grade. I wonder if the day will come when the market recognizes this and stops putting such disparate values on essentially identically-looking cards but with different grades. And, collectors should understand that in regard to issues of authenticity/alteration, third party grading can never be a complete substitute for the card's provenance.

[Leon]

I wonder if us collectors that collect lower grade, but still presentable cards, stress over the "number" as much as collectors that collect higher grade cards? I can't remember thinking to myself "man, I sure wish this would have gotten a 3, instead of a 2." I like looking at high grade stuff (not so much into paying the price to own it) but with much of the cards I collect it's not an option. When SGC told me this card would get a 20 instead of a 30 my comment was "great, who cares?" I am just darn happy to have a speciman!! And I understand not all cards are like this but still....a 1, 2, 3......4,5,6 etc.....just doesn't matter to me that much. Please don't think I am knocking the "collecting by number" game as I am not. ALL collecting is wonderful. best regards

[jmk59]

The problem with grading is that, while it can be better than what we had before grading, it isn't perfect.

There are posts here every so often about a card that was misgraded by a 3PG. To Al's point, big misses happen so infrequently that some consider it thread-worthy. Can you imagine how many there would be if there were no 3PG's and threads were about "That Lousy ^$#! Dealer Told Me This Was Ex-Mt!!!!" It would be every day or every hour.

Grading generally aligns descriptions and conditions a lot more closely than having individual seller having his own way of making that scale. This is especially important because the internet allows for many, many more inexperienced sellers and buyers to participate in the hobby. From a buyer standpoint, 3PG gets you fairly close in terms of expectations. From a seller standpoint, it eliminates a lot of contention and possibly loss of reputation based on vocal and too-demanding buyers. This is especially important with today's instant broadcast capability by any individual - message boards, blogs, etc. So in that sense it's good to have grading available in the hobby.

But generally aligning expectations is not the same thing as hanging your hat (and wallet) on minute differences of fractional grades. The system is not that accurate. The fact that the hobby attached huge dollars to these small, subjective differences - leading to things like the crack and resubmit game - is what makes the imperfect part of the grading system just scream.

In the end, it should be a matter of using the grading system for what it is good at while not crossing over into the areas of instability. If everyone simply used grading as a commercial assist for card description, it would not be as controversial. But many people (including and maybe especially sellers) use it as a pinpoint tool to stratify significant differences in value, and crossing into that known imperfection of the grading system causes much of the problem.

And the poetry analogy is good but needs a tweak. The comparison as described by Barry only works if the card grading system was based only on "what do you think of it". If this were the case, examples of grades not matching eye appeal - like Wonka's examples - wouldn't exist.

If the poetry grading had some guidelines, it would be more like card grading. Like high grades for great imagery, effective choice of form, use of metaphor, whatever. And the lower grades would be reserved for things like misspellings, incomplete or the kinds of things that college kids come up with after too many beers. :-)!

There would still be some "wobble" among adjacent grades that would have some subjectivity, but the general range of grade would be significantly less subjective than the personal, individual opinion of the grader.

Which is about what we have now for cards!

J


ETA - from the "great minds think alike" category - Barry and I must have been typing at the same time!

[barrysloate]

Leon- no doubt there's greater stressing at the top. That's where the set registry comes into play, and where the numbers tell the whole story.

[lharri3600]

the issue here is not RAW cards. the issue here are cards that have already been "GRADED". this subjective thing is a bunch of junk. i have a folder with scans and i ask how did that card grade this or that. i've submitted cards for cross over, asked for a certain grade, and guess what? nope. the excuse i got is this,"it's hard for graders to look at a card in a case to determine a grade". my question (unanswered by the way) was if that's the case, why offer that service?:confused::mad:



Barry, I wasn't referring to you in the last sentence in my post.

I probably have the most ridiculous example of crack-and-resubmit that there is in the hobby. And yes, we've all heard the stories. That's the problem - we don't hear about the 200-card submission where everything was pretty much right on the nose, we hear about the one card that seemed overgraded.

To me, if you tell me that you have a '38 Goudey Jimmy Foxx in SGC 84, I have a pretty good idea of what you have. I still want to see at least a scan of the card before I buy it, but I can be reasonably sure that it's not going to have any back damage or bad corners. That's what I'm looking for - a THIRD PARTY assessment of the card. I don't want YOU to tell me you've got a near mint '38 Foxx; I want someone else - someone who reviews cards all day long - to say it.

My first job was in customer service. I took complaints all day. After working at that company for a year, I really thought it must be the worst company on earth, because everyone complained, all day. It took someone else to explain to me that the company was fine, we had millions of customers, and a tiny fraction complained - but I never took calls from people who were just calling to compliment the service. That wasn't my job.

These boards are similar. Nobody posts scans and says "Hey, I just submitted this card for grading and it's properly graded." All you see is the card with the bad label, the one that's overgraded, the person complaining that they didn't agree with the grading company. It's easy to start to feel like they never get anything right. It's easy to forget that there are literally millions of cards out there in PSA and SGC holders where the card is graded to their published standards.

-Al

[barrysloate]

Joann- do you think a grading system that used descriptive grades would be any less accurate than one that used numerical ones?

[Exhibitman]

my question (unanswered by the way) was if that's the case, why offer that service?:confused::mad:

MONEY. It is ALL about money. Grading did not start up because of the pervasiveness of card doctors--the first card PSA ever graded was not only doctored, it was it known to be doctored by at least one of the graders who looked at it for PSA--it started up because someone had an idea for making money on the fears of collectors and stoked that fire with a strong advertising campaign aimed at collectors. The half-grade did not arise from collectors clamoring for it--high-end examples of the card in a grade were long term gripes about PSA--it arose when PSA's management decided it could make MONEY on the resubmits. Why else would the rules not downgrade a card, only bump it? Not for accuracy, certainly. But as a marketing tool for the resubmission service what better campaign could you have than to guarantee that for a modest fee the card owner might make out like a bandit or would at worst end up precisely where he was before?

Look, it is all about perceptions. TPG doesn't change the cards themselves, it merely changes the perceptions of the buyers and sellers. It's BS, but the more ridiculous it gets the more the target audience buys into it, and the more they buy into it the more money the TPG service makes. And no matter how stinky the popourri the people who want to believe keep spending. Years ago I wrote an article for VCBC proving that the SMR was nothing more than a tout sheet for the service that simply made up prices on cards PSA had never graded and falsely showed them to be moving up when the PSA-graded cards didn't even exist. The collective response was "yes, but" because everyone who counted (dealers) loved the ability to make money marketing the idea that PSA cards were an investment that handed out great returns. They used the SMR to price cards and sell cards, and the fantasy became real over time as buyers fell for the conceit and deals were made on cards with the SMR's phoney-baloney pricing as an initial baseline. Now, after a decade, PSA can cite real examples of sales and the whole thing becomes a self-perpetuating thing, just like the initial insert card venture fed on itself and became the silly three-figure packs of today.

I'm no purist; I play all the games too. I buy raw cards and submit for high grades, cross over cards, crack and resend cards, and occasionally submit already graded cards for review. It is all about the Benjamins for me. I think the whole thing is stupid but just like stocks it doesn't really matter what I think of the true quality is as long as it can be sold to the next sucker down the line. How else besides TPG could I take a raw card that cost me five bucks and turn it into a $350 product?

[Al C.risafulli]

Barry, I understand your point about the number system and the competition for higher grade point averages and such. But I'm not about to criticize those who choose to collect that way - everyone approaches the hobby in a different way, and for some, that's the way they like to collect. To me, it's no different than those who are willing to buy a tough card at a low price because it's been hacked in half and written on, just to fill a hole in their collection. Not the way I choose to collect, but no better or worse, either.

I do collect one graded set where condition is important to me - 1938 Goudey. I'm very particular about the cards, and I only look at certain grades. I'm really not interested in competing with anyone for the highest GPA, but that's just not my nature - I compete all day long in business, I compete for fun in sports, but not in collecting. It's just not enjoyable for me to collect that way. But in that set, I am very picky, which is why I've been working on it for 5 years and still need 6 easy cards for completion. I've bought cards I needed and re-sold them because I didn't like them - leaving a hole in my set.

But to me, trying to get an entire set complete in 8 is no different than trying to get a complete run of a certain player, or to complete a difficult type set. It's just one more way to collect in a hobby that has plenty of room for everyone. I don't consider it bad or good - it just is.

-Al

[Peter_Spaeth]

"One guy has a set that averages 6.52, and the other guy has a 6.48. Can you tell me who has the better set? I wouldn't have a clue. Maybe the guy with the 6.48 really has the better set, and the other guy's is overgraded. Nobody knows for sure, as the numbers are meaningless."

Actually you are right as a matter of statistics -- an average cannot have any more significant figures than the underlying data. An 8 really just means somewhere between 8.0 and 8.5; and 8.5 just means somewhere between 8.5 and 9.0. So strictly speaking an average out to the hundredths place is a false precision.

[D. Bergin]

I'm no purist; I play all the games too. I buy raw cards and submit for high grades, cross over cards, crack and resend cards, and occasionally submit already graded cards for review. It is all about the Benjamins for me. I think the whole thing is stupid but just like stocks it doesn't really matter what I think of the true quality is as long as it can be sold to the next sucker down the line. How else besides TPG could I take a raw card that cost me five bucks and turn it into a $350 product?


Sometimes I wish I was more on the ball like this. I remember years ago I used to pick up absolutely pristine Joe Louis and Bobby Jones cards from The London Cigarette Card Company for the price of common cards from the same set.

Eventually I'd flip them raw and be happy when I made a few bucks on them.

Had some great runs of Leaf Knockout cards I sold off raw. Red Cross boxers in great condition and some wonderful Old Judge boxers you're aware of that I think I did great on, but wonder how they might have done in slabs.

Just never had the ambition to play the game I guess. I even have a small box full of cards set aside marked "Someday" on them. Meaning someday I'll send them in for grading................someday.

[jmk59]

Joann- do you think a grading system that used descriptive grades would be any less accurate than one that used numerical ones?

I think the problem with the current system is the implied precision that comes from having 10 standard grades and now half grades, along with the fact that computerization and the hobby have attached financial values to each level.

Think about the old price guides. They usually only reported value for maybe three grades - a low, medium and high. Everything else in between was allowed to slide along a scale in between the values and conditions given. The points on the scale would be determined by buyer/seller negotiation. I doubt that the exact positions of condition and value along those continuums (between reported points) would exactly line up with each other every time.

Before 3PG, you would negotiate a price for a VG card based on what the buyer was willing to pay for a VG card and the seller willing to sell it for. The card may not have been exactly VG and the price may not have been exactly going rate for a VG card. The buyer and seller hit something reasonable to both.

The problem with internet and increased remote (not in person) sales was when the card was not close to VG. Example, take the buyer position. He might say "I am willing to pay $X for a VG T206 Mathewson". He negotiates to pay $X for a VG, gets the card and believes it to be a P/F at best (assume for this argument that he is correct). His position would then be "If I had known it was P/F, I would only have been willing to pay $Y, not $X."

Note that there isn't anything in that scenario that says there was some arbitrary independent number that got at exact value. That's probably why it worked fairly well - no one was trying to defend tiny little slivers of financial position based on fractional numeric grades. The whole concept of negotiation and mutual agreement worked fine as long as both parties were in the same ballpark on condition. They didn't have to be exact - just close enough. That's where the 3PG system was and could be very helpful - by making sure there was some reasonable basis for both parties to be "close enough".

Now instead of maybe 6 categories there are 10, and even 20 if you count the half-grades. And they have all been assigned specific values. That's just flat out crazy.

Even reading the grading definitions doesn't help. Cards almost always have some characteristics of two different grades and sometimes more. How can any grading company purport to be able to thread the needle and fit a card neatly into one of 20 available slots? Attaching money - sometimes significant money - on the 1/20 pick being exactly right is asking for trouble.

So to get back to Barry's question, I think that the descriptions could be better if it went back to being fewer of them because they would not have the implied precision. There would be more room for negotiated gray areas between grades. If there were 20 verbal descriptions or even 10, I don't think it would be any better - card grading is simply not that precise.

Finally, scanner technology has gone to the moon and back since 3PG was started. It's too bad that this doesn't help bridge the gap a little bit in terms of not being able to see the card in person. I understand that you might not want to buy a 5-digit card on a scan no matter how good the scanner. But with modern scanners, is there really any reason to be grading $35 commons?

Joann

[tedzan]

I've read thru every post in this thread and I'll cite the classic scenario of the July 8, 1958 Senate Anti-Trust hearings
where Casey Stengel held court for hours with his classic "Stengelese".

After which, Senator Kefauver thanked Casey Stengel. Then Kefauver addressed Mickey Mantle......
" do you have any observations with reference to the applicability of the antitrust laws to baseball ? "

Mickey Mantle responded......" My views are about the same as Casey's "

The majority of the people in the Hearing room broke out in a loud laughter.


Similarly, what ever Barry Sloate has said in his various posts here, I totally agree with. And, ESPECIALLY this one:

'What the numbers really do is keep the graders in business, and keep the resubmissions coming in at a brisk pace.
The hobby would be alive and well without them."

Hey guys, these Grading Company's have duped you....and the sad fact is that you have not realized this.

But, unlike that scenario 52 years ago......nobody is laughing !


T-Rex TED

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry, Ted et al., you make good points, but in a market economy, things that are bad ideas usually fail, and grading is thriving. The simple explanation that we all have been fooled is not, to me in any case, persuasive.

[D. Bergin]

I think the problem with the current system is the implied precision that comes from having 10 standard grades and now half grades, along with the fact that computerization and the hobby have attached financial values to each level.

Think about the old price guides. They usually only reported value for maybe three grades - a low, medium and high. Everything else in between was allowed to slide along a scale in between the values and conditions given. The points on the scale would be determined by buyer/seller negotiation. I doubt that the exact positions of condition and value along those continuums (between reported points) would exactly line up with each other every time.

Before 3PG, you would negotiate a price for a VG card based on what the buyer was willing to pay for a VG card and the seller willing to sell it for. The card may not have been exactly VG and the price may not have been exactly going rate for a VG card. The buyer and seller hit something reasonable to both.

The problem with internet and increased remote (not in person) sales was when the card was not close to VG. Example, take the buyer position. He might say "I am willing to pay $X for a VG T206 Mathewson". He negotiates to pay $X for a VG, gets the card and believes it to be a P/F at best (assume for this argument that he is correct). His position would then be "If I had known it was P/F, I would only have been willing to pay $Y, not $X."

Note that there isn't anything in that scenario that says there was some arbitrary independent number that got at exact value. That's probably why it worked fairly well - no one was trying to defend tiny little slivers of financial position based on fractional numeric grades. The whole concept of negotiation and mutual agreement worked fine as long as both parties were in the same ballpark on condition. They didn't have to be exact - just close enough. That's where the 3PG system was and could be very helpful - by making sure there was some reasonable basis for both parties to be "close enough".

Now instead of maybe 6 categories there are 10, and even 20 if you count the half-grades. And they have all been assigned specific values. That's just flat out crazy.

Even reading the grading definitions doesn't help. Cards almost always have some characteristics of two different grades and sometimes more. How can any grading company purport to be able to thread the needle and fit a card neatly into one of 20 available slots? Attaching money - sometimes significant money - on the 1/20 pick being exactly right is asking for trouble.

So to get back to Barry's question, I think that the descriptions could be better if it went back to being fewer of them because they would not have the implied precision. There would be more room for negotiated gray areas between grades. If there were 20 verbal descriptions or even 10, I don't think it would be any better - card grading is simply not that precise.

Finally, scanner technology has gone to the moon and back since 3PG was started. It's too bad that this doesn't help bridge the gap a little bit in terms of not being able to see the card in person. I understand that you might not want to buy a 5-digit card on a scan no matter how good the scanner. But with modern scanners, is there really any reason to be grading $35 commons?

Joann


Best post in this thread.

Regarding scanners however, I still have yet to find a scanner that picks up those tiny little surface wrinkles that annoy most people, especially when they expect an EX or better condition card.

I applaud sellers that add to the description, something like "light crease or wrinkle visible in raked light not seen on scan", rather then just give a number on a slab.

[tedzan]

For the moment, you are absolutely correct.

But, regarding the macro-economics of this. I'm afraid the future bodes ill. It's not only our country's failing economic
situation; but, it is compounded by the unfortunate fact that there is NO growth in this hobby. Kid's don't collect BB
cards like we did years ago. Therefore, where are the new buyers going to come from 5-10 years from now ?

The greedy BB card company's have priced wax packs out of what used to be a growing market. The Grading industry
has contributed to escalating values in BB cards that will be "unsustainable" (I hate that overused word) with respect
to this deterioating economy.


TED Z

[Al C.risafulli]

I agree. I don't feel duped at all.

In fact, I can honestly say that if it weren't for all the advantages offered by third-party grading and authentication, I would never have purchased two-thirds of the things in my collection.

I like to think of myself as an educated buyer, not someone who's been duped. Ted, we get along really well, but if I hold credence in something you don't, that does not make me duped by the grading company's numbers any more than it makes you duped by the folks that choose to grade by their own arbitrary criteria. It's just two different opinions on an issue that shouldn't create as much animosity as it does among people that don't value the 3PG.

Seriously. I rarely read people who collect graded cards tossing insults at those who don't. Why is it that I see it happen so frequently the other way around? If it's really that important to keep the cards raw, just break 'em out of their holders, stick 'em in your binder and be happy with your collection. Why the need to denigrate those who like to have them graded?

-Al

[barrysloate]

Joann makes a point that I've always maintained, that it is impossible to have so many grades and be able to pinpoint each card to its exact grade every time. Part of why this works is the perception that the graders can do it. If your card comes back 6.5 you assume the grader has put an incredible amount of time and care into ascertaining this precise number. But it isn't because if you resubmit it, the next time it might be a 6 or 7. In that respect collectors have been duped into accepting a level of precision that doesn't actually exist.

Now Peter makes a good point too, and that is grading is thriving. I guess there are a few reasons. First, collectors are extremely concerned about card altering and they want an impartial expert to examine each and every card to determine whether or not it is original as issued. And for me this is the most important service the graders provide. Second, there is something about the numerical system that greatly appeals to collectors. I guess we all like to have some kind of certainty in our lives, especially where a lot of money is involved. But I repeat that it is only a perceived precision. I respect that the graders do have skills and try to get it right every time, but it is simply impossible for the human eye to detect so many minute levels of progression within the grading system. In that respect, the graders have pulled one over on us. They have collectors believing that they are able to take a subjective discipline and make it extremely precise. Kudos to them for pulling this off.

And one final thought: wouldn't collectors like to learn how to grade cards themselves? Once a third party has checked a card for doctoring, is it really that difficult for any experienced collector to learn how to grade? Maybe a newbie doesn't have the confidence level and needs the assistance of an expert. That's fine, and a worthy service. But learning to grade, IMO, is part of the fun and challenge of the hobby. Frankly, after almost thirty years of doing this I think I could do it as well as the pros. But I gave it up a long time ago, because nobody will take my word over what is printed on the slab.

[teetwoohsix]

I'll tell you why I prefer graded cards.When I was still fairly new (still am,in a sense) at collecting T206 cards,I bought a raw Burns T206 off of a guy on ebay.He described it as NM-MT,and provided front and back scans.To me,it looked V/G-E/X,and I won it for a decent price.Sent it to SGC,and it graded a 50,I couldn't have been happier.

Awhile later,same seller put up this Jake Atz T206,raw,with I remember correctly,his own grade of V/G-EX-and only a scan of the front.

I am at fault for not asking to see the back scan up front,but figured I had a good transaction with him before,and the front looked maybe V/G,so I bid and won for I think around the $20.00 range.

I sent an email after I had won about the back,asked if there was any paper loss or back damage.His reply was-no,there's no paper loss,some parts are "a little light".I got the card,and here are the pictures.The first is of the front,second is of the back,and third is how it looks now,after scraping all the crap off of the back.

I know I am at fault for not doing my due dilligence,but some sellers out there are dirty,and buying graded cards saves people from dealing with crap like this.Especially when you are new to the hobby.I love my cards graded-especially by SGC.

[theuclakid]

I echo what Ted and Barry have always said (correct me if I am wrong) that third party grading was only needed for the authenticating of a card to ensure as humanly possible that a card is real/authentic and not tampered with...and nothing more....most collectors and sellers that I have known for these many years could tell the difference between an ex, exmt and nrmt card.....grading is not an exact science and way too subjective...no revelation here...when I bought raw cards exclusively, I was only concerned with the authenticity and that the card was not altered, trimmed etc...I always felt I could determine (within the established hobby standards) an accurate grade for a raw card as well as anyone once the authentication hurdle was satisfied...the established value and negotiated selling price should be the only real question....from day 1, cards should have been encapsulated with a big A for authenticated and nothing more...a lot of these grading nightmares that have occurred to most of us would have gone away....thanks...Bruce Perry

[T206Collector]

I don't feel duped at all.

In fact, I can honestly say that if it weren't for all the advantages offered by third-party grading and authentication, I would never have purchased two-thirds of the things in my collection.


Agreed. Moreover, unless cash is of no concern for you, it would be unbelievably stupid to spend a lot of money on a single raw card without having the protection provided in the current market by 3PG -- unless the price paid was so much less than the graded market for that card in its anticipated condition.

I have 3 times spent more than $5,000 on a single card. There is no chance I'm doing that unless SGC or PSA was holding that card first.

Having said this, I am the proud owner of 200+ raw T206 cards that I currently have no plan to have graded. Not one of them cost me over $25 however.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I hear what Bruce is saying, but from what I have seen the overwhelming majority of cards (assuming they are not altered, see below) are graded right, or close enough to right, by PSA and SGC. And I think they perform a valuable service in picking up little wrinkles, paper loss etc. that I might miss particularly from a scan. For this reason when buying remotely I would almost never buy a raw card.

My bigger concern is and has been that some altered cards do get through the process, by anyone's definition of altered.

[T206Collector]

Third party grading was only needed for the authenticating of a card to ensure as humanly possible that a card is real/authentic and not tampered with...and nothing more....most collectors and sellers that I have known for these many years could tell the difference between an ex, exmt and nrmt card.

Just not true.

My buddy Ed and I traveled to the Pier 92 Show in NYC in 1989. We were teenagers and had saved up all our money for the show. He spent $250 on a NrMt Jimmy Foxx 1933 Goudey card. In the car ride home, while looking at the card over and over again for an hour or so, we both noticed a hairlines crease on the back that neither of us had seen at the show at the point of purchase. Today, that card would be an SGC 50 and Ed would not be out his hard earned money.

Grading protects you not only the authenticity but also from hidden flaws in a card. It is an invaluable resource. And one that makes the hobby better because it encourages entry into the market and the proliferation of trades and sales. Newbies feel more comfortable coming and staying because they are protected by the same thing the owner of the greatest T206 Wagners are protected by -- PSA or SGC.

To say that PSA and/or SGC are leading to the demise of the hobby misses the fact that they saved it from itself and ushered it into the internet age.

[GasHouseGang]

Reading this thread brings out all the things I like and dislike about grading. To be honest, when it all started I never thought it would work. "I don't need someone to tell ME what grade my card is." But I have to admit, my eyesight isn't as good as it used to be, and if I'm buying off of ebay it gives me that level of comfort. But I was wondering about grading some 1930's cards I have for future selling. Does it pay off? It seems like people are such gamblers on ebay, that often a raw card will sell for more than a graded example because folks hope it will come in with a high grade. Thoughts?

[Robextend]

I think buying raw off ebay is a gamble, but there are different levels of gamble.

If I am looking to acquire low grade inexpensive cards then there is really not much of a gamble. However the higher the grade I want and the more money I spend, the more risk I am taking. For this reason I pretty much gave up on buying raw 1933 & 1934 Goudey's on ebay...much rather buy graded or use the B/S/T here.

[hunterdutchess]

Is SCG paying people for these post? The "I am disgusted with SCG" post pretty much talks them up saying that there cards are graded better than PSA. Now there is this dogging PSA that they grade trimmed cards and other problems they have with there cards. Seems fishy to me when there is a advertisment for SCG right over the top of this thread.

[barrysloate]

I think we can all hopefully agree that third party grading does many good things, but that many things about it could be a lot better. How about if everything we utilize with grading were in place, but instead of using numerical grades which signify very little, we had adjectival grades.

How about getting a card in a slab that reads "VG, light creasing", or "EX, slt o/c." Frankly that would be more useful to most collectors than a number. A 3 can mean pretty much anything, but a very brief description might be more useful.

I'm in no way advocating the end of professional grading; I'm just suggesting that those numbers create more problems than they solve. They exist solely to keep the grading companies in business.

Okay, I'll await the fallout over this idea.:(

[Rob D.]

Is SCG paying people for these post? The "I am disgusted with SCG" post pretty much talks them up saying that there cards are graded better than PSA. Now there is this dogging PSA that they grade trimmed cards and other problems they have with there cards. Seems fishy to me when there is a advertisment for SCG right over the top of this thread.

Chris,

The love that many board members have for SGC runs deep and true, so don't be surprised. I often wonder whether SGC employees harbor fears of being stalked by over-the-top fans.

[4815162342]

I think we can all hopefully agree that third party grading does many good things, but that many things about it could be a lot better. How about if everything we utilize with grading were in place, but instead of using numerical grades which signify very little, we had adjectival grades.

How about getting a card in a slab that reads "VG, light creasing", or "EX, slt o/c." Frankly that would be more useful to most collectors than a number. A 3 can mean pretty much anything, but a very brief description might be more useful.

I'm in no way advocating the end of professional grading; I'm just suggesting that those numbers create more problems than they solve. They exist solely to keep the grading companies in business.

Okay, I'll await the fallout over this idea.:(

I like this idea. It would be an expansion of what Beckett is already doing.

[calvindog]

Chris,

The love that many board members have for SGC runs deep and true, so don't be surprised. I often wonder whether SGC employees harbor fears of being stalked by over-the-top fans.

Not me! I effin' hate SGC. (I mean publicly. Via private emails I effin' love them. Or vice versa)

[theuclakid]

I like the idea very much of an encapsulated card saying ex or vg or whatever and a very short description summarizing the reason for the grade....such as creasing, moderate corner wear, bad o/c problem, staining....etc....it makes sense and take out some of the guesswork of the reason for the grade...a lot of the these flaws cannot be seen in a scan....as I said before, authentication is paramount for our protection but the numerical value is much less needed because it so subjective a lot of the time...as Barry said, a short description stating the reason for the grade would be more helpful......too many people just buy the number....thanks...Bruce Perry

[Leon]

Is SCG paying people for these post? The "I am disgusted with SCG" post pretty much talks them up saying that there cards are graded better than PSA. Now there is this dogging PSA that they grade trimmed cards and other problems they have with there cards. Seems fishy to me when there is a advertisment for SCG right over the top of this thread.

Don't you think that if there were any protection on this board, for it's advertisers, that the thread wouldn't still be there? Try putting this on the CU boards- "My disgust with PSA grading" and see how long it lasts. As a matter of fact I had an hour long conversation about that very thread and subject TODAY. As of this moment the title of that thread has been changed as the original poster felt it was fine to amend it and he was just really upset when he posted. Had he wanted to leave the title the way it was I was backing him up on it and it would have stayed the way it was. I told him so too. You can say what you want to on this board but you are legally liable for what you say, just remember that. And there was no threat whatsoever (that I am aware of) of any legalities with that thread or the posts in it. There are a ton of new folks on this board and I want everyone to understand you can say anything you want to, including anything about an advertiser, per the forum rules, which are quite open. regards

[T206Collector]

Is SCG paying people for these post? The "I am disgusted with SCG" post pretty much talks them up saying that there cards are graded better than PSA. Now there is this dogging PSA that they grade trimmed cards and other problems they have with there cards. Seems fishy to me when there is a advertisment for SCG right over the top of this thread.

First of all, it's SGC (but I agree that has always confused me, too, i.e., isn't it Sports Card Guarantee afterall?)

Second of all, yes SGC is paying me for my posts. They pay me in consistent grading, excellent customer service and pretty black plastic inserts that make my cards really "pop" in scans.

If PSA "paid me" in the same currency, they would also get my support.

[Jim VB]

First of all, it's SGC (but I agree that has always confused me, too, i.e., isn't it Sports Card Guarantee afterall?)





Sportscard is one word (at least in their world.) SGC = Sportscard Guarantee Corporation.

[hunterdutchess]

Sorry (I ment SGC, eventhough it says Sports Card Guaranty on the back), I like SGC and was not trying to step on anyone's toes. The only problem I have ever had with them is that they chargerd me full grading price for a trimmed 34 Gehrig and a trimmed 48 Leaf Williams. I wrote the trimmed value in the form and they called me and said that they had to charege me a higher price due to there markwt value for the grading (they both looked mint to the naked eye). I think it was a extra $40 bucks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not me! I effin' hate SGC. (I mean publicly. Via private emails I effin' love them. Or vice versa)

Both and neither, sometimes maybe yes and no.

[T206Collector]

I ment SGC, eventhough it says Sports Card Guaranty on the back.

I agree it is totally confusing.

[Pup6913]

Sorry (I ment SGC, eventhough it says Sports Card Guaranty on the back), I like SGC and was not trying to step on anyone's toes. The only problem I have ever had with them is that they chargerd me full grading price for a trimmed 34 Gehrig and a trimmed 48 Leaf Williams. I wrote the trimmed value in the form and they called me and said that they had to charege me a higher price due to there markwt value for the grading (they both looked mint to the naked eye). I think it was a extra $40 bucks.

Chris when did this happen. I have sent in cards from $1- $12000 to SGC and even though they are worth that I only insure for what I paid for them. $400 paid - $1200 sellable value. I take that risk on myself but SGC has never forced me to pay more ever, nor have they asked.

Has this happened to anyone else:confused:

[rp12367]

So I'm still not 100% sure which is the better of the two. PSA or SGC I have several cards graded by both, mostlly T206's. It seems to me that PSA lets alot of stuff slip through and SGC is strict,but I'm sure they both have there moments.

[sportscardtheory]

This is why I buy already-graded cards and rarely submit my own. Let others go through the hassles.

[hunterdutchess]

Chris when did this happen. I have sent in cards from $1- $12000 to SGC and even though they are worth that I only insure for what I paid for them. $400 paid - $1200 sellable value. I take that risk on myself but SGC has never forced me to pay more ever, nor have they asked.

Has this happened to anyone else:confused:

Sorry for the delay! It was last summer. I ended up selling the cards for a little profit to make up for the $40 bucks but I still think I got screwed.