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View Full Version : T206 Wagner proof strip now in Philly...


brass_rat
05-18-2010, 11:47 PM
Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but the T206 Wagner proof strip is now available for viewing at Citizens Bank Park in Philly...

It appears that it will be auctioned off at the FanFest this summer.

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20100517_God_bless_Postal_Service.html#axzz0oLpvXT PH

Have a good one,
Steve

FUBAR
05-19-2010, 12:07 AM
hopefully there will be some coverage of the auction.... i've never heard of this proof strip but would love to see it and watch the auction action

irishdenny
05-19-2010, 12:19 AM
i wondered if one of the card doctors performed their work on this Wagner(in secret ofcourse, Like the PSA 8 :) and SGC graded it a 9, what the outcome would look like?

i saw this strip last time around, still can't believe it only sold in $200,000 range?

Yes, at this time in auction market, i can't wait to see the outcome!

teetwoohsix
05-19-2010, 10:03 AM
Even though the strip isn't in the best shape,it is a true one of a kind.Imagine that in your collection!!!:cool:

Clayton

usernamealreadytaken
05-19-2010, 10:09 AM
Is the backs(s) blank on the test strip?

teetwoohsix
05-19-2010, 10:13 AM
I've never seen the back of it,but I'm almost 100% sure it's blank.

Clayton

Uriarte69
05-19-2010, 10:18 AM
I'll be there for the phestival on Monday. Guess I'll bring a couple hundred grand extra with me.

judsonhamlin
05-19-2010, 10:48 AM
Has anyone seen an off-center version of either of the surrounding cards that has a sliver of Wagner (or a replacement card) at the edge?

fkw
05-19-2010, 10:50 AM
http://centuryoldcards.com/images/wagnerstrip.jpg

gnaz01
05-19-2010, 10:58 AM
Rumor has it that Wagner used to carry this around in his back pocket. Don't know how true that is. But I have known about this "card" for at least 25 years now.

E93
05-19-2010, 11:01 AM
Rumor has it that Wagner used to carry this around in his back pocket. Don't know how true that is. But I have known about this "card" for at least 25 years now.

I don't know about that, but it was found in the attic of a home formerly owned by Wagner. It was probably given to him to try to encourage him to sign on to the project.
JimB

Jay Wolt
05-19-2010, 11:16 AM
I remember seeing an ad for this in SCD about 15 years ago and the seller was asking a million for it.
Anyone remember who the seller was?

barrysloate
05-19-2010, 11:20 AM
Was it Leland's?

drc
05-19-2010, 11:33 AM
I believe Solomon Cramer auctioned it a number of years back.

tedzan
05-19-2010, 11:51 AM
these proof cards look to me as having been pasted together on a horizontal strip. The reasons for my skepticism are as follows......

(1) The Wagner's colors are complete, while the colors of the other 4 subjects are incomplete (this is a printing impossibility).

........Wagner's collar is blue, but the other 4 collars are not.

........CYoung's uniform has no color and his background is a pale green (it's missing the final blue ink to darken it)

(2) There are NO lines between cards on an uncut sheet, panel, or strip....what you see here are 5 individual cards.


No siree, this is not a production type uncut strip of five T206 cards.



TED Z

thegashousegang
05-19-2010, 11:54 AM
great observations, Ted. Wish I could see them in person to get a firsthand look - but I won't be heading down to a Phillies game for a little while this season.

M's_Fan
05-19-2010, 12:01 PM
Its very likely that this was a test strip, in which they were experimenting with different colors, and the final T206 colors were very different from this test/experimentation piece. So the colors don't bother me. And I don't think you could paste together several cards without there being some evidence of an actual seam, real T206's dont' have this line, but pasted cards would have a seam, so this is clearly one piece of paper with test markings on it. And who would take a Wagner and paste it with some other cards? It sold for only $200k, a strip card is probably less valuable than a stand alone Wag. That theory doesn't add up. This is a legit T206 test strip. It has its oddities and we'll never know its full history, but it isn't fake or manufactured IMO.

drdduet
05-19-2010, 12:19 PM
Good call Ted, albeit an easy one. I agree totally. What gave it away to me were the lines, your keen observations on the colors make it completely obvious!

once again great job

tedzan
05-19-2010, 12:21 PM
Sorry to disagree with you, but those vertical lines between the cards are seams. This improvised strip was done in 1909
for whatever purposes. Bill Zimplemann discovered it in Wagner's estate near Pittsburgh several decades ago..

And, the inconsistent colors should bother you, because each inking phase of the 6-color process in printing these cards
was applied simultaneously on all cards on a given sheet, panel, or strip.

Finally, your.."And who would take a Wagner and paste it with some other cards?"..is laughable. In 1909 a T206 Wagner
was no different than a T206 Wilhelm.


TED Z

teetwoohsix
05-19-2010, 12:46 PM
I can't explain the lack of color,or the seams,but I can see what M's Fan means by it appearing to be one piece of paper-when you look at the wear between the Young and the Kling,it appears to be one piece.Wouldn't the wear be peeling away down the middle,exposing a paste job?

I've not yet seen any other example of uncut T206 sheets to compare this to,has anyone else?

Clayton

dstudeba
05-19-2010, 01:07 PM
As I recall it was found in the pocket of a pair of pants in Wagner's home. I think that is probably where the "carry it around in his back pocket" came from.

I also believe it is a single sheet of printed cards, I do not believe that they are 5 seperate cards pasted together.

M's_Fan
05-19-2010, 01:46 PM
Sorry to disagree with you, but those vertical lines between the cards are seams. This improvised strip was done in 1909
for whatever purposes. Bill Zimplemann discovered it in Wagner's estate near Pittsburgh several decades ago..

They don't look like seams to me, but I haven't examined the card in person. Does anyone have a scan of the back?

And, the inconsistent colors should bother you, because each inking phase of the 6-color process in printing these cards was applied simultaneously on all cards on a given sheet, panel, or strip..

Again, that is assuming the normal printing processes of T206. I'm just saying that it is quite likely that this test strip was an experimentation piece, where all bets are off. The printer could have been experimenting with all sorts of color processes and sequences.

Finally, your.."And who would take a Wagner and paste it with some other cards?"..is laughable. In 1909 a T206 Wagner
was no different than a T206 Wilhelm. TED Z

I was thinking that someone wouldn't have done this in modern era, I wasn't considering that someone would have done this in 1909. I was thinking that in the modern era, someone with a valuable Wagner wouldn't risk everything to gain so little by attaching it to a sheet. It doesn't make the card more valuable, based on its recent auction. It doesn't add up to me, but I'm admittedly just going on my gut feeling here.

But I really can't see why someone would have done it in 1909 either now that you mention it for the reasons you stated, nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? That someone did this back in the early 1900's is even more unlikely, and actually quite laughable, to borrow a phrase...

aelefson
05-19-2010, 02:17 PM
Hi-
I was able to look at this strip a number of years ago when Steve Verkman owned it (or was holding it for the owner). I examined it at one of the Shriner's Wilmington MA shows. I do not recall it feeling/looking like it was made up of several cards pasted onto a strip, but my memory is not the greatest. Perhaps an email to Steve might clear up some of the confusion (or start it anew).
Yours in collecting,
Alan Elefson

tedzan
05-19-2010, 02:59 PM
FYI....this so-called strip is blank-backed.

Upon magnification, you will find that the vertical lines between the cards are actually seams.

Regarding your...." nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother
to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? "

This is a very naive comment, there is tons of documentation that tells us how popular these cards were
when they were initially available in 1909. Especially, the major stars of that era (Cobb, Johnson, Lajoie,
Matty, Wagner, CYoung, etc).

And, to the 2nd part of your comment....It didn't require a "card doctor" to craft this strip. The employees
at American Lithograph were high quality craftsman.
It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the
T206 market launch.

Anyhow, I will be traveling down to Citizens Bank Park to catch a Phillies game and get a close up look at
this piece.


TED Z

M's_Fan
05-19-2010, 03:23 PM
Regarding your...." nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother
to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? "

This is a very naive comment, there is tons of documentation that tells us how popular these cards were
when they were initially available in 1909. Especially, the major stars of that era (Cobb, Johnson, Lajoie,
Matty, Wagner, CYoung, etc).

TED Z

I should have phrased my comment better, the cards were popular, but certainly not considered valuable back in 1909-1911. Many people threw the cards away, many gave the cards to kids (who would beg for them outside tobacco shops). So the cards were popular (especially with kids), yes, but not valuable enough for someone to go to the great lengths of creating a fake strip card in hopes of monetary gain. I admit that this is just my opinion, its always possible that someone did that, I'm just saying it seems highly unlikely to me.

And, to the 2nd part of your comment....It didn't require a "card doctor" to craft this strip. The employees
at American Lithograph were high quality craftsman.
It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the T206 market launch.

This is possible, but it seems highly unlikely to me that someone would go to the trouble of making a strip card and hiding the seams. Even if you have the skill to do this, why would you? Wagner won't care if there are seems on his sample. And why even bother to cut cards and then make a strip for Wagner? Why not just easily paste them on a sheet of paper side by side? It just doesn't add up to me that someone would go to this effort, there seems to me no reason to do so. But maybe there is a reason they did it that we don't know of.

Anyhow, I will be traveling down to Citizens Bank Park to catch a Phillies game and get a close up look at
this piece.

TED Z

Let us know how it looks in person, wish I could take a look at this curious piece!

canjond
05-19-2010, 04:23 PM
Ted- I've seen the card in person, too, and not sure I can agree with you on this one... at least to the point it is pasted together. What I recall, and what is somewhat evident in the scan, is that the crosshairs on the cards side stretch into each other, overlap, and I believe one is double struck. In order for the pasting theory to hold water, the cards would have needed to be pasted together, then re-run through the printing process in order to get the cross hairs to line up perfectly and overlap each other. Individually printed cards would not create this same effect. Again, while I could see it would be plausible to get all of the crosshairs to line up if cards were individually printed and then pasted together, it would be impossible to get the overlapping crosshairs unless they were printed after the cards were reattached.

onlychild
05-19-2010, 05:36 PM
(1) The Wagner's colors are complete, while the colors of the other 4 subjects are incomplete (this is a printing impossibility).

........Wagner's collar is blue, but the other 4 collars are not.


I dunno Ted...compared to the other Wagner's it certainly seems to be missing some or all of the blue.

The seams or lines are sure strange. it would be great to see up close and in person.

camlov2
05-19-2010, 06:04 PM
I have never seen the piece in person, however there are a few things that stand out to me-
It seems like there is chipping between the Bowerman and Young cards (upper half) right along where the two cards would come together. The crease to the right of the Young card also seems to follow perfectly where the two cards would meet. I would guess seperate cards due to those two items and the difference in colors.

unrelated question- Why does it appear if there are lighter circles underneath all of the printers marks?

Abravefan11
05-19-2010, 06:10 PM
Edited to change my opinion.

Looking really closely at the cards below and other examples of the Wagner, it appears the underlying color of the collar is black and not white or gray like the others. So at first look it appears that Wagner's collar has had the color application and the others have not, but it is missing the blue as well.

The images could have been printed simultaneously.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S_R8JUZYrwI/AAAAAAAACgQ/nw59l8FMeTk/s640/Recently%20Updated21.jpg

barrysloate
05-19-2010, 06:23 PM
I saw the strip in person on a regular basis- it was part of the Halper Collection and when I was a cataloguer at Sotheby's during that time it was there. My memory is it was one continuous strip, but it has been over ten years since I last saw it.

jeffshep
05-19-2010, 06:37 PM
Here's a link to it selling at Mastro/Oser back in Aug. 2002 for over $78k. I recall some T3 proofs having a different look than their standard issue counterparts - slight variations in color, perhaps a crisper image.

Now if Bowerman and Wags had only switched places, lookout!

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=27422

Abravefan11
05-19-2010, 06:46 PM
Here's a large image of Wagner's collar where you can see the underlying color is black with a blue layer applied on top.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S_SGBkM4LqI/AAAAAAAAChI/Eg74MXL9pS0/Wag%20Collar.jpg

jmk59
05-19-2010, 06:50 PM
Tim - very nice layout of the strip and the individual cards in the same order. Thanks for putting it together - makes it very easy to compare and think.

J

steve B
05-19-2010, 07:40 PM
Without getting into wether it's a pasteup or not - And I'm on the fence about that- I can point out why someone would make a pasteup like that.

It's an old sales tool to drop names, even if the names dropped haven't signed or bought yet. Some old sales letters will mention well known personalities or companies that use the product, and yes it's underhanded, but some of those people or companies didn't ever buy the product.

So lets say you're trying to get Wagner to sign so you could use his image.
You send a letter saying something like "all the greatest players have agreed to be in the set". And along with that you send a sample. That sample can go a couple ways depending on the individual. Someone with a big ego that was very public say Reggie Jackson? You'd probably just include his own card. For most people you'd want to include their card plus a few others. Just like on this strip. Young is a good choice unless Wagner doesn't like him personally. Brown is also a good choice, one of the better pitchers, and also a national leaguer. Both those choices play to the ego, if Young and Brown are in the set most guys would want to be there as well. Bowerman and Kling seem like odd choices, maybe there were more sample strips and the better players got used up. OR maybe Bowerman and Kling were guys that were friends with Wagner or players he respected for some reason. I don;t know enough about Wagner or Bowerman and Kling to feel at all sure.

What doesn't quite fit this idea is Wagner being anywhwere other than the center of the strip. That's where I'd put him if the strip was a pasteup targeted towards him.

Totallly unsupported guess? If it's a pasteup maybe it was Bowermans and Wagner got it from him when he heard about the cards that he hadn't agreed to be on?

Pasteups like this would also be used to arrange the final sheet layout once all the designs had been approved either by the player portrayed or the printers art department. or both. I think modern cards have a whole crew of approvals required.

Steve B

jeffshep
05-19-2010, 07:44 PM
Great observations Steve!

carrigansghost
05-19-2010, 09:05 PM
I too have seen this strip and the printers marks do cross over. I believe it to be not made made a talented craftsman from any era.

Rawn

tedzan
05-19-2010, 09:05 PM
This was my understanding and what I stated regarding this 5-card strip back in post #24......

"It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the T206 market launch."

Your story is an excellent elaboration on what has been rumored about this Wagner strip. Thanks for posting it.


TED Z

FrankWakefield
05-19-2010, 10:35 PM
It doesn't look like any sort of normal proof to me.

I see the cross marks, and it is obvious that all of the color isn't there. Those features seem consistent with proofs.

What looks wrong to me are those lines that Ted mentions. If card stock had been used to print proofs there would be no vertical lines where the cards would have been separated. In looking at the places where it looks like the cards have lost their surface, it makes me think that what was printed there was printed on paper, not on card stock. Then, those pieces of paper were assembled onto a piece of card stock.

I do think it is something that would have come out of the shops of American Lithograph. But it looks assembled because of those lines. If it was just a proof on card stock, then there would be no vertical lines where the cards would be cut, there would only be the proof cross marks.

botn
05-19-2010, 11:15 PM
I saw the strip back in 1999 and I too believe it is one continuous strip of cards but I was not inspecting it for that purpose.

barrysloate
05-20-2010, 05:05 AM
Maybe when Wagner was asked his permission to appear in the set, he simply asked them to send a sample so he could see what they looked like before he made up his mind. And then the printers hastily sent him something.

tedzan
05-20-2010, 08:18 AM
FYI....here are some examples of pre & post-war Salesman's Samples. Such BB card promotional samples (throughout the years)
have preceded new issues. And for obvious reasons, they are always standard production examples of the actual BB cards.

This 5-card (Wagner) "strip" in no way represents a standard production of T206's. In my opinion, it was hastily cobbled together
with individual FRONTS of T206's to provide Wagner a sample of his card.... prior to the T206 production run in the Spring of 1909.
And, as Steve B alluded to, 4 other players were discretely selected from American Litho's T206 proof pile and added to compose
this strip.....perhaps, in order to sway Wagner to grant them the rights to include him in this set.

From what we know about how T206's were printed, a true production uncut horizontal strip of T206's would comprise of at least
6 cards.....and, without lines between these cards, or the alignment cross-hair markings.

No one here has yet presented a plausible argument regarding this "strip" to convince me (and some others), otherwise.



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/39pb54b59flpromosamples.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/39pb54b59flpromosamplesb.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


TED Z

Abravefan11
05-20-2010, 08:32 AM
I'm skeptical of the theory that American Litho made or sent this strip to Wagner for his approval or to sway him into being included in the set.

If you were trying to sway Wagner would you send him an incomplete product? Or would you run the additional colors and send him an example of a finished product?

JamesGallo
05-20-2010, 09:24 AM
I think the fact that several people who have seen it in person think it is a strip means something.

Ted have you not seen this in person.

I know something about the prodruction process and I can tell you that there are times when there is one or a few things done differently from everything else.

Also if this was not a strip I don't know why it wouldn't be removed and sold as single cards. This has always sold for less then single Wagners and I think as a single card the Wagner would sell for more then the strip has.

James G

tedzan
05-20-2010, 10:07 AM
1st......the story says this strip was in Wagner's estate until it was discovered in the 1970's..............Do you accept this ?

2nd...."off the bat", Wagner claimed he did not want to be any part of these tobacco cards. But, he was one of the most
popular BB players in that era; and, ATC wanted to include him in their new set of premiums....I think we know this is so ?

3rd.....this strip has all the makings of a HASTILY conceived attempt to persuade Mr Wagner to sign onto ATC's designs.
Again, I have to repeat what STEVE B has very astutely suggested......

"For most people you'd want to include their card plus a few others. Just like on this strip. Young is a good choice unless
Wagner doesn't like him personally. Brown is also a good choice, one of the better pitchers, and also a national leaguer.
Both those choices play to the ego, if Young and Brown are in the set most guys would want to be there as well."

Finally, Tim regarding your........
"If you were trying to sway Wagner would you send him an incomplete product? Or would you run the additional colors and
send him an example of a finished product? "

ATC was ready to go into production with these cards in the Spring/Summer of 1909 and this was a pre-production "selling
sample" that they cobbled together at the last moment....at least Wagner's picture is virtually complete.


In any event, I personally feel that if we can date this piece to being a pre-production T206 artifact, it should garner a value
equal to (or greater than) any similar Wagner card.

However, to date it has not, nor will it....until it is professionally SLABBED....this is too bad !



TED Z

E93
05-20-2010, 10:08 AM
The lack of blue looks to be uniform across all five cards. But color variations from proof to final versions do not bother me. They probably had not yet made final decisions on colors, etc. But they were close enough to use this to try to entice Wagner to sign on. It is evident that this would be a high quality set with a nice depiction of him, were he to agree to be a part of it.
JimB

E93
05-20-2010, 10:10 AM
I tend to think it is a strip, not pasted together, but honestly I don't think it really matters. It is five proofs, including Wagner, with provenance tracing back to Wagner himself!!! I have always been surprised that it has not sold for more. Condition must be the major factor in lower than anticipated pricing. That may change some day.
JimB

tedzan
05-20-2010, 10:50 AM
As I said......

" In any event, I personally feel that if we can date this piece to being a pre-production T206 artifact,
it should garner a value equal to (or greater than) any similar Wagner card.
However, to date it has not, nor will it....until it is professionally SLABBED....this is too bad ! "


Watch it's value rise to Big, Big $$$$$$, if some one convinces a Grading Co. to SLAB it.


TED Z

drc
05-20-2010, 12:27 PM
From the pic, it looks like a pasted up item to me. However, that doesn't mean it isn't genuine. By definition, proofs are pre-final production tests and are apt to be different than normal.

Abravefan11
05-20-2010, 02:20 PM
Ted -

Yes I agree with the points you have made. It's a fascinating piece and I also agree that once it's slabbed by a grading service the price will go way up.

Tex
05-23-2010, 01:54 PM
Ok I don't have nearly the knowledge of some of you in this thread, but I gotta ask: How is a proof strip supposed to convince Wagner to sign on?

I realize there are all sorts of theories about the motive of Wagner's opposition, but the assumption that this strip was a negotiation dangle probably could use a check.

barrysloate
05-23-2010, 02:14 PM
It's possible Wagner wanted to see what the cards looked like before he made a decision.

FUBAR
05-23-2010, 04:19 PM
So Ted, Can we expect you to be the buyer this summer??

I would expect this to be valued more then the individual card for 2 reasons, the first being, this is the only known example of the strip versus 60 regular Wagner cards, and two- the provenance, knowing that the Wagner estate was the owner.

A grading company would be silly not to want to slab this... what company wouldn't want their name on the most limited, unique and possible best find in the past 30 years?

then again, what do i know? :confused::confused:

onlychild
05-23-2010, 04:20 PM
Regarding the provenance:

Is this just an oral provenance or is it in writing somewhere by the estate? In the collecting world, provenace is only as good as the paper it's written on.

Can/Has anyone ever traced it back to its origins?...or was it just placed in an auction description? Would be interesting to know.

I think a piece so historically significant would need a rock solid backing.

Tex
05-23-2010, 04:43 PM
It's possible Wagner wanted to see what the cards looked like before he made a decision.

That implies that the look of the cards had something to do with Wagner's decision. I have a hard time believing he'd care.

canjond
05-23-2010, 04:57 PM
Ted - you and I know each other fairly well and I certainly defer to you on many T206 subjects (in fact, probably most). However, I'm curious as to how you might be able to offer an alternative explanation for the overlapping and double-stike proof marks?

Even if you could imagine all 5 cards being precisely cut so that they could be pasted on a strip together in such a way that all proof marks line up (I'm sure that would be an extremely difficult process itself), it still doesn't explain the "double-struck" proof mark.

jeffshep
05-23-2010, 05:09 PM
I was siding with the full printed strip theory, but after staring at it for a bit a few things still have me questioning the possibility of this. First, I would assume the red "B" missing on Bowerman's jersey would also mean Kling and Brown would be lacking their red background color, but clearly it's present. One possibility is that team names were reserved for a separate printing plate, to make necessary changes if a player was traded etc. ATC may have had a multi-year release in mind upon T206's inception.

Second, I've had some truly wretched T206 beaters in my day, but something just looks off in some of those creases - almost as if there is some sort of material composite going on. Look at the upper right corner of Brown - it appears as if a portion of the "top layer" is folded over, touching the edge of Wagner's border.

Third - the toning of the white borders. I've witnessed the discoloring various glues can cause on paper, especially over time - these borders just lack the brilliance most T206's possess. Obviously without card in hand, or a decent hi-res scan, it's difficult to tell. I'm also curious as to what the lightened areas under the proof marks are? To me the borders should be that color, and the rest has been toned down due to the introduction of some sort of adhesive to the reverse. It's possible these "proofs" were printed on thin paper stock, not the usual thicker stock which I believe had some sort of clay coating on the front - hence the lack of brilliance or "pop" in color on the cards.

Just some observations. Regardless, it's an amazing piece - I remember being in awe as a 12yr old when I first saw a pic of it...

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S_R8JUZYrwI/AAAAAAAACgQ/nw59l8FMeTk/s640/Recently%20Updated21.jpg[/QUOTE]

carrigansghost
05-23-2010, 05:12 PM
Unless you have seen this strip, I don't see how you can comment as to it's authenticity. Conjecture as to it's origins are most welcome. Again I have seen this and am very comfortable with saying that it was printed as some sort of sample and not a conjured piece by some card doctor.

Not an expert, just my observations.

Rawn

barrysloate
05-23-2010, 05:14 PM
How is that the Brown, Wagner, Young, and Kling have multiple heavy creases, but the Bowerman is nearly crease free?

jeffshep
05-23-2010, 05:16 PM
For the record I definitely think it's vintage, not some contemporary card doctor frankenstein - just not sure it was printed as one sheet or pieced together. It would be very east to tell in person.

jeffshep
05-23-2010, 05:21 PM
That Wagner crease to me looks like several instances of folding and opening - maybe the story about finding it in Wag's pocket in the attic is legit?

teetwoohsix
05-23-2010, 05:23 PM
I have never seen this in person myself, but all of the board members who have seen it in person have pretty much the same opinion on it--that it appears to be one solid strip, and not some type of paste job.

Clayton

steve B
05-23-2010, 06:35 PM
That implies that the look of the cards had something to do with Wagner's decision. I have a hard time believing he'd care.
I'm not sure about how much control the players had or cared to have back then. I do know that Wagner had enough clout to get the card pulled for whatever reason you care to go with- didn't get paid, didn't get paid enough, didn't want kids to have to buy tobacco, didn't like the picture. Whatever reason it did get pulled.

Today you'd find it hard to believe the players would care what their card looks like, but they do. Some very much so, and every player signs off on every one of their cards, either personally, or by proxy (Mlbpa, agent etc.)
That's a big part of what the companies have to go through as part of the proofing process.

steve B

Who once spent an entire Saturday looking for 50 perfect college faculty guides out of a print run of 5000. Each faculty member got a guide, and they couldn't have any chance of a tiny print defect on any of the pictures.

tedzan
05-23-2010, 08:10 PM
I'm not sure I understand your "overlaping" comment ?

The cross-hair proof marks are very precise ID's for aligning the 6-color registration process in the printing of these cards.
Therefore, when these cards are placed adjacent to each other, I fully expect these marks to be in perfect alignment from
card to card.

Everyone has to realize that this is a pre-production piece. These are not completed cards, but thin-film like FRONTS that
I claim were affixed on a horizontal strip. Again, I repeat, the inconsistency of the colors of these 5 cards with respect to
each other is a total PRINTING IMPOSSIBILITY. I dare anyone to show me an UNCUT sheet, or strip with "crazy" colors as
these; and, lines between the cards ? ? ? ?


Regarding your last statement......."Even if you could imagine all 5 cards being precisely cut so that they could be pasted
on a strip together in such a way that all proof marks line up (I'm sure that would be an extremely difficult process itself)"

Jon....we are talking about the foremost Lithographic Co. in America back then. These printers were world class craftsmen.
This "junk" that we are mulling over here is incidental compared to the large pieces of complex artwork that they produced
on a daily basis during that era.


TED Z

canjond
05-23-2010, 08:29 PM
Ted - the "overlapping" proof marks I'm talking about appear on the strip and are easier to see in person than on the small scan. In short, the proof marks between two of the cards have a double set of proof marks - in other words, one set was printed, and then another set was printed almost on top of the previous set, but just slightly askew so there is the smallest of gaps between them. In order for the "pasted" theory to hold water in my opinion, the strip would have had to be pasted together, then run through the printing process again after being pasted together, and the result would have been the slightly overlapping proof mark. I just can't see another way for the overlapping printers proof marks to appear on the strip if the strip was, indeed, pasted together.

tedzan
05-23-2010, 08:56 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't see what you are alluding to, on the scan shown here.

But, more significantly, don't the following abnormalities trouble you........ ?

(1).....In the 6-color process used by American Litho. to print these cards, RED is the very last color to
be applied....yet Brown and Kling are Red; however, Bowerman is missing the Red "B" on his uniform.

(2).....CYoung's uniform color is missing, yet the other 4 cards have their normal uniform colors.

And Jon, please tell me when (if ever) you have seen any white-bordered card with VERTICAL LINES
printed on them ?

Regards,

TED Z

jeffshep
05-23-2010, 09:49 PM
Good point on the printed vertical lines Ted - it is odd. There does seem to be some very minor chipping or flaking along the vertical border between Bowerman and Young, revealing a lighter paper stock underneath. This doesn't appear to have been caused by creasing, as seen on the vertical line between Young and Kling. One could assume this is caused by two images glued next to each other and experiencing similar wear over 100 years.

Matt
06-12-2010, 08:37 PM
Have at it:

http://www.huntauctions.com/live/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=27&lot_num=242&lot_qual=

wayne1
06-12-2010, 09:49 PM
Ted Z and others, I can shed a little light on this proof strip. Back in 1978 Bill Zimpleman, Mike Wheat, Ken Blazek, and myself, Wayne Varner were on a buying trip in the Pittsburgh area and we purchased this strip from a gentleman who had purchased Wagner's house. We bought a number of items he found in the house. I cannot remember all the details, but after we purchased the strip, we had a drawing, and I won the strip. I sold it in 1980 to Barry Helper, who to my knowledge owned the strip until he passed away. I can tell you from holding the strip many times, it is not cards pasted together. Could that have been done at the factory and then potographed to send to Wagner, possibly, but not likely. However it was done, it was definately done at the factory, and has the proof lines like all the proof cards I have ever seen. I have seen the strip on several occasions since Barry passed away and it is in the same orginial condition as when I owned it from 1978 until 1980. There is no question it is orginial and unaltered no matter what anyone says. Hope this helps a little.

Wayne Varner
SHOEBOX CARDS

jcmtiger
06-12-2010, 10:30 PM
This strip has been around for quite awhile. Not sure about how many auctions, but sold a few times also. I think it is one strip, not put together. Myself It would be hard to believe Wagner had anything to do with this strip. Carried in his back pocket, I don't believe that. I just think it is a proof example of what was going to be produced later. I think Wayne would be the expert on the strip since he owned it at one time. There are quite a few newcomers that have not seen the strip and are speculating about it. That's alright but it is not new business.

joe

barrysloate
06-13-2010, 05:20 AM
Barry Halper sold the strip in 1999 through Sotheby's, which was of course many years before his death. Now that it is slabbed, it will be interesting to see how much of premium it will sell for over previous sales.

FrankWakefield
06-13-2010, 06:46 AM
Hello Wayne, and thanks for posting.

Is that strip on paper, card stock, what? Same thickness as a T206, thinner, thicker??

Frank W

wayne1
06-13-2010, 07:40 AM
Frank, as I recall, and that was 30 years ago since I actually held it in my hands, it was regular card stock. It definately was not thin paper.

judsonhamlin
06-13-2010, 07:54 AM
Frank, as I recall, and that was 30 years ago since I actually held it in my hands, it was regular card stock. It definately was not thin paper.

good thing - then we'd call it a Coupon :D

Leon
06-13-2010, 08:29 AM
Thanks Wayne, for chiming in. It wasn't that bad to post on a message board, was it? I can't wait to see you and Bill again at the National. Ya'll are some of my favorite guys to just sit and chat with. If I am lucky I will catch ya'll eating breakfast again and pull up a chair. Welcome to the board (I know you have read it but joining in is more fun). Say hi to Bill for me.....best regards

btw, GREAT info on the Wags strip too!!!

wayne1
06-13-2010, 10:29 AM
Thanks Leon, just thought I could add some facts since I owned it for 2 years and others are just seeing it from their computer. It is real and it is a neat piece. I was happy to sell it to Barry, as it meant more to him at the time than it did to me, but I wished I had kept it now.

Jewish-collector
06-14-2010, 01:06 PM
Wayne,

Welcome to the Net54 forum. See you in Baltimore.

KNH
06-15-2010, 08:42 PM
Is this the same strip that Al Rosen used to have? I remember seeing something like this at I believe a Fort Washington show back in the 80's. I think he was asking 2M for it.

Jay Wolt
06-15-2010, 08:49 PM
Kary, yes its the same strip.
Was advertised in SCD in several issues as well w/ the hefty price tag

Jewish-collector
06-16-2010, 09:10 AM
This is one of those items that every auction house will end up featuring at one time or another. Mastro sold it in 2002. Hunt in 2010. Who's going to be next ? REA ? Heritage ? Memory Lane ? Maybe this topic is a a good poll ? :D

matty39
06-16-2010, 09:44 AM
I haven't read through the entire thread so I don't know if this has already been posted, but the strip card is in the current Hunt catalog, lot 242. It is slabbed by SGC as authentic.

benjulmag
06-16-2010, 12:31 PM
Inasmuch as the strip already is graded authentic and has pretty crummy eye appeal, I wonder if this is not one of those instances where restoration could materially increase its value. It's not like it will prevent it from getting a number grade. But it could, by taking advantage of the strong colors the strip has, create something that would be attractive to look at. We have seen with posters that such restoration, even of the major kind, can significantly increase market value. Maybe it could with this too.

Matt
06-16-2010, 12:53 PM
Corey - you sound like the item description. :)

brass_rat
06-23-2010, 09:43 PM
I called Hunt Auctions to check in on how long the strip would be on display...much to my dismay, it's no longer at the stadium...I didn't have a chance to make it down from NYC...

botn
06-23-2010, 09:49 PM
I was hoping by now to hear Ted Z's opinion on the strip as he said he would be traveling to the ballpark while it was on display.

19cbb
07-04-2010, 09:02 PM
Not sure if this video has been posted already, but here's David Hunt showing the slabbed Wagner strip on MSNBC.

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jmk59
07-05-2010, 07:22 AM
I hadn't seen it, so thanks so much for posting it. Hunt did a great job in the interview, didn't he? Relaxed and affable, with natural enthusiasm. Great for him to have landed the All-Star deal with MLB and now turning it into an "event" auction.

I wondered for a minute if any individual consignment agreement includes that the item will be part of any media coverage such as this clip. This auction might be expected to get more media coverage than most, and it seemed like having a "first in line for MSNBC piece" might be a good sales pitch. But probably not. Anyone interested in and able to afford the Wagner strip didn't need to see it on MSNBC to know it's in the auction. More likely the publicity helps the auction overall and many some of the non-major pieces, but the premium items would be well known beforehand.

Thanks again for posting the clip.

J

Rob D.
07-05-2010, 07:36 AM
I hadn't seen it, so thanks so much for posting it. Hunt did a great job in the interview, didn't he? Relaxed and affable, with natural enthusiasm. Great for him to have landed the All-Star deal with MLB and now turning it into an "event" auction.

I wondered for a minute if any individual consignment agreement includes that the item will be part of any media coverage such as this clip. This auction might be expected to get more media coverage than most, and it seemed like having a "first in line for MSNBC piece" might be a good sales pitch. But probably not. Anyone interested in and able to afford the Wagner strip didn't need to see it on MSNBC to know it's in the auction. More likely the publicity helps the auction overall and many some of the non-major pieces, but the premium items would be well known beforehand.

Thanks again for posting the clip.

J

I agree that it's a great catch for Hunt Auctions to hook up with MLB for an annual All-Star Game auction. Maybe they could celebrate by updating their Web site to 2010. Heck, even 2002.

jmk59
07-05-2010, 08:06 AM
I was thinking the same thing Rob, that maybe this is what can put them in the mix with the big guys. I have always kept an eye on Hunt auctions, but the horrible software has always left me thinking that they are sort of like the garage sale of auction houses. Lots of stuff, mostly small or niche, some bigger/better items, but you have to dig around for things buried in the loosely collated piles on tables.

J

brass_rat
07-13-2010, 06:51 PM
$275,000.

There were some other interesting prices in this auction...and some pieces that failed to sell...

http://huntauctions.com/Live/view_featured_items_list.cfm

steve B
07-13-2010, 07:41 PM
I'm missing something there. It shows high bid as 121,000 but sold for 275,000 was 275,000 the reserve and it didn't actually sell?

Steve B

brass_rat
07-13-2010, 07:47 PM
I believe the first column represents the initial online bidding that ended on Sunday. Live bidding concluded the auction today. It appears that if something didn't meet the reserve, the "sold for" price is listed as $0.00.

Jim VB
07-13-2010, 09:27 PM
To me, the most amazing part of that page is realizing that Chili Davis had 3 World Series Trophies.

steve B
07-13-2010, 09:39 PM
I believe the first column represents the initial online bidding that ended on Sunday. Live bidding concluded the auction today. It appears that if something didn't meet the reserve, the "sold for" price is listed as $0.00.

Ah, now it makes sense. Thanks.

Steve B

White Borders
07-15-2010, 12:54 PM
Just received this email from everybody's favorite auction house.

EXCEPTIONALLY RARE T-206 HONUS WAGNER TOBACCO PROOF STRIP c. 1909-11 PURCHASED FOR $316,250 BY SCP AUCTIONS AT MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL ALL-STAR AUCTION


The unique surviving T-206 Honus Wagner tobacco proof strip was purchased Tuesday at the Major League Baseball All-Star Auction for $316,250 by SCP Auctions of Laguna Niguel, CA for an anonymous client.

The T-206 piece includes four other players: Mordecai Brown (HOF), Frank Bowerman, Cy Young (HOF), and Johnny Kling, along with Wagner.

Commenting on the acquisition, David Kohler, president and CEO of SCP Auctions, said: “We are thrilled that we have been able to help our client obtain this iconic object in the field of baseball card collecting. The interest in T-206 Wagner legacy continues to transcend popular culture.”

The legacy of the T-206 Honus Wagner Card dates to its creation and initial release by the American Tobacco Company in 1909 as part of a series that included more than 500 different cards. T-206 tobacco cards are among the most widely collected, popular and sought after cards among current collectors.

It is estimated that only 50-60 examples of the T-206 Wagner have surfaced. Numerous myths have been perpetuated and debated during the course of the last century as to the reason for its scarcity. One of the prevailing theories is that Wagner, one of the premier players in the history of baseball, insisted that he be paid by the tobacco company for the use of his image, causing the production of his card to be halted. A more common and well-documented theory is that Wagner simply did not want children to be influenced into buying tobacco products just to get a “picture” of him, and thus forced the early withdrawal of his image on this principle. The volumes that have been written and countless tales that have been spun make the T206 Wagner card a part of classic American Folklore.

T-206 Honus Wagner Tobacco Proof Strip Sells for $316,250
The proof had recently been graded by the professional grading service SGC and certified with an "Authentic" designation. This is the first time that this iconic strip has been professionally graded. For more information, please visit www.scpauctions.com.

botn
07-15-2010, 01:11 PM
Hope they did not try to pay for it with numerous money orders under $5,000 each. :eek:

Jim VB
07-15-2010, 01:14 PM
Want to bet that their "client" is the same one that owns the PSA 8 Wagner?

Jewish-collector
07-15-2010, 01:57 PM
I guess SCP deserves this:

http://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gifhttp://forum.mydyingbride.org/images/smilies/beerchug.gif

Leon
07-15-2010, 01:58 PM
Hope they did not try to pay for it with numerous money orders under $5,000 each. :eek:

63 x

crazysc
07-17-2010, 06:16 PM
My little part of the strip's history.

I know Steve Verkman bought it from the Halper/Sotheby's auction ten or so years ago. I think he paid about $85K for it. In one of his later auctions, I purchased it from him for $91K. I used it in a Shop At Home promotion as a grand prize in a drawing - I believe a lady from the south won it, and later that year consigned it to a Mastro auction. I believe it sold in the Mastro auction for somewhere in the high $70s or low $80s - I do remember Steve making the comment that it brought the most money in his auction out of the three.

I never removed it from the glass holder/case that it was in from the Sotheby's sale, but there is no doubt in my mind that it was one sold strip/piece. The back was blank. It had the genuine feel and look of T206s from that era. I don't remember if it had a factory "cut" or a hand cut - didn't really seem relevant.

Having held it for maybe six months...it's a unique piece, but it is aesthetically as ugly as a hundred grand piece can be. Considering what Poor/Fair Wagners are going for, you'd think this item would be worth more, but the appeal just isn't there.

Leon
07-18-2010, 06:32 AM
My little part of the strip's history.

I know Steve Verkman bought it from the Halper/Sotheby's auction ten or so years ago. I think he paid about $85K for it. In one of his later auctions, I purchased it from him for $91K. I used it in a Shop At Home promotion as a grand prize in a drawing - I believe a lady from the south won it, and later that year consigned it to a Mastro auction. I believe it sold in the Mastro auction for somewhere in the high $70s or low $80s - I do remember Steve making the comment that it brought the most money in his auction out of the three.

I never removed it from the glass holder/case that it was in from the Sotheby's sale, but there is no doubt in my mind that it was one sold strip/piece. The back was blank. It had the genuine feel and look of T206s from that era. I don't remember if it had a factory "cut" or a hand cut - didn't really seem relevant.

Having held it for maybe six months...it's a unique piece, but it is aesthetically as ugly as a hundred grand piece can be. Considering what Poor/Fair Wagners are going for, you'd think this item would be worth more, but the appeal just isn't there.

Solomon- thanks for giving more information on the strip and thanks for registering for our forum. Glad to have you aboard!!

Northviewcats
07-18-2010, 08:55 AM
This is pure speculation, but perhaps the reason the printer placed the subjects in this order is based on aesthetics and blending of colors. The red backed cards make a pleasing outside frame. The Olive background of the Bowerman card in the center is a nice blend of the orange and green backgrounds that flank it. The printer may have even thought to put the Wagner in the center of the strip, but is artistic eye told him that this was the best combination.

Best wishes,

Joe

mkdltn
07-18-2010, 11:39 AM
For those that have seen this card, was the area that is the white border area gray in color? you can see the white areas that appear to be the white of the paper around the register marks.
This strip is either a partial group from the original arangement of subjects on the original matrix stones or plates, Or it something that was put together by pulling transfers for each of these players and creating a separate set of stones or plates with this configuration before the art for some of the colors was unfinished.

ScottFandango
07-19-2013, 10:38 AM
FYI....this so-called strip is blank-backed.

Upon magnification, you will find that the vertical lines between the cards are actually seams.

Regarding your...." nobody cared much about these cards in 1909, so why, in 1909, would anyone bother
to attach them to a sheet with the precision of an accomplished card doctor? "

This is a very naive comment, there is tons of documentation that tells us how popular these cards were
when they were initially available in 1909. Especially, the major stars of that era (Cobb, Johnson, Lajoie,
Matty, Wagner, CYoung, etc).

And, to the 2nd part of your comment....It didn't require a "card doctor" to craft this strip. The employees
at American Lithograph were high quality craftsman.
It is rumored that this 5-card strip was specifically crafted as a sample piece given to Wagner prior to the
T206 market launch.

Anyhow, I will be traveling down to Citizens Bank Park to catch a Phillies game and get a close up look at
this piece.
TED Z

i love how me and Ted think alike!

this is what i believe the majority of "blank back" cards to be....SAMPLES that Amer Litho employees would use to sell the art to different companies...



TED Z[/QUOTE]

Cardboard Junkie
07-19-2013, 12:51 PM
I just plowed through this whole thread......so it's not vertical seams?
Not separate cards "pasted" together?
Actually a "proof" strip?

Cool.

atx840
07-19-2013, 01:10 PM
One of my favourite T206 pieces...hope to finish and have it litho printed one day. Recreated using original portraits.

http://i.imgur.com/S6sTec9.jpg

ScottFandango
07-19-2013, 07:39 PM
One of my favourite T206 pieces...hope to finish and have it litho printed one day. Recreated using original portraits.

http://i.imgur.com/S6sTec9.jpg

Just made this my background on my PC....thank you

Rob D.
07-19-2013, 08:00 PM
I would strongly recommend that Net54 newcomers take 15-20 minutes and read this thread from the beginning. It's pretty enlightening, and not just about the T206 Wagner strip.

ZenPop
07-20-2013, 12:59 AM
Just got done reading this whole thing... pretty cool detective story from the beginning to present...

This reminds me that when I was driving through Pittsburgh a few years ago, I stopped at a small antique store and the owner, who's last name eludes me, showed me a strip just like this one... but the strip was was in much better shape and extended to include Plank on one side and the Doyle error card on the other. This was the real deal, so I ask held my breath and asked how much... Imagine my surprise when he just handed it to me... I've kept this strip to myself all this time, but I just sent it over to PSA to... nah... just kidding.

Seriously, though... excellent thread. And much thanks to the participants for the illuminating discussion!

HOF Yankees
07-20-2013, 01:20 AM
this past march I went to a antiques and collectibles show here in Waukesha,wi and my 2 buddies and I wanted to go and check stuff out, now we scanned the whole show floor nothing real good until we came to one of the last show cases and saw a similar card like that one un graded. I should have bought it to take a chance but the chances were like -.01 percent chance the one I saw at the show was real but for 5.00 I should have taken that chance. Awesome strip card by the way.

buymycards
07-20-2013, 06:16 AM
Hi, I have a question about your post. You said that it had the "look and feel" of a T206 but you also said that you never removed it from the glass holder, so how could you feel it?

Not trying to be a smart *** or anything but I am curious about this statement. I do appreciate your input and your experience with cards and I am not trying to be negative in any way.

Thanks,

Rick

Cardboard Junkie
07-20-2013, 10:19 AM
Hi, I have a question about your post. You said that it had the "look and feel" of a T206 but you also said that you never removed it from the glass holder, so how could you feel it?

Not trying to be a smart *** or anything but I am curious about this statement. I do appreciate your input and your experience with cards and I am not trying to be negative in any way.

Thanks,

Rick

I wondered the same thing.....both statements can't be true. Dave

Jeffrompa
07-20-2013, 10:32 AM
Hey Leon ,

I print those in my basement everyday . :)

deucetwins
07-20-2013, 07:53 PM
So getting back to the origin and reason for the strip. Assuming that it was given to Wagner to get him to sign on for the production, and following the anti-tobacco myth, were any of the other 4 known non-smokers/tobacco users? This could be a reason that these 4 were included on the strip. Perhaps to entice Wagner to join up after seeing that other anti-tobacco players were signed on. This is an underhanded move by ATC, but how can you print a set without one of the stars of the day? Like an earlier post, I can see why "stars" such as Young and Brown would be included on the strip. However, I'm also curious as to why Kling and Bowerman (commons) would be included on the strip. So was ATC trying to appeal to his ego, his anti-tobacco stance, or as alluded to previously, was it just good ole' fashioned greenbacks that stood in the way?

deadballfreaK
07-20-2013, 08:32 PM
Personally I have never bought the Wagner anti-tobacco theory. I believe he chewed tobacco and smoked cigars. I suppose he could have had concerns about youth, but just doesn't seem right. I think monetary or contractual reasons.

g_vezina_c55
07-22-2013, 12:05 PM
I would strongly recommend that Net54 newcomers take 15-20 minutes and read this thread from the beginning. It's pretty enlightening, and not just about the T206 Wagner strip.

Just read the thread from the begining and i also recommend newcomers to take time to read it completely.

Verry cool thread.