Question regarding OLD JUDGE & GOODWIN cards' sources ?

[tedzan]

I was an avid collector of N162's in the 1980's and 1990's. In the process of completing 3.5 sets, I recall acquiring a bunch of these cards
from England. The Englishman selling me these N162's said that they were in his family's collection for 100 years. None of the 8 baseball
cards were in his collection, but mostly all the other 42 sports Champions were. Not unusual, since a good number of the N162 Champions
were international sports figures (e.g. Joe Acton, D'Oro, MacKenzie, Steinitz, Vignaux, Voss, Charles Wood, Zukertort, etc.).

So, as the back of my Old Judge cigarette pack states...."Packed in our Star Tin foil Expressly for Export Trade"....leads me ask how many
of you have acquired Allen & Ginter's, Goodwin's, Kimball's, etc. from original collections outside the USA ?



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/aoldjudgecigpack.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/boldjudgen162gaudaur.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



Thanks Barry Sloate for selling me the 42 (non-baseball) N162's in 1985. That started me on my "love affair" with these Goodwin Champions.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Back at the old George Washington Motor Lodge in Willow Grove...but probably a bit later than 1985.

[uffda51]

Great question. To the best of my knowledge, none of my Allen & Ginter's, Goodwin's, Kimball's, etc. came from outside the U.S. Certainly a lot of card collectors in the U.K., though.

[tedzan]

Not at Willow Grove. It was part of one of our larger deals at my home. I am almost sure it was sometime in late 1985.
As I recall in 1986 I showed the N162's to a fellow dealer and he offered me considerably more than I paid you for them.
By then, I had become very attached to them......keeping them was one of my better decisions in this hobby. For as you
know, these Goodwin Champions are my hobby favorites.

TED Z

[E93]

Ted,
I have not bought any from outside of the country that I know of, but I have the same "export" pack that you showed. There are other Old Judge packs that look almost identical that do say they were packed expressly for export. Perhaps only non-baseball were put in the export packs. Or perhaps the family of your English connection just through away the baseball players.
JimB
P.S. I know of people who have picked up N28s from folks in England.


http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1695/oldjudgepack11.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/i/oldjudgepack11.jpg/)

PPS. I am not sure why I can't make this scan bigger.

[autograf]

Have gotten lots of A&G nonsports from across the pond. Typically from Murray or other collectors though. No N162's......beautiful cards though. I understand the Wharton-Tigar collection in England's museum houses NT/MT condition A&G sets.

[rhettyeakley]

I have gotten several A&G, Duke, & Goodwin cards from collectors in both the UK and Australia.

It is also interesting to note that it is obvious that Goodwin targetted Australia specifically w/ its Old Judge brand as I have owned a few of the Aussie "Football" players that are sometimes encountered-one or two came directly from Australian ebay sellers.
-Rhett

[barrysloate]

Ted- I usually defer to your memory, but 1985 still sounds early to me. I think I did buy them at Willow Grove, however.

[Leon]

Through the years I have bought quite a few US baseball cards from overseas (England) but I don't think any were from N162. Jon C might be able to answer the question pertaining to cards in the export Old Judge packs. The export ones seem to be a bit more plentiful than the American OJ packs, maybe because collectors keep the American ones more often, but I am not sure.

[DJR]

.

[tedzan]

DJR

This is an interesting observation on your part......"It feels like, on average, N cards (my focus) collected by UK
collectors are in much higher grades."


The N162 cards I acquired from the English gentleman were Excellent. Furthermore, none of them had the usual
glue or photo album page residue on their backs....typical of many 19th Century cards found in this country.


Also, you alluded to the "Geo. S Harris & Sons, Lith. Phila." trademark (TM) on the some of the N162's. American
Lithographic Co. purchased Harris Litho.; but, I am not certain that it occured during the press runs of the N162
cards. If so, then that might explain why some cards were printed with the TM, while other N162's don't have it.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Following up on the post regarding the N162 cards with the printer's TradeMark (TM).
My research, during 25 years of collecting these cards, indicates that approx. 20% of
the N162 cards are found with this TM.



<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bharrissonslithotm.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

Any one who has has knowledge of why the TM is missing on the majority of N162's,
please chime in ?



TED Z

[tedzan]

I've read thru most of the recent Old Judge & Goodwin book by Jay Miller, Joe Gonsowski and Richard Masson
and, perhaps I missed it....but, couldn't find any info regarding foreign finds of these late 19th Century cards.

Perhaps, Jay Miller will chime in on this topic.


TED Z

[tedzan]

One more try to elicit some more inputs here.


TED Z

[D. Bergin]

The Brits always took better care of their cards then us. In the 1990's I was buying up tons of 1920's-30's sports and non-sports sets from England and they were almost always absolutely pristine.

When we were putting our cards in bicycle spokes and playing flippsies or knockdowns, they were either putting them in the custom albums that were produced for many of the sets, or wrapping them in wax paper and putting them away.

[GasHouseGang]

I agree with Mr. Bergin. Those in the UK have simply been card collectors since the beginning. They kept EVERYTHING. I saw and bought many sets that were from the 1930's that looked untouched. I once went to a collectors house in Edinburgh, Scotland. He had been selling cigarette cards at a small show in town. He invited me to see more of what he had at his house and I bought several beautiful sets. I asked him if he had any baseball cards. He said he had his fathers old collection, but none were for sale. I asked if I could see them anyway. He brought out several Old Judge cards and some Turkey Reds, plus other tobacco cards. I wish I could give details, but I wasn't even into the old cards at the time, and I was just mesmerized. But they were definately baseball. He mentioned that his father collected for years, and he wasn't sure where these came from. Were they distributed in Scotland? Could he have been doing overseas trading? Anything is possible.

[rhettyeakley]

DR and Ted, I don't think the TM or no TM has anything to do w/ foreign or domestic distribution as I just picked up a group of 11 N162's all w/ varying degrees of back damage (*shameless plug alert* they are on ebay now so you can see scans there if you want) and they all appear to have come from the same source scrapbook. From this lower grade grouping of 11 I can see at least a spot of the TM on 5, no TM present on 3, and 3 have damage right over that area so you can't tell. So I wouldn't imagine a vintage collection having both types present if one was strictly foreign distribution.

-Rhett

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abn162ansonkelly.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


The TM on the back of the N162's is independent of where these cards were marketed. In 1991, I traveled
to New Hampshire to acquire an original set of N162's. Stamped on the back of all 50 cards (in small letters)
were the original collector's name and Danvers, Mass. Apparently, these cards were collected in 1888, and
were handed down thru the family over the years. The interesting fact about this intact collection is.....19
cards have the TM, while 31 cards do not have the TM.


TED Z