Hobby Myths Most Accept as True

[Orioles1954]

Hello there,

I thought it would be fun to start a thread about myths that most people in the hobby automatically accept as true. These can be large or small myths. Would like to read some of your perspectives.

I'll lead off. For years, it has been assumed that the 1933 Tattoo Orbit Andrews, Blaeholder and Hadley cards are shortprints. This originates from a "find" of a couple thousand cards in the 1970s where there supposedly weren't more than 25 of each of those found. Since then, the legend has circulated that these cards were somehow shortprinted. Not true. Those who have focused on that set know how available they are, and as such are often the first crossed off the wantlist. One of those "shortprints" is on ebay right now. Any others?

James

[brianp-beme]

Myth: T206 American Beauty cards are narrower because a 'thinner' cigarette pack.

Brian

[usernamealreadytaken]

Myth...Coupon and Cobb backs are T206's...

[iggyman]

T201 Dougherty/Lord is tough to find and perhaps even a short print. Now that is funny!

Lovely Day....

[Rob D.]

Myth: Back in the day, no one cared about the value of their cards.

Memorabilia myth: The 1963 All-Star Game press pin was overproduced and therefore easier to obtain than other All-Star press pins from the era.

[Abravefan11]

Myth: There are two versions of the Ritchey T206. One with Doves and one without Doves.

[iggyman]

NM.

[Rich Klein]

Jim and his sons own a string of stores in the DFW area and the Beckett magazines were solely produced to make money for those stores :)

Rich

[egbeachley]

Myth: Coupon backed T206's were correctly given their own ACC designation.

[Matt]

Myth: There are 6 horizontal cards in the T206 set.

[bcbgcbrcb]

How about the biggest myth......the T206 Wagner is so scarce because he did not mant to promote smoking cigarettes to children......

[E93]

How about the biggest myth......the T206 Wagner is so scarce because he did not mant to promote smoking cigarettes to children......

That one is corroborated by several period articles.
JimB

[fkw]

Scrapps came with tobacco (diecuts for scrapbooks, nonbaseball subjects in same series)
Cobb with Cobb back is a T206 :) (single player set)
T213-1 are a part of T206 (thin paper stock unlike all 15 others)
T206 Wagner is Rare (over 60, rare?)
E97 B&W are proofs (unknown)
Square Colgans are proofs (unknown)
Pinkerton Photo cards were issued well after T5's (postmarks prove otherwise)
W502 are strip cards (candy issue)
W555 is a strip card set (camera style candy box, end flaps)
W575-2 are handcut (boxed set)
Tangos werent known until 1992 (vintage worn examples are known)
1921 Herpolsheimers are reprints (not)
Derby Cigar cards came with Derby Cigars (unknown)
First Fleer baseball cards were in 1959 (1923)
1954 Red Heart Dog Food cards were only available in 1954 (1954-70s)
Only 2 sets of Exhibits from 1939-1966 (at least a dozen sets)
Leaf baseball was issued in 1948 (1949)

[E93]

More recent myth:
Ty Cobb backs are not T206s. :)
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

Held by some, anyway: 52 Topps Mantle is his rookie card.

[ethicsprof]

Burdick's ACC is sacrosanct and should not be reedited and ultimately revamped.

best,
barry

[4815162342]

You can buy low and sell high. :)

[egbeachley]

Myth: Coupon backed T206's were correctly given their own ACC designation.

Wait, I may need to correct my own post. The OP is asking for myths that most accept as true.

[Al C.risafulli]

1938 Goudey second series are more difficult to obtain than the first series.
Henry Johnson Confectioners cards are W575-1s.

-Al

[Fred]

N162 Dunlap showing him on Detroit.

The stereotype that all collectors are "weird" or "nerds". That only applies to the other 99% of collectors I know. :p

[FUBAR]

Not really a card, but how about Babe Ruth's "called shot" recently immortalized in Mcfarlane figurines....

[onlychild]

From the alteration side:


Cards are micro-trimmed with lasers.
Cards can be stretched.
Cards are rebacked (they are typically refronted or spliced together)

[matty39]

that Ferguson Bakery BF2s were distributed by Ferguson Bakery. The large "prize pennants" were given away as premiums by Ferguson, but there is no proof that the smaller pennants were from Ferguson.

[Browncow75]

Myth - you have to spend tens of thousands of $ to have a respectable collection in the vintage community. Maybe just my opinion, but I dont think you do!

[asoriano]

Colgan's "Proofs"

[Mark]

That one is corroborated by several period articles.
JimB

No, it's been shown that it's just a theory, a story, a myth.

[benchod]

Mark,
Wagner's own Granddaughter is qouted as saying that Wagner had the card pulled because he didn't want children to have to buy tobacco in order to get his card. What is a myth is that he was anti tobacco himself. The following is from the New York Public Library:

Distributed with Sweet Caporal Cigarettes, ca. 1909–11, the Honus Wagner baseball card is perhaps the most revered of all 20th-century baseball memorabilia, and — because only a very limited number of cards survived after Wagner caused it to be pulled from circulation — it is touted as the rarest of all baseball cards. But Wagner was no anti-smoking zealot. His granddaughter set the record straight in 1992: "He always had a wad of chewbacca in his mouth, and he wasn't against tobacco at all. His concern was he didn’t want children to have to buy tobacco in order to get his card. . . . That’s the fact behind it. It wasn’t that he didn’t get paid for it, or he was against tobacco, he just didn’t want children to have to buy tobacco at a young age in order to get his cards."

[bcornell]

Not really a card, but how about Babe Ruth's "called shot" recently immortalized in Mcfarlane figurines....

There was recently a New Yorker article profiling retiring Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens. How old is Stevens? Old enough that he was in attendance at that Cubs-Yankees WS game in 1932. He said he saw Ruth gesture to the outfield, but then misremembered where the ball was hit. Oops.

Here's the article online: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/03/22/100322fa_fact_toobin.


Bill

[mintacular]

Myth: Cards are worth Beckett book $'s...

[benchod]

Myths I remember from the 1970's and '80s were the supposed scarcity of the 1967 Topps Brooks Robinson and 1970 Topps Bench

[bcornell]

Myth: Cards are worth Beckett book $'s...

That's an easy one... any time someone quotes you 'book price', tell them "then go buy it from Beckett or SCD". I learned that line from SB1...


Bill

[batsballsbases]

Myth: Coaches Corner has the fairest prices on Mother Theresa Autographs:eek::eek: No Really.;);)

[Mark]

Mark,
Wagner's own Granddaughter is qouted as saying that Wagner had the card pulled because he didn't want children to have to buy tobacco in order to get his card. What is a myth is that he was anti tobacco himself. The following is from the New York Public Library:

Distributed with Sweet Caporal Cigarettes, ca. 1909–11, the Honus Wagner baseball card is perhaps the most revered of all 20th-century baseball memorabilia, and — because only a very limited number of cards survived after Wagner caused it to be pulled from circulation — it is touted as the rarest of all baseball cards. But Wagner was no anti-smoking zealot. His granddaughter set the record straight in 1992: "He always had a wad of chewbacca in his mouth, and he wasn't against tobacco at all. His concern was he didn’t want children to have to buy tobacco in order to get his card. . . . That’s the fact behind it. It wasn’t that he didn’t get paid for it, or he was against tobacco, he just didn’t want children to have to buy tobacco at a young age in order to get his cards."

Yes, I totally agree. I made a similar argument on the old board

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1174087349/re+Wagner+t206+theory

[Robbie]

That Shoeless Joe Jackson could not even write his name.

[sbfinley]

That the trading card business is dead or dying.

[Republicaninmass]

T3 turkey reds are 1911 (offer back proves othewise, offer ends June 30, 1911)


Funny that Wagner appears to be stuffing his mouth with Chew on his (leaf?) card!

[sreader3]

Here's my entry:

1. There is a qualitative difference between PSA/SGC cards graded "MINT" and "GEM MINT".

2. The T206 Wagner is among the rarest baseball cards.

3. Black Old Mill Southern Overprints.

[kcohen]

That completing a set is an achievement.

[Blunder19]

The holy grail, the t206 Wagner PSA 8 is not trimmed.

[timber63401]

That Mickey Mantle ever hit a ball 565 feet.

[bbcard1]

Kids have been priced out of the card market. It just failed to hold the interest of kids...many kids have more disposable income than many adults. The internet and PS and cel phones did more to take them out of the market...even in the 1980s, they didn't really want cheap cards once you got past the insanity where you could almost not open a pack and immediately sell the cards for at least a modest profit.

[Bosox Blair]

That's an easy one... any time someone quotes you 'book price', tell them "then go buy it from Beckett or SCD". I learned that line from SB1...


Bill


Bill, this is not directed at you (I don't know you), but that line has been for years my surefire dickhead detector.

If I reasonably try to talk to a seller about a card, and I put forward some indication of what similar cards have sold for elsewhere in recent times, I expect to be treated with some respect and I expect a dialogue. All too often, I get this dickhead response inviting me to go buy it from someone else...and I gladly oblige every time. Not only on that item, but on every item in the future (ie. I never do any business with anyone who feeds me that stupid line).

Now, if someone wanted to have a discussion about how they felt certain price guides were not accurate, but they had some more accurate info on recent sales, I'd be very happy to discuss that. It is the dismissiveness of saying "go buy it from X" to a prospective customer that is utterly idiotic from a person who is actually trying to sell something.

Cheers,
Blair

[bcornell]

No offense taken, Blair. I thought that snarky line was one possible reply to being quoted book prices, which are often wildly wrong. However, those prices are sometimes a starting point in a face-to-face negotiation between a buyer & seller at the National.


Bill

[Rich Klein]

Was also a favorite of mine back in the 1980's when the mid-60's tough hi numbers were priced way too low.

This would be the typical conversation:

Collector: How much do you want for the 1967 Shaw/Sutherland Card

Me: $20 (or whatever seemingly insane price I wanted)

Collector: But Beckett says it's only $7

Me: Here is the phone # to the Dallas Office, buy it from them

Collector: But the book says this.

Me: How long have you been looking for that card to finish your set

Collector: 3 years

Me: Don't you think there is a reason you have not been able to find that card then at that price

Collector: Yeah; but I still want it only for $7

Repeat conversation about 10x a show :)

Rich

[yomass]

What is the evidence that W502 is a candy issue?

What is the evidence that W575-2 was issued as a boxed set? Almost all of mine are hand cut, so how do they get that way?

[Leon]

What is the evidence that W502 is a candy issue?

What is the evidence that W575-2 was issued as a boxed set? Almost all of mine are hand cut, so how do they get that way?

I think he might have meant the W503's have been known to be a candy issue by most hobby veterans. I am not sure about anything definitive though. As for W575-2 my only source for what they are is a small strip card example....Nice thought for a thread!!

http://luckeycards.com/pw5752schedule2players001.jpg

[Bridwell]

Myths:

1. The T206 Plank is scarce because of a broken printing plate.

2. Hobby dealers are supposed to be helping out vintage collectors.

3. The T207 Lowdermilk is the 'holy grail' of that set.

4. The early hobby pioneers knew more than we know now.

Ron R

[barrysloate]

I guess I'll play too. Myths:

1) Only the biggest auction houses get top dollar for consignments. That is both an oversimplification, and a misunderstanding of how the market works. World record prices are set based on who is bidding. Often there is no rhyme or reason for why crazy prices are realized, except for who the bidders are. I had a tiny auction house with a small catalog and set many world record prices that stood for years. Was I better or worse than anyone else? I doubt it, as every auction company uses the same pool of bidders. All the great prices I achieved were solely based on who was bidding, nothing more. I've seen big auction houses get great prices, and I've seen them tank. The size of the auction house is irrelevant.

2) Something that Ichieh said on his Pete Rose thread precipated my next thought: "Dmitri Young owns the PSA 10 and he won't be selling." Ichieh, if I had a nickel for every collector who was never going to sell, and then bailed out of the hobby, I would have a very big bowl of nickels. Circumstances arise that change the course of people's lives, and many decide to sell collections they hoped to keep forever. It happens all the time.

[thekingofclout]

Amen & Amen, Barry.

[ChrisStufflestreet]

No offense taken, Blair. I thought that snarky line was one possible reply to being quoted book prices, which are often wildly wrong. However, those prices are sometimes a starting point in a face-to-face negotiation between a buyer & seller at the National.


Bill

As far as buying at shows, I have always taken the position that I decide what I want to pay. If a seller wants to bargain, that's fine, but I've always understood that it's my ultimate power to say "no, thanks" and walk to the next table.

As for the sellers who rely too much on "book" values, I've always gotten a kick out of sellers who:

#1. Don't put prices on their cards
#2. Can't tell you what the price is without consulting the Great Oracle of Beckett
#3. Pay little attention to the condition when they assign a price.

One show I attended in a local mall a few years back had one of these moments. I saw a beat-up '51 Bowman high number. It was a common but the paper had darkened, the corners were missing and several creases were evident even inside the top loader. Asking what he wanted for it, the seller took out his Beckett, looked at the listings for a minute and said, "twenty."

I thanked him for his time, but then he started saying, "But look right here!" (pointing at the guide) "This here is a $30 card!" So I took the guide, opened it to the section that explained condition...showed him that a card that rated Fair/Poor should only command about 15-25% of the value at most...but he wasn't quite so eager to follow The Book at that point.

But...I know that goes both ways. Most of the 54 guys who also sell are sure to have plenty of stories where somebody brought in a childhood collection that had been thoroughly thrashed and had calculated the Hi Beckett value of every single card before walking into the store to sell them.

[Rob D.]

High bidders "win" items in auctions.

You don't win things in auctions, you buy them. If I were the owner of an auction house (or the former owner), I would love that the idea of "winning" items has become the accepted verbiage. You might be winning the right to buy an item for your bid, but the last time I looked, if I win something, money isn't leaving my pocket.

[tbob]

Hobby myths:

1)T207 Davis with a blue C is a legitimate variation.

One exists and is a printing freak.

2)There is a P2 Mullins large letter variation pin with black cap.

It does not exist and has has incorrectly been assumed to exist for over 30 years.

[Jacklitsch]

Don't know whether it's been mentioned but as late as the 2006 Standard Catalog and maybe even later the following card has been listed but in fact does not exist:

1907 Dietsche Postcard PC-765-1 Schaefer & O'Leary two player card.

[cfc1909]

This one is real old and from Burdick himself

There is a t206 with a Hustler back. One has never showed up

Mr. Reader took my other one with the mysteriuos black bar Old Mill needed to complete your t206 back set. I loved it when I could finally with 100% certainty cross this one off my list and I admit it was on my list.

[celoknob]

Myth: Based on the prices paid for their cards--that Mickey Mantle and Nolan Ryan were vastly superior to all other players of their time.

[2dueces]

Myth. That the T206 Wagner PSA 8 was printed in 1909.

[brianp-beme]

What is the evidence that W575-2 was issued as a boxed set? Almost all of mine are hand cut, so how do they get that way?


Me too! I have a mix of both what appears to be hand cut and what is probably machine cut W575-2 cards. Is it possible that they could have been distributed both as a box set and as a strip issue? Leon's example shows me that a strip issue is not out of the question. I would also like to hear about the the box set...just never have heard the actual story behind it.

Brian

[Kawika]

Myth. That Rebel Oakes' real name is "Rehel". The Barry Sloate in me dies a little each time I see "Rehel" on a slab. Bigfish has a nice T205 Oakes on the BST right now and it looks like the mistake was made in 1911 and has been propagated for a century now. Who would name a boy Rehel anyway?

[baseballart]

Stretching my reach firmly into the border edges, http://www.baseball-reference.com lists his playing name as "Rebel". Was that not the name he played under?

Would you want to go by the name "Ennis"?

Ennis Telfair Oakes (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/oakesre01.shtml)