w600 vs e107

[Bicem]

So the gorgeous w600 Matty just sold in REA for $35k.

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/images_items/Item_13216_1.jpg

This also very nice e107 Matty sold in 2008 Mastro for $120k.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotImages/53/82248a_lg.jpeg

So I guess my question is... why is the demand (and thus price) for the e107 so much higher? The cards are very similar looking, I believe issued around the same time, and rarity I think is comparable. Thoughts?

[bijoem]

the e107 is a card.
the w600 is not.


cards are more sought after than non-cards. :)

[Wesley]

In addition to the W600 not being a card, it is also large and cumbersome. The hobby usually frowns on larger than standard size pieces. You know, Jeff, like postcards.

[Leon]

Demand



There are more folks that are going for a set of E107's, understanding no full sets are known, than W600s. (demand)

[andybecker]

i would take a cabinet over a card.....but that's me.

leon, as usual, is correct econ101.....

[Bicem]

I undertand that obviously demand is higher and thus price is higher... was trying to dive into the reasons WHY demand is higher (ie people trying to build a complete e107 set as Leon mentioned).

[docpatlv]

Jeff,

I think some people just prefer cards and their definition of what constitutes a card is limiting to exclude things such as premiums, postcards, cabinets, etc. I like cards, but I more actively collect PC's, supplements, pinbacks, silks, stamps, etc.

I guess it's good in a way that many collectors don't consider PCs cards or they would be driving up the prices on those as well.

If I had to choose one of the Mattys (without taking into account the value), I would easily choose the W600.

Mike

[Steve D]

My first thought before seeing any of the responses was the same as bijoem and Wesley.....card vs non-card. Then I started wondering why if that's the case, are T3s worth so much more than their corresponding T206s.

Supply vs demand then comes into play. T206s are far and away the most common pre-WWII cards in existence, so their prices can't really be compared equally to some of the other cards. T3s, while certainly not rare or scarce, are found in much smaller quantities than T206s, simply by nature of the redemption process. T3s are also arguably the most beautiful baseball "cards" ever produced.

I think that's where we come to with E107 vs W600. Certainly, the card vs non-card sentiment is a large factor. But it must be combined with supply vs demand. Both sets are rare, maybe not equally, but arguably the rarity factor is similar with both sets. Given that similarity in the rareness factor, the card vs non-card sentiment comes more into play.

One must also consider the set collectors. While the E107 set is inarguably nearly impossible to complete, it is far smaller (150 cards), and one could argue easier to complete relative to the W600 set (~720 photos).

So I think there you have it.....

a. The card vs non-card sentiment
b. Rareness factor is similar
c. Collectors trying to complete the set

One last factor to consider is card condition. E107s are nearly always found in less-than VG shape. An E107 in VG or above is practically unheard of. W600s on the other hand, are often found in beautiful condition. While the E107 Matty in the OP is in SGC 20 condition, it "presents" itself in far better condition. There are none of the usual creases or stains that are so often seen on cards in the set. The high price it sold for is surely a result of the card looking far better than its assigned grade.


Steve

[bcbgcbrcb]

E107 - The first true baseball card of the 20th Century plus much scarcer than the W600's = much higher prices............

[sox1903wschamp]

E107 - The first true baseball card of the 20th Century plus much scarcer than the W600's = much higher prices............

I don't know about much scarcer but I think they are scarcer. I have seen more W600's in the last couple of decades. And they do have the added attraction of being the first true card after a drought of sorts from the end of 19th Century.

[Bicem]

e107's would be scarcer since w600's were produced over a number of years. However, if you just compare the early "Street Clothes" w600's, like the Matty above, I would suspect that they are just as rare, if not more so, than e107's.

[terjung]

I think W600 vs. E107 is a great example for comparison. The photos are both B&W and in many cases are the same. Though I am primarily an E107 guy, I also admire the W600 set now that I have owned one and have developed a new-found appreciation for them. Perhaps that is what has happened… people have overlooked them due to their size. Since they are so rare (and so big) people don’t pay as much attention to them as they do T3s because there aren’t as many of them around.

Both sets are quite beautiful, imo. I am a bigger fan of E107s for a few reasons. Among them is that there is no debate as to whether E107s are cards or not. There is little debate as to when they were issued (though it carried over into a second year as evidenced by team name changes) and they are widely regarded as the first set of the 20th century. Given that so few sets are around it (time wise), the player selection is fantastic and the only place to find such a 19th c to 20th c transition.

Both sets have a similar supply (population-wise) at least of HOFers, but I haven’t researched the W600s so I can’t truly speak to how plentiful (or not) they are. They may actually be more scarce than E107s. I would imagine that the commons are more scarce, but I’ll touch on that in a minute. So, for arguments sake, let’s say that they have a similar supply in that one isn’t grossly more plentiful than the other. None of us needs a refresher course in econ, so the price difference comes down to the demand and why there is so much more demand for one over the other. A few of these items have already been documented previously (size and debate as to whether they can be accepted as a “card”). There are a couple other factors that play into the demand as well.

The first is related to the time in which they were issued. As stated previously, E107s are perceived to be limited to 1903 and 1904. The W600s were issued over a much larger period of time and while that may not matter to some, it affects those who are trying to get the “earliest known rookie issue” of a player. I’m sure that some discount them because of the 1902-1908 range in which they were issued. Advertising pieces have narrowed “which ones were offered when” and the type of mount also sheds some light on the dates they were issued, but in some cases, it is still a wide range. This may remove them from the “RC” discussion in some people’s eyes since some particular W600s could have been available before and/or after the E107 and others only after. This too would tend to hurt demand for W600s.

It would be interesting if the ACC #s varied with their mounts. Perhaps, that would have placed more emphasis and significance on the early ones, and thereby increased demand for those (ie. made them more valuable). Perhaps as people learn more about the differences, the value of the early ones will skyrocket like the E107s did a few years ago. Alternatively, if a prominent and well-funded collector decides that they are worth a ton and decides to hoard them at all costs, then others may start to look at them differently too.

In general, though, with pre-war vintage, part of demand comes from mystique. Case in point, T206 Wagner. Why is the demand for it so high when it isn’t his rookie or anywhere close to his rarest card? Mystique. I think I could argue that if the Wagner never existed, the T206 set would not be as popular as it is today. I think in some ways, the two need each other. Regardless, there is little mystique associated with the W600 set.

It’s tough that the answer to your question is an intangible, but such is life when considering demand. People want E107s because other people want them, and thus they are placed on a pedestal of sorts. W600s are not placed on the same pedestal. Having a monster trade like happened a couple years ago only added to the mystique of E107s. “Somebody traded away what for those?” Perhaps a future trade similar to that one, but centering around W600s would do the same for that issue.

Another item that may play into it as well is that W600s were premiums and were not a standard issued card. Since they were a premium and one could pick the player they wanted, why would someone choose a “common” when they could choose a Wagner, Young, Matty, Lajoie? Granted, today’s view of players doesn’t necessarily mirror the views of that day, but they knew who the special players were. This would result in fewer “commons” being issued and fewer “commons” surviving to this day. In the absence of more “commons”, those cards are less collectable and, in fact, may have never even been released despite being on some sort of monster checklist of cards that were potentially available. That hurts the set’s ability to be collected and that hurts demand. So, the fact that they are a premium may also factor into it as well.

Finally, some type collectors focus on getting one of every kind of card, yet other type collectors do not chase a W600 cabinet for their collection for one reason or another. This too decreases demand. That’s enough for now…

[Baseball Rarities]

It is hard to say which cards are scarcer. Some W600s are much more scarce than others. In fact, there are hundreds of subjects that are checklisted, but are not known to exist.

They were premiums, so customers were able to choose which player they wanted. Obviously the stars of the day were much more popular than the third string second baseman. Some players are known in relatively large quantities, some only a single example survives and, as mentioned before, there are many subject that have not been found yet.

While all E107s do not exist in the same quantities, there are multiple copies of all 150 players known to exist. I am not sure the surviving quantities of some of the team variations. Hopefully Scott B will chime in.

[Epps]

[QUOTE]Having a monster trade like happened a couple years ago only added to the mystique of E107s. “Somebody traded away what for those?”/QUOTE]

What was traded?

[bijoem]

In addition to the W600 not being a card, it is also large and cumbersome. The hobby usually frowns on larger than standard size pieces. You know, Jeff, like postcards.

I agree with Wes.
Postcards suck.

not even something to consider collecting.

[terjung]

That E107 Matty makes me drool every time I see it. Great card, whosever it is.

[Steve D]

I just got a Heritage Auctions flyer in the mail, and in it they indicate they will have an E107 Matty (estimate $100K+) in their National Convention auction in August.

Steve