View Full Version : Cobb/Cobb card in Goodwin Auction
Though it is a half-grade less than the Cobb/Cobb in the REA auction, I feel the one in the Goodwin auction presents much nicer. That being said, with buyer's premium it is already over $135,000 and the auction's still running. Has this card broken out of all previous price points or is this a registry battle that we see on occasion? (see the PSA 7 Lundgren in the last SCP for an example of what I mean) Is this similar to what we saw a few years ago when major separation developed between Planks and Magies? Like Wagners, will we never see this card for under $100k again?
I'm intrigued that the Cobb/Cobb seems to have broken out to a new price level, and no one has anything to say about it. In 2005, Wagners of any grade eclipsed $100k, and then their price appreciation accelerated at an astronomical rate. In just five years, the price of Wagners tripled. In 2015, may we see $250-300k as the base price for a Cobb/Cobb?
teetwoohsix
04-24-2010, 04:14 PM
I don't know which way to look at it-are serious collectors bidding it up that high because of the true rarity of the card and they want to add it to their collection,or is it seeing this type of escalated bidding due to the # of "investors" who only care about the card for the potential return 2-5 years from now?
Clayton
ChiefBenderForever
04-24-2010, 04:43 PM
I thought they slightly overpaid about 100k or more.
I feel like it was an overpayment as well BUT in a couple of years might this look like a hell of a steal? Cobb/Cobb is far more rare than Wagner after all...
Chicago206
04-24-2010, 05:31 PM
I feel like it was an overpayment as well BUT in a couple of years might this look like a hell of a steal? Cobb/Cobb is far more rare than Wagner after all...
Rarity is just one part of the magical value equation!
Steve D
04-24-2010, 07:16 PM
and $695 for a PSA 4 Shag Shaughnessy! :eek:
Steve
I think Larry's PSA 4 Shag sold for $800 on BST here, so that price isn't unprecedented.
Potomac Yank
04-24-2010, 08:02 PM
I don't know which way to look at it-are serious collectors bidding it up that high because of the true rarity of the card and they want to add it to their collection,or is it seeing this type of escalated bidding due to the # of "investors" who only care about the card for the potential return 2-5 years from now?
Clayton
*
After a while, it's easy to tell the difference between a collector, and a portfolio flipper. :)
The key words are:
Registry.
Half- grade.
Crossover. ... (not to be confused with Passover)
Value equation.
Investment.
Rare. ... (the word has lost its meaning)
SCP.
PSA - SGC - GAI.
That's just a start, I'm sure you can add more.
Notice, they rarely talk about the card ... It's always about the Munee. :)
Now ... In what group does JP, and a few others fit in?
Actually, my entire point was about the card and its transcedence. Not a single word I wrote has to do with flipping...but I appreciate you once again pulling something irrelevant out of thin air. I think collectors may finally be appreciating the true signficance of this card to the hobby.
Furthermore, how is my speculation of reasons why OTHERS may spend so much on a card (financial interest included) any reflection on me? I didn't buy that Cobb. I rarely bUy a card with interest in selling it years from now. I either try to find a card to flip immediately to fund a purchase for my long-term collection, or I buy a card with the intent of hiding it away for decades.
Potomac Yank
04-24-2010, 08:24 PM
None of us are able to read .....
It was all about the card. :)
You may want new reading glasses old-timer. :) The ones you're wearing are making you read too much into things. My post was, in fact, all about the card, just like the thread title.
lharri3600
04-24-2010, 08:40 PM
The shag i sold was psa 5 old mill
i think larry's psa 4 shag sold for $800 on bst here, so that price isn't unprecedented.
ChiefBenderForever
04-24-2010, 08:43 PM
If this one sold for 135k then the one in REA should sell for about 260k
The shag i sold was psa 5 old mill
And it was a beaut too, Larry! I'm glad I said "think" instead of "know." :)
If this one sold for 135k then the one in REA should sell for about 260k
Only if grade is the deciding factor. That Goodwin Cobb/Cobb presented WAY better in my opinion. Perfect centering, beautiful registration...
ChiefBenderForever
04-24-2010, 09:09 PM
I agree JP but who is gonna look at the front.
Potomac Yank
04-24-2010, 09:13 PM
You may want new reading glasses old-timer. :) The ones you're wearing are making you read too much into things. My post was, in fact, all about the card, just like the thread title.
*
Munee was never indicated in any single one of your post.
*
*
*
Tell us JP, how long have you been feeling this way? :)
I agree JP but who is gonna look at the front.
Ha! I love it...my favorite post of the day, Johnny! ;)
Tell us JP, how long have you been feeling this way? :)
How long have I been feeling that the Cobb/Cobb has transcended its old price points? I guess about 48 hours now. Everytime I see one of your posts, I look for a decoder ring. I know they are supposed to be humorous, I just don't always get them...
Potomac Yank
04-24-2010, 09:58 PM
How long have I been feeling that the Cobb/Cobb has transcended its old price points? I guess about 48 hours now. Everytime I see one of your posts, I look for a decoder ring. I know they are supposed to be humorous, I just don't always get them...
*
Every single thread, or post that you've been involved in since you arrived on this forum ... is about MUNEE.
I know that to some, this is difficult to accept, but this forum was originally a vintage card forum, and not the Wall Street Journal.
All I'm saying is that this forum is drifting more, and more away from the actual vintage card topics.
It makes collectors want to look for a real VINTAGE forum.
If that's what Leon wants ... that's what he 's going to get.
JP, you don't need a decoder ring ... you need a course in English comprehension. :)
Ah, you're finally typing in English...much easier to read. I've been here for 3 or 4 years, and not every post has been about money.
Money in many ways drives the growth of interest in the hobby...it makes headlines. Just because I talk about the price of the Cobb/Cobb doesn't make the hobby all about money for me. Money, in this case, is a very relevant thing to talk about as we just saw an unprecedented price for a card. That in itself should spark some interesting conversation about THE CARD itself.
frankb22
04-24-2010, 10:20 PM
I for one have grown increasingly skeptical of Goodwin auctions. A few auctions back they had t206 lower level HOFers in psa9 going for close to
50k. Either they have the greatest customer base in the universe or
something is not kosher.
Also, Joe P., there is no need to be a fatalist. This board isn't dying. And you don't need to take your ball and play elsewhere. There's plenty of room here to talk about everything.
Chicago206
04-24-2010, 10:25 PM
I see nothing wrong with this posting. It IS about the "munee" in this case. And like it or not Joe, "munee" is a KEY ingredient to the hobby. If you want a hobby that doesnt have such a focus on the "munee", then why dont you start a collection of washers.
Watch it, Chicago, Joe's spelling is "cuntayjus"!
Potomac Yank
04-24-2010, 10:43 PM
It had to be something that didn't go down well with someone in a higher place. :)
I can speak in two, or three languages, but this guy wouldn't get it in any of them.
Most of the current newbies have their eyes on the ball, but there must have been a forum that did a little house cleaning, because you have a couple that just plain don't want to get it.
Leon, whatever you did ... beg for forgiveness ... or you gonna end up with the Wall Street Journal. :)
Chicago206
04-24-2010, 11:05 PM
It had to be something that didn't go down well with someone in a higher place. :)
I can speak in two, or three languages, but this guy wouldn't get it in any of them.
Most of the current newbies have their eyes on the ball, but there must have been a forum that did a little house cleaning, because you have a couple that just plain don't want to get it.
Leon, whatever you did ... beg for forgiveness ... or you gonna end up with the Wall Street Journal. :)
Wall Street Journal? Its completely impossible to make a total seperation of cards and money Joe. Especially at the level of some of the collections here! There are plenty of hobbies that you can enjoy without worrying about dollars. I hear beanie babies are basically worthless, as are pogs, washers (as I recommended earlier), and possibly postcards or matchbooks. If you really want a "financial disconnect" in a hobby, why dont you try one of the above suggestions? But when a piece of cardboard sells for 6 figures, its IMPOSSIBLE to not discuss the financial aspect of it!
Potomac Yank
04-25-2010, 01:51 AM
Wall Street Journal? Its completely impossible to make a total seperation of cards and money Joe. Especially at the level of some of the collections here! There are plenty of hobbies that you can enjoy without worrying about dollars. I hear beanie babies are basically worthless, as are pogs, washers (as I recommended earlier), and possibly postcards or matchbooks. If you really want a "financial disconnect" in a hobby, why dont you try one of the above suggestions? But when a piece of cardboard sells for 6 figures, its IMPOSSIBLE to not discuss the financial aspect of it!
*
To the Flipper Twins:
Please don't think that I'm one of the thin skins on this forum, because if you do, you will be making another one of your mistakes.
Let me start with the sonny boy from the Second City.
Lad, I've handled more high ended cards before you were out of diapers, and discovered the T206 set.
If you doubt that, just ask Lew Lipset, Mark Macrae, Leon's partner Scott Brockelman, Dan MaKee and Jim Rivera.
One of your post was about you going to a big show that had 150 tables.
Lad, I don't know how to break this to you .....
Back in the mid '80's thru the '90's, I would select a weekend and fly out of the Big Apple to a show ... let's say the West Coast ... I would fly out say on a Thursday to Long Beach, and then fly out to a Lee show in San Fran on Friday night.
Each show had anywhere between 600 to 1000 tables.
Lots of cards .. lots of choices .. lots to learn about them .. lots of dealers .. much to learn about them, and visa versa .. lots of cardoholics .. much to learn from each other.
It was at a Lee show in San Fran, that I picked up one of my biggest finds, just before I rushed out to the airport to catch my flight to NYC.
I'll spare you all the details, but I'll tell that it was an old box of chocolates, filled with over 800 of the nicest grade T's that I ever seen.
I had been working on a T206 set of whatever grades.
That box of better grade T206 & T205's, forced me to work on two sets.
The Beater, and the Better set.
I only need one to complete the better, and eight for full completion of the beater.
JP ..... you're almost a mirror image of the Second City Kid, but not quite. :)
From what I've heard, and listened to what's coming from the mouth of The Flipper Twins ... they are not dummies But ... they're trying awfully hard to be. :)
If they listened more, and talked less ... they might become usefull contributers to the community.
There's nothing wrong with being a Flipper, my problem with them is that they don't have the cojones to acknowledge the fact ... They are what they are.
Oh yes, before I forget .....
On two occasions I happened to stand up, and defend The Second City Kid when he was being jumped by the inhabitants of Slab Haven.
I now want to apologize to the warm, and kind inhabitants of Slab Haven for my thoughtless action.
There, I said it ... Carry on! :)
Chicago206
04-25-2010, 03:34 AM
*
To the Flipper Twins:
Please don't think that I'm one of the thin skins on this forum, because if you do, you will be making another one of your mistakes.
Let me start with the sonny boy from the Second City.
Lad, I've handled more high ended cards before you were out of diapers, and discovered the T206 set.
If you doubt that, just ask Lew Lipset, Mark Macrae, Leon's partner Scott Brockelman, Dan MaKee and Jim Rivera.
One of your post was about you going to a big show that had 150 tables.
Lad, I don't know how to break this to you .....
Back in the mid '80's thru the '90's, I would select a weekend and fly out of the Big Apple to a show ... let's say the West Coast ... I would fly out say on a Thursday to Long Beach, and then fly out to a Lee show in San Fran on Friday night.
Each show had anywhere between 600 to 1000 tables.
Lots of cards .. lots of choices .. lots to learn about them .. lots of dealers .. much to learn about them, and visa versa .. lots of cardoholics .. much to learn from each other.
It was at a Lee show in San Fran, that I picked up one of my biggest finds, just before I rushed out to the airport to catch my flight to NYC.
I'll spare you all the details, but I'll tell that it was an old box of chocolates, filled with over 800 of the nicest grade T's that I ever seen.
I had been working on a T206 set of whatever grades.
That box of better grade T206 & T205's, forced me to work on two sets.
The Beater, and the Better set.
I only need one to complete the better, and eight for full completion of the beater.
JP ..... you're almost a mirror image of the Second City Kid, but not quite. :)
From what I've heard, and listened to what's coming from the mouth of The Flipper Twins ... they are not dummies But ... they're trying awfully hard to be. :)
If they listened more, and talked less ... they might become usefull contributers to the community.
There's nothing wrong with being a Flipper, my problem with them is that they don't have the cojones to acknowledge the fact ... They are what they are.
Oh yes, before I forget .....
On two occasions I happened to stand up, and defend The Second City Kid when he was being jumped by the inhabitants of Slab Haven.
I now want to apologize to the warm, and kind inhabitants of Slab Haven for my thoughtless action.
There, I said it ... Carry on! :)
Im not here to "buddy up" with you Joe. This isnt Survivor where I feel compelled to form "alliances". You stood up for me because you thought you were right. I stated my thoughts on the financial aspect of the hobby because I feel im right. Futhermore, I never said I attended a "big show with 150 tables". I said it was a "big show with 150 DEALERS". Big difference there, and 150 dealers is a BIG show by anyone's standards.
Now lets delve into the affectionate term you use to describe me...flipper. My working definition of a "flipper" is one who is primarily interested in the short term profitability of a given area. Because I made a zero financial gain in the selling off of most of my cards, I cannot be classified as a "flipper" by MY definition. I simply redirected my area of focus, and shed off some items that no longer fit my plan. If thats considered being a "flipper", then I suppose the term can easily be applied to most members here, as im sure most members here have sold a card or two.
I have no problem with your other term of endearment for me....Second City Kid has a lovely ring to it! In fact, I respectfully request that you continue to call me that in all subsequent writings to me. However, although I am towards the younger spectrum on this forum (im 35), I wouldnt exactly classify that as being a "kid". But then again, I look at 18-19 year olds as "kids", so thats simply a matter of perspective I suppose.
Bicem
04-25-2010, 06:38 AM
the Cobb price is interesting, and I'm very curious as to what the REA Cobb will now sell for... but what a terrible thread this has become.
Jim VB
04-25-2010, 06:41 AM
the Cobb price is interesting, and I'm very curious as to what the REA Cobb will now sell for... but what a terrible thread this has become.
Agreed. The original post was fine, but it went downhill so fast I no longer know who to root for.
Indeed...yet another derailed thread.
Ignoring completely Joe P.'s rant and Chicago's falling-on-deaf-ears defense...
I would be VERY surprised if the REA Cobb passed Goodwin's. Something about the crease at the bottom of the REA Cobb is visually distracting...
teetwoohsix
04-25-2010, 09:30 AM
Just wanted to say,after reading this thread this morning,I was pretty shocked to see where it went!!And my question,which I felt was legit,may have spiraled the thread.I wasn't trying to accuse anyone of anything,just was expressing my thoughts on why this card would be reaching such insane prices all of a sudden.
I don't feel I can apologize for asking a legit question,or for what anyone else says,but just want to be clear that my intentions with my question were not to spiral the thread!!!
Sincerely,Clayton
Clayton, I thought your post was great! Not sure why it sparked Joe P.'s finger pointing rant, but it expressed exactly some of the thoughts I was having. I wonder if the winner will ever become known. THAT would likely lead to some answers as to whether it is going to be socked away for a long-time or turned in a few years...
Bicem
04-25-2010, 10:05 AM
not your fault at all Clayton, it was a good question.
teetwoohsix
04-25-2010, 10:18 AM
Thanks guys-I appreciate that!!;)
M's_Fan
04-25-2010, 10:27 AM
With apologies to the drama queens, this post is actually about cards:
I would not put the Cobb/Cobb in the Wagner class, or even in the Plank class, simply because it is the back alone that makes this card. You can complete a basic 526 card T206 set without the Cobb/Cobb, but you can't complete it without the Wagner or Plank.
Rare back collectors will always love this card, but they are a sub-set of the collector population. Collectors like me will look at this card and admire it, and then buy one with a less rare back for a fraction of the price and take that $50k and buy a bunch of other great cards.
So I think this puts a ceiling on the value and popularity of the Cobb/Cobb.
Jim VB
04-25-2010, 10:58 AM
You can complete a basic 526 card T206 set without the Cobb/Cobb, but you can't complete it without the Wagner or Plank.
Agreed. Except for that part about "526."
As Gary Coleman would have said... "Watchoo talkin' bout Willis???"
Seriously, you meant 524, right? Please.
M's_Fan
04-25-2010, 12:56 PM
Agreed. Except for that part about "526."
As Gary Coleman would have said... "Watchoo talkin' bout Willis???"
Seroiusly, you meant 524, right? Please.
Yes, typo, 524.
I was a little surprised, but not shocked by the price. I think the card has been undervalued for a long time. It is a premier card in the hobby and has been for a long time. It is from the premier pre-war set and depicts one who is arguably the best player of all-time. Its rarity is legendary (4x-5x rarer than the Wagner). It would not surprise me if there is a time in the near future (or recent past) when this card cannot be gotten for less than 100k in any condition.
JimB
P.S. I would be a lot more comfortable being the second person to pay over 100k for the card than the first. The next time it happens, be that REA or whenever, it establishes a new price point, if it has not already.
JimB
three25hits
04-25-2010, 01:34 PM
It makes collectors want to look for a real VINTAGE forum.
Civility is as rare as a Cobb back.
calvindog
04-25-2010, 01:35 PM
I think the price was insane actually. Great card no doubt but when you consider that the Boston Garter Cobb went for 100 K, the Cobb/Cobb price from last night looks even stupider. And while cards often go up in value quickly (T206 Wanger for example), they don't go up 200% in one auction.
Sounds like the finishing price of REA's Cobb will really dictate whether this card has hit a new level...or whether someone just had to have that particular card in Goodwin's.
wonkaticket
04-25-2010, 01:56 PM
Hmmm I'm joning team Lichtman on Goodwin prices that make you go hmmm...
135k for that Cobb is very odd when a much nicer example is around the mid 40's right now...
Also PSA 3 American Beauty's in goodwin pulling $300+ when PSA 5 on ebay this week have gone cheaper heck even a 6 on ebay only went $130 or so more than Goodwins's PSA 3's?
Then you have the AUTH Sid Smith Brown Old Mill card which for 90% of the auction wasn't even listed as a "Brown" Old Mill card but just an AUTH Southern League card. That in it self is odd or sad Goodwin has a back set for sale in his auction in which Goodwin goes into detail about how tough Brown Old Mill's and Lenox cards are to find. Apparently they are very tough to find so tough in fact they may be for sale in your auction and you wouldn't even know. :)
Yet when the lot was corrected with less than a week to go it somehow pulled nice $$.
I can't say something is going on just looking at numbers and circumstances.
But I will say that if I you ever consign use Goodwin somehow he manages to get huge prices and get collectors to pay double and sometimes 5X what items are worth or have sold for how does he do it? :confused:
cfc1909
04-25-2010, 02:09 PM
how about the Piedmont factory 42s
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=13943&searchby=3&searchvalue=piedmont 42&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=14059&searchby=3&searchvalue=piedmont 42&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1
there was a SGC 60 Elberfeld Piedmont 42 in Huggins that went for $450 plus juice in their last auction
not sure what to make of these prices but I guess I better consign to Goodwin next auction.
teetwoohsix
04-25-2010, 02:20 PM
Dang-that Rucker Piedmont 42 went for some bucks...........
Jim, then this should go for $10k!
http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-Frank-Smith-Chicago-Boston-PSA-5-w-Factory-42-/160425273266?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Baseball&hash=item255a1767b2#ht_1140wt_948
sox1903wschamp
04-25-2010, 02:33 PM
Wow, the prices on the backs of these cards amaze me. I think they are neat and there certaintly is a huge market for them :)
Mikehealer
04-25-2010, 04:02 PM
how about the Piedmont factory 42s
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=13943&searchby=3&searchvalue=piedmont 42&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=14059&searchby=3&searchvalue=piedmont 42&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1
there was a SGC 60 Elberfeld Piedmont 42 in Huggins that went for $450 plus juice in their last auction
not sure what to make of these prices but I guess I better consign to Goodwin next auction.
I was watching those lots in Goodwin as well as the one in Huggins. It looks like the Huggins lot was a bargain.
Steve D
04-25-2010, 04:42 PM
OK, in an attempt to get back to the Cobb/Cobb.....
One aspect of the Goodwin Cobb that seems to have been missed here is the fact that this one appears to be only the third example to not have a glossy surface (out of ~15 total examples known of the Cobb/Cobb back.
So.....~12 copies with a glossy surface - 3 copies without a glossy surface.
Could the price for the Goodwin example be due to the lack of the glossy surface?
And could we be seeing a differentiation price-wise between the two variations?
Just something to think about.
Edited to add that the Goodwin example has what I believe is the best surface condition of any example I can remember seeing. The blood-red background is immaculate! The only "problems" with the card are the four corners, and perhaps extremely slight registration issues with Cobb's image. I can't remember seeing any example of the Cobb/Cobb back that didn't have some creasing or general surface damage/wear. This by itself, could be another reason for a higher-than-normal bid. Put this together with the rarity of the non-glossy surface.....
Steve
Abravefan11
04-25-2010, 04:53 PM
Could the price for the Goodwin example be due to the lack of the glossy surface?
Steve
Given the number of other lots with prices that seem exceedingly high it's too difficult to say.
I think it would be easier to give credit to the lack of gloss had this price been realized in another auction.
It is absurd to compare the price of REA's at this point (6 days before the completion of the auction) to Goodwin's final price. Goodwin's was at 35K plus the juice the night before the auction ended.
Rob D.
04-25-2010, 04:55 PM
Hmmm I'm joning team Lichtman on Goodwin prices that make you go hmmm...
135k for that Cobb is very odd when a much nicer example is around the mid 40's right now...
Also PSA 3 American Beauty's in goodwin pulling $300+ when PSA 5 on ebay this week have gone cheaper heck even a 6 on ebay only went $130 or so more than Goodwins's PSA 3's?
Then you have the AUTH Sid Smith Brown Old Mill card which for 90% of the auction wasn't even listed as a "Brown" Old Mill card but just an AUTH Southern League card. That in it self is odd or sad Goodwin has a back set for sale in his auction in which Goodwin goes into detail about how tough Brown Old Mill's and Lenox cards are to find. Apparently they are very tough to find so tough in fact they may be for sale in your auction and you wouldn't even know. :)
Yet when the lot was corrected with less than a week to go it somehow pulled nice $$.
I can't say something is going on just looking at numbers and circumstances.
But I will say that if I you ever consign use Goodwin somehow he manages to get huge prices and get collectors to pay double and sometimes 5X what items are worth or have sold for how does he do it? :confused:
Careful, careful. You don't want to be labeled a conspiracy theorist.
forazzurri2axz
04-25-2010, 05:31 PM
for you Goodwin bashers with plenty of time on your hands, were you aware that most of the American Beauty cards were the AB 460 and not the AB 350 of either type???....
And that many of those AB 460's were not only the highest graded since PSA started identifying the backs , but in some cases the ONLY one ever graded....
And in the recent threads here about back scarcity no one disagreeed with the #9 ranking of that back---that is higher than Carolina Brights OR Hindu Brown according to several of the back experts (I am not one of them)
And finally, I was either the underbidder or darn close to it on almost all the AB auctions--last time I checked I was not a shill for Bill
Too many people here jump to conclusions a little too quickly when it comes to his acutions IMHO
cheers Bill Latzko
FUBAR
04-25-2010, 05:44 PM
It only takes two guys with too much money to escalate a card to beyond an acceptable level. Sad part is, we will all pay indirectly in the future. It saddens me when rich folk create a market the average Joe can no longer afford to play in.
If i ever struck it rich, i could have seen myself shelling out 15k for a nice example but justifying 150k, id need to beat myself with a hammer to think this was a good idea.
Peter_Spaeth
04-25-2010, 05:55 PM
This is the genius of the auction system. As Mastro is quoted as saying in Mint Condition, put two guys head to head and let them beat the bleep out of each other.
calvindog
04-25-2010, 06:35 PM
Or put one guy up against Bill Mastro's computer. Either way.
whitehse
04-25-2010, 06:42 PM
Or put one guy up against Bill Mastro's computer. Either way.
D'oh!!
vintagewhitesox
04-25-2010, 09:43 PM
I was a little surprised, but not shocked by the price. I think the card has been undervalued for a long time. It is a premier card in the hobby and has been for a long time. It is from the premier pre-war set and depicts one who is arguably the best player of all-time. Its rarity is legendary (4x-5x rarer than the Wagner). It would not surprise me if there is a time in the near future (or recent past) when this card cannot be gotten for less than 100k in any condition.
JimB
Great point Jim, I think within the next year this card won't sell for below the 100k level. Great card, and definitely one of the top cards in the hobby.
Steve D
04-25-2010, 09:57 PM
I was a little surprised, but not shocked by the price. I think the card has been undervalued for a long time. It is a premier card in the hobby and has been for a long time. It is from the premier pre-war set and depicts one who is arguably the best player of all-time. Its rarity is legendary (4x-5x rarer than the Wagner). It would not surprise me if there is a time in the near future (or recent past) when this card cannot be gotten for less than 100k in any condition.
JimB
Call me a naysayer, but I just don't see it. Even if it's considered part of the T206 set (which has been debated), the Cobb/Cobb back is still not required for set completion, whereas the Wagner, Plank, Magie and Doyle (NY, Natl) are.
The Cobb/Cobb back is more of a "niche" card. Really, only die-hard Cobb and T206 back collectors are interested in it. Everyone else, while I'm sure wouldn't mind owning one, can pretty much live without it.
Steve
So, there is only fifteen known cards of the Cobb/Cobb?
So, there is only fifteen known cards of the Cobb/Cobb?
I believe there are 14 known and one unverified.
JimB
The Cobb/Cobb back is more of a "niche" card. Really, only die-hard Cobb and T206 back collectors are interested in it. Everyone else, while I'm sure wouldn't mind owning one, can pretty much live without it.
Steve
I respectfully disagree. I very much doubt that all 14 reside in the collections of T206 back collectors and/or Cobb collectors. I think that type of premier level card in the hobby is desirable to most collectors of pre-war cards that can afford it, regardless of whether or not they have a Drum or Uzit, or a huge run of Cobb cards.
JimB
P.S. I actually know where eight of them are and four of the eight are neither T206 back collectors, nor Cobb collectors.
barrysloate
04-26-2010, 04:48 AM
No matter which side of the debate you are on regarding the Cobb with Cobb back, one thing that is undeniable is it is a great baseball card rarity. If it has in fact become the next six figure card, it is because of its incredible demand and very high profile. Maybe some owners are adding it to their T206 back sets, and maybe some don't even collect T206. Doesn't matter any more, it's now attained the status of one of the great vintage baseball cards, and always will be.
tedzan
04-26-2010, 06:30 AM
having seen it at the March Philly Show, I was stunned at the price it sold for. Obviously, it's not one of the better examples
of this very rare/very high demand "T206" type card, so this sale has set a new precedent for future scenarios of this card. I
anticipate more Ty Cobb back cards will now come out of the woodwork....both REAL and professionally FAKED ones. It begs
this question.....will the Professional Grader's be able to tell the difference ? ?
TED Z
Peter_Spaeth
04-26-2010, 07:13 AM
There have been aberrational auction prices before, so I think the jury is still out on the Cobb/Cobb.
chiprop
04-26-2010, 07:50 AM
Ted - I got to handle the Goodwinn example at the Chicago show. Although the cobb/cobb in Goodwin may have been graded a 1.5, it presented in VG. It is one of the nicer examples I have seen.
Bicem
04-26-2010, 08:09 AM
scans for comparison (although the Goodwin scan is not very good)
Goodwin...
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotImages/16/Lot1a_med.jpeghttp://www.goodwinandco.com/LotImages/16/Lot1b_med.jpeg
REA...
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/images_items/Item_13091_1.jpghttp://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/images_items/Item_13091_2.jpg
ethicsprof
04-26-2010, 11:01 AM
With Barry S., the Cobb/ Cobb is an exceptional beauty which is finally getting its due!!
i am most pleased to see this.
a T206 rarity,indeed!
congrats JimB and the other 14 lucky ones.
best,
barry
onlychild
04-26-2010, 12:00 PM
Hmmm I'm joning team Lichtman on Goodwin prices that make you go hmmm...
135k for that Cobb is very odd when a much nicer example is around the mid 40's right now...
Also PSA 3 American Beauty's in goodwin pulling $300+ when PSA 5 on ebay this week have gone cheaper heck even a 6 on ebay only went $130 or so more than Goodwins's PSA 3's?
Then you have the AUTH Sid Smith Brown Old Mill card which for 90% of the auction wasn't even listed as a "Brown" Old Mill card but just an AUTH Southern League card. That in it self is odd or sad Goodwin has a back set for sale in his auction in which Goodwin goes into detail about how tough Brown Old Mill's and Lenox cards are to find. Apparently they are very tough to find so tough in fact they may be for sale in your auction and you wouldn't even know.
Yet when the lot was corrected with less than a week to go it somehow pulled nice $$.
I can't say something is going on just looking at numbers and circumstances.
But I will say that if I you ever consign use Goodwin somehow he manages to get huge prices and get collectors to pay double and sometimes 5X what items are worth or have sold for how does he do it?
Put me on the same team.
Also, I am certainly no Cobb expert and have especially limited knowledge on the Cobb/Cobb. I just find it a bit odd that this particular card is a new find and one of the super rare "no gloss" cards. The super-sized scan leaves me thinking why the borders are bleeding and the blood red background seems to lack any pixilation. Dunno...perhaps it's just me but it just doesn't look right. Even the Cobb named seems to be strangely aligned when compared to the other Cobb/Cobb's. Hell, I just don't know.
Chicago206
04-26-2010, 12:25 PM
Are you implying the Goodwin card is not authentic?
rman444
04-26-2010, 12:37 PM
Even the Cobb named seems to be strangely aligned when compared to the other Cobb/Cobb's.
Interesting find, Kevin. I never noticed this before. The comma after "Cobb" is directly under the split of Cobb's uniform in the PSA example, and a little to the left of the split in the SGC example. The lettering is also further away from the image on the PSA example.
Are you implying the Goodwin card is not authentic?
Kevin just likes to make alarmist claims. He rarely considers how his comments, however unsubstantiated they may be, affect others, like those who just spent 135k on a card.
JimB
wonkaticket
04-26-2010, 12:47 PM
Had a nice talk with Bill Goodwin today who gave me a call. Bill just wanted to take sometime to try to explain the recent prices without going into details of who was bidding etc.
While I appreciated the call I'm still beside myself on some of the prices as I told Bill.
He understood and tried to give me as much detail as he could. He told me he wanted to make an effort to reach out to me as a bidder to try an ease my concerns if I had any.
Bill also told me he also extends that same courtesy to anyone else who may have questions or concerns.
Just thought I would pass on to the folks here.
John
Personally, I don't care for the overall look of the one in the PSA holder. Besides what has been mentioned what the heck is going on with that front, top left (as we are looking at it) part of the frame that is around Cobb? It's not square. That PSA card looks a lot different, to me, than the SGC one. :eek: I am NOT saying it's not real or anything like that.....but if I were buying it I would certainly want to get a 2nd and 3rd expert opinion. The "look" is probably due to the lack of gloss that the others have, but I am in no way sure of it. regards
Bicem
04-26-2010, 12:53 PM
Kevin just likes to make alarmist claims. He rarely considers how his comments, however unsubstantiated they may be, affect others, like those who just spent 135k on a card.
JimB
I would argue that Kevin really shouldn't take those kind of factors into account when giving his opinion on a card. Should he keep quiet just to not offend the new owner of the Cobb? Just my 2 cents.
Kevin just likes to make alarmist claims. He rarely considers how his comments, however unsubstantiated they may be, affect others, like those who just spent 135k on a card.
JimB
Jim- I disagree. I think Kevin just brought up some points about the card that he thought looked a bit odd. I just did the same thing. If I buy a high dollar card then I expect it to possibly get talked about also. If someone says a card I bought isn't good then that is their opinion. As long as I am comfortable with what I buy then I am happy. I don't mind the questions...and hope no one else would either. Just because we talk about something doesn't make it so....It's a very open forum. Remember, there are some who think that ALL E94 overprints are not good. That is their opinion. It's not mine.
Bicem
04-26-2010, 12:56 PM
supersized scan...
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotImages/16/Lot1a_lg.jpeg
uniship
04-26-2010, 12:58 PM
It's real..... and it's spectacular.
Chicago206
04-26-2010, 01:49 PM
Kevin just likes to make alarmist claims. He rarely considers how his comments, however unsubstantiated they may be, affect others, like those who just spent 135k on a card.
JimB
I dont see a problem with discussing a high profile card's legitimacy. Its not much different than people here talking about the "sheet cut" 2.8 mil Wagner....is it?
Peter_Spaeth
04-26-2010, 02:57 PM
The top left part of the frame not only is not square, it appears to be missing altogether? Are there other examples of this type of printing error on other T206s? It probably is related to the bleeding, and probably is just one of those things...
Jacklitsch
04-26-2010, 03:35 PM
Methinks someone has some spaining to do. :confused:
In speaking with another hobby veteran about that upper left corner he believes it's just a little paper loss. I probably concur on that one point. regards
calvindog
04-26-2010, 03:48 PM
People that own a Cobb/Cobb card are going to say that the price was fair and the card was legit -- because it affects them financially. People that depend on Goodwin's auctions for financial reasons are gong to say the same thing -- because it affects them financially. Follow the dollars and you'll find out motivations of posters.
As for the auction, I'm not saying that it wasn't legit. I'm also not saying that if it wasn't legit that Goodwin was at fault. I just would say that the price was a joke because a) it has no gloss (which to me is a problem, not a positive); the bleeding issue is weird; c) the left corner issue is weird; d) the registration of the card is weird. I'm no expert on Cobb/Cobb but these issues are troubling and I've never seen issues b) and c) on any Cobb/Cobb before. These are red flags to me and surely should not cause the price of the card to triple in value. The card very well may be real but, again, the red flags are troubling and do not serve to enhance the card's value. I've bid on Cobb cards up to 100K; I can tell you that I wouldn't have bid 30K for this card. Just my opinion.
ullmandds
04-26-2010, 03:52 PM
I agree with everything that Jeff just said...except I've never bid 100K on a cobb/cobb card:)!
Personally, I don't care for the overall look of the one in the PSA holder. Besides what has been mentioned what the heck is going on with that front, top left (as we are looking at it) part of the frame that is around Cobb? It's not square. That PSA card looks a lot different, to me, than the SGC one. :eek: I am NOT saying it's not real or anything like that.....but if I were buying it I would certainly want to get a 2nd and 3rd expert opinion. The "look" is probably due to the lack of gloss that the others have, but I am in no way sure of it. regards
Hi Leon,
I have already had my day in the sun regarding my SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper Red Cobb and I don't mean to hijack this thread or be busting your eggs too hard. However you seem to have no trouble jumping on board and voicing your skepticism of this Cobb/Cobb card (one I am assuming you have not seen in person but maybe you have) but were unable to commit an opinion to a card which was in your possession which also possessed an anomaly which I provided numerous close up pictures. Could that have anything to do with the Cobb/Cobb not having been auctioned by you or that it is PSA graded versus being SGC graded?
With respect to Goodwin's example I do see the differences which Kevin pointed out and wonder if those can be attributed to the non glossy version as the image quality or registration of the two cards is quite different. Anyone here have pictures of the other non glossy Cobb/Cobb?
Greg
Hi Leon,
I have already had my day in the sun regarding my SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper Red Cobb and I don't mean to hijack this thread or be busting your eggs too hard. However you seem to have no trouble jumping on board and voicing your skepticism of this Cobb/Cobb card (one I am assuming you have not seen in person but maybe you have) but were unable to commit an opinion to a card which was in your possession which also possessed an anomaly which I provided numerous close up pictures. Could that have anything to do with the Cobb/Cobb not having been auctioned by you or that it is PSA graded versus being SGC graded?
With respect to Goodwin's example I do see the differences which Kevin pointed out and wonder if those can be attributed to the non glossy version as the image quality or registration of the two cards is quite different. Anyone here have pictures of the other non glossy Cobb/Cobb?
Greg
Greg- we are giving you the BP back on the Cobb you bought. If you want me to say the card you bought is no good I am not willing to do that as I am not positive. I also said I am not positive on this card. I raised questions just like several others. If you go back to the other thread I think I admitted the Cobby you bought looked funny too but I wasn't convinced the same way you are. I trust SGC far more than PSA. That is my choice. I am sure they have both made mistakes before, just as I am sure you and I have too. BTW, you actually DID mean to hijack this thread but it's ok as you came back to on topic. Anytime someone says "excuse me I don't mean to interrupt", they are lieing...... regards
Hey Leon,
So now I am a liar or is it simply that you now know all my intentions? No I really did not want to hijack the thread but found it odd that you would so freely render an opinion on a PSA graded card which you have not seen and one you were not the seller of. I could have brought my thread back up to the top and copy and pasted your statement but thought it would be out of context. I can't control where I call shenanigans nor can I control the fact that my comment related to a certain issue I had.
Feel free to edit these posts and put them on my T206 Cobb thread and we can duke it out there. I certainly don't mind my thread being pulled back up from page 5.
And again for the record and to continue to hijack this thread, I told you privately in emails and PMs as well as on the thread that I appreciated your gesture and it was entirely unnecessary as you are not the one who issued the grade on the T206 Cobb I won from you.
Thank you,
Greg
Hey Leon,
So now I am a liar or is it simply that you now know all my intentions? No I really did not want to hijack the thread but found it odd that you would so freely render an opinion on a PSA graded card which you have not seen and one you were not the seller of. I could have brought my thread back up to the top and copy and pasted your statement but thought it would be out of context. I can't control where I call shenanigans nor can I control the fact that my comment related to a certain issue I had.
Feel free to edit these posts and put them on my T206 Cobb thread and we can duke it out there. I certainly don't mind my thread being pulled back up from page 5.
And again for the record and to continue to hijack this thread, I told you privately in emails and PMs as well as on the thread that I appreciated your gesture and it was entirely unnecessary as you are not the one who issued the grade on the T206 Cobb I won from you.
Thank you,
Greg
I figured you would take my comment the wrong way and you didn't disappoint me. All I meant about the hijacking is that yes, you really did mean to bring up the old subject that didn't pertain to this thread. I was just commenting about anyone, not you, that says they don't meant to interrupt....because if they didn't, then they wouldn't. What I won't do is debate you, on the previous Cobb, every time I make a comment about a card I have an opinion on. I just won't answer anymore. You can think what you want to. If you want to pull the old thread up that is your call. I am completely done talking about that Cobb. I did all I could do....and yes, you said it wasn't necessary to give back the BP (in a credit) but Scott and I feel it's the right thing to do. I wasn't calling YOU a liar I was just trying at a little humor... which didn't work. regards
Peter_Spaeth
04-26-2010, 05:14 PM
Maybe my eyes are not so good but that does not look like paper loss to me?
FUBAR
04-26-2010, 05:19 PM
In my opinion, and i am by no means an expert, the top left of the PSA card would be enough to make me not want to purchase it. It looks odd. I am more protective of what i spend my money on. I would have an issue spending $1000 on an odd looking card let alone 150k. Thats just me.
But i am a little confused.... Guys want a Cobb with no gloss?? I thought gloss usually meant is was printed more recently and that original T206's had no gloss. So is this card different? or am i back half asswards?
onlychild
04-26-2010, 05:20 PM
As for the auction, I'm not saying that it wasn't legit. I'm also not saying that if it wasn't legit that Goodwin was at fault. I just would say that the price was a joke because a) it has no gloss (which to me is a problem, not a positive); the bleeding issue is weird; c) the left corner issue is weird; d) the registration of the card is weird. I'm no expert on Cobb/Cobb but these issues are troubling and I've never seen issues b) and c) on any Cobb/Cobb before. These are red flags to me and surely should not cause the price of the card to triple in value. The card very well may be real but, again, the red flags are troubling
Exactly!
The large scan just raises more question in my mind; such as why do the corners (other than the paper loss) on the front and back seem whiter than the card and why all the stray fibers? Could be my eyes but when the super-large scan is enlarged even more it becomes evident...IMO.
Guess these are questions I would ask or at least throw out before I spent over $100K (or less) on a card. Perhaps the buyer did just that, I don't know. Like Leon said, second or even third opinions. I think for $100K I would fly down with someone to look at it....but that's just me.
Yes, the card may very well be real and I know very little about the Cobb/Cobb but there appears to be red flags when compared to others. At least enough to be discussed....again, just my opinion.
FUBAR
04-26-2010, 05:22 PM
I agree, it doesn't look like paper loss on the hi-res scan. The other thing i notice is all 4 corners are evenly rounded... not alot of cards have uniform perfect rounding on all corners.
just my two centavos worth
Abravefan11
04-26-2010, 05:30 PM
Guess these are questions I would ask or at least throw out before I spent over $100K (or less) on a card.
Those are questions most people that frequent this forum would ask. However just because you have $100k to spend on a card doesn't make you a knowledgeable collector.
I'm sure there are at least a couple of people in this hobby with the ability to spend $100k on a card and not really know a lot about the card other than what they're being told.
And as I've said before, once they own it getting a second opinion has no upside.
Edited to add: I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the Cobb/Cobb in question, but one would think a more solid example would bring the price realized. IMO
Steve D
04-26-2010, 05:56 PM
I've been making a side-by-side comparison of the Goodwin Cobb with the REA Cobb, and have made an interesting observation. Take a look at the following scans, giving particular attention to the placement of the comma after "Cobb" in the caption, in relation to the seam in Cobb's jersey. Notice how in the Goodwin Cobb, the seam lines up directly above the comma. In the REA Cobb however, the seam is halfway between the "b" and the "D", and not directly over the comma. Also, in the Goodwin Cobb, the "D" is directly under the buttons.....in the REA example, it is not. It additionally appears that the caption on the Goodwin Cobb has narrower font than on the REA Cobb.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/steved80/T206CobbbackGoodwin.jpghttp://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/steved80/T206CobbbackREA.jpg
I don't know what this means, but it is interesting.
Steve
barrysloate
04-26-2010, 06:13 PM
The comma definitely is in different positions on each card. The SGC Cobb looks exactly as you would expect it to look; the PSA one does have a bit of a different feel to it. The "D" on one is very gray, and black on the other.
These are of course just observations, I also don't know what to make of the discrepancies.
Chicago206
04-26-2010, 06:38 PM
The REA Cobby is looking right at me...the Goodwin Cobb is looking up and to the left.
Chicago206
04-26-2010, 06:38 PM
Those are 2 very distinct faces....anyone else see that?
Steve D
04-26-2010, 06:41 PM
The REA Cobby is looking right at me...the Goodwin Cobb is looking up and to the left.
That isn't unusual though. Due to the printing process, many T206s have registration issues with the eyes. On different examples of the same card, the eyes can be looking straight ahead, up, down, left or right. It's just the way they were printed.
Steve
Chicago206
04-26-2010, 06:50 PM
That isn't unusual though. Due to the printing process, many T206s have registration issues with the eyes. On different examples of the same card, the eyes can be looking straight ahead, up, down, left or right. It's just the way they were printed.
Steve
Ok, thanks. I just learned 2 new things. First, about the eyes, and second that the term "registration" doesnt just refer to the thin black line between the white border and the background.
tedzan
04-26-2010, 06:52 PM
Hey guys, I have at least two T206's that have the background color spilling over the framed border of the card.
So, that upper left printing flaw is not unusual.
Also, if you compare many Red Cobb's, you will find an occasional one with the coma lining up with his uniform's
seam line.
Since I had a real close-up look at this card back in the March Philly Show, the thing that strikes me is the darker
Red background color, as compared to all other Red Cobb cards.
TED Z
Peter_Spaeth
04-26-2010, 07:06 PM
It seems odd, to me anyhow, and I don't know what to make of it, that one card has so many apparent anomalies. Perhaps none of them in isolation is significant, or perhaps even none in combination, but when they coincide on such a valuable card, it seems fair at least to be having the discussion.
ullmandds
04-26-2010, 10:45 PM
with so few known to survive...you'd think not too many were made in the first place. Would there be such printing/gloss variations with so few made...I mean the two background reds appear very different? I don't know?
Maybe the red ink is the same, but the gloss alters the appearance?
calvindog
04-27-2010, 05:36 AM
Also, isn't the point of buying this card to get the unique back of the card? Why spend 150K on the card when the back looks like crap compared to other examples of the card which could have been had for 1/3 the price? Again, makes no sense at all.
Peter_Spaeth
04-27-2010, 06:22 AM
Jeff you will have to ask that question to the winner and underbidder(s).
Jim VB
04-27-2010, 09:24 AM
Also, isn't the point of buying this card to get the unique back of the card? Why spend 150K on the card when the back looks like crap compared to other examples of the card which could have been had for 1/3 the price? Again, makes no sense at all.
Since we started this thread, (not necessarily because of it) the REA Cobb has picked up a couple more bids. It's up to $60k versus $45k a few days ago. I think it will close in the same area as the Goodwin Cobb.
Jacklitsch
04-27-2010, 10:28 AM
Since we started this thread, (not necessarily because of it) the REA Cobb has picked up a couple more bids. It's up to $60k versus $45k a few days ago. I think it will close in the same area as the Goodwin Cobb.
$135,000 with the juice? I'll take the over.
wolfdogg
04-27-2010, 03:14 PM
Dang-that Rucker Piedmont 42 went for some bucks...........
I was thinking same thing.......are they that rare?..........may have to get my Rucker Fact.42 slabbed and sell it.........:D
ullmandds
04-27-2010, 03:25 PM
i think you probably missed the boat on the rucker escapade!!! must have been 2 crazy back completionist collectors going at it!!!
wolfdogg
04-27-2010, 03:49 PM
Yep................:(
chiprop
04-27-2010, 04:13 PM
I'll take the under. REA's crease is heavy.
wonkaticket
04-27-2010, 05:22 PM
http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=717&Lot_No=81060&src=pr#PHOTO#
Here's another that the price makes no sense at least to me..4.5k for this card.. what am I missing? Factory 42 OP's are not that tough...
The SGC 80 bare hand in the same auction was almost 1.5k cheaper...:confused:
barrysloate
04-27-2010, 06:01 PM
Not everybody really knows what they are doing.;)
Peter_Spaeth
04-27-2010, 06:16 PM
Every damn card I bid on, and we are not talking anything exotic, seems to go for a world record price or at least one that makes no sense to me.
calvindog
04-27-2010, 06:39 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that any of the insane prices received in Goodwin auctions will revert to lower prices in REA. You know, like the D304 Cobb:
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=13101
Under/over of 275K (what it sold for in Goodwin)
Peter_Spaeth
04-27-2010, 06:54 PM
Jeff I get outbid no matter whose auction it is, can't win a thing.
Rob D.
04-27-2010, 06:57 PM
Jeff I get outbid no matter whose auction it is, can't win a thing.
Start consigning. Then you'll see lower prices for sure.
vorthian
04-27-2010, 07:07 PM
<< One aspect of the Goodwin Cobb that seems to have been missed here is the fact that this one appears to be only the third example to not have a glossy surface (out of ~15 total examples known of the Cobb/Cobb back. >>
Steve D.,
Absolutely correct. Most of these examples are found with the glossy surface. The ones that lack that, some argue, were pulled pre-final production and are called "proofs."
Jim VB
04-27-2010, 07:09 PM
Start consigning. Then you'll see lower prices for sure.
Maybe he should start consigning AND start bidding on his own items. With Peter's luck that would drive the price up and he would win.
Peter_Spaeth
04-27-2010, 07:29 PM
But who would let me bid on my own cards? :D:D
Jim VB
04-27-2010, 07:33 PM
But who would let me bid on my own cards? :D:D
Jeff would, if he had an auction house.
calvindog
04-27-2010, 07:39 PM
Jeff would, if he had an auction house.
Hey, I'm just a good guy, not a great guy.
Jim VB
04-27-2010, 07:42 PM
Hey, I'm just a good guy, not a great guy.
And yet, some would disagree.
Rob D.
04-27-2010, 07:42 PM
Hey, I'm just a good guy, not a great guy.
But a "great" lawyer. Or so I've read. Somewhere.
calvindog
04-27-2010, 07:52 PM
And yet, some would disagree.
Well, it's true, sometimes I talk about some of the bad things in the hobby and that just sucks because this hobby is great and it's all about the relationships and the great friends we make. Gosh. Darn.
Peter_Spaeth
04-27-2010, 07:56 PM
But a "great" lawyer. Or so I've read. Somewhere.
Probably on his website.
Rob D.
04-27-2010, 07:58 PM
Well, it's true, sometimes I talk about some of the bad things in the hobby and that just sucks because this hobby is great and it's all about the relationships and the great friends we make. Gosh. Darn.
You forgot "golly."
calvindog
04-27-2010, 08:05 PM
You forgot "golly."
Yes, true. Golly!
Interesting that the REA Cobb is still so far below the Goodwin...and all the Planks seem to be way below where they should be...
ullmandds
05-01-2010, 07:20 PM
wouldn't the t214 victory cobb currently up for grabs in the rea auction be tougher than the cobb/cobb? not as iconic...but tougher?
calvindog
05-01-2010, 07:24 PM
Pete, there's a ton of rarer Cobb cards than the Cobb/Cobb.
Here's one:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/2909245525/" title="1921 Herpolsheimer's E121 by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2909245525_ae7548bf60_o.jpg" width="900" height="764" alt="1921 Herpolsheimer's E121" /></a>
Rob D.
05-01-2010, 07:34 PM
Much like the Masters not really starting until the back nine on Sunday, REA doesn't really begin until 1 a.m. Sunday.
rman444
05-01-2010, 07:51 PM
wouldn't the t214 victory cobb currently up for grabs in the rea auction be tougher than the cobb/cobb? not as iconic...but tougher?
T214 Victory Cobb - 2 known
T206 Cobb Back - 15 known
Steve D
05-01-2010, 11:21 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the Goodwin Cobb/Cobb back?
I was just looking at their auction results, and the final bid is listed as $0.00. It looks like they cancelled the bids on it.
Steve
Jim VB
05-01-2010, 11:57 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the Goodwin Cobb/Cobb back?
I was just looking at their auction results, and the final bid is listed as $0.00. It looks like they cancelled the bids on it.
Steve
Very interesting!
OK. Who wants to make up the first story?
Maybe the buyer just doesn't want the data to be in VCP....
Jim VB
05-02-2010, 12:36 AM
Maybe the buyer just doesn't want the data to be in VCP....
Too late for that. VCP has been reporting it for close to a week.
Besides, that decision isn't up to the buyer. Auction houses that have a business agreement with VCP would probably have a contractual obligation to report ALL sales, not just the selected few.
Perhaps the winning bidder, seeing the REA one going for much less decided not to pay Bill and instead go after the REA one.
Jim VB
05-02-2010, 12:46 AM
Perhaps the winning bidder, seeing the REA one going for much less decided not to pay Bill and instead go after the REA one.
Perhaps. But wouldn't Bill then try to sell it to an underbidder and sue the renegger for the difference?
Perhaps. But wouldn't Bill then try to sell it to an underbidder and sue the renegger for the difference?
I have never heard of Bill suing a renegger.
If he did sell to an underbidder, I don't think that sale would be entered as the auction results. I think the auction would show a no-sale and that would be a different transaction.
nolemmings
05-02-2010, 12:49 AM
don't you have a prom queen about to come home?
Jim VB
05-02-2010, 12:51 AM
don't you have a prom queen about to come home?
LOL! Just walked in the door. Earlier than I expected, too!
nolemmings
05-02-2010, 12:52 AM
now you can roll up your sleeves and do some serious bidding!
Jim VB
05-02-2010, 12:52 AM
I have never heard of Bill suing a renegger.
If he did sell to an underbidder, I don't think that sale would be entered as the auction results. I think the auction would show a no-sale and that would be a different transaction.
Well, that's how I would run "my" auction house!
It will be interesting to see what Bobby does with VCP. I suppose he will have to take down that bid also.
Maybe the Cobb/Cobb is being broken down by Gloss or No Gloss, as they are pretty distinct differences....whatever it is, I'm hoping there is a reasonable explanation. I don't feel like anything nefarious is going on...and I'm not sure we are even owed an explanation. Maybe its as simple as the buyer or seller wanted the price taken down....just like on our own B/S/T!
teetwoohsix
05-02-2010, 02:03 AM
I like the one in the SGC holder (REA),over that one in the PSA FR 1.5 holder....
Peter_Spaeth
05-02-2010, 08:10 AM
Perhaps the buyer became concerned about authenticity and Bill agreed to cancel the transaction.
Just my opinion, and I have voiced it repeatedly privately, I always get that sinking feeling when looking at the Cobb/Cobb in the last Goodwin auction. I know it's probably just me but I never liked the "look". But what do I know?
Just my opinion, and I have voiced it repeatedly privately, I always get that sinking feeling when looking at the Cobb/Cobb in the last Goodwin auction. I know it's probably just me but I never liked the "look". But what do I know?
Yeah funny I have that feeling too when I look at a certain Red Cobb. :eek:
That said I would like to know what happened with that Cobb/Cobb.
calvindog
05-02-2010, 09:43 AM
Maybe it will end up on ebay tomorrow with a BIN price of 10% less than what it went for in Goodwin?
Peter_Spaeth
05-02-2010, 10:09 AM
Just my opinion, and I have voiced it repeatedly privately, I always get that sinking feeling when looking at the Cobb/Cobb in the last Goodwin auction. I know it's probably just me but I never liked the "look". But what do I know?
I agree. As I may have said before, just too many things coinciding on one major card -- the color, the registration, the perfectly even corner wear, the lettering, the weird upper left print problem. Then again, who knows.
Jim VB
05-02-2010, 12:30 PM
Whatever the problem was, the price is now back up. (In fact, that item is listed twice.)
Let me add a bit to my personal assessment. I have not seen the Goodwin auctioned Cobb/Cobb in person. Ted Z has, and some others have, as well as PSA. I am sure the card is probably fine. I was just giving my semi-experienced (not near as much as some others on the board) opinion on the card. Bill Goodwin knows cards too so he must think it's good also. I certainly defer to their opinions more than mine on the authenticity and grade of this Cobb/Cobb. I am sure the buyer is happy. regards
chiprop
05-02-2010, 12:50 PM
I looked at it at the chicago show and it looked good to me. There are too many conspiracy theories recently. Please! If you have no clue, than don't make up sh*t. Dan
Rob D.
05-02-2010, 12:58 PM
Yes, why would anyone question any high-dollar cards in today's hobby?
chiprop
05-02-2010, 01:02 PM
rob - I agree that we should question questionable cards, but it seems like every high priced card is a problem lately. AND... not everyone that has commented knows what they are talking about. So, one more time, if you (understood you, not u personally) don't know what you are talking about stop making sh*t up.
T206DK
05-02-2010, 02:38 PM
I think most of the guys on here that have discussed the Cobb /Cobb back card know what they are talking about. Even a novice can look at at that card compared to other Cobb red portraits and see there are slight differences in the background coloration and overall registration and printing. I think it's totally valid to bring these points up whether the card is a high dollar example or not. You will never stop collectors or non-collectors from claiming something is wrong with certain graded cards. The controversy or part of it , lies in the fact that if one of these high dollar cards is discovered to be altered or not real the company that graded it could be out of business really fast. Collectors who have invested thousands on graded cards will undoubtedly be pissed off at such a revelation also. I've had discussions about it since the early 90's with other collectors, so it's nothing new. I have no problem with the price that the Goodwin card sold for, afterall it's only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it in the end.
Someone provided me a scan of a non glossy version of a Cobb/Cobb and the differences which have been pointed out on Goodwin's example are all present on this other example as well.
Chicago206
05-02-2010, 05:03 PM
Someone provided me a scan of a non glossy version of a Cobb/Cobb and the differences which have been pointed out on Goodwin's example are all present on this other example as well.
This really makes me lean towards contemporary counterfeit. With such a supposedly miniscule original print run, why on earth would there be 2 distinct variations of this card? The fact that you saw a scan of another "non glossy" and it had all the same diagnostics as the Goodwin card makes me believe that a "few" counterfeits may be floating around.
Will the real Cobb/Cobb please stand up?!?!?
This really makes me lean towards contemporary counterfeit. With such a supposedly miniscule original print run, why on earth would there be 2 distinct variations of this card? The fact that you saw a scan of another "non glossy" and it had all the same diagnostics as the Goodwin card makes me believe that a "few" counterfeits may be floating around.
Will the real Cobb/Cobb please stand up?!?!?
Really, now. So no other possibilities than their being counterfeit? Someone with far more knowledge on the issue already commented stating a theory that the non glossy versions were pulled before final production and would be considered proofs. The scan I have is from a card which was graded almost 10 years ago.
calvindog
05-02-2010, 05:39 PM
Is it true that Shoeless Joe Jackson got his nickname because he played baseball without any shoes on?
Chicago206
05-02-2010, 05:46 PM
Really, now. So no other possibilities than their being counterfeit? Someone with far more knowledge on the issue already commented stating a theory that the non glossy versions were pulled before final production and would be considered proofs. The scan I have is from a card which was graded almost 10 years ago.
Thats also a possibility as well. However, wouldnt you expect "proof lines" in the borders just like all other T206 proofs? Or was the Cobb/Cobb not a true T206?
jmk59
05-02-2010, 05:58 PM
And wouldn't that hurt his feet?
T206DK
05-02-2010, 06:03 PM
is there anyone on the forum that knows how many "glossy" cards exist as compared to non glossy ? I've never seen a definite count. I've heard of the supposed proof theory and don't think it's that valid. If the non gloss versions were proofs then the gloss versions were real, and I think there would be more of them out there. I tend to think that the non glossy cards may have been inserted into the tins of Ty Cobb tobacco. The Goodwin cards reverse has some staining on it, but upon closer inspection of the picture it doesn't necessarily look like tobacco. It actually looks like a water stain or some sort of liquid stain to me. It doesn't look like tobacco juice to me.
I have discussed with some other advanced collectors about the fact that they could be well made counterfeits or that some Lithograph printers were just messing around making a card of a popular player of the time. I think it's far fetched to think that a press operator or some employees would have just run these off for fun, or that someone would have made them after 1910. There is advertising to back up the cards reverse that has been discovered. I have gone back and looked through a lot of my old auction catalogs at Cobb backed cards and the goodwin card looks darker than the other Cobb backed red protraits I compared it to. Gloss or any finish added to the surface of a card would tend to make it look darker thought. Just my experience as a painter tells me that. I think there will always be some mystery and speculation involved with the Ty Cobb backed cards.
This is verging on the ridiculous now. I have owned four different Cobb backs including the other non-glossy example. I have personally held four other examples in my hands, for a total of 8 of the 14 known. I have seen scans of virtually every other example. And I have personally owned and held thousands of other T206s in my hands over the past 30 years. The non-gloss example that was graded ten years ago is real! There is no doubt about it. In addition to not having gloss, it looks to be hand cut and thus, probably was used in some sort of proof run for the printer. Not having hash marks does not mean the printer did not use it as a proof, even if the hobby might not technically designate it that way. Perhaps the Goodwin example was from the same sheet. WHo knows? It has a similar deep red background, which makes sense for an early print run; it makes sense that the ink would be strong for a first run. And the heavy ink may have caused the bleed over the border. I have only seen scans of the Goodwin example but it looks real to me. The fact that only 14 or 15 are known does not mean that thousands were not printed in 1910. Most are probably in the dustbin of history. Like Leon, I doubt that so many hobby experts like Ted, Bill Goodwin, PSA graders who have handled 10,000s of T206s and are probably extra careful with a Cobb back, and some more private T206 experts who saw the card would all have been duped. If that is the case, expect the population to increase to about 100 in the next few years. I would also expect T206 Wagner and Plank pops to start increasing too. Can we substitute the conspiracy theories for a little sanity please?
JimB
T206DK
05-02-2010, 06:57 PM
:) I wasn't trying to spark a conspiracy FYI. I've only ever seen one of the Cobb backed cards and held it in my hand so I have nothing but that memory to serve me. I've never owned one and have no desire to either, so I have no emotional involvement with this card or with rare backs in general. I collect fronts of cards. What was just stated about the ink being darker at the beginning of a print run is true; after thousands of cards were printed, yes the ink would eventually get lighter. I don't believe that thousands of these cards were thrown away or destroyed though. I doubt the non gloss version is a proof either, there must be another explanation. Every proof I have seen has some sort of printers mark on it or has a blank back. I've only held a few thousand T206's in my hands and have only owned a few hundred, but I don't think that makes me any less qualified to state an opinion on the Cobb card. I bet a lot of guys on this forum haven't owned or held as many T206's as some others have, but that doesn't mean there ridiculous or not to be listened to. I like discussing these different theories about the origins of certain cards. I don't know, maybe there should be a section on the forum for those of us who don't claim to be the most adept or experienced collectors. We're not what I call "Toppers"; we don't have to always be better than everyone else, and make sure everyone else knows about it too. Luckily, there's little if any arrogance here, and only one person who refers to hmself as "we" comes to mind when I think about that. Sometimes it seems as if certain members of this forum just can't be inconvenienced with us collectors at the bottom of the totem pole. To me , this forum is a great cross section of those who collect older baseball cards and memorabilia. We all come from different backgrounds , and I believe most of us have a true love for the hobby and wish to learn and share info here.
HRBAKER
05-02-2010, 07:00 PM
Jim,
Sanity doesn't sell papers. :D
Dave,
I think you and I were composing at the same time. I was actually responding to Chicago206.
JimB
Jim VB
05-02-2010, 07:08 PM
Dave,
I was actually responding to Chicago206.
JimB
And THAT... is why he is leaving!
;)
Chicago206
05-02-2010, 07:26 PM
:) I wasn't trying to spark a conspiracy FYI. I've only ever seen one of the Cobb backed cards and held it in my hand so I have nothing but that memory to serve me. I've never owned one and have no desire to either, so I have no emotional involvement with this card or with rare backs in general. I collect fronts of cards. What was just stated about the ink being darker at the beginning of a print run is true; after thousands of cards were printed, yes the ink would eventually get lighter. I don't believe that thousands of these cards were thrown away or destroyed though. I doubt the non gloss version is a proof either, there must be another explanation. Every proof I have seen has some sort of printers mark on it or has a blank back. I've only held a few thousand T206's in my hands and have only owned a few hundred, but I don't think that makes me any less qualified to state an opinion on the Cobb card. I bet a lot of guys on this forum haven't owned or held as many T206's as some others have, but that doesn't mean there ridiculous or not to be listened to. I like discussing these different theories about the origins of certain cards. I don't know, maybe there should be a section on the forum for those of us who don't claim to be the most adept or experienced collectors. We're not what I call "Toppers"; we don't have to always be better than everyone else, and make sure everyone else knows about it too. Luckily, there's little if any arrogance here, and only one person who refers to hmself as "we" comes to mind when I think about that. Sometimes it seems as if certain members of this forum just can't be inconvenienced with us collectors at the bottom of the totem pole. To me , this forum is a great cross section of those who collect older baseball cards and memorabilia. We all come from different backgrounds , and I believe most of us have a true love for the hobby and wish to learn and share info here.
Very well stated. I have had enough of the childish "you dont know anything cuz your new to this". Had I realized that this website was more of a good ole boys club than a come one, come all and lets talk cards, I doubt that my enthusiasm for collecting would have ever peaked. Apparently my opinions on certain matters do not count because I have not been collecting for 25 years. The ironic aspect of this is that even the "so called experts" on this forum...the ones who continually attack my views.....dont know certain things for sure either. This particular card is a perfect example....simply all just theories. My theories are not allowed!
Jim VB
05-02-2010, 07:33 PM
Apparently my opinions on certain matters do not count because I have not been collecting for 25 years.
A little over dramatic, don't you think?
Sure your opinions count. They just don't count as much as someone who has been doing it for 25+ years.
You could learn a lot more if you talked a little less.
Peter_Spaeth
05-02-2010, 07:38 PM
I thought Ted said he had never seen another Red Cobb with that color. if I misunderstood him, my apologies, but here is what he said:
"Since I had a real close-up look at this card back in the March Philly Show, the thing that strikes me is the darker
Red background color, as compared to all other Red Cobb cards."
Perhaps that was just an observation on his part and not an expression of any concern, I don't know.
I've seen my share of Cobb/Cobbs myself, and this color seems vastly different to me as well, but I still attribute that to the potential gloss/no gloss difference, which would only exacerbate the difference in a scan.
The ironic aspect of this is that even the "so called experts" on this forum...the ones who continually attack my views.....dont know certain things for sure either.
Depends on their agenda, really.
Chicago206
05-02-2010, 08:09 PM
Depends on their agenda, really.
Other way around. I have no horse in the Cobb/Cobb race, but from some of the vicious replies I get when I state that I dont see it as a true T206, its clear that some here DO have a horse! So yeah, agenda's do fuel the bitterness I guess.;)
ullmandds
05-02-2010, 08:27 PM
Let's do this again...I too vote for not a t206...someone start a poll!
Abravefan11
05-02-2010, 08:33 PM
Peter -
I'm on your side. I don't think it's a T206 but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. I've read the previous Net54 discussions and still come to this conclusion.
FUBAR
05-02-2010, 08:38 PM
ive been collecting for 35 years but i am still clueless on this card. I am sure there are guys with 5 years collecting that know more then I on certain subjects.
It reminds me of a story i heard (could be an old wives tale) of a truck that got stuck in a bridge. No one could figure out how to get the truck unstuck as it was really wedged in the tunnel under the bridge. Many things were tried, but to no avail... no one could get this truck unstuck,not police, not firemen, not all the engineers. but everyone had an opinion on how to do it. Then a young kid rode up on his bike and asked what was going on. He then said, why dont they just let the air out of the tires.
I have a theory myself.....
I will say this first... No one here knows for sure, none of us were there. Assumptions are not facts, they are opinions. I know when i threw out an opinion before, guys came unglued because it differs from their opinion.
My girlfriend lets me know everyday my opinion doesn't count for much!
Relax and have fun, this is baseball cards!!!!!!!
This can be analyzed from a hundred directions. Different finishes could be simply from different batches. Sure only 15 are known today, but in 1911 or whenever, maybe 10000 existed, we dont know, maybe they were destroyed or never issued, or lost in a warehouse fire or the dog ate them. No one knows, they only assume. They could have been salesman promos or just press proofs that never materialized. From what i have gathered, the tobacco wasn't that popular and wasn't around long. Good chance, if the company discontinued the brand, maybe most, but not all the cards got pitched out in the trash!
Point is, the difference could be this: simply different batches of ink. It does happen. If they were printed a week or month apart.
Steve D
05-02-2010, 11:40 PM
I will say this first... No one here knows for sure, none of us were there.
Wait a minute.....Ted was there!
Kidding Ted.....I'm Kidding!!!!!
;) :D
Steve
T206DK
05-03-2010, 06:35 AM
I missed Chicago's other post so I thought Jim may have been talking to me.
I have a hard time telling when the member ChicagoT206 is trying to push peoples buttons, but it appears as though he may have been with his recent posts yesterday. It's fine to ponder the questions of 100 year old tobacco cards with other collectors on here ChicagoT206, but it's not right to try to pick fights with people or to muddy the waters of this forum with trash talk or nonsense. If you are truly new to collecting these cards and want to learn something sit back and read others posts for awhile and then ask questions. While collecting experience shouldn't disqualify one from participating in this forum, it does give credence to a persons opinion based on their experience. As I stated before, I've never owned a Cobb backed card and have not had a desire to, but I find it absolutely interesting figuring out when , where, why, and how many of these cards were produced. I also find it relevant to discuss the recent prices garnered by these cards in auctions as it reflects upon the card market in general ( vintage cards, that is).