Need a little help...

[tlwise12]

I've been looking for Satchel Paige items and a few that keep coming up are pencil clips-

One issued by the Cleveland Indians
http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=191&Lot=717

One issued by the St. Louis Browns
http://cgi.ebay.com/Satchel-Paige-Pencil-Topper_W0QQitemZ260586944514QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3cac313802

The Cleveland Indians issues are listed in the book, but the St. Louis Browns one is not. So, I talked to one collector and he told me he isnt sure where or how they come about but they have been around for about 20-30 years.

Are the St. Louis Browns clips fakes or some modern fantasy issue??? If they are authentic-How do you tell fakes from the real thing???

On the Cleveland issues-How do you spot fakes from the real thing???

Travis
tlwise12@aol.com

[barrysloate]

The majority of the Paige pencil clips in the hobby are modern reproductions. We had a thread about them last month on the memorabilia side. I don't know if there are any diagnostic marks that would help you determine if one was real or not.

[Rob D.]

The majority of the Paige pencil clips in the hobby are modern reproductions. We had a thread about them last month on the memorabilia side. I don't know if there are any diagnostic marks that would help you determine if one was real or not.

Actually, the majority of Browns Paige clips are reproductions. I've never seen a repro of an Indians Paige clip (or any Indians clip, for that matter).

[barrysloate]

Rob- I once bought a Cleveland Satchell Paige pencil clip, as well as some Paige buttons, from an antique store and later found out they were modern fakes. I'm pretty sure it was Cleveland and not St. Louis...but it was about 20+ years ago so I may be wrong.

[fkw]

Ive always thought they were vintage to the early 50's. I owned a couple of the St.L Browns ones in the early 80's, and they had rust and age back then. I just searched and the ones that normally pop up have a smaller image that what I remember.

I believe these are the original vintage ones larger (larger image)
http://www.barkermuseum.com/MuseumList.asp?CID=65-2-0&IID=101&PG=21&SRT=1&SRWD=

I believe the fakes from the 80's look like this (smaller image)
http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=4339758


The ones that are ALL fake for sure are the Cobb, Ruth, Wagner etc. ones.

[Rob D.]

Rob- I once bought a Cleveland Satchell Paige pencil clip, as well as some Paige buttons, from an antique store and later found out they were modern fakes. I'm pretty sure it was Cleveland and not St. Louis...

I'd be very surprised if that were the case.

[barrysloate]

Then I am remembering them wrong. I know I bought many pencil clips, and a Satchell Paige Cleveland button, and they were all modern repros. Maybe the clip was a Browns clip....too many years ago, I guess.

[Rob D.]

Here's a real Browns Paige, along with five other authentic ones. The Browns clips are at least 15 times more difficult to find than the Indians clips. How rare they are compared to a Red Hindu, I have no idea.

The pencil clips were the brainchild of Bill Veeck when he owned the Indians. When he moved to the Browns, he recycled the idea in St. Louis. A friend has a letter from Veeck that he received in response to an inquiry he made when Veeck was with the White Sox. In it Veeck talks about the pencil clip promotion. I have a photocopy of the letter, which I'll post later if I can dig it up.

[fkw]

Interesting,
Looks like the image of Paige is lighter and more detailed on Robs group example.... Compared to the other 2 types I had linmks to. (larger and small image).

I guess the authentic ones will have that clear more detailed portrait.

Its been close to 30 years since Ive owned one :)

[tlwise12]

Guys, thanks for all the great info!!! Barry-could you point me to the thread last month- I looked but couldnt find it!!!

Thanks again!

Travis

[barrysloate]

Travis- I just looked but couldn't find it either. All I saw was your post from last week. Sorry, but I'm pretty sure we had a discussion about them. Maybe it was several months ago.

[autograf]

Rob got that grouping from me.....the ones you see on ebay that are fake are pretty easy to tell. The interior photo of Paige is the same but smaller and there's much more border around the photo. In addition, the coloring of the white background is actually a little more creamy. The brown Cleveland Indians Satchell Paige clip is indeed real and, like Rob, I haven't seen any repros of it. Not to say it couldn't happen but haven't seen any. I have another good Satchell Paige Browns clip albeit not in as good of shape as the one I sold Rob. Paige is ONLY in the Indians Brown-Colored set of 1949. The Cleveland Browns are REALLY difficult and only show up on ebay about 1/20 or less of the time as their Indians counterparts. I sold about 70-75 Indians Clips to a guy in Cleveland at the same time I sold Rob the Browns clips.

[autograf]

I also note Byrne, Hornsby and Rivera were part of the Browns Clips, totalling 9 but I didn't have the three of them. There may be more too but I'm not sure. Another collector of these is maris61 from ebay and sportman from ebay.

[jp1216]

Cleveland Browns or St. Louis Browns?

[autograf]

1952 Cleveland Indians BROWN (colored) set
St. Louis Browns WHITE (colored) set

Kinda confusing. Sorry................
Woops.......I noted I put CLEVELAND browns.........wrong sport.

[Rob D.]

To clarify the years/colors of Cleveland Indians pencil clips:

Black -- 1948

Brown -- 1949

White -- 1950

Blue -- 1951

Blue -- 1952

The way to tell a 1951 clip from a '52 is that the 1951 clips have a white, union logo on the underside of the rim of the celluloid button. The 1952 clips do not.

There are 90 different clips known.

1948 -- 20

1949 -- 20

1950 -- 19

1951 -- 12

1952 -- 19

Larry Doby is the only player to have a clip each of the five years they were made. His pose is the same each year, albeit cropped a bit differently some years.

Luke Easter has clips in 1950, '51 and '52. His photo is the same in 1950 and '52 (though cropped differently), but the photo used in 1951 is completely different.

During the years I spent putting together my set of 90, I spoke to a lot of different clip collectors. There never was a consensus of any color being harder to find than another. For a few guys, the white clips were harder. For others, 1951's gave them trouble. Tom found the browns clips tougher to find, but I've never seen anything that indicated they are.

There most certainly are specific players in specific years who are really, really tough. A few that come to mind off the top of my head are Joe Gordon in 1948 (but he's an easy clip in '49), Al Gettel in 1948 (when I bought mine on eBay about 10 years ago, I paid close to $300, and there was a ton of sniping at the wire), Mike Tresh in 1949 and Pete Reiser in 1952.

I know of three complete sets in the hobby, and the third one was completed just within the past year. Of course there probably are more complete sets out there. The most fun I've ever had in the hobby was tracking these down and putting together the set.

If anyone wants a checklist of the 90 known, feel free to e-mail me.

[autograf]

I don't know where I got 1952........I looked at my checklist and saw 1949 and typed 1952. But, then again, I typed CLEVELAND BROWNS too. Brain farts galore........great collectibles........

[GaryS]

I know this is an old thread, but I collect Cleveland Indian pencil clips. If anyone has any for sale let me know.
I'd also be interested in any vintage St. Louis Browns pencil clips.