BCCG Strikes Again

[Matt]

Thanks Beckett! What a wonderful service you are providing the hobby!

Before:
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=103468
After:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1948-49-Leaf-SATCHEL-PAIGE-Rookie-Cleveland-BGS-BCCG-6_W0QQitemZ360226505593

The seller ran this a few months with the back scan with no takers; back scan removed + BCCG 6 = sale.

[ullmandds]

that's not good...

[mintacular]

What a shame. Also the seller "forgot" to post a back scan...

[buymycards]

All of this sellers completed auctions are BCCG items.

That stinks.

Rick

[egbeachley]

Beckett = Pathetic

[whycough]

Maybe it's not the same card. It's a 6 on the front! Back should be shown so we can find out. If I were bidding, I would ask to see the back first. Would never buy a card graded by BCCG.

[Jim VB]

I think it stinks too, but anyone dropping close to $8,000 on a card needs to be a little smarter than that.

Seller is very slimy.

[Matt]

Maybe it's not the same card. It's a 6 on the front! Back should be shown so we can find out.

If you blow up the scan in Legendary you can see the subtle wear pattern is identical, but no need; here's a link to the back from the seller's web site when they had it included in the listing:
http://mandlcards.com/BCCG/0118/1005.jpg

[scooter729]

It is the same card, because in BCCG's twisted pathetic world, a 6 equates to "Good or Better", which means it would be the same as a PSA 2 or SGC 30 apparently.

The uneducated BCCG buyers are going to learn a very difficult lesson with crap like this getting graded by what has the appearance of a reputable company.

[barrysloate]

This hobby is going to the dogs.

[HRBAKER]

We already knew about BCCG, looks like a seller to take note of too.

[Ease]

Though it is wrong for the seller not to include a pic of the back, it's totally buyer beware on anything in life. The card is clearly listed as good or better, and it's up to the buyer to be informed on different co.'s grading scales. I know everybody wants full honesty, etc., and so do I, but to blame the seller or beckett totally is out of line, imo the buyer takes the majority of the fault.

[Rob D.]

Assuming the sale is legit, on whom do you place most of the blame:

A. Beckett

B. The seller

C. The buyer

[Tcards-Please]

The numerical grade of "6" is misleading, but since these are graders from Beckett that assigned it a grade of Good or Better, does that mean that BVG would also give this a numerical "2" Good grade? Do the same graders grade both (BCCG & BVG/BGS)? Although I do feel that the SGC grade of 20 was appropriate because of the paper loss on the back.

r/
Frank

[Matt]

Though it is wrong for the seller not to include a pic of the back, it's totally buyer beware on anything in life. The card is clearly listed as good or better, and it's up to the buyer to be informed on different co.'s grading scales. I know everybody wants full honesty, etc., and so do I, but to blame the seller or beckett totally is out of line, imo the buyer takes the majority of the fault.

You started your post by finding fault with the seller then ended by saying blaming the seller is out of line. In this particular transaction, there is plenty of blame to go around - Beckett for setting up the system, the seller for taking advantage of it and the buyer for dropping $8k on a card and not bothering to look at the back.

To your point that the card is clearly listed as good or better, it's also listed (in large font) as a "6." In every other grading system and even Beckett's normal system, 6 means EX-NM. Proving the point is that clearly the buyer didn't notice the grade description and just bought based on it being a "6." Again, plenty of blame to go around on this one.

[Ease]

I agree there's plenty of blame to go around, but the buyer (if legit) has to absorb most of it. Beckett only provides the bccg service, it's up to unscrupulous dealers to pull something like this. I'm no beckett fanboy nor do I agree with what the seller did, but I do not think any informed collector doesn't know that bccg's grading system is bogus. It is up to the buyers out there to stay away from items like this, if a seller can slap a pos in a bccg holder and make money, it makes fiscal sense (obviously morally wrong) to do it, and they will continue until buyers are informed and stay away. Crazy...
1. Buyer
2. Seller
3. Beckett

[barrysloate]

I blame all three. The Beckett slab is completely misleading because a 6 connotes a high grade. The only protection the buyer has is a good clear picture of the front and back, since it is the back that cost the card its grading points. So of course the seller omits a scan of the back. I blame:

1) Beckett for having a misleading grade;
2) The seller for omitting a scan of the back;
3) The buyer (if there was one) for showing very poor judgment in spending so much money for it.

Let's call it a three way tie.

[aro13]

From the front scan the card actually looks like an EXMT card. The buyer was totally misled in this case, I blame Beckett and the seller far more than the buyer.

[tothrk]

Unless you enjoy wasting money, wouldn't you request a scan of the back? Maybe the gov. bought it.

[HRBAKER]

IMO the seller never would have selected BCCG to "grade" the card if the intent was to not have the card appear to be favorably graded with a big "6" and small Good or Better. Secondly the seller choose not to include a back scan, we know he had one because Matt pulled it from the website. Lastly, yes anyone who is about to drop that kind of coin on a card should ask for a back scan. Heck maybe they did and bought it anyway but I doubt it. BOttom line for me, this is not a seller I would want to do business with but it might be a buyer i would, just kidding.

[Steve D]

One major point that I think is being missed here is that initially, the card was in an SGC 20 holder (only 4 months ago). Someone (presumably the current seller) cracked the card out of the SGC holder and sent it to BCCG. Clearly, this had to have been done with intent to defraud. Why else would someone do this?

So, I completely blame the seller for this whole thing.


Steve

[majordanby]

I agree that you better do some damn research if you're going to throw down 8K for cardboard...but, does that mean the blame decreases for the buyer as the price of the card lowers? my hope back when beckett introduced bccg that the market will eventually kick out this product because of its misaligned grading scheme.

[yanksfan09]

I think if beckett wants to earn more trust and respect in the hobby, they need to do away with bccg. What does that stand for..."Beckett's crappy card grading ?"

I like BVG, and will buy cards of those and like beckett's regular service for new cards, but this is a joke.

[Leon]

I think if beckett wants to earn more trust and respect in the hobby, they need to do away with bccg. What does that stand for..."Beckett's crappy card grading ?"

I like BVG, and will buy cards of those and like beckett's regular service for new cards, but this is a joke.

I doubt very seriously that BCCG is going to go away. If I were Beckett, and viewed this as Business 101, I wouldn't do away with it either. It fills a niche for the home shopping club, Target, Wal-Mart, K-Mart type stores and clubs. It never was meant to be a vintage grading service. If it says Good or better on the flip, and the grade is 6,7,8 etc.....then the buyer needs to understand what they are buying before they do so. That being said there isn't much doubt the seller, not showing the back and getting it regraded, has some fault here. How many hundreds, or thousands, of times have we said to buy the card and not the holder?

Now, do I think the service is good for Vintage? No, but it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be good for someone that doesn't want to get stuck with a fake or reprint card that is being sold as real. Forget about the number on the BCCG flips and it's not hard to swallow. If you focus on the number alone then you will be upset.

[chaddurbin]

i hope the buyer used bing cashback

[barrysloate]

Leon- if BCCG was created for venues like the Home Shopping Network, why is a card like a 49 Leaf Paige even put in one of these holders in the first place? Shouldn't a scarce and very valuable card be automatically passed over to BVG?

[Robextend]

The people that will suffer most are those that are new to the hobby and don't research what BCCG is. A couple years ago when I got back into collecting I very well may have been susceptible to being a victim, thankfully that didn't happen.

I agree that it is good business for Beckett and they probably won't ever do away with it as long as they are profiting. With that said, IMO seller's that don't disclose the condition of the ENTIRE card are misleading and unethical.

[yanksfan09]

Leon,

I hear what you're saying, but to me I feel by them filling that niche for HSN, target, wallmart etc...; they are targeting uniformed collectors and kids. To me it's nothing more than a scam. I understand that people need to educate themselves more on what they're buying. But I'm sure kids and young teens see those HSN deals with the 1994 classic Jeter cream of the crop inserts (which i have handfuls of and they claim to be Rookies), graded Mint10. These are $1-$2 dollar cards that they slab and then sell in these "deals" on HSN, Walmart, etc.... for maybe an average of $10-20 a card.

Then they'll slab somehat older cards like maybe a 1991 ish North Carolina Michael Jordan Coca-Cola card? (I forget who made it). They then tout it as a pre- rookie, or college card or whatever and slab it. Maybe it gets slabbed an 8 or 9 so people think they're getting a high grade and valuable card when they're not. They're just getting a somewhat off- condition card that had no real value to begin with.

I know I'm rambling a bit here, but I just hate the whole concept. I think it caters to the uninformed and to con-men looking to make a flip like the one above. Also, if you just want to know you have an unaltered, real card, then why not use the regular service to authenticate only instead of getting a number grade on it with BCCG?

[Matt]

BCCG takes some of the blame in the deception as well - if they were only after a cheaper mass-production alternative, then why start numbering at 5, making it look like a 10 point scale when it is really only a 5 point scale?
Furthermore, if it really is for HSN and the such, why are they allowing mom and pop sellers to submit?

I don't doubt there is a legit business for Beckett here, but why not number 1 through 5 (or even skip number starting at 1) and also only allow the service to be used by those who have a special contract with Beckett to mass grade & sell?

[Jim VB]

Leon- if BCCG was created for venues like the Home Shopping Network, why is a card like a 49 Leaf Paige even put in one of these holders in the first place? Shouldn't a scarce and very valuable card be automatically passed over to BVG?

The misdirection on the part of Beckett is the use of a totally different grading scale. The BCCG scale runs from BCCG 5 to BCCG 10. That means that a BCCG 6 IS NOT a high grade card.

So, a buyer who is not aware of this can be duped into approaching it like it's a 6 out of 10, when it clearly isn't.

So to answer Rob's question about proportioning blame:

I put 60% with the seller, who clearly cracked and resubmitted the card with the intent of raising the grade while finding a sucker to buy it.

I put 30% with Beckett for setting up a fraudulent grading system that asks for this kind of abuse.

And I put 10% with the buyer, for not asking to see a back scan, not knowing that BCCG and the seller were screwing with his bank account, and not listening to The Electic Light Orchestra when they said "A fool and his money soon go separate ways."


Editted to add: I could make an argument to raise each and every percentage listed, but Rob, being the stickler for details that he is, would want them to add up to 100%, not 180%

[teetwoohsix]

IMO-the seller is a scumbag-period.He knows what he did.He sent it to BCCG for sole purpose of deceiving someone,knowing the supposed "high" grade it would show,even though it's NOT a high grade.
I agree,the buyer needs to do their homework,but there are other scenarios-like what if your wife knew you had been dying to get this card-and bought it for you as a gift??Can you say "What did you do,you should've been studying Net54 before buying me this card"?
BCCG may make them a lot of money,but it sucks.I like BVG,but BCCG has to go.
The seller is dirty-go take a shower seller,because you stink.

[usernamealreadytaken]

Reinforcing the lesson to Buy the Card, not the grade/flip/case, etc.

[chaddurbin]

BCCG takes some of the blame in the deception as well - if they were only after a cheaper mass-production alternative, then why start numbering at 5,making it look like a 10 point scale when it is really only a 5 point scale?


then don west couldn't scream..."OMG DEREK JETER '96 UPPER DECK BCCG 1000000....LOOK AT THIS GUIDE YOU KNOW HOW MUCH A PSA10 GOES FOR, THIS IS A ONCE IN A LIFETIME DEALLLLL RIGHT HERE FOLKS!!!!!"

i agree bccg at the very least is trying to confuse, and at worst is deceiving its target audience. they also create easy opportunities for scammers to rip off new and old collectors alike.

[Jim VB]

Reinforcing the lesson to Buy the Card, not the grade/flip/case, etc.



But in this case, you have to "buy the back of the card" as well.

[barrysloate]

Clayton is right. Once sleazy sellers realize they can buy a vintage card graded 2, and then send it to BCCG and have it magically changed to a 6 or 7, this will not happen once in a while but become an epidemic. This is a very bad policy.

[Robextend]

Does anyone remember the Shop at Home Network SNL skit? One of the funniest skits ever....

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/96/96fshop.phtml

[yanksfan09]

Clayton is right. Once sleazy sellers realize they can buy a vintage card graded 2, and then send it to BCCG and have it magically changed to a 6 or 7, this will not happen once in a while but become an epidemic. This is a very bad policy.

On top of that, uninformed buyers think they are getting a legit BECKETT graded card. This is a name even casual collectors know. I'm sure there are people out there who think they're better off buying a BCCG 8 than a Pro 9 (maybe a poor example there, because that's probably true, but you get the point)

[yanksfan09]

Also, one more point is that this does a disservice to the hobby as a whole. When new/young people getting into the hobby get burned by a bad deal like the Paige card or one of those 1994-1996 jeter "RCs" it turns people off to the hobby as a whole. It undermines the true grading services and leaves a bad taste in would-be collectors' mouths, keeping the hobby from growing and becoming more legitimate to the average person...

[Kawika]

What this country needs is a good government-run, single-payer third party grading service like they have in Canada.

[FUBAR]

i am going to spin this a little differently..... Although i agree the seller is somewhat deceptive, his job as a seller is to get the most for his product. He has done that very well, it is sales/marketing 101. He made it more presentable to John q Buyer. All he did was change the holder. This guy knows BCCG gives a higher #, a more seller friendly number then other companies, and based on his feedback and other listings, he uses them alot for this purpose. Although experienced collectors do not like what he does, there is nothing wrong with it. His target market is the inexperienced collector.
If you are selling a house, do you take pictures of the cracks and paint chips? No, you point out the hilites. All the seller really did was put a new coat of paint on his house, and didnt point out the negatives aspects. The seller does have 12000+ feedback.


now onto the buyer. How do we not know the buyer didnt ask for a scan of the back? Although you were able to cross reference this card to an SGC holder, most wouldnt think of trying to look for that type of thing.

Also, how do we know the buyer is unhappy with his/her purchase?? we dont unless you contacted the seller and asked him/her.... he/she may be happy, but i am sure if they knew how this card was flipped, he/ she would be unhappy.

i can provide a personal example of this, When i started dating the girl i am with, she told me she had a vintage/antique bat that she paid $250 for. She told me how nice and valuable it was. So i asked to see this "amazing" bat seeing as i am somewhat knowledgable on collecting moreso then most (until i met you folks) well she brings out this "Dave Parker" wooden bat from the 70's, that you could buy at any K-mart back then. it looks like it was used as a hammer.
When i told her it was almost worthless, we got into an arguement. She was happy with her purchase. She now knows i am right and she got taken, being a girl who just wanted a nice collectable.

Beckett.. We all wish BCCG was consistent with other grading companies , but it isnt. It is marketed as a low cost alternative grading company, using the Beckett name. It is seperate from BGS and BVG. Therefore, as unfortunate as it is, they use a different scale to create a more positive spin on the card for inexperienced collectors. You cant blame them, it generates them moe business. Its also why i personally will never buy a BCCG graded card.


Leon hit it on the head, buy the card, not the holder!!!!

so to summarize:

So the seller got maximum money for his item.
Buyer paid too much, but could be happy, we dont know..
BCCG sucks and uses a terrible grading system.


Life goes on....lets hope people can learn from others mistakes!

[ullmandds]

Jim...your girlfriend REALLY paid $250 for a Dave Parker bat? If so...where would I find the thurman munson version of her?

[FUBAR]

yes she did, if i knew how to post up a picture, i would. I keep it in the living room and make fun of her every time she tells me i am wasting my money!

worst thing, its not even a real Dave Parker bat, it is a kids Dave Parker bat.... its only about 28 inches or so is my guess. K-mart special!

[DanP]

I think we just discussed this recently where I mentioned I made the same mistake when I got back into collecting in 2006. I bought a BCCG 9 or 10 1975 Brett (can't remember) for $120. I knew there were other grading companies, but did about 2 minutes of research and saw that BCCG is Beckett. I figured it must be legit since it was Beckett.

Once I got a little more experience I started dealing with PSA and SGC. I sent the card to PSA and received a 6. End result, I lost $100 (actually $120 since I gave the card away). It was 100% my fault.

There are so many scams out there today. Everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions. The seller made the most they could after doing their homework, BCCG provided the service that fit their business model after doing their homework and the buyer overpaid for a card he/she wanted after NOT doing their homework.

Dan

[FUBAR]

reminds me of my younger days, go out to a club and pick up an "8" maybe get a "9" if i had some luck. The occasional 10 was there, but could ever really afford one...

then the next morning, you realized she was a BCCG 8, not a PSA 8...

nowadays, you realize you only get the BVG(vintage) ones and a 4 or 5 is all you can afford

and you better hope you get a "real" one cause there is nothing worse then a fake! you thought you bought Eve, but you got Steve

[smtjoy]

Until they lose BCCG I refuse to use Beckett.

It's sad that the people who are hurt most by this are the new people to the hobby. IMO It is deceptive and hurts the hobby.

[HRBAKER]

Until they lose BCCG I refuse to use Beckett.

It's sad that the people who are hurt most by this are the new people to the hobby. IMO It is deceptive and hurts the hobby.


Scott,
My sentiments exactly. Their "system" regardless of who it is/was designed for is functioning as an enabler.

Jeff

[Leon]

Until they lose BCCG I refuse to use Beckett.

It's sad that the people who are hurt most by this are the new people to the hobby. IMO It is deceptive and hurts the hobby.

Beckett is an advertiser but I would hate for folks to think I say what I do just because of that. Trust me, I don't. As a matter of fact I had some discussions with them today about advertising their AUT service more and have it be more known. I think I know them fairly well and I didn't even realize that they offer the service of AUT of a card that has NO issues, the submitter just wanted to know it was not altered.

That being said if anyone can't read the words under the number, that say "Good or Better" when it is a 6, then maybe they need to do some more research before plunking money down. We could argue all day long but in the end Beckett, nor I, nor anyone, will make everyone happy. It can't happen. Heck, we had people thinking they should win their lots in my last auction because we got attacked and that attack took the system down.

The sky is not falling. "We are the government and we are here to help!!" :eek:

[buymycards]

OK, so if Beckett is using BCCG for the mass markets, what is the point of this grading system? It takes just as long to grade a card as BCCG 6 good or better as it does to grade it Beckett or BVG 2. Why can Beckett grade a BCCG card for a couple of bucks but a BVG card costs more? I guess I don't get it.

In my mind BCCG = PRO. Both are equally deceptive.

Rick

[Steve D]

and you better hope you get a "real" one cause there is nothing worse then a fake! you thought you bought Eve, but you got Steve



Hey come on now!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

I was laughing until that line!!!!!!!!!! :mad:


;)
Steve

[FUBAR]

ok we will go with Michelle and Michael.... hows that? and before anyone asks, this is not from a personal experience...

[Steve D]

ok we will go with Michelle and Michael.... hows that? and before anyone asks, this is not from a personal experience...



That's better.

;)
Steve

[FUBAR]

unless you're dating a Michelle :D or maybe you are dating Emma Mann.... who knows!

[Leon]

OK, so if Beckett is using BCCG for the mass markets, what is the point of this grading system? It takes just as long to grade a card as BCCG 6 good or better as it does to grade it Beckett or BVG 2. Why can Beckett grade a BCCG card for a couple of bucks but a BVG card costs more? I guess I don't get it.

In my mind BCCG = PRO. Both are equally deceptive.

Rick

Seriously Rick, you don't get it? Why don't you pose this question to every grading company? They all have different tiers (costs) and it has to do with liability, I believe, as well as the quickness of grading the submission. Also, and this is just a guess, but it probably takes more experience (paying someone with more experience) to grade the nuances of a 100 yr old card vs a 100 day old card. This is a poor analogy but why would a brain surgeon cost more than a general practitioner, on an hourly basis? Probably experience and liability. There is no doubt that every grading company has people that won't use them and Beckett is no different. Do I wish they would have used a different scale, sure I guess.....but then again I have been known to read what is on the label so I guess it just doesn't matter that much to me. It's America folks. Do what you want to....but I do trust BVG a lot with their grading. So far they have never failed me yet, though I haven't submitted as much to them as I have SGC....best regards

[Matt]

It appears the buyer was unhappy with his purchase:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360247306344

[Frank A]

Bccg may have sold a lot of cards to unsuspecting people, but how many have they driven away with this practice. If you just started collecting and were told what a great deal you were getting on these high graded cards, and then find out there crap, youre pissed and leaving the hobby. I'm sure they drew a lot of new people into the hobby but then pissed them off, and most probably won't be back. There grading stinks and they should be ashamed of themselves for it. Quite a joke.

[sox1903wschamp]

It appears the buyer was unhappy with his purchase:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360247306344

The fishing pole is back in the pond ;)

[birdman42]

I doubt very seriously that BCCG is going to go away. If I were Beckett, and viewed this as Business 101, I wouldn't do away with it either.

More Business 101: Don't **** with your brand. Remember Crystal Pepsi? That one screwup came close to costing the company an entire year's profits.

There's a great basic marketing book titled What Were They Thinking? The author runs a "failed products" market research firm, and has thousands of products representing billions (yes, with a "b") of dollars worth of misguided product launches. Some of them actually have killed brands.

Beckett's other brand will come back to bite them, IMO

Bill

[joeadcock]

Have read this thread with interest.

Ultimately, the most responsible person is the buyer as he/she made the decision to buy the card. It is the buyer's responsibility to get all the information they can(if they desire) to know what they are buying. If they did not(which we dont know), then it is they're responsibility.

Not withstanding the obvious intent of the buyer(and the obvious BCCG intent in their grading system), the buyer will always be responsible as they made the decision to purchase.

If one were to argue that the buyer was duped by false information, agreed but they the buyer should have made sure there was some way to back out of this(i.e. guaranteed return policy).

I agree with posters, the likely lack of ethics of seller as well as the BCCG grading system(not of any use to those on this forum). And I agree, it is BAD.

It is possible as FUBAR says, that person is happy with their purchase as is.

[hunterdutchess]

They can keep the BCCG system just make it:

BCCG 1: POOR OR BETTER
BCCG 2: GOOD OR BETTER
BCCG 3: VG OR BETTER
BCCG 5: EX OR BETTER
BCCG 7: NM OR BETTER
BCCG 9: MINT OR BETTER

No more 10's making people think the card is a gem. If they would have done this in the first place there would be no issues. Come on BECKETT!

Examples:
Howe RC BCCG:http://cgi.ebay.com/1951-Parkhurst-GORDIE-HOWE-Rookie-Wings-BGS-BVG-BCCG-8-/360256769812?pt=US_Hockey_Trading_Cards&hash=item53e0fa0f14#ht_529wt_905
Howe RC PSA:http://cgi.ebay.com/1951-Gordie-Howe-Parkhurst-ROOKIE-CARD-PSA-5-RARE-RC-/270664006072?pt=US_Hockey_Trading_Cards&hash=item3f04d4f9b8#ht_500wt_1156

$1600 MORE FOR THE SAME CARD? The seller puts BVG BGS BCCG and then the buyer sees a big 8 in there new nice looking BCCG holders.

Also look at these Jordan RC:http://cgi.ebay.com/1986-86-87-FLEER-57-MICHAEL-JORDAN-RC-BGS-BCCG-9-/250693485045?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item3a5e7f01f5#ht_500wt_922
http://cgi.ebay.com/1986-Fleer-Michael-Jordan-Rookie-57-BCCG-9-/290499401078?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item43a31d1576#ht_500wt_1156
NM Jordan RC selling for $600+ when you can get a NM 7 for:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHAEL-JORDAN-RC-1986-1987-FLEER-PREMIER-PSA-7-NM-57-/300493514221?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item45f6cf25ed#ht_500wt_1156

But there BCCG is making $$$ screw the buyers because they did not do there homework. BS.

[oldjudge]

This is why I would never buy a Beckett graded card or have a card graded by Beckett.