Hassan Sign on eBay - Cobb/Mathewson

[CarltonHendricks]

<img src="http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc120/CarltonHendricks/HassanSignSmall.jpg">
18 1/2" x 13"
Did anyone get a load of the sign above that went off on eBay last Wend. March 10th?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320496573411&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

..."The display measures a large 18 1/2'' x 13''. It is made of thick die-cut cardboard."...

Naturally I assumed it was a repro of the real thing you see below, that sold in the 2006 REA, which measures 40 x 60 inches and sold for $98,600.00. I recall there were some repros of it and this was probably one of them....I guess...There is a small question about it though....the one that sold on eBay has a white rectangular box that says "A Famous Play" under Mathewson's chin...which the REA one doesn't have...What's that all about? As I recall, I thought the repros were identical to the REA one...maybe I'm wrong though. Based on the photo of the one eBay one, it looks fake...sort of faded. But photos are inconclusive of course.

Can anyone confirm the eBay one is a repro?

<img src="http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc120/CarltonHendricks/HassanSign-1.jpg">

[Bridwell]

There was a large newspaper ad back in the 1910 era that pictured the Hassan sign and advertised the cigarettes. My wild guess is that someone took the newspaper ad, which had similar pastel colors, and glued it to a board or created a reproduction onto cardboard.

Ron R

[perezfan]

From Ohio, too...

[barrysloate]

Just look at the difference in color and clarity between the REA example and the one on ebay, and that should answer your question.

[perezfan]

* From Ohio
* No Return Policy
* Washed out colors
* All feedback listed as "private"
* Poor feedback rating

Just too many "red flags" to believe it could possibly be real...

[base_ball]

Somewhere I have the advertisement for the reproductions of this poster. This was about 10 years ago. They were of very high quality, came in several sizes (roughly proportional to the original 40x60), and were not cheap. Nice touch to fade/age the item to add to its "authenticity."

[GrayGhost]

As we say in autographs, a 100 pct fake, or forgery, or "reproduction" if you will.

[CarltonHendricks]

I emailed the seller to see if they had any more of the signs...turned out to be Rick from Pawn Stars...said he'd check with some guy named Kevin to see if he had any more from his grandfathers barn....

Seriously...nothing I've read here is concrete evidence one way or the other...a faded appearance doesn't necessarily mean anything. The newspaper ad Ron Price advised of is very enlightening, thanks. That seems like the only answer of where the white rectangular box that says "A Famous Play" would have originated from.

If it's fake, which I lean toward, it seems like a pretty ambitious project to make them...It's die cut so it would have had to have been made by a professional graphics outfit (China)...or someone would have to be very good with an exacto knife. Thanks also to Joseph for the info on the repros he's seen.

The seller's feedback isn't private..which would have been the kiss of death...and his 98.1% positive feedback isn't wholly incriminating...but the stuff he's been selling over the last 15 days looks a little fishy...like the Negro League broadside.

The fact it didn't get torn to shreds with conclusive evidence here is interesting in it's self...it's a jungle out there..be careful!

[drc]

It's safe to say it's a reproduction. Note that the seller never claims that it is old, vintage or original.

[ctownboy]

My take?

If it is something that old, that large and has those two players on it and it only sells for $197.50, IT IS FAKE!!!!

Look, if it is on eBay and a myriad number of people can see it, then chances are, a FEW people would take a flyer on it being real and bid it up higher IF they thought they could turn around and put it in a major auction and sell it for much more. I mean, who WOULDN'T spend $500 dollars on something if they could turn around and flip it for $5,000 dollars (or more).

That didn't happen. Plus, I have seen signs like these come up before.

David

[perezfan]

Carlton...

The lingering 1% chance that it is real definitely does eat away at us, as collectors. And to your point, most (if not all) of the cons are just circumstantial. But when you put the facts all together, you have a pretty clear answer.

Plus, the seller never pictured the back, which seems fishy. No mention of an easel-back or other mounting device. And the corners/borders do not show proper aging... one would expect more rounding of the botttom corners as well as various edge faults.

None of this is described by the seller. Normally on an authentic piece of this magnitude, there would be a dozen photos, including close-ups of the key features. The one single distant photo served as a tip-off to me, that it's a reproduction. Plus (to David's point) the seller made no claims as to its authenticity.

But still that 1% chance will drive us nuts :eek:

[drc]

When I say there's 99% chance something is fake, some people will think "So he's saying there is a chance it's real."

I would say there's 99% chance it's a fake. That's the best I will do without seeing it in person. Read into the remaining 1% as you wish.

[CarltonHendricks]

The key to fully comprehending this piece is examining it in person, which we can't. Based on the aspects we've hashed over here it's most likely a reproduction. I would say the most incriminating evidence would be the sellers treatment. The fact it's die cut precludes it from being a Kinko's color copy anyone could make with little effort...and puts it in an advanced reproduction category. The question then becomes, was it intended to deceive or was it intended just as a neat novelty. Is the faded appearance from poor photography or was it fatigued to deceive? Who made it, where was it made? how many were made? The science of how this came to be is interesting and it's good for us to examine if for nothing else just to be familiar with reproductions. Initially when I first posted the thread, I didn't know what useful info I'd garner...ideally it would have been nice if someone would have said..."oh yeah I had those made years ago just for fun". Then we could have gotten to the bottom of the who what where. But we have what we have from our community, and I'd say Net54 is probably the best place on the planet to discuss it based on the collective experience here.

[perezfan]

I just confirmed that Helmar Brewing had these Signs made up to go along with the Cap Anson Padlocks. 40 of these were manufactured last summer.

JK... sure would have made for some nice closure, though! ;)

[ctownboy]

Carlton,

Go to eBay and look at seller ACOFIND.

This person is from Muncie, Indiana and is KNOWN for selling fake items. PLENTY of fake items. One Net54 member got burned from buying a fake Bond Bread poster and I have seen this guy sell numerous other fake items over the years.

He has sold stuff under the name theolestuff and fourducks. Some of that stuff includes; Mickey Mantle Topps Giant cards, Mickey Mantle and Hank Aaron Jello cards, Harley Davidson, Indian Motorcycle and Winchester advertising signs, Shirley Temple blue glass creamers, brown Mason jars and Dazey butter churns.

Most of this crap is not easy to reproduce (like a T206 is with a laser printer) so he HAS to be getting is somewhere (or making it himself).

I have reported him to eBay for YEARs and they do NOTHING about it even though they can go to Toolhaus.org and enter these names and SEE that buyers have complained about him selling fake items.

So, just because this piece might look real, would be hard to reproduce and the seller leaves some questions about it, that does NOT mean it IS real and that other people are passing it up because it is in the wrong category or it is too expensive for them.

Heck, I have very little money to spend on cards right now BUT if this thing were real and I could get it for $1,000 dollars and then turn around and sell it in a major auction house for much more then that, I would. I am SURE other people would too.

Scam artists are hoping (and preying) on people who have that 1% question in the back of their minds about "if" things just "might" be real.

David

[photo111]

I have one of these signs. I do not know if it is real or not. I live near White Plains, NY if anyone would like to look at it. Always been curious about it.

Michael

[MGHPro]

I have one of these signs. I do not know if it is real or not. I live near White Plains, NY if anyone would like to look at it. Always been curious about it.

Michael

Michael.
Im in Central NJ and would be glad to help you. Please contact me at Bub13@aol.com
Matt

[NYHighlanderFan]

I figured to search for an older thread with the topic I'm questioning instead of beginning a new thread altogether.

The Hassan Cigarette window display in question here looks to be identical to the ad that ran in the Philadelphia Sunday newspaper on May 20, 1912. They look identical except the window card is a larger size and the spaces between the bat handles and the Hassan banner are orange in the window ad and white in the newspaper ad. And the bottom trim was added which was not on the newspaper ad. (Whoever made this Hassan piece did a nice job on it. They just needed to put a year on it. And that's the only thing I dislike about what Helmar Beer is doing. They're making really cool new stuff look old and not putting a year on the stuff. But that's another topic.)

My question is how many original newspapers with that full color ad are known? And did it only run that one day with the Plank article below? The non-color Old Mill and Hindu T206 ads which ran in several different advertising markets and even repeated in several different papers. The ad is allegedly part of the back page of a several-page Sunday baseball suppliment.

If anyone has info on this ad, please share! Thanks and hope you all have a blessed Fourth of July!!!

One other thing...why in earlier posts in this thread is Ohio being ripped on?

[perezfan]

It's nothing against Ohio (I'm still a big Reds fan after many years removed). It is simply in reference to the fact that many reproductions and bogus items have originated there.

I haven't monitored it as much lately, but for a while it seemed that every questionable (or downright fake) piece on ebay was being sold by an Ohio-based seller.

I'm sure that others who read this can verify, and perhaps even reel off some of those sellers' names.

[Leon]

It's nothing against Ohio (I'm still a big Reds fan after many years removed). It is simply in reference to the fact that many reproductions and bogus items have originated there.

I haven't monitored it as much lately, but for a while it seemed that every questionable (or downright fake) piece on ebay was being sold by an Ohio-based seller.

I'm sure that others who read this can verify, and perhaps even reel off some of those sellers' names.

For whatever reason Ohio seems to be where a large percentage of fakes and repros come from. The only fake E94 overprint I have ever seen came from there as well as an Old Put E98 fake. I think fraudsters clamor to Ohio for the weather, or something :confused:.

[NYHighlanderFan]

okay enough about my home state.

Anything else about that newspaper advertisement itself?

[patrick7776]

I just confirmed that Helmar Brewing had these Signs made up to go along with the Cap Anson Padlocks. 40 of these were manufactured last summer.

JK... sure would have made for some nice closure, though! ;)

I have a sign like the one that was offered in the ebay auction, i bought mine on ebay a couple months ago and i thought i would be able to flip it, i did not know the controversy that surrounded this piece.

I have examined this sign carefully and it is old, it looks old and smells old, and it is not a repo from the newspaper ad, because it is not the same as the newspaper ad, as my hi res scans will prove.

I also contacted Helmar Brewing a couple months ago, and this is their statement regarding this piece (this is a direct copy of the original, we dont do copies.)

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8613/mineaf.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/mineaf.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
And the card is further away from the bat

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3599/newspaperp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/newspaperp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/4213/cobb2.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/34/cobb2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2832/coob1.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/coob1.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8017/mathwson.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/mathwson.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3987/mathwson2.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/mathwson2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

and here is the back

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8505/backmg.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/backmg.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

the photos are bigger then they pop up on image shack, so it the thumbnail and when the pic pops up, right click mouse and hit view image, and the hit the magnifying icon.

[canjond]

Patrick - hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it does not look real to me. I have to admit that it is better than most fakes you see, which are unquestionably hand cut, and yours does appear to have a better cut to it. But, the colors are way too washed out to be authentic. In addition, the pack just looks faked aged to me. I would say 99% chance it's a copy. The best persn you could speak to would be Rob Lifson at Robert Edward Auctions. Shoot him an email with your scans. He's handled the real sign... if anyone can tell you whether it's good or not, he can. If it is good, you're looking at $100k or so.

[patrick7776]

Patrick - hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it does not look real to me. I have to admit that it is better than most fakes you see, which are unquestionably hand cut, and yours does appear to have a better cut to it. But, the colors are way too washed out to be authentic. In addition, the pack just looks faked aged to me. I would say 99% chance it's a copy. The best persn you could speak to would be Rob Lifson at Robert Edward Auctions. Shoot him an email with your scans. He's handled the real sign... if anyone can tell you whether it's good or not, he can. If it is good, you're looking at $100k or so.

If you read the article on Robert Edward Auctions site, they say that their piece was touched up, come on, they have ty Cobb looking like some sort of Jezebel.
i stand by this piece and would have any expert look at it.
The person you suggest to look at it, i would not let expertize it.

[Matthew H]

Woooooooow

[khkco4bls]

patrick,( expertise!)

[patrick7776]

patrick,( expertise!)

expertize - definition of expertize by the Free Online Dictionary ...
www.thefreedictionary.com/expertize - CachedSimilar
US to act as an expert or give an expert opinion (on). How to thank TFD for its existence?

[canjond]

Unfortunately it's still a reproduction... no matter who you have look it at. But, if you enjoy it, keep it as display piece.

[patrick7776]

where is your proof?

[canjond]

Well best of luck with it.

Please do keep us aprised when you find an expert... any expert, who says it's an original.

[patrick7776]

All I was asking is what makes you say its a reproduction?

[patrick7776]

It can not be hand cut, because its on some type wood or real hard cardboard, you would need a saw to cut out the design.

[canjond]

All I was asking is what makes you say its a reproduction?

Just some of the red flags on this piece:

- Color is washed out. An original would NEVER have this type of color.
- Back is unmistakenly "fake" aged.
- From your scans, it's evident that this sign is printed in a dot-matrix pattern. Anything from that era CANNOT be dot-matrix... dot-matrix did not exist (first dot-matrix printer was introduced in 1970).
- Purchased on eBay. Collectors scour eBay... if there was even a remote chance it was real, it would have sold for a minimum of $50k.
- Size is wrong. Yours is too small.
- REA has told you its no good. Regardless of whether you consider Rob an expert or not, pretty much the entire vintage collecting world does consider Rob to be an expert and they will listen to his opinion (especially considering he has handled the real signed before).

[patrick7776]

A paper from August 15, 1913,
From the government chronicling America site.
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045487/1913-08-15/ed-1/seq-8/;words=Ty+Cobb+COBB+TY?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=ty+cobb&y=14&x=18&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/9830/image681x432from363407t.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/image681x432from363407t.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8338/thumbnailsp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/thumbnailsp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Is that a dot matrix printer from the 70s?

[Leon]

Patrick
You have every right to question anyone. Jon laid out his reasons very well. It's a copy. Accept it, keep it as a display piece if you wish, realize the truth and move on. take care

ps...btw, Helmar even told you it's a copy!!! (which means not a real one)

[murphusa]

No but it is a print made with a metal plate that had been used over and over causing a buildup on the plate

[oriolesbb6]

Nice display piece-not quite a flipper however but I'm no expertizer........