Here's another beauty...

[perezfan]

Well, this one just ended at $480.88 (with 28 Bids). Who here believes the winning bidder has good intentions, and just wanted a Ball that looks authentic (which he could never otherwise afford).

And who thinks this Ball will end up somewhere else (Major Auction, Local Auction, Craig's List, Coach's Corner, Charity Auction?) Sorry... couldn't resist that last one!

Granted, the ebay seller disclosed the fact that it's a replica. But this one is so well executed that I wonder if PSA's Quick Opinion service would pass it. My guess is that you have to examine it in person, to tell that it's bogus...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290406423115&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[RichardSimon]

Why does ebay allow this to continue?
This is such a dangerous practice,,,
There is certainly a chance that the winner of this (and thanks to ebay, that person remains a secret) will try to pass it off as legit.

--

[Fuddjcal]

wait till I list my fake Mantle on e-bay next week. "Drunken Clubhouse version with Scoreboard COA". Get an authentic Shakey Shantle, very rare drunken clubhouse version replica in mint condition" They have done nothing to stop it and 9 for every ten mantle, dimaggio, and Williams is fake. The GAI Global fake stuff is rampant and idiots think that stuff is real because they are still on their authenication list. They are criminals just like Coaches corner and thay need to be investigated too.

It is sickening, but apparently, it will continue on e-bay because they need the listings.

[henson1855]

Tough to pass off a modern Rawlings 9-11 baseball,as a vintage ball,I personally think the balls this guy does look amazing,you can speculate on the intentions of the buyer but c'mon not everyone is out to ruin the hobby or get over on someone maybe the buyer doesn't have 20k laying around to buy a real one,on the other hand if someone tried to pass this off as authentic it's a rawlings baseball the sigs are stamped not real hard to figure out.I have been searching for an Addie Joss and a Willie Keeler autograph for many years,my problem is not the cost of thes pieces it's the availability,to my knowledge a total of two Joss autographs have surfaced and are now in private collections,Keeler is nearly as scarce,I had this guy do one of each for me on baseballs,they look amazing,and display nice among my authentic baseballs,does that mean I am not a true collector or I am damaging the hobby,hardly,the purist might frown upon this but so what you should be able to buy and collect what you want. I think people who sell reprints and pass them off to people as anything but,are doing great damage to our hobby and we should keep calling them out,just as I am a true believer in buyer beware, a little bit of basic knowledge about what you are buying doesn't hurt either.

[FUBAR]

is this what you call an "Immaculate inscription" ??

Whats next a Ruth auto from the UD Ruth Heroes cards??

[GrayGhost]

Tough to pass off a modern Rawlings 9-11 baseball,as a vintage ball,I personally think the balls this guy does look amazing,you can speculate on the intentions of the buyer but c'mon not everyone is out to ruin the hobby or get over on someone maybe the buyer doesn't have 20k laying around to buy a real one,on the other hand if someone tried to pass this off as authentic it's a rawlings baseball the sigs are stamped not real hard to figure out.I have been searching for an Addie Joss and a Willie Keeler autograph for many years,my problem is not the cost of thes pieces it's the availability,to my knowledge a total of two Joss autographs have surfaced and are now in private collections,Keeler is nearly as scarce,I had this guy do one of each for me on baseballs,they look amazing,and display nice among my authentic baseballs,does that mean I am not a true collector or I am damaging the hobby,hardly,the purist might frown upon this but so what you should be able to buy and collect what you want. I think people who sell reprints and pass them off to people as anything but,are doing great damage to our hobby and we should keep calling them out,just as I am a true believer in buyer beware, a little bit of basic knowledge about what you are buying doesn't hurt either.

But Mike, you are a guy who is a collector, and will not pass the stuff into the hobby. The issue is that many people out there ARE the type to pass it off as real, esp such a convincing item. The type of ball, yeah, but we see a lot of "unknown balls" in the Hobby. Am I too cynical? Maybe, but with all of the negative stuff in the hobby, and in this case, so many bidders for a "replica Ruth", Id say at least some of them who bid had evil intentions.

Id rather wait for a cheap Ruth cut or a lesser condition ball w top shelf authentication like JSA or PSA, than buy that if I was a collector. Again tho, finances are an issue, and availability in your case w Joss and Keeler. Very difficult issue indeed, just means even more vigilance is needed when buying rare and/or expensive signatures.

[RichardSimon]

Mike - here is a quote from the guys ad on ebay:
"Signatures and logos are transferred onto the ball made from original images of Babe Ruth & Lou Gehrig signatures"
Where did he get the original images of Joss and Keeler?
With so few authentic ones around, and more forgeries of them out there than authentic ones, do you know for sure that the baseballs you have are replicas of authentic signatures?
Did you supply him with authentic images?
--

[Scott Garner]

BTW- On the topic of Addie Joss signatures, I have a question for all of the members. Does anyone have what they believe is a legitimate exemplar of Joss's sig? I collect the signatures of ALL pitchers that threw a no-hitter. I was just wondering if anyone could even produce an exemplar as a reference point since the likelihood of owning one is not only cost prohibitive, but in all likelyhood a near impossibility. Thanks!

[keithsky]

Chris Morales and Stat have exemplers for a Joss autograph, Just ask them or Coachs Corner since there in the auctions every so often. They have everybody even Sitting Bull.

[henson1855]

Scott,I will email you a pic of Addle's sig.a book will be out late this year hopefully, by Ron Keurajian with an example of every HOF'ER'S autograph,from what I understand,it has taken years to put together,and there will be one or both of the Joss sigs that have surfaced,so I am looking forward to it coming out Ron emailed me and said he was talking to publishers and hopefully it will be out by Christmas.

[David Atkatz]

Chris Morales and Stat have exemplers for a Joss autograph, Just ask them or Coachs Corner since there in the auctions every so often. They have everybody even Sitting Bull.

Actually, Sitting Bull's autograph is not uncommon. While performing with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, Sitting Bull would sell autographed cards to patrons.

(The above should in no way be interpreted as an endorsemant of Cris Morales, Stat Authentic, or Coach's Corner.)

[danc]

By saying that's it's not "not" uncommon, you are saying that it's "ordinary" or "widespread". How many Sitting Bull autographs have you owned or seen?

Childlike signature = fraudulent in many cases with Sitting Bull and sure he played the role of Bob Feller in the late 19th Century (as did Geronimo, Annie Oakley and even the Red Baron sold signatures), but how many of these actually survived over the 120-125 years?

RR Auctions have sold eight signatures in fourteen years and average out to about $4,000 per ($8,000 for playing cards).

As far as these exemplars go of 19th Century and early 20th Century players, these authenticators have all invested in the Sports Collector's Digest (figures that they published it, huh?) Mark Allen Baker book of Hall Of Fame signatures. Wait until Ron's book comes out and you will see that Dan Brouthers didn't sign his name like a nine year old.

And Ron is still missing a few for his book and he won't use examples from the Coach Factory for the book.

DanC

[Scott Garner]

Hey Mike,
Thanks for the info about the upcoming book that will include exemplars of all HOF sigs. I'll look for it!

[David Atkatz]

By saying that's it's not "not" uncommon, you are saying that it's "ordinary" or "widespread". How many Sitting Bull autographs have you owned or seen?

By "not uncommon," I actually did mean "common." (A double negative will do that.)

Sitting Bull's is a reasonably common signature. If you want one, you can have one. And exemplars are not hard to find. I've never owned one because I don't collect Western autographs. But I have seen many. And by "many," I mean a number much larger than three.

As I said above, I am not defending Coach's. Their Sitting Bull is garbage, as are virtually all their autographs. And if Morales or Stat has authenticated a piece, I wouldn't touch it.

But I have been collecting autographs seriously for more than forty years, have quite a decent collection (even if I do say so myself), and the fact is that Sitting Bull's signature is not rare. Many, many of those cards survived.

[danc]

Common actually means ordinary. You make it sound like we are talking about Hank Greenberg.

Even Heritage has only sold a handful over the last five years with one signed photo selling for over $12,000, none on eBay and I searched five big historical autograph sites and none in their inventory.

I still disagree with you and I have been buying and collecting for over 30 years.

If they are so common, find me three for sale...somewhere, anywhere. :-)

DanC

[GrayGhost]

The only problem with a cool book like that is that the Roach's will likely use it, or their suppliers, to attempt forgeries of the really rare guys, like Galvin, Chesbro, Kelly.. Oh, wait....:p

[pscolgrafs]

With all due respect David, I don't understand how you can make that argument that SB's signatures are common, when they seldom show up for sale, collectors of that genre have a tough time locating the signature and there are none on eBay, ever.

If they were in fact common, they would be all over the place and readily available for collectors. There would be 20-25 on eBay per week and catalogs would not have one a year, but dozens and dozens. I would consider the signature rare, and I don't mind jumping into this debate

[David Atkatz]

With all due respect David, I don't understand how you can make that argument that SB's signatures are common, when they seldom show up for sale, collectors of that genre have a tough time locating the signature and there are none on eBay, ever.

If they were in fact common, they would be all over the place and readily available for collectors. There would be 20-25 on eBay per week and catalogs would not have one a year, but dozens and dozens. I would consider the signature rare, and I don't mind jumping into this debate

They don't "seldom show up for sale." You can find one or two (or more) each year or so. I consider that "common"; i.e. if you want one, you can get one.

On the other hand, there are many serious collectors of HoF autographs (virtually all, I daresay) who don't have a Keeler or a Joss. And they never will.

Those autographs are rare.

You provide the funds, Dan, and I'll get you a Sitting Bull.

[David Atkatz]

Here's one for you now, Dan, if you're interested:

http://www.historical-autographs.com/full-description.aspx?ItemID=20000014&title=SITTING+BULL

We started talking about Sitting Bull's autograph yesterday. I found you one today. Hardly rare.

[thekingofclout]

Here's one for you now, Dan, if you're interested:

http://www.historical-autographs.com/full-description.aspx?ItemID=20000014&title=SITTING+BULL

We started talking about Sitting Bull's autograph yesterday. I found you one today. Hardly rare.

I'd say you've made your point David!

[RichardSimon]

From the seller of the Sitting Bull:
"Bold signature on a card measuring 3 inches wide by 1 3/4 inch high. A fine example of a rare autograph. $12,500"
--

[David Atkatz]

From the seller of the Sitting Bull:
"Bold signature on a card measuring 3 inches wide by 1 3/4 inch high. A fine example of a rare autograph. $12,500"
--

Gee, Richard. I'd a thought you understood the concept of "sales pitch."

(It's so rare that people are falling all over themselves trying to buy it.)

[FUBAR]

Maybe Sitting Bull is a secretarial signature!! lol