T206 "Brown" Old Mill Southern League Back...Legit?

[usernamealreadytaken]

Some hold the "brown" Old Mill SL back as one of the most coveted and rare T206 backs. I may get clobbered here, but from the ones I have seen, they just appear faded. Am I outta touch on this? I mean, there are a number of cards whose colors (namely the backgrounds) seem washed or otherwise off-tone, and those where the name/team printing is very light vs. some cards where it is very deep and bold. Could it be the "brown" OMSL backs were printed just before the ink was replenished?

[quinnsryche]

Oddly enough there is a new one for sale on ebay right now. I don't know how to link ebay stuff on here so maybe a "techie" could do that please. The # is 400105595192. It's a Helm SGC A (which the seller explains brown Old Mills were hand cut hence the A grade - is that true?). Oh, it's also 10K. Someone please comment on that also if you would.
Thanks!

[barrysloate]

There has always been a debate regarding the Lenox and Old Mill cards over whether there is a brown version, or merely the black ink faded. There are in fact genuine brown variations, but you need to look at the backs closely to spot them. And in both cases, the brown is quite rare.

[DixieBaseball]

You should not get clobbered for your observation as it it a keen one. There have been a legion of folks for years that have thought the brown back is a off shade of black. There are folks on both sides of this argument... I have seen a few of these with my naked eye and I have never been convinced they are in fact brown. The ones I have seen look to be faded black, soft black, or possibly brownish-light black tone. I do believe there are different shades of the black which actually look more brown than black, but simply believe there was a few that got out the door that were "off black."

[JerryTotino]

I have owned 2 examples of a Brown Old Mill back and they are easily identified when you see them in person. They are not faded black as most collectors may think. All the examples I am aware of are hand cut. Thus, I believe these backs were never meant to be issued, but rather were a mistake and/or an experiment.

Jerry

[drdduet]

Agree with Jerry.

They are legit, just very rare. Most collectors who have not seen a legit brown Old Mill in person speculate at some point that maybe they are just faded black versions...as I did once upon a time. But once you see an authentic brown Old Mill and compare it to a faded black version there is no question. The problem is in finding an authentic brown one.

[Jim VB]

Oddly enough there is a new one for sale on ebay right now. I don't know how to link ebay stuff on here so maybe a "techie" could do that please. The # is 400105595192. It's a Helm SGC A (which the seller explains brown Old Mills were hand cut hence the A grade - is that true?). Oh, it's also 10K. Someone please comment on that also if you would.
Thanks!


Link as requested.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400105595192






In this case the grading company is solid. The seller is solid. I have no idea on the price. As mentioned, they're pretty rare so it's hard to find comparisons.

[frankb22]

Is it true that the brown backs were all hand cut?

[DixieBaseball]

Guys - I do see the difference and have seen a handful of these over the years. I am still not convinced they are not a off color of black, with some serious fading, or botched black... There is definitely a difference in the colors and yes, it looks like a different shade from the black, but it is not appear to me to be a true brown color. It looks faded to me. Always has... I know there is a lot of difference of opinion on these... I certainly respect everyone's opinion on it, but I don't think we will ever definitively know... Also, I don't believe these are all handcut as indicated. I have seen examples that don't appear to be handcut, but cut from factory in normal process.

[tedzan]

The first press runs of T206 Southern Leaguer's were printed with Brown HINDU and OLD MILL backs.
Therefore, I can imagine that in the course of printing these two backs, there was a mix-up in the ink
application.....resulting in Brown OLD MILL's.

If this theory of mine explains the cause of these extremely rare Brown OLD MILL backs, then it would
apply to ONLY 34 of the 48 Southern League cards in the set. As, the other 14 - So. Lge. cards were
not printed during the Brown HINDU press runs.

To date, the few Southern Leaguers with Brown OLD MILL backs that I have seen are from this group
of 34..........

Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard
Jordan
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Smith (Atlanta)
Thornton
Violat

Hey you guys with the Brown OLD MILL's, let's see if your cards are NOT any of these 34 players ?


TED Z

[JerryTotino]

Frank,

As mentioned in my prior post both examples I owned were hand cut. In addition, I know of about 5 or 6 others that are also hand cut. Thus, I have never seen or been able to confirm a factory cut example of this back. A few examples look factory cut at first glance, but are trimmed upon inspection. I would love to see a factory cut example if someone owns one.

Jerry

[usernamealreadytaken]

Looking at the large scans above, the entire back of the "brown" ink card is, well, browner...

[frankb22]

If they are all hand cut then did perhaps a small number get inked
with the wrong color and noticed right away? That might explain why
they never made it to the cutting process because they were set aside
and someone cut them at a later time.

[DixieBaseball]

There is a difference in the Brown Hindu Color and the Old Mill (Brown) color. This is why I have never been able to say they are OM Brown b/c while they are different color than the OM Blacks, they don't take on a true Brown tone. They are off Black or faded black or washed out black that takes on a light, light brown tone. I really stuggle to see how these are brown. See pics below :

[cfc1909]

1473714738



1473914740

[DixieBaseball]

See scan of 2 OM Blacks and 1 Brown Hindu. I used these 2 OM Blacks b/c the OM Black on far right is rich, vibrant solid black and the middle OM Black is starting to fade a bit to a washed out black. I think the brown backs are further washing of the black backs. See the pics below...

[cfc1909]

1474114742

[cfc1909]

1474314744

[DixieBaseball]

Jim - Your OM Brown Revelle next to my Hindu Brown Ellam :

[cfc1909]

1475014751

[tedzan]

So far guys, the various shades of Brown are understandable. I've seen similar varyimg shades of Brown HINDU's.

More significantly, the Southern League players you have noted are all on my list of the 34 expected subjects.

Yet, my theory can still be proven wrong with a Southern Leaguer with a Brown OLD MILL that is not on my list.

Let's hear of more of these very rare cards.


TED Z

[DixieBaseball]

Ted - Your theory is an interesting one to me. Just so I am clear, are you saying b/c there is only 34 (out of 48) Southern League Brown Hindu's, there would never be a Brown Old Mill outside this group of 34? If so, I am buying the brown old mill argument. I wish the tint of brown was definitive on the Old Mills, but is has that faded or washed look. It is obviously not as true a brown color as Brown Hindu. I have several brown hindu's and they all look ripe brown. The Old Mill's take on the look of the Broad leaf, but a slight shade different. The BL's look more light black to me. I could be color blind to brown...

[JP]

It seems as though every legit Brown Old Mill seems to have the same printing mark on the back. Each corner has the three loops, and in the bottom right corner, above the 3 loops is a little splash of extra ink on the double lines...anyone else seeing this?

[toppcat]

The one Tom Barlage has on Ebay looks legit. I can't see how that shade of brown is faded black. Wasn't there a theory that the brown OM's were run through just after say a Brown Hindu run? A lot of the hand cut T206's seem like the only things left at ATC, don't they? It makes sense they were rejects.

[rhettyeakley]

nm

[tedzan]

Regarding your question in Post #22......

These 34 Southern Leaguers were printed with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs.

Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard
Jordan
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Smith (Atlanta)
Thornton
Viola

These 14 Southern Leaguers were printed with only OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350......I would be quite
surprised if any of these show up with a Brown OLD MILL back.

Bastian
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King
Lentz
Miller
Orth
Paige
Rockenfeld
Seitz
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
White (Houston)


Hey guys, there a lot of impressive Brown OLD MILL shown here. How about identifying their FRONT's ?

Thanks,


TED Z

[tiger8mush]

so do you guys think that it was a MISTAKE that the Brown Old Mill backs were printed with brown ink and were intended to be printed with black ink? If so, do you then classify them as a variation, or seperate back, error, how?

[JerryTotino]

Ted,

The 2 examples I once owned were Thornton and Revelle. I think there are 2 or 3 known examples of a Revelle Brown Old Mill.

I am also aware of a Sid Smith (Atlanta).



Rob,

I think the Brown Old Mills were either an error or experiment. As stated in an earlier post they appear to be all hand cut. I'm not sure how to classify a T206 back that might never have actually been officially issued.

Jerry

[toppcat]

Ted,

I think the Brown Old Mills were either an error or experiment. As stated in an earlier post they appear to be all hand cut. I'm not sure how to classify a T206 back that might never have actually been officially issued.

Jerry

Do the backs of the brown and blacks match up if superimposed one over the other? I assume they would. That could indicate the end of a Brown Hindu run occurred and then the next batch was started to kill off some ink or they ran a few for a test before they used them for scrap. If sheets were stacked and moved, even a short distance, it would make sense to use scrap sheets on the top and bottom of each stack to prevent damage to the cards meant to be cut and inserted into the packs, a "scrap sandwich" if you will. I really wonder if that's where a lot of the handcut oddities come from, not just in T206 but even Topps stuff in the 60's.

[frohme]

The same brown-back phenomenon happens with the T207s as well, though there is not a known Hindu-like suspect to blame for print-run overlaps. Various board members have found and shown them over the last few years.

As with the comments on the OMS browns, the print is very obviously different in person, and seem not to be related to fading in any way. The Schaefer below is the best scan of that to me. While that card is obviously hand-cut, the Gardner below it is apparently not.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x51/frohme/BrownBack.jpg

[tedzan]

Identified here are the 5 brown OLD MILL's, so far accounted for.

Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam.........................Brown OLD MILL
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm.........................Brown OLD MILL
Hickman
Hooker
Howard
Jordan
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle.......................Brown OLD MILL
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Smith (Atlanta)............Brown OLD MILL
Thornton.....................Brown OLD MILL
Violat

How about it guys, any more of these out there ?


TED Z

[cfc1909]

you can add Paige and Bernhard

[tedzan]

Thanks Jim

Identified here are the 7 brown OLD MILL's, so far accounted for.

Bay
Bernhard....................Brown OLD MILL
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam.........................Brown OLD MILL
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm.........................Brown OLD MILL
Hickman
Hooker
Howard
Jordan
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige.........................Brown OLD MILL
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle.......................Brown OLD MILL
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Smith (Atlanta)............Brown OLD MILL
Thornton....................Brown OLD MILL
Violat

How about it guys, any more of these out there ?


TED Z

[rebelsart]

I used to own these T206 with brown Old Mill backs:
Thornton (same one Jerry used to own).
Kiernan

Those are the only two that I can remember. Both are from nearly 10 years ago.

Art M.

[edhans]

Rhett,
I found one of those violet E254s a couple years ago. I hadn't seen one previously. As you know the difference is even more pronounced when you view them in person. I sent it in to SGC to be slabbed. They acknowledged that the ink was a different color, but wouldn't put it on the flip until it was listed in the SCD catalog. I searched high and low for months to find a mate to it. Finally, a board member found three more at the Chicago National. I sent the 4 to Don Fluckinger last year and asked that the variation be acknowledged in the 2010 book. Check the write-up and you'll see the results.

[tedzan]

I think you posted the above post in the wrong thread.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks Art M and thanks to several Net54 readers, we now have 10 confirmed Brown OLD MILL
Southern Leaguers.

Bay
Bernhard....................Brown OLD MILL
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam.........................Brown OLD MILL
Foster
Fritz
Greminger..................Brown OLD MILL
Guiheen
Helm.........................Brown OLD MILL
Hickman
Hooker
Howard
Jordan
Kiernan......................Brown OLD MILL
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige.........................Brown OLD MILL
Perdue
Persons
Reagan.......................Brown OLD MILL
Revelle........................Brown OLD MILL
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Smith (Atlanta).............Brown OLD MILL
Thornton.....................Brown OLD MILL
Violat

Now were on a roll....hey guys, any more of these out there ?


TED Z

[edhans]

Hi Ted. I was replying to Rhett's post (#25 above, since edited). A thousand apologies for the hijack.

[tedzan]

At this point, with as many as 10 confirmed Brown OLD MILL Southern Leaguer's, I think there is a fair probability that there will
be more reported.

As far as them being legit, in my opinion they are the result of mistaken printing; therefore, they should be considered as "scrap".

I will be posting further information on this topic later tonight (or tomorrow). Meanwhile, keep the inputs rolling in.


TED Z

[triwak]

Guys, I think JP's post #23 about the little splash of brown ink in the bottom right corner might be VERY significant! It appears on every brown Old Mill in this thread, although I'm having a hard time seeing it on the graded Helm in post #7. If this is a "real" marker, it would be a big deal, no?! Why no comments on this?

[DixieBaseball]

Clear up some confusion re/ ink spot - Jim's Revelle OM Brown is the only scan w/ ink spot. The other scan in this thread (Helm), does not have one. Also, I think Ted inadvertantly counted Brown Hindu Ellam as a Brown Old Mill reverse. Jim and I were comparing color backs from Brown Hindu, Brown Old Mill, and Black Old Mill. We did this in a handful of post, including the BL and Lenox scans. Ted, unless some one claims a Ellam Brown Old Mill, strike it from your list. Also, JP's point is a good one, but unfortunately I think he is looking at the same Brown Old Mill Revelle card in several post. Maybe I missed something, so please double check me, but I think there are only 2 Brown Old Mill Scans in this entire thread. Obviously the scans coupled with many SL names, have contributed to the confusion.

[cfc1909]

Guys, I think JP's post #23 about the little splash of brown ink in the bottom right corner might be VERY significant! It appears on every brown Old Mill in this thread, although I'm having a hard time seeing it on the graded Helm in post #7. If this is a "real" marker, it would be a big deal, no?! Why no comments on this?

Jeremy is correct-all the same back scan. I have scans of 3 different and about 4 to 6 coming. I only own one-the Revelle Jerry used to own -the ONE with the mark of ink in the corner.

[toppcat]

Guys, I think JP's post #23 about the little splash of brown ink in the bottom right corner might be VERY significant! It appears on every brown Old Mill in this thread, although I'm having a hard time seeing it on the graded Helm in post #7. If this is a "real" marker, it would be a big deal, no?! Why no comments on this?

I think most of the above scans are of the same back, need to blow the tops ones up some more though.

[tedzan]

Thanks Jeremy
I misconstrued youy post (I was dazzled by all those pictures). I have unconfirmed Ellam as a Brown OLD MILL.

So far, we have 10 confirmed Brown OLD MILL's

Bay
Bernhard....................Brown OLD MILL
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster........................Brown OLD MILL
Fritz
Greminger...................Brown OLD MILL
Guiheen
Helm..........................Brown OLD MILL
Hickman
Hooker
Howard
Jordan
Kiernan......................Brown OLD MILL
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige.........................Brown OLD MILL
Perdue
Persons
Reagan.......................Brown OLD MILL
Revelle........................Brown OLD MILL
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Smith (Atlanta).............Brown OLD MILL
Thornton.....................Brown OLD MILL
Violat

Now were on a roll....hey guys, any more of these out there ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Foster has been reported with a Brown OLD MILL. This input has been annotated in above list.


TED Z

[cfc1909]

I forgot about Leons Mullaney

multistrike back but does have a brown Old Mill with a Young portrait also...:D

[Joshchisox08]

Are all the Browns graded Authentic ? I just won a Jack Bastian (FINALLY!) with an Old Mill Southern Back and obviously I want to believe it be the brown variation. Other than being poorly cut at the top of the card there's no tears missing paper or anything and it's still graded just Authentic. When I get the card in person I'll send you guys a pic so you can let me know what you think.

The difference between a $57 card or a $1,430 card haha. Either way I'm happy that I paid under it's value but would obviously like it to be the brown back, just not sure.

[ullmandds]

Are all the Browns graded Authentic ? I just won a Jack Bastian (FINALLY!) with an Old Mill Southern Back and obviously I want to believe it be the brown variation. Other than being poorly cut at the top of the card there's no tears missing paper or anything and it's still graded just Authentic. When I get the card in person I'll send you guys a pic so you can let me know what you think.

The difference between a $57 card or a $1,430 card haha. Either way I'm happy that I paid under it's value but would obviously like it to be the brown back, just not sure.

Good luck...but not likely its brown?

[JerryTotino]

Josh,

Yes all Brown Old Mills were hand cut.

If you post a scan when you have it that would be very helpful in confirming.

I have owned 3 examples over the years so I have a good idea of what it should look like.

Thanks,

Jerry

[Sean]

Are all the Browns graded Authentic ? I just won a Jack Bastian (FINALLY!) with an Old Mill Southern Back and obviously I want to believe it be the brown variation. Other than being poorly cut at the top of the card there's no tears missing paper or anything and it's still graded just Authentic. When I get the card in person I'll send you guys a pic so you can let me know what you think.

The difference between a $57 card or a $1,430 card haha. Either way I'm happy that I paid under it's value but would obviously like it to be the brown back, just not sure.
Josh, it's not $1,430 for a Brown OM. It's more like $10-15,000. :eek:

[Pat R]

Bastian was no print Hindu which would make it a no print with a Brown
Old Mill this one does have a brownish look to it like some other regular
southern Old Mills.

[JerryTotino]

Josh,

An example of a Brown Old Mill:

181129

Jerry