For those who fear the demise of the collectibles market may be near...

[BlueDevil89]

For those who fear the demise of the collectibles market may be near...take heart! - No economic worries here!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100222/ap_en_ot/us_superman_first_issue

[JP]

Neither seller or buyer was known....sounds like the same old crap that dealers do all of the time to tout their own cards and drive up the price. I don't believe a word of it.

[ChiefBenderForever]

It might be true, that is the Wagner of the comic world, the drummer for system of a down was shocked when he got his for 317,000 last year and was really happy about it thinking it would go much higher, so if two people really went after this one wouldn't take much to get to a cool mill. Of course I'm sure shilling goes on in the comic world as well...........

[barrysloate]

Assuming it's true, and it's certainly possible it is, it only proves that the high end of the market is alive and well. That comic book would be among the handful of best in the world.

Most collectors would be more concerned how the $100-1000 end of the market is doing. That's the range where a great many transactions take place.

[Section103]

I spent some time last night scratching my head about one simple thing - the comic's encased just like any other PSA/Beckett/SGC graded card. Now, I understand that this is the "holy grail" [/over-used cliche] of comic books and its not intended to be read or handled, but there's a fundamental flaw that I just cant get myself past - and it's that you cant READ the BOOK. I know plenty of people bemoan not being able to "touch" a graded card, but dang, at least you can still see essentially every aspect of the card. I know I need to get over it, but it just sticks in my craw.......

[mark evans]

I agree with Barry. Even if the sale is true, I don't think it says much about the strength of the collectibles market across the board.

Mark

[bijoem]

I spent some time last night scratching my head about one simple thing - the comic's encased just like any other PSA/Beckett/SGC graded card. Now, I understand that this is the "holy grail" [/over-used cliche] of comic books and its not intended to be read or handled, but there's a fundamental flaw that I just cant get myself past - and it's that you cant READ the BOOK. I know plenty of people bemoan not being able to "touch" a graded card, but dang, at least you can still see essentially every aspect of the card. I know I need to get over it, but it just sticks in my craw.......


yeah - it does seem strange to encase a book -
BUT
there are reprints available if what you want to do is read the comic.

this is a collectible / investment..... and is being certified in a certain condition and being preserved in that case.

If I was a collector - I would have no problem with grading for my key comics.

And, if I was a buyer - I would be looking for graded examples.

[whycough]

collectors often buy a cheap copy to read and keep the high end one slabbed--or you can remove it and be very careful as you handle it and resubmit when you want (saving the slip would be in order)

[barrysloate]

Comic books were made using very cheap paper. Handling them repeatedly would damage them over the long haul. If I owned a $1 million Superman comic I'd shell out a couple of bucks for a reprint and read that. I know it's frustrating but you're better off keep them out of human hands.

[Anthony S.]

Comic books were made using very cheap paper. Handling them repeatedly would damage them over the long haul. If I owned a $1 million Superman comic I'd shell out a couple of bucks for a reprint and read that. I know it's frustrating but you're better off keep them out of human hands.

That's exactly why I leave my Gutenberg Bible in the drawer and pull out my Kindle instead, when I need a dose of The Lord.

[barrysloate]

I use my Gutenberg as a doorstop...but I definitely won't read it without wearing white gloves.

[scooter729]

Ironically, I was just in the Harvard library this morning (I work at the school) and was looking at their copy of the Gutenberg bible. It has its own room in the library - impressive!

[danc]

Talking to a few comic book people, they believe that this sale is in fact legitimate.

This is the nicest copy of this comic book that has been offered publicly in the last 15 years. I believe (I could be wrong), that there are twenty slabbed copies around (most restored) and there are some wealthy collectors out there (Jerry Seinfeld?) who look at is as an investment.

It's no different than the T206 Wagner as far as it's impact on the hobby.

As far as slabbing goes, it's mixed on whether collectors like it but as noted above, pages are brittle and there are books that issue complete reproductions that are readily available at book stores.

DanC

[Jewish-collector]

I'm sure there are a bunch of wealthy comic book collectors that easily afford it. It would not suprise me if Steve Geppi of Baltimore bought it for his pop culture museum.

http://www.geppismuseum.com/

[barrysloate]

As Seinfeld watchers know Jerry is a huge Superman fan...about half the episodes have a reference to Superman. I also thought of him as the possible buyer.

[rman444]

Talking to a few comic book people, they believe that this sale is in fact legitimate.

This is the nicest copy of this comic book that has been offered publicly in the last 15 years. I believe (I could be wrong), that there are twenty slabbed copies around (most restored) and there are some wealthy collectors out there (Jerry Seinfeld?) who look at is as an investment.

DanC

The sale is legit.

There are a total of 42 CGC slabbed Action #1's in the pop report. Of the 42, 16 are restored.

There is 1 graded higher than this 8.0, which is an 8.5. This 8.0 has not hit the CGC population reports yet, so there are actually at least 43 copies slabbed.

[JP]

The sale is legit.

There are a total of 42 CGC slabbed Action #1's in the pop report. Of the 42, 16 are restored.

There is 1 graded higher than this 8.0, which is an 8.5. This 8.0 has not hit the CGC population reports yet, so there are actually at least 43 copies slabbed.

None of that supports the statement that the sale is legit. I can tell you the Wagner pop report if you'd like, but it doesn't make all Wagner auction sales legit.

[bijoem]

None of that supports the statement that the sale is legit. I can tell you the Wagner pop report if you'd like, but it doesn't make all Wagner auction sales legit.

personally....
If rman444 believes the sale was legit / enough to post that it was legit.... I believe him.

[JP]

personally....
If rman444 believes the sale was legit / enough to post that it was legit.... I believe him.

Why? Unless he himself is the buyer of the comic, what information does he have beyond all of us? Believing something has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing something.

[slidekellyslide]

I thought I read in my local paper today (yes, the actual paper edition that gets thrown on my porch in the morning :) ) that the buyer was a high profile collector in New York. That probably fits a few high profile collectors, but it may just be Jerry Seinfeld.

[JP]

Does Seinfeld even have a history of collecting ANYTHING in this hobby? I know that like Leno he is a car collector, but I've never heard of him owning any sort of collectible merchandise. Is this all just speculation because he likes Superman?

[barrysloate]

Yes, it's pure speculation. We only know two relevant facts: Seinfeld loves Superman, and he's worth nearly a billion dollars. Based on that, we speculated he could easily afford the comic if he wanted it. That doesn't mean he did buy it, or even if he wanted to buy it. We simply guessed it might be him.

[JP]

We also know that Jerry is a comic and the Superman that sold for $1 million was a comic. Comic - comic. Coincidence?

I'm sticking with my guess that no transaction ever took place...I'm a cynic by heart. And all of the Mastro shenanigans have me doubting every sale...

[barrysloate]

Well I agree with you on that. I pretty much don't believe anything I hear either. But some of the things I doubt do end up being true.

[JP]

Well I agree with you on that. I pretty much don't believe anything I hear either. But some of the things I doubt do end up being true.

Barry, I doubt that... :):):)

[terjung]

personally....
If rman444 believes the sale was legit / enough to post that it was legit.... I believe him.

I'm with you, Joe. I would tend to believe Richard as well when he makes a statement like that. He knows quite a bit more about comics than I do.

Don't get me wrong... I can be a cynic as well. It is just that when I hear someone with credibility come out with a statement like that, it tends to lend legitimacy.

The question that I might ask related to the pop report is how many of those are regrades due to pressing?

[JP]

Richard said "the sale is legit" but didn't provide any evidence or support to back up that statement. He gave no reason for me to believe it, so why should I blindly follow along? Because he knows about comics? The person who knows most about comics in the world may not have any idea whether a particular transaction took place...

[Wesley]

I'm with you, Joe. I would tend to believe Richard as well when he makes a statement like that. He knows quite a bit more about comics than I do.

Don't get me wrong... I can be a cynic as well. It is just that when I hear someone with credibility come out with a statement like that, it tends to lend legitimacy.

The question that I might ask related to the pop report is how many of those are regrades due to pressing?

Pressing is rampant in comics, but I don't think anyone has the cajones to press a copy of Action 1.

I tend to agree with you guys as well. Richard knows a lot about comics and I will take his word over someone coming out of nowhere to question the legitimacy of the sale. On the other hand, if JP has first hand knowledge or is somehow connected to Metro or Comic Connect, then he should let us know.

[rman444]

JP - you are right. I cannot provide any proof to you that the transaction took place.

Regarding pressing, I believe that this is a phenomenon that has really caught on over the past few years and mostly affects two types of comics:

1) Those that are already high grade and cannot get into a higher numerical holder due to slight waviness/bending of the surface. An example of a comic that would fit this category would be a 9.6 that is pressed to get into a 9.8 holder.

2) Those that are poorly miswrapped or curled under, where the bend of the book is not along the spine and staples. Comics that fit this category are typically golden age or early silver age. There will often be enough faults on these books that pressing to make them lay straight may not even increase their technical grade - they would however present much better.

I cannot even guess how many Action #1 books have been cracked out, pressed, and then resubmitted, but if any have, I would imagine that it would be a very small number.

[JP]

JP - you are right. I cannot provide any proof to you that the transaction took place.


Interesting, then do you mind telling us why you said "the sale is legit" so definitively? Why do you feel that a transaction far above any previous comic sale might be real? I caught some flack for questioning your statement without support, but I think it is important that we don't support what may inevitably prove to be market manipulation on the part of auction houses....

[Wesley]

Interesting, then do you mind telling us why you said "the sale is legit" so definitively? Why do you feel that a transaction far above any previous comic sale might be real? I caught some flack for questioning your statement without support, but I think it is important that we don't support what may inevitably prove to be market manipulation on the part of auction houses....


I demand that Richard provide proof by posting a photograph of himself with his new Action #1 and a copy of today's newspaper.

[terjung]

Would you similarly question Brockelmann if he stated that a sale of a high end E107 was legit? I certainly wouldn't. I would tend to believe him - even if he were unwilling or unable to demonstrate proof. The fact is that very high end collectors are often intentionally secretive about their purchases and collections. This may be for fear of theft, insurance, or for any litany of reasons. Rarely do such high end collectors care to share about their purchases or advertise that they made them. I realize that this breeds the question of whether a specific sale was legit - especially when it is outside the realm of what would be expected. In this case, the sales of lesser conditioned versions of Action #1 sell for sick money. I guess I don't know why one of the two nicest conditioned and unrestored versions of this extremely sought-after comic wouldn't be expected to go for sick money as well.

[Rob D.]

Richard,

Please provide proof that you are, indeed, Richard.

[JP]

You guys aren't paying attention. Richard already admitted that he didn't know the sale was legit. And that would also mean he didn't buy it.

Just because someone is an expert in a field doesn't mean they know the particulars of every high-end transaction.

To address your final statement, if Brockelmann said an E107 sale was legit, you would assume that he was associate with the transaction in some respect. Richard obviously has no association whatsoever with the sale of the Superman comic. Why are so many arguments on these boards filled with huge logic holes?

[terjung]

You missed the point of the analogy. Scott would not have to be party to such a sale in order to know that it happened, nor would I require him to prove his knowledge of it. Regardless, this argument is pointless. I tend to believe that the sale happened, in part, but certainly not solely due to Richard's statement. You are well within your rights to remain skeptical. /debate

Anybody like vintage baseball cards? I hear that cardboard pictures of dead guys who played baseball are highly collectible and sometimes sell for a mint.

[JP]

JP - you are right. I cannot provide any proof to you that the transaction took place.

You might have missed this the first time... If Richard had said he "knew" the sale was legit, then that wouldve been enough for me.

[danc]

Thanks for setting me straight on the CGC Population. DanC = Lazy, sometimes.

People use collectibles of this nature as investments. $1 million with this comic book or $1 million in Stocks. There are a lot of famous comic book collectors like movie actor Freddy Prinze Jr., former Skid Row lead singer Sebastian Bach, Jerry Seinfeld is a Superman freak and Nicolas Cage...you can scratch from that list of people who could afford the book.

IMO, I don't doubt the authenticity of the sale.Heritage just sold a nickel for $3.7 million and they have a Detective Comics in the same shape as the AC#1 and it's at $500,000 (w/ BP) with a day and half to go. Quality items in impeccable condition bring incredible mullah.

DanC

[teetwoohsix]

I think Rich V. brought up a good point,in post #5, about the comic book being slabbed.I know nothing about comic book slabbing,but he made a good point-with a slabbed card,you can still see everything about the card.With the comic,you see the front and back cover,so essentially you are putting 100% faith in the slabbers reputation-you have NO WAY to really know if any of the pages inside have been restored,altered,etc.

Don't get me wrong-I understand the reason for slabbing it-but unless you were the one who submitted it for grading,you would have to wonder about this,wouldn't you?

And we all know that no TPG is flawless............

[terjung]

I think Rich V. brought up a good point,in post #5, about the comic book being slabbed.I know nothing about comic book slabbing,but he made a good point-with a slabbed card,you can still see everything about the card.With the comic,you see the front and back cover,so essentially you are putting 100% faith in the slabbers reputation-you have NO WAY to really know if any of the pages inside have been restored,altered,etc.

Don't get me wrong-I understand the reason for slabbing it-but unless you were the one who submitted it for grading,you would have to wonder about this,wouldn't you?

And we all know that no TPG is flawless............

Interesting point. I always thought it was a bit weird to have a book slabbed in that you couldn't see the interior pages, but only thought about the lack of being able to read it and hadn't considered the TPG portion of it. With our beloved baseball cards, we often judge and opine as to whether something is accurately graded and sometimes even have "guess the grade" threads. With comics, you truly can't do much judging of the interior pages - except possibly count the number of pages from the edge (not sure how possible that even is). I wonder how stringently the interior pages are graded. For example, we know that SGC is tough on paper loss on the cards. I wonder how printing dots or registration issues (for example) may affect the grading if it were only present on the interior pages. Once it is slabbed, you may not even know the reason for the downgrade. A pristine front and back cover and binding could potentially deserve a much lower grade based on interior pages and you'd never know it unless it were specifically delineated or cracked out of its slab.

All that to say this... I think it may be tougher to "buy the comic not the slab" in that world due to this issue. Perhaps I am wrong though and will be enlightened.

[teetwoohsix]

Exactly Brian-I would be pretty leary about investing 1 mil. into a comic book already slabbed--unless maybe the original owner was the seller,and could vouch for the condition on the inside--no,wait-he's trying to make a mil.......:D

I'll stick to the cards...............:D

[rman444]

You might have missed this the first time... If Richard had said he "knew" the sale was legit, then that wouldve been enough for me.

Actually, I did say that, and it wasn't good enough for you. So I said that I didn't know, hoping that you would let it pass. Yet that didn't seem to work either, so I think that I will just stop commenting on this subject now :D

Regarding knowing the condition of the interior of a comic when it is slabbed, CGC will make notations on the label for anything that is more than minor (tape on pages, significant tears or pieces missing, etc). They also note the condition/quality of the pages on the label. For other details that are significant, yet too much to list out on the label, CGC makes grading notes in their database which anyone can request with a phone call and a certification number.

Don't you all wish that PSA and SGC would do the same?

[JP]

Go re-read your post. You said "the sale is legit" without saying whether that was an opinion or statement with inofrmation behind it. You never supported that statement. Then you retracted it completely a few posts later. Make up your mind.

[terjung]

They also note the condition/quality of the pages on the label. For other details that are significant, yet too much to list out on the label, CGC makes grading notes in their database which anyone can request with a phone call and a certification number.

Didn't know that they did that. Actually pretty cool (and I guess necessary in this case).


Don't you all wish that PSA and SGC would do the same?

Resounding "Yes!"

[JP]

A comic encapsulation where the comic is open to a page where you could see the artwork would be an amazing offering...

[slidekellyslide]

Well, I certainly wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition when I opened this thread tonight.

[sox1903wschamp]

Would you similarly question Brockelmann if he stated that a sale of a high end E107 was legit?

If Scott B said the sky was purple, I would tend to agree with him :). Having met him, I would not want to get in a brou-ha-ha with him. I'm just saying...

[Bicem]

I think the sale is legit. My sources (Richard) tell me that some comic book nerd with way too much money probably bought it.

[olsport]

When I think about what a HUGE waste of money that is, it kills me!! Anyone with spare change to buy a million dollar comic or Wagner, or whatever seems like an utter waste of money. I wonder what there reasoning would be? I am serious when I say this, "What about all the people starving in the US, or without the basics, or dying without the money for an operation, or anything anyone with an ounce of decency can think of. I just know that I would rather spend that kind of mega spare change on something to help others in need, and feel much better, than having the worlds most expensive comic or card sitting around in a climate controlled vault. I know, people are selfish, but I guarantee after the newness of that million dollar comic wears off they will be on to the next million dollar purchase, and on, and on. Or mabye they bought it for an investment, as we all know, the best of the best usually continues to have a good increase every couple of years. What goes on in these multimillionaires heads??

[Anthony S.]

Well, I certainly wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition when I opened this thread tonight.

Dan,

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

(can't believe you had to wait 4 hours for this response)

[glynparson]

Ol sport, it is often an investment coupled with the desire to own something that so many want to own. They should not be required to donate this money to anyone they earned it and have every right to spend it as they see fit. I don't understand why its any different for a billionaire to buy a comic like this or you to buy a card for a $100, why don't you donate that money instead of buying that card, or piece of memorobilia, after all that money could have gone to feed a few homeless families. Also I made a couple calls, and I'm waiting for some of the people to get backto me but so far I would have to say the sale is legit. Also people that don't think the best of the best in high demand collectibles are not still bringing enormous ammounts of money are fooling themselves.

[bijoem]

I think the sale is legit. My sources (Richard) tell me that some comic book nerd with way too much money probably bought it.

nice :D

[Jim VB]

When I think about what a HUGE waste of money that is, it kills me!! Anyone with spare change to buy a million dollar comic or Wagner, or whatever seems like an utter waste of money. I wonder what there reasoning would be? I am serious when I say this, "What about all the people starving in the US, or without the basics, or dying without the money for an operation, or anything anyone with an ounce of decency can think of. I just know that I would rather spend that kind of mega spare change on something to help others in need, and feel much better, than having the worlds most expensive comic or card sitting around in a climate controlled vault. I know, people are selfish, but I guarantee after the newness of that million dollar comic wears off they will be on to the next million dollar purchase, and on, and on. Or mabye they bought it for an investment, as we all know, the best of the best usually continues to have a good increase every couple of years. What goes on in these multimillionaires heads??

Paul,

With those socialistic thoughts running through your head, how do you justify collecting anything?

[Jim VB]

I think the sale is legit. My sources (Richard) tell me that some comic book nerd with way too much money probably bought it.

Well played.

[tinkereversandme]

That is simply insane to wonder what goes on in the heads of the wealthy. It isn't like Paris Hilton who buys her dogs a $100,000 dog house or some billionaire like Paul Allen owning a $300 million dollar boat or even someone a hip hop artist riding around in a $500,000 car, this piece will appreciate in time and he will be able to sell it in ten years for maybe $1.5 million. Hence, investment. And $1 million is chump change compared to what paintings go for...To come on a collecting Forum and call out a collector of another form of collectible (which you may not like), doesn't make sense to me.

Regards,
Larry

[JP]

By why the big jump in price? The highest a comic has ever gone for in public is not even 1/3rd of a million, and $350-400K deals have only been "private". And then suddenly there is a $1M comic sold? At the exact price of $1M?? Doesn't seem at all odd to me....

[ChiefBenderForever]

If its the nicest example a million isn't hard to believe at all. $1000.00 for us is like a million for a lot of people.

[egbeachley]

I just know that I would rather spend that kind of mega spare change on something to help others in need, and feel much better, than having the worlds most expensive comic or card sitting around in a climate controlled vault.

The $1M did not just disappear. It went from the buyer to the seller. Now the seller has the opportunity to do something good with the money.

[Zach Wheat]

Barry,

Jerry once said that there is a Superman reference in every sinngle episode of Seinfeld. Most of the "references" occur because he has a copy of Superman on the refrig or an image of Superman on the shelf.....there ins't an episode without a reference to Superman I am told.

[Rob D.]

When I think about what a HUGE waste of money that is, it kills me!! Anyone with spare change to buy a million dollar comic or Wagner, or whatever seems like an utter waste of money. I wonder what there reasoning would be? I am serious when I say this, "What about all the people starving in the US, or without the basics, or dying without the money for an operation, or anything anyone with an ounce of decency can think of. I just know that I would rather spend that kind of mega spare change on something to help others in need, and feel much better, than having the worlds most expensive comic or card sitting around in a climate controlled vault. I know, people are selfish, but I guarantee after the newness of that million dollar comic wears off they will be on to the next million dollar purchase, and on, and on. Or mabye they bought it for an investment, as we all know, the best of the best usually continues to have a good increase every couple of years. What goes on in these multimillionaires heads??

It kills me how anyone can spend money on a personal computer and Internet access when that money could be used for more worthwhile endeavors. Not to mention the time wasted posting on a baseball card message board that could be used to help mankind.

It's all relative.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Ten cents or ten million its all equal waste.

[Jim VB]

It kills me how anyone can spend money on a personal computer and Internet access when that money could be used for more worthwhile endeavors. Not to mention the time wasted posting on a baseball card message board that could be used to help mankind.

It's all relative.



Funniest answer EVER to the world hunger problem. Sam Kinison (RIP).


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[barrysloate]

The Superman refrigerator magnet is always visible, assuming the episode has a scene in his apartment. He mentions something about Superman in roughly half of them.

[olsport]

Some of you are very cold-hearted!! Quoting my post, then making a mockery out of it. I don't appreciate it. :(

[Jim VB]

Some of you are very cold-hearted!! Quoting my post, then making a mockery out of it. I don't appreciate it. :(



No one is trying to make a mockery of your post. Several of us have pointed out the irony of: you being a collector, coming on a collector's card forum, and trashing others who collect, albeit at a higher dollar level than most.

Do you not see that difference?


(For the record, my wife and I donate to charity, every year, almost as much as the Average Annual Wage in our state. In addition, I sit on the Board of Directors of a local charity that runs a food pantry, and provides financial support, and counseling for those in need. In addition to my Board duties, I spend about 10-15 hours a week volunteering for the same charity.)

[slidekellyslide]

Paul, you can't come on to a vintage collectible message board where people often spend large amounts of money for collectibles and proceed to tell them what they should instead be doing with their money. If you do (and in a roundabout way you did) then expect some mockery to come your way. Besides you have no way of knowing how much that million dollar collector gives to charity anyway.

[Wesley]

Detective Comics #27 just sold over a million dollars a few minutes ago. I am not going to believe it though until Richard and JP determine whether the sale is good.

[Jim VB]

Detective Comics #27 just sold over a million dollars a few minutes ago. I am not going to believe it though until Richard and JP determine whether the sale is good.

Heartless bastards!

[chaddurbin]

Detective Comics #27 just sold over a million dollars a few minutes ago. I am not going to believe it though until Richard and JP determine whether the sale is good.

i'm with wes...but it's been 7 minutes already. if richard doesn't get off his work pc and confirm this sale soon (and answer all follow-up inquiries) then i'm more inclined to believe he was just bs'ing throughout this thread.

[FUBAR]

for a million bucks, i think i would buy a hell of a house, just not sure how i would fit it into the plastic grading slab!!

[Bicem]

Detective Comics #27 just sold over a million dollars a few minutes ago. I am not going to believe it though until Richard and JP determine whether the sale is good.

:D

[rman444]

The sale is legit.

[Wesley]

That's the problem with the internet; anyone can proclaim to be an expert without providing solid evidence along with their CVs.

Until you post scans of the front and back of the million dollar checks, I am going to have to go with JP and say this is another fake sale.

[rman444]

The sale is not legit.

[FUBAR]

Havent seen that in a long long time, funny shit!

[Rob D.]

Sam was legit.

And I have proof.

[Doug]

Detective Comics #27 just sold over a million dollars a few minutes ago. I am not going to believe it though until Richard and JP determine whether the sale is good.

Now I'm starting to think I should have stuck with collecting comic books... :eek:

[chaddurbin]

richard,

since ur the comic expert on the board, and sgc grades comics...and derek grady works for sgc...should i vote for his son on AI? thanks for your professional input into the matter.

[rman444]

Tyler Grady is legit.

[JP]

Too legit, too legit to quit.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Can't touch this!

Hammer Time!

[Bicem]

So Hammer bought the comic book, I'm with you now. Thanks for the info JP!

[barrysloate]

Hammerin' Hank Aaron bought the comic?

[Jim VB]

Hammerin' Hank Aaron bought the comic?

Wrong Hammer, Barry.

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[Anthony S.]

Brutal commercial. That's why you don't put everyone you ever met on your payroll.

[barrysloate]

I know Jim, it was a small joke. Why would a 75 year old ex-ballplayer buy a million dollar comic book? Can't touch that!

[Jim VB]

I knew that you knew. I just wanted to post that commercial. I always liked it.

[Rob D.]

Jim,

I knew that you knew that Barry knew.

[barrysloate]

That was a very funny commercial. Never saw it before.

[Bicem]

Rob,
I knew that was coming. Also knew you knew I knew, you know?

[Jim VB]

Jim,

I knew that you knew that Barry knew.



Can I quote you on that?

[barrysloate]

Didn't Ralph Kramden say to Alice, something to the effect of :...I know, that you know, that I know..." It had something to do with they were getting evicted and Ralph knew Alice caught cold easily. Jim will remember the context, as a fellow Honeymooners fan.

[Rob D.]

Can I quote you on that?

Don't miss the boat.

[danc]

This is in fact one of the more amusing threads of the year so far. Whenever you can incorporate an "Adam Moraine-esque" statement, the uncertainty of outrageous comic book sales (as well as speculation to the sales legitimacy by a resident comic book/Net54 staple), multiple references to Seinfeld (as well as an assumption that he is the new owner of the comic book) and video footage of Hammer during his hey-dey, how can you go wrong?

DanC

[barrysloate]

This board is a cornucopia of pop culture trivia.

[ChiefBenderForever]

I don't know

[Rob D.]

I don't know

Can you prove that?

[FUBAR]

I feel dumberer for reading this thread!!!

if its on the internet, it must be true!!! just sayin'!

[lharri3600]

Amen:d

that's exactly why i leave my gutenberg bible in the drawer and pull out my kindle instead, when i need a dose of the lord.

[mybuddyinc]

"As we say down in the sewer: Water is thicker than blood." -- Ed Norton:rolleyes:

[Jewish-collector]

Not only this thread, but a lot of threads on this forum are good entertainment. :D

[ChiefBenderForever]

When did Hank Aaron Aaron start collecting high end comic books?

[Rob D.]

Not only this thread, but a lot of threads on this forum are good entertainment. :D

And best of all, they're free.

[JamesGallo]

Interesting point. I always thought it was a bit weird to have a book slabbed in that you couldn't see the interior pages, but only thought about the lack of being able to read it and hadn't considered the TPG portion of it. With our beloved baseball cards, we often judge and opine as to whether something is accurately graded and sometimes even have "guess the grade" threads. With comics, you truly can't do much judging of the interior pages - except possibly count the number of pages from the edge (not sure how possible that even is). I wonder how stringently the interior pages are graded. For example, we know that SGC is tough on paper loss on the cards. I wonder how printing dots or registration issues (for example) may affect the grading if it were only present on the interior pages. Once it is slabbed, you may not even know the reason for the downgrade. A pristine front and back cover and binding could potentially deserve a much lower grade based on interior pages and you'd never know it unless it were specifically delineated or cracked out of its slab.

All that to say this... I think it may be tougher to "buy the comic not the slab" in that world due to this issue. Perhaps I am wrong though and will be enlightened.

I have collected comics for 20+ years and was doing it before SGC was even around so I think I am qualified to comment on this thread.

The Action #1 was sold by Steven Fishler's company Metropolis Comics. Fishler is considered the biggest comic dealer in the world. He has a huge inventory and he personally has a large movie poster, original art and comic collection. I have dealt with him in the past and consider him a straight shooter. This issue was one of the best in the world and as we all know the best brings is way more money then anything else. Just compare prices on high grade Wagner's, has any other one gotten even close to half of the trimmed card?

The other important aspect is this book is unrestored. That makes a HUGE difference in a golden age (1930's-40's) comic.

This book much like it's character has become iconic. The cover has been ripped off many times and is widely reprinted. I would say it compares somewhat to Babe Ruth, but is rarer then any Ruth card and likely has higher demand since there is only one 1st issue and there are several early/rookie Ruth cards (depending on your point of view).

As for the pages, a comic is looked at differently then a card. The pages are graded on quality from white-brittle. As noted later in this thread CGC will note any tears, writing or missing pages on the label. As for as printing registry that is not someone I have seen ever talked about for the pages. On the covers there are some people that won't care about a book that has a slight diamond cut, others like myself hate the diamond cut. Regardless CGC does not deduct for this (which I think is BS).

People like slabs on comics even most so to protect the book. As for reading it, most extremely popular key books have been reprinted many times, and lower grade copies are mostly available. That being said I am not sure too many people are worried about reading their high grade Action 1 as what would be the point since any tiny stress could bring the grade down a full point and greatly impact the price.

So I have no doubt that the Action #1 sold, and if this isn't enough information then I would say you can't prove any sale unless you see it happen or have a email from both parties saying it happened.

As there are plenty of opinions on Heritage I will not comment on the sale of the Detective #27.

James G

[BlueDevil89]

A year later, a Spiderman goes for $1,100,000...

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/movies.ap.org/spider-man39s-debut-comic-sells-for-1.1-million

[Jim VB]

nm

[jcmtiger]

Shouldn't this discussion be on the chat board? :confused:

Joe

[ephus]

I have collected comics for 20+ years and was doing it before SGC was even around so I think I am qualified to comment on this thread.

The Action #1 was sold by Steven Fishler's company Metropolis Comics. Fishler is considered the biggest comic dealer in the world. He has a huge inventory and he personally has a large movie poster, original art and comic collection. I have dealt with him in the past and consider him a straight shooter. This issue was one of the best in the world and as we all know the best brings is way more money then anything else. Just compare prices on high grade Wagner's, has any other one gotten even close to half of the trimmed card?

The other important aspect is this book is unrestored. That makes a HUGE difference in a golden age (1930's-40's) comic.
This book much like it's character has become iconic. The cover has been ripped off many times and is widely reprinted. I would say it compares somewhat to Babe Ruth, but is rarer then any Ruth card and likely has higher demand since there is only one 1st issue and there are several early/rookie Ruth cards (depending on your point of view)
As for the pages, a comic is looked at differently then a card. The pages are graded on quality from white-brittle. As noted later in this thread CGC will note any tears, writing or missing pages on the label. As for as printing registry that is not someone I have seen ever talked about for the pages. On the covers there are some people that won't care about a book that has a slight diamond cut, others like myself hate the diamond cut. Regardless CGC does not deduct for this (which I think is BS).

People like slabs on comics even most so to protect the book. As for reading it, most extremely popular key books have been reprinted many times, and lower grade copies are mostly available. That being said I am not sure too many people are worried about reading their high grade Action 1 as what would be the point since any tiny stress could bring the grade down a full point and greatly impact the price.

So I have no doubt that the Action #1 sold, and if this isn't enough information then I would say you can't prove any sale unless you see it happen or have a email from both parties saying it happened.

As there are plenty of opinions on Heritage I will not comment on the sale of the Detective #27.

James G

Very thorough and correct explanation James G. From the first quote the poster said something about how there are guess grade threads for cards. There are guess the grade threads for comics on the cgc boards, but the true guessing of the condition of the inside pages is not necessarily in flux because anyone at anytime can call CGC and ask for graders notes on the cert. # of a particular comic. You talk to an actual grader and they explain the features and flaws of the interior and/or exterior that made the grade a certain number. These notes can be very detailed and lengthy. This practice is something that the graded comic world has done right and the grading card world could learn from. How many times have you scratched your head at a grade and a simple 2 minute conversation/explanation with a person who actually graded that card would answer most every question. Just an observation and my two cents.

[ls7plus]

I don't know much about the comic book market (I had all the original marvel comics, including the first Incredible Hulk, first Spiderman, first Fantastic Four, etc., when I was a kid, until my dad threw them all out one day. He thought: (1) they were too violent; and (2) I was too impressionable at the time--thanks, Dad!). However, I do study whatever I can get my hands on regarding the history of the coin collecting market, and it is interesting to note that there have been at least 32 individual coin sales for $1million plus that have been reported since May, 1996 through 2008 (See "100 Greatest Coins," 3rd edition, p 124, by well-known coin dealer Jeff Garrett). Other reputable sources in coins include anything written by Q. David Bowers.

PEOPLE LIKE TO COLLECT THINGS THAT ARE RARE AND SIGNIFICANT! The actual, AVAILABLE supply of desireable items, not the number still in existence, determines price--as rare items disappear into private collections for many years--sometimes decades, the actually available supply can be vastly reduced. As that occurs, and/or more collectors are drawn to the item over time, the supply vs demand equation can change quite DRAMATICALLY with regard to an item that is already rare to begin with. When that happens, explosive growth in price is the result!

For the guys buying collectibles at the price levels being discussed here, the amount they're paying is often like pocket change for us. Part of the attraction of owning an example of the rarest and best in any field of collecting is that it is a part of the collector's legacy. Just as THE Wagner has changed hands rather often since it passed through Gretsky and McNall's hands, the so-called trophy coins worth well into six and seven figures experience the same phenomenon, and for the same reasons.

I'm frankly a little stunned that collectors like us would question the fact that collectibles can achieve substantial appreciation over time--we see and appreciate the inherent, though somewhat intangible value they possess, and we strive to obtain the best examples of our own personal quests that our finances will permit. Great art continues to dwarf the prices even the most expensive coins bring (although the book I referred to estimates a unique 1849 Double Eagle--$20 gold piece, with the only known example currently held by the Smithsonian--to be worth a cool $20 million). Check the value in a reliable guide to see what a 1910 T210 Joe Jackson was worth in 1995, then check reported recent sales. Similarly, the very first sale of the 1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth minor league schedule card I am aware of was in the Copeland auction in 1989 (?), when it went for $6,000. Try and get your hands on one now for less than $200K!

Maybe we're skeptical because there is a very human tendency to view life as being just what it is at any given moment, and to think that's what it always will be. The value of a collectible is what it is, and that's all it will be (at least until I get around to buying the example I want, then its ok to go up in value). That is a static view of life, when in reality, life is a dynamic sea of change at all times, all around us. Q. David Bowers did a study based on articles appearing in "The Numismatist," a leading coin publication going back, I believe, to the late 1800's. He noted that many times throughout the history of coin collecting (which really became an organized hobby in the 1850's), people felt that coin values had peaked, when time and hindsight showed that that had not even remotely been the case. Ask Barry about the Honus Wagner he sold in the eighties for $16,000!

Wow, what a windbag I've been in this post--probably got ten bucks, rather than my "two cents" in. There will be a thirty minute quiz on this stuff tomorrow, guys!

Larry

[barrysloate]

Yes Larry, when I sold that Wagner I felt like I hit the lottery. But I don't think we will see the price appreciation of vintage baseball cards that we saw in the period roughly 1985-2005. The hobby has matured and I think any price increases we see in the future will be less dramatic.

And I never like to gauge the state of the market based what the rarest or best item sells for. Better to look at prices in the middle to get a true pulse.

[ls7plus]

Ah, but the market, in my opinion, really only started to mature after the crash of the new card rookie market in the early 90's, and only after people began to find out that there was a lot more of the '50's material out there than many originally thought. Rember when so many touted the '54 Bowman Ted Williams as being rare, because it had been pulled from production due to a contract dispute between Topps and Bowman? We've now learned that it might qualify as somewhat scarce, but not truly rare at all. Only after that phase did the card market really start to mature, with the focus shifting to truly rare, significant material, which in most instances meant pre-war items.

I believe you'll see quite a number of million dollar cards in our lifetime, including many of the Wagner's that are out there, quite possibly all of the 1914 Baltimore News Ruths (barring the finding of a significant hoard of them),
M101 Ruths in true NmMt, possibly the "T206" Cobb with Ty Cobb Tobacco back and some of the rarest of the rare cards of the highest echelon hall-of-famers in the best possible condition. The two or three Gem Mint 10
'52 Mantles are probably already there, if one was to change hands. I would include key cards from the Goudey, Cracker Jack or T206 sets graded 9' or 10's, or even a '54 Wilson's Franks Williams in such a lofty grade, but only with the caveat that it is not discovered later on that some of these cards are really restored cards that have been getting by the graders. And with regard to the latter, I don't know if that is the case or not, but would be concerned about it if I had the funds to be buying such cards now.

Somewhat less spectacular cards won't be left out in the cold, though. I think scarce to rare examples of a less prominent character will also appreciate quite nicely, though not to those levels. I do think, though, that we'll be surprised at the number of $100,000 + cards out there 20-30 years from now.

So, respectfully, Barry, I disagree with you. I think cards now are where coins were in the '60's or early '70's (coin collecting did have about a 120-year head start on us as an organized hobby, yet it took a long time for the really valuable coins to achieve those lofty price tags). Cards, however, are catching up fast, with the rarest and most significant appreciating faster in value than comparable coins did, probably due to the fact that a lot of coin people have gone into the card hobby (David Hall, after all, started out with his grading services in coins around 1986, and not with PSA in cards). I remember when a rag of a Wagner was around $50,000 in the mid-nineties. You can multiply that by five now, and that train ain't nowhere near the station!

Coins went through the same sort of boom and bust cycle that the new rookie market did in the sixties, when many investors came into the field, hungry to buy bright shiney items in very high grade, which were actually quite common. Mint rolls of 1950-D nickels went from $100 or so to a high of $1200, before crashing back down to their present value of about $300/roll. Same with high mint grade Morgan silver dollars, many of which existed in the hundreds of thousands, but unknowlegable investors considered to be quite scarce or even rare simply because of their age. Yet the truly rare, significant coins weren't subject to that boom and crash cycle--they just went along their merry way, appreciating at about 12% or so compounded annually, meaning that their value would double every six years, which adds up quite nicely over time.

All of which is not to say that the '33 Goudey Babe Ruth in PSA 4, for sake of example, will rise to such lofty levels, nor will a T206 Cobb in a similar grade. There are just too many of those cards out there for that to happen. But look at something like the Baltimore News Ruth. Lifson estimates that there are 11 or so in existence. For now, let's assume that's true. If there are 1100 collectors out there in the hunt for one, and they are all available for sale, the ratio of buyers to cards is 100:1. But if 7 of those cards find permanent homes in private collections, the ratio shifts dramatically to 1093:4, or
273:1. Let two more of the remaining four find a similar happy, long-term residence,and the ratio shifts explosively to 1091:2, or 545:1. The value of those still available will reflect that in their price, and my example doesn't even reflect the fact that such a dramatic increase will not be lost on the collecting public, adding even more collectors to the hunt. If a thousand new collectors are then attracted to the card who have the means to procure one, our ratio shifts to 2,091:2, or 1,045:1! All of which is basically Econ 101, simply the supply and demand equation illustrated in a dynamic example. But that's also how the cream of the crop rises so swiftly to the top!

Because I believe we are far closer to the beginning than the end, insofar as card values are concerned, the opportunity is here and now, if you're concerned about value appreciation. Just educate yourselves with regard to what's out there, and our cumulative knowlege here is an invaluable asset in that respect. And if you're not concerned about the investment aspects, or if its only part of the attraction, as it is for me, we still have the very history of the game we can hold right in our hands! And how very priceless is that?

Those of you that have had the patience to read through these two long-winded posts of mine can paste a gold star on your foreheads!

Happy collecting, guys!

Larry

[Leon]

Larry- thanks for your well thought out posts. I happen to agree with you on almost everything you said. I guess I am biased though as I have been focused on collecting the scarce and unusual since day one of my adult collecting. best regards

[barrysloate]

Larry- we may be talking about two different things. I agree that the very rarest and most expensive cards will continue to increase in value. But I think the more commonly traded cards, the ones set builders and type collectors buy on a regular basis, won't see the dramatic increases. The guy piecing together a T206 set one card at a time is not travelling in the same circles as the guy buying a Baltimore News Ruth. Those are two different markets as far as I'm concerned.

[ls7plus]

Barry, I agree with you completely with regard to the more commonly traded cards, meaning those that exist in sufficient quantities to be commonly traded. The very quantity of them that exist precludes them from rapid price increases--its like an anchor weight tethered to their ankles. But by the same token, their ready availability and affordability is a big plus to those of us that feel that the card connects us to the player, and takes us back to the time and even the events that were occurring in the sport when the card was issued (I bought a 1922 W573 Sisler, not because it's at least moderately tough, but because it was his .420 season, just before the sinus infection affected his vision. We used to play stratomatic baseball in the early '70's using the all-time hall-of-famer set that the company issued, along with other cards of star players from stratomatic seasons past, and I can tell you that Sisler, with that card, rivaled Gehrig and his 1927 card for #1 firstbaseman status in the drafts we held to pick teams. After several years of playing that game, it became quite apparent just how great a player Sisler was, before his vision declined).

But I also think that there are a lot of rare, somewhat esoteric cards that are undervalued, which will increase pretty dramatically in price. In that respect, my thought is that someone like Leon, with many of the cards he has (with the proof strip including Matty coming immediately to mind), is on the right track. A fellow by the name of John J. Pittman took precisely that approach in collecting esoteric, rare, undervalued coins in the '40's and '50's through the early '90's. Pittman wasn't wealthy, but probably wasn't poor either--he was a chemical engineer at Eastman Kodak. He reportedly spent about a hundred thousand dollars pursuing just such material during that time, focusing on rarity and quality, but not going after the major rarities (he most likely couldn't afford them--I believe both the 1894-S dime and the 1913 Liberty Head nickel, two true trophy coins, were both worth about $3000-$4000 in the forties, which, when factoring in the consumer price index and inflation, would be the equivalent of $25,000-$30,000 in today's dollars). Pittman somehow got his wife to consent to taking out a mortgage on their home so that he could attend and participate in the auction of King Farouk's collection in Egypt after he was deposed around 1954 (one heckuva wife, huh?). Anyway, after Pittman died in the '90's, his collection was auctioned off and brought in excess of $25 million.

My thought is that cards like the 1923-1924 Exhibit Babe Ruth and the 1907 Wolverine News Cobb rookie are the kinds of things Pittman would be seeking out were he alive today, and into cards rather than coins (I recently saw the Cobb offered on e-bay, graded SGC poor due to a crease running across the middle of the card, and right across Cobb's face, offered for $3,000. I thought no way that card in that grade with that crease is going to sell for that, but it did, just before I was about to make the seller a significantly lower offer, which prompted me to jump on the 1907 Dietsche Cobb Fielding Pose Tony Arnold was offering in PSA 5. The latter card has some chips around the edges, and probably not the best eye appeal for a five, but it does have four square corners, no creases, and makes for a very nice matched pair with the batting pose Cobb I acquired from the same set several years ago).

Thanks, Leon, for your comment. It means a lot coming from you, with your collection!

Best wishes to all you guys, and may we all prosper in our collecting endeavors.

Larry

[Exhibitman]

There is a balance between rarity and price that favors cards that are rare but not too rare. I'd suggest that a steady trickle of material into the marketplace boosts collector interest, whereas owning a 1 of 1 card does not do as well. A card has to be offered for sale often enough to whet the appetites of collectors, yet not so often as to be perceived as commonly offered. Absent enough copies of a card in circulation to inspire people to pay attention, the card will become an obscurity, interesting but not as highly regarded as a more readily located 'rare' card. The T206 Wagner is a great example: there are quite a few of them relatively speaking--especially as compared to many other rare cards--yet the prices keep rising as the supply expands. The excitement builds the desire, which builds the price for the next one, which fuels further desire. Wagner is by no means the only example. As noted above, though, as stuff comes out of the woodworks, some cards are re-evaluated and decline in value or do not appreciate as much relative to others.

[ls7plus]

I generally agree with you, Exhibitman. What my so-called "dynamic illustration" of Econ 101 supply and demand should have included to complete the "dynamic flux" was that even in the case of the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth, assuming it is as rare as generally believed in current auction literature, as prices rise, some of the secreted away examples have or will find their way back onto the market. Either the dollar-value increase is just too tempting not to take advantage of, the attraction wears off, or financial need comes into play to bring about a sale. Or, as is happening quite a bit lately in the area of major rarity/trophy coins, the big bucks buyer is content to simply have owned an example for a time, creating a permanent niche for himself in the trophy coin's legacy. That very thing has been happening with regard to the PSA 8 Wagner--it's changed hands quite often since Gretsky and McNall bought it in '91 for such a desireable piece (ignoring for the moment its somewhat questionable origin).

There is a caveat, though, I believe with regard to the very true generalization that 1 of 1's do not do as well as cards that are rare, but not so rare that a trickle of them can't come out to build a steady market. And that is the factor of significance. What if a true 1 of 1 proof or salesman's sample were to be discovered of the Wagner, or of the Baltimore News Ruth, the M101 Ruth major league rookie, or even the '52 Topps Mantle? The '39 Playball Williams? '25 Exhibits Gehrig? What price might the occasionally bantered about 1905 team card featuring Cobb on this forum bring? Is it one of one? I personally have never seen another, but probably have less observation time in than several others on this board. In a major auction, I believe it would do quite well. I'd certainly be bidding, at least for awhile, and I suspect that more than a few other members would be also. What if there were just one of the "T206" Ty Cobb's with Ty Cobb tobacco backs, instead of possibly 10-15? The lone example of the 1921 Tip Top Bread Lefty Grove minor league card that is known to exist brought approximately $30,000 in a Huggins and Scott auction about a year or so ago.

Interesting food for thought. It is always a pleasure to engage in a bit of mental jousting with someone as knowledgable as Exhibitman, Leon or many other members of this forum!

Best wishes to all of you gentlemen who make this site such a valuable source of information.

Larry

[ls7plus]

And Exhibitman is oh so right on with regard to his statement about the decline in value when previously unknown hoards of examples come out of the woodwork! I bought a 1953-1955 Dormand Postcards Gil Hodges at a mid-nineties Pittsburgh show in NMt condition for $400. At that time, hobby consensus seemed to be that only about 3 dozen existed. It was and is a beautiful card, and I believed the rarity and the fact that I liked Gil Hodges justified the price. Then, about 12 years later, about 1000-1200 were found, said to represent a supply that Hodges was supposed to have but never did pick up. The last one I saw offered was in better condition than mine--I think Kit Young had it at the 2009 National--and had a price tag of $75.00! Maybe if I live for another 30 years, that card will be worth what I paid for it.

Larry