1952 Topps Mantle Tons Of Questions...

[mintacular]

As a relatively young collector, have some questions about this card, thank you in advance for your responses...
(1) How many copies of this card exist approx. i.e. how rare is it really?
(2) Was Mantle a "must-have" card when it was first released or just another promising rookie or worse?
(3) When did this card become "iconic"? i.e. when did it spike in value?
(4) During the late 50s-60s was this card hard to come by/high demand or did it just cost a "few extra bucks"?
(5) Do you think it will continue to go up in the future or will it flatline?
(6) Any stories from the early days (60s/70s) when you came across this card and did/did not pull the trigger and get one :)

[steve B]

Hardly an expert but here's my thoughts
1)Not really rare. It's a doubleprint after all. Although either of the two versions would be just as common as any other 52 high number.
2)I'm not sure, I'm a good deal too young. Since it was only his second year it probably wasn't a big deal when it came out.
3)I don't know about Iconic, that has developed over time. Probably it grew along with Mantles image as an iconic player.
4)It was certainly a big deal by the late 70's, and from what the guys whose shop I hung out at back then said, it had been a pretty big deal for some time, at least since the late 60's
5)It will probably settle into slow but steady growth, like the Wagner.
6)I had a number of chances to pick one up. But it was always more than I was willing to spend. Always in that odd area where I could wreck the card budget and buy a crummy one, but a really nice one was always way too much. Although the gap has gotten much bigger the last decade or so.

Steve B

[tedzan]

I am old enough to tell you of how excited I was to have gotten this card when I opened a 5-cent Topps pack in the Fall of 1952.

I was excited because the sports media hype regarding Mantle as the successor to Joe DiMaggio was riding high, as early as 1951.
And, by the Fall of '52, Mantle was already hitting prodigious HR's and had a season BA = .311 (coincidently, his 1952 Topps card number).

The story now jumps to 1979 when the "Rookie card" craze started. As a lot of things in this hobby, this craze started in Philadelphia
when Pete Rose was traded to the Phillies. Overnite, Rose's rookie card went from a common 1963 card price to $50. Then, in 1980
at a Philadelphia auction, 3 - 1952 Topps Mantle cards sold for a total of $10,000.

This sale was unprecendented in the hobby back then. And, the rest is history. This card was never really rare, but it was touted
as being so. However, it was not his real rookie card. The 1951 Bowman was (and it was tougher to find than his Topps card).
But, for unexplainable reasons, Mantle's Bowman card at that time did not get its deserved respect by collectors and dealers in the
hobby.

Anyhow, you wonder if its value will continue to go up ?

Like anything else nowadays, it depends on the economy. And, that aint doing so well at this point in time.

I hope I answered some of your questions.

TED Z

[ALR-bishop]

Steve mentioned the double print and the "two versions". The Mantle card does involve two variations with both front and back differences, although it is not normally categorized as a variation. The Thompson and J Robinson are the only other two cards from that set that share the same unique back variation as the Mantle ( those two however do not have a front difference like the Mantle as far as I have been able to see)

[toppcat]

I am old enough to tell you of how excited I was to have gotten this card when I opened a 5-cent Topps pack in the Fall of 1952.

TED Z

Ted-where did you purchase this in '52? I am trying to figure out distribution of the highs and since you actually bought packs I can get some primary source material!

Thanks-Dave

http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/search/label/1952%20Topps%20Baseball%20High%20Numbers

[barrysloate]

Also, in the 1980's a case of 1952 semi-high and high numbers was found, and it contained anywhere from 30-50 Mint condition Mantles. Virtually all of the very high grade Mantles in the hobby originated from this find. However, the market easily absorbed them all.

[jmoran19]

from mr mint's web site:

1. Purchaser of the Boston, MA 1952 Topps Find, including over 6,000 Gem Mint high numbers of which there were 65 Mickey Mantle rookies. Sotheby's Auction House called it, "The greatest find of baseball cards ever." It's value in the year 2000? Over $15 million!

[toppcat]

from mr mint's web site:

1. Purchaser of the Boston, MA 1952 Topps Find, including over 6,000 Gem Mint high numbers of which there were 65 Mickey Mantle rookies. Sotheby's Auction House called it, "The greatest find of baseball cards ever." It's value in the year 2000? Over $15 million!

That was a former Globe Printing employee's partial case-would love to have further background if that firm was involved in printing the 52's.

[Volod]

Can't really add anything worthwhile in the presence of such expertise, but the one thing I always recalled about buying wax packs in 1952 was that there were scarcely any Topps cards available in my area of upstate NY. I bought a lot of Bowman product that year, but suffered long-remembered pangs of envy when a kid in the schoolyard pulled out a stack of the larger (and thus more attractive) 52 Topps. I think that kid had just returned from a family trip to NY city or the environs, where he picked up the treasure trove. But, the only Topps cards I recall in my collection that year were a few that were severely trimmed to match the size of the Bowmans in my rubber-banded, back-pocket collection.

[tedzan]

Dave...." Ted-where did you purchase this in '52? "

In the Fall of '52, I was buying Hi# Topps cards in Hillside and Elizabeth, NJ.

A long-time friend of mine bought his Hi#'s in the foothills of the Smokey Mtns. in NC.


TED Z

[Rich Klein]

The story now jumps to 1979 when the "Rookie card" craze started. As a lot of things in this hobby, this craze started in Philadelphia
when Pete Rose was traded to the Phillies. Overnite, Rose's rookie card went from a common 1963 card price to $50. Then, in 1980
at a Philadelphia auction, 3 - 1952 Topps Mantle cards sold for a total of $10,000.

This sale was unprecendented in the hobby back then. And, the rest is history. This card was never really rare, but it was touted
as being so. However, it was not his real rookie card. The 1951 Bowman was (and it was tougher to find than his Topps card).
But, for unexplainable reasons, Mantle's Bowman card at that time did not get its deserved respect by collectors and dealers in the
hobby.



The person who bought those cards was Rob Cohen of R&B Cards *IIRC* the companies name correctly. And from what I understood; he had a buyer to flip those cards to. It is possible that the profit was very small on the flip, but never the less, that really helped to explode the hobby. One of the issues was that Gold was making what whas then its record run and Silver WAS on its major run. Cards were lumped in at that time as a collectible to go with Gold/Silver.

Twas funny; a couple of months after the sale, we were laughing when seventeen 1952 Mantles were available for auction/sale in the next Trader Speaks printed after that auction was concluded and $3K became the new benchmark for a 52 Topps Mantle.

Someday, I'll relate the story of the 1st time I ever met Lew Lipset and yes a 52 Topps Mantle was involved :)

Regards
Rich

[Rich Klein]

Hardly an expert but here's my thoughts
1)Not really rare. It's a doubleprint after all. Although either of the two versions would be just as common as any other 52 high number.


I hate to do the David Rudd style of consecutive posts for boosting one's post total, but after all this is a different point than the last point. :)

I remember when I was still at Beckett, Andy Broome came over to show me two different Mantles which were in grading at the same time. He detailed all the differences, and after we discussed those differences, he agreed that the stitching on the ball was still the best way to notate the two different cards. The stitching is either clockwise or counter-clockwise. If he still has his notes, it might be interesting to see what the other differences were in the two Mantles.

Regards
Rich

[Rich Klein]

Also, in the 1980's a case of 1952 semi-high and high numbers was found, and it contained anywhere from 30-50 Mint condition Mantles. Virtually all of the very high grade Mantles in the hobby originated from this find. However, the market easily absorbed them all.

That purchase from Mr. Mint was made circa 1986 and for the next few years, I could always tell at any show when I saw a 52 High # from that find. Those cards were that obvious to tell the difference.


Shoot, might as well get three posts in a row here :)

Rich

[toppcat]

My notes indicate, in addition to stitching pointing left on the DP's, that the fronts compare as follows, in order:

#311 Mantle Left Stitch back-Note yellow line under the name box
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/dsh46/mantlestichesleftdetail.jpg

#311 Mantle Right Stitch back-Note no yellow line under name box and while line to lower right of name box
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/dsh46/mantlestitchesrightdetail.jpg

#312 Robinson Left Stitch back-Note yellow/green line under left 2/3rds of name box and yellow line to right of name box
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/dsh46/robinsonstitchesleftdetail.jpg

#312 Robinson Right Stitch back-Note line under name box is black and there is barely any yellow line to the tight of name box
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/dsh46/robinsonstitchesrightdetail.jpg

#313 Thomson (Believe) Left Stitch back with no moles-Note (as facing the card) no blemish on his upper left eyelid and no molebelow his right eye
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/dsh46/thomsonnomoledetail.jpg

#313 Thomson (Believe) Right Stitch back with moles-Note (as facing the card) white blemish on his upper left eyelid and mole below his right eye
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p280/dsh46/thomsonmoledetail.jpg

I grabbed these all off Ebay so some folks out there might have better scans.

[ChiefBenderForever]

I think mr. mints find was in 1986. He placed an initial add for the mint Mantle rookies at 3000.00 each and couldn't sell any so he lowered his price, selling most of them for 1000.00-2500.00 each, now those would probably be worth 50-100k each or more. I know someone who bought a nice EX+ condition Mantle in the mid 70's for 100.00, probably a 30-40k card now. I wish I had one in any condition.

[ALR-bishop]

Dave---on the Mantle fronts of the stitch right the star boarder also always appears jumbled due to the uneven top line and the e in the signature line is always cut off rather than looped back as is the case on the stitch left cards.

Had not noticed the front differences on the other two. I initially bought all 3 of my second versions of these cards based only on the stitching, even though I had read Josh's report on the Mantle front differences. I doubt anyone will ever add these cards to any standard master set variation list ;)

[tedzan]

I might add....note the glossy sheen to Mantle's right arm (lower left corner) vs the normal skin tone in the top pix
(with flawless braid in the name box).


TED Z

[oaks1912]

Dave.. Per your post, the 52 High series was regionally distributed in many areas, although I have never found any traced back to Northern California. I have purchased many (1000 +) from Canada over the years. As Ted Z may recall, one of his West Coast visits in the 90's, he joined me on a roadtrip to purchase a full set of '52 Topps from a guy who collected the entire set as a kid in Chicago. I know that Ted appreciates the location of where cards were distributed, and I'm sure he forgave me for dragging him on this find, as opposed to visiting Bodega Bay.... which we eventually did... :)

[toppcat]

I am inquiring elsewhere as well on distribution of the highs and may have found someone in Oklahoma who purcahsed them as a kid. We will see.

I will update the comparisons ina little bit above. Was just trying to get a down and dirty looksee but might as well get it all in one place.