T206 Coupon type 1 scarcity level?

[Leon]

With all of the talk about T213-1 becoming a T206, where would you put the scarcity level?

1. Ty Cobb - Factory 33 - District 4 - State NC **
2. Old Mill (Brown) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
3. Broad Leaf - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
4. Lenox (Brown) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
5. Drum - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
6. Uzit - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
7. Hindu (Red) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
8. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
9. Blank Back
10. Lenox (Black) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
11. Broad Leaf - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
12. Carolina Brights - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
13. Sovereign - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
14. Hindu (Brown) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
15. American Beauty - Series 460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
16. Cycle - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
17. Tolstoi - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
18. El Principe De Gales - Factory 17 - District 2 - State VA
19. American Beauty (no Frame) - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
20. American Beauty (with Frame) - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
21. Cycle - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
22. Old Mill (Southern League) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
23. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
24. Old Mill (Black) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
25. Sovereign - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
26. Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 150 - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
27. Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
28. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
29. Sovereign - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
30. Polar Bear - Factory 6 - District 1 - State OH
31. Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
32. Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
33. Piedmont - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
34. Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
35. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
36. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
37. Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
38. Piedmont - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA

[sb1]

In the 8-12 area, not tough enough to rank with 7 or higher and definitely tougher than 13 and lower.

[barrysloate]

I'll say 13-15.

[willworkforT206]

The last few I've seen come to market sold at a premium of about 8x to 10x more than a comparable common backed T206. Such a premium level is similar to, but slightly higher than, the premium for Broad Leaf 350. Therefore, I'd say "COUPON" would fall between Lenox and Broad Leaf 350 on your scarcity chart. (On a side note, I think Lenox and Piedmont Factory 42 should swap places on that chart).

By the way, I picked up my first T213-1 just a month or so ago. It was raw, so I got to hold it in my hand and compare it to another raw T206. Except for the thickness of the paper stock, T213-1 and T206 are identical in every way. Let's just say this long-time T206 collector is officially in the "It's a T206" camp.

Steve

[tedzan]

I would rank the 1910 COUPON cards between DRUM and UZIT (or numerically 5.5) on your list.

There are many reasons for my higher ranking than others who have posted here.
Three reasons are......

In my 33 years (as an adult) in this hobby, I know of only one complete set of 68 cards.

Second, if you check out SGC's Registry, there is only one partial set (of 40) cards in it.

Furthermore, there have been several finds of DRUM, UZIT and Red HINDU cards. I know
of only one find of 1910 COUPON's.


TED Z

[rhettyeakley]

I agree w/ Scott's observation. Between 8-12.

[sb1]

We happen to have two in the upcoming auction. Time will tell how they shake out.

Scott

[caramelcard]

I agree with Scott as well.

I think tougher than broadleaf 350, but not tougher than lenox.

Type 1s are tough because of the thin stock, because collections have likely been lost in floods, hurricanes, etc. but also because Louisiana tobacco set collectors tend to keep to themselves.


Ted,

There are certain cards in the t213-1 set that are much "easier" to find than others.

I completely agree that complete sets would are very hard to come by.

That being said, I know of two complete sets in the hands of two different private collectors. One who is extremely close to all three coupon sets.


Rob

[caramelcard]

Off point, but looking at that list I don't agree with a lot of them anyways.

On this board, we've hashed out several harder backs that aren't sexy so they're overlooked.

This one comes to mind:

23. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA

[drdduet]

IMO, just a bit tougher than Lenox.

[judsonhamlin]

I think around 8-9 as well. I've only got one (Howell) and i haven't seen any big groups of them for sale in a long time -going back to Lew Lipset's catalog days.

[DixieBaseball]

I would put the Type 1's in between Red Hindu's and Lenox, or possibly just after Lenox... (8-11 range) - I did a quick scan of SGC pop reports and they show 189 graded BL's and 124 Type 1 Coupons (76 Drums if your curious). I am sure there some wiggle room for error, but there is a trend from the pop report. I would be curious where PSA has their numbers pegged at to get an idea of the total # of BL's, Lenox, and Type 1's Coupon's graded. Sure, there are raw cards out there, but there is enough of a sample out there to give us indication on where Type 1's might fit in the t206 tree. I have been collecting the Type 1's for about 7 years now, and they rarely come available. They are extremely underated in my humble opinion.

[tedzan]

Sort of anecdotal, however these are the current numbers of my rare T206 back collection......

1......1910 COUPON

4......DRUM

4......UZIT

6......Red HINDU

2.....,LENOX

10....BROAD LEAF 350

12....PIEDMONT 460/42

61....AMERICAN BEAUTY 460

And, I actively seek these COUPON cards....just can't find them. Or, I am outbid when they infrequently show up.

I'm curious to see what some of you guys have ?


TED Z

[Harford20]

First, as noted by Steve, I would swap the Lenox and the Piedmont Fact 42. Then to answer the initial question, I would place the Coupon Type 1 equal to, or just slightly rarer than the Lenox. Guess that means 7.5-8 for my vote.

[ethicsprof]

t206 coupon between 7 and 8.
i'm with Rob re: the need to look at some other rankings such as
sweet cap 350/460 fact. 25---out of 'round 530 206's i only have ONE.
anecdotal,yes---but intriguing.

best,
barry

[barrysloate]

I guess my range was a bit too liberal. While trying to complete a set would be nearly impossible, back collectors simply want one of each example. As such, I don't think getting one as a type would be that much of a challenge. But I defer to the general consensus.

[drdduet]

Just a thought....

How tough would they today be if they had been considered a T206 back type all long?

My estimation that it would probably be in the top 5 of "toughness".

[barrysloate]

Well of course if they were part of T206 the number of collectors going after them would increase exponentially. But only back collectors would care, because there are no unique fronts that couldn't be found with easier backs.

[tedzan]

I completely agree with Darren. It appears that both of us feel that the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards deserve
a scarce ranking higher than others here. As, I already have posted that these cards rank between DRUM and
UZIT....numerically, a 5.5 on the list.

Look guys, in recent years there have been several finds of DRUM, UZIT and Red HINDU cards. How many 1910
COUPON finds do you guys know of ?

I know of only one find of 1910 COUPON's, and that was many years ago.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- you certainly may be correct. Drum, Uzit, and Red Hindu are in great demand whenever one comes up for sale. There just isn't as much interest in Coupon, so maybe I am underestimating its difficulty.

[DixieBaseball]

I know we have discussed it before, but are there any theories on Coupon's card stock being so thin ? Isn't this the only real reason we all speculate it is not a T206 brand ? Same year, same look on front and backs, same everything with one exception : Ultra thin card stock. I know we have discussed before, but I can't make any sense of the thin card stock and not sure there is any research to tell us why either... Speculating, would it be a simple case of when they produced the Coupon's they had a different run of card stock or possibly was it on purpose for a particular reason, like the actual Coupon cigarette packs being a better fit for the thinner card due to a really tight pack...?? Any thoughts out there ? While you ponder(Ted), here's a "high grade" Topsy...

[barrysloate]

Jeremy- nobody knows, but it may be nothing more than the paper stock that the Louisiana factory received at the time. Maybe that quality paper was cheaper than the thicker stock. I don't think that alone would disqualify the cards from being part of T206. If that were the case, American Beauty could be kicked out for being too narrow.

[Leon]

BTW, I took that original list, at top, off of the internet. It is not my personal thoughts...but it was easy and close :). I would change a few around also but it did give us something quick to go on....So, not all of the first list are places I agree with completely...but, I do think it's fairly close and made for a nice discussion so far. I have 2 type 1's in my collection. Nobody used to care much about them. My, how times have changed!!

[tedzan]

Darren succintly makes a great point regarding these cards......

" How tough would they today be if they had been considered a T206 back type all long?
My estimation that it would probably be in the top 5 of "toughness". "


The demand for these COUPON cards is no where near the demand for BL 460, DRUM, Red HINDU, LENOX, etc.,
simply because they are not classified as "T206's".

Had Burdick included them in the T206 family, I have no doubt that they would be in higher demand. However,
now they are basically a regional issue that does not garner the interest that T206's do.

Consider this, most serious T206 collectors strive to acquire the basic 15 T-brand backs (if not all 35-38 backs).
And, there are 1000's of T206 collectors out there in the hobby, of which many would at least seek out a type
card of a 1910 Coupon....had it been part of the mystique that is a T206.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- agreed!

[ctownboy]

To all,

To play Devil's advocate here, couldn't it be argued that if Burdick designated Coupons as T 206's that MORE of them would have survived to this day and that they wouldn't be so rare?

I mean, as it stands now, it seems, Coupons are mostly a regional issue that is mostly only collected by people in that area of the country. Leon just said he only has two Type 1's in his collection. As a small fish in this big pond, I have a Type 1 Engle and a Type 2 Needham and that is it as far as Coupons go in my collection (compared to 19 T 206's). So, it seems most collectors only have a few Coupons in their respective collections and that is as a type card.

After Hurricane Katrina, I read (probably on this board) that a big time Louisiana collector lost most or all of his collection to the storm and flood waters. Now, if Coupons had been designated T206's a long time ago, I am sure some of those cards would have been dispersed around the country (as would have other now lost cards) so that when tropical storms and hurricanes hit the Gulf Coast, not as many cards would have been concentrated in that geographical area and thus not as many would have been lost or destroyed.

With more of a dispersement and more known to exist, we would have a better idea as to how rare they really are. As it stands now, we can only guess. Which means these cards are going to be considered rare until a collector or two decides to auction off their hidden cards and they become more plentiful to the general collecting public. Or, on the flip side, another natural disaster or two hits that area and wipes out more cards and they become even more rare.

Just my thoughts,

David

[barrysloate]

Weren't many of the tougher T206 brands regional too? Weren't Drums mostly found in St. Louis? The fact that Coupons were regional still isn't a deal breaker for me.

[tbob]

Just a quick note on T213-1 scarcity. When I was a partner in the "Southern Find" in the 80's of those tons of T213s, they were mostly series 2s and a complete set plus several extras of T213-3s and not one single T213-1. Might have just been the distribution area but I found it interesting.

[barrysloate]

Bob- Ted Z. and I were discussing that find just this morning and we were wondering what the breakdown was. That is very interesting, and may explain why the type 1's are so tough- they were not brought into the market by that famous find.

[fkw]

Id rank it about 10....

But I would never consider the T213-1 a T206 because the card stock is completely different than any of the other 15-16 T206 brands, the stock is much thinner, almost a heavy paper more than cardboard.

Hope no one goes and screws with the ACC #s on it. The set needs to be a subset of T213 as it is more related to T213-2 and T213-3 than the T206 set.

Thats the way its been collected for 70+ years since the first ACC came out, no need to change it.

[tedzan]

Frank

I respect your expertise a lot; but, we've had this argument before. And, once more I have to differ with you.

The T213-1 cards resemble T206's considerably more so than they do T213-2 and T213-3. For example, the 1910 COUPON cards......

1.....Stylish back design is consistent with the T206's (AB, BL, Cycle, DRUM) that were printed and issued in the Summer/Fall of 1910.

2.....All 68 fronts are consistent with the 350 series cards issued during 1910.

3.....The captions are printed with Brown ink.


T213-2 and T213-3 characteristics that are NOT consistent with 1910 COUPON cards......

1.....They were printed with BLUE ink captions.

2.....T213-2 cards are are found with gloss on their fronts.

3.....T213-3 cards are cut narrower than the 1910 COUPON cards.

4.....Some T213-3 cards have. overprints with Factory #8 on their backs.

Sorry guy, but using the "thinner stock" argument is very weak and smells like a "Louisiana red-herring".


TED Z

[DixieBaseball]

I still find it fascinating that there is not an example higher than Vg-Ex out there. Yes, the issue is paper like, but come on... Surely there are some crisp raw examples stuck in a book somewhere out there... For us to be this far along in the grading game and a Vg-Ex (4) is the highest example, makes me wonder how that compares to Ty Cobb, Brown Old Mill, etc. -- Would you say that all other t206 cards have higher conditions than this type ? Would this be considered the toughest condition card out of the tobacco series ?

[barrysloate]

I also respect Frank's knowledge but I will pose this hypothetical question: what if Coupon never issued any cards past 1910, and series 2 and 3 never existed. What ACC number would Burdick have designated for them?

[rman444]

That's not only hypothetical, it's rhetorical.

[Leon]

I just want to throw in a vote of support for Frank. Way to go Frank...you are my man!! T213-1 = Coupon type 1......just as Burdick said. :cool:

[drdduet]

Is Pluto still a planet? Is the cause of GRID/AIDS still unknown?

With increased capacity for knowledge comes reevaluation of any system of classification.

[ValKehl]

T213-1s to be reclassified to T206s so that my nice T213-1 Matty, which I have had for a long time and occasionally put on my trade bait list (I also have a decent McBride for my T213-1 type card), will increase exponentially (sp?) in value!! :D

To be serious, not being a T206 collector, I have learned much from this thread (and so many other Net 54 threads, as well), which has probably saved me from letting this Matty card go for less than it is worth.
Thanks to all, Val

[tedzan]

In my above post (#31), I have presented six (or 7) arguments that clearly delineate the the rational for classifying the 1910 COUPON
cards as another sub-set of T206's....the 16th brand, if you will.

Besides the major differences stated in Post #31, the subsequent COUPON issues (T213-2 & 3) were issued during the 1914-1919 period.
These two sets were issued well into the post-divesture era of the American Tobacco Company. Far removed from the T206 era (which
included the 1910 COUPON issue).

So, can anyone come up with as many opposing arguments to mine....that will convince most of us that this COUPON set of 68 cards is
not be considered the 16th brand of the T206 set ?

Besides the recurring "flimsy" excuse of the cardboard stock difference.

:) Anyhow guys, once these cards are in graded plastic, who will know the difference ? ? :)


T-Rex TED

[Pup6913]

I don't know anything about this but just from reading this thread and the info in it I think it works much like my business.

When I first started out I rented equiptment to do larger jobs. After a few yrs I have everything I need for my business and then some.

So you have a Company that starts advertising in 1910 (Also is there any docs to support this date:confused:) and may have little money to do it with. If they approached the ATC to print their brand on the backs of the 206 style cards they may have chose to supply or buy the cheaper paper stock which inturn would be inferior to the 206 stock of the major companies.

They (ATC?) only have to design a back font and nothing else. The Cycle and Coupon backs are identical in every way except the name. They are the only 2 that match to a T.

But he lies the issue. Is there not Type 2's printed 3-4 yrs later with the exact same poses as the T206's. Maybe the Coupon Company bought the plates from the ATC (or however it got them) at the end of the Cycle run and changed the name only, then abtained a few players (68 right:confused:), made a print run that may have not worked all that great due to the card stock, took a few yrs off and relaunched later with a new color font and better paper stock as well as more player poses due to the T206 run being done.

Is there any evidence to support that the Cycle run ended and the Coupon company printed after that. If so the Coupon is not a T206 for sure unless it was printed before the Cycle cards.

Here are pics of the backs of the Type 1 and the Cycle T206. The next 2 are of a HR baker T206 and a Type 2 Coupon Baker.

Like I said previously I don't know the 206's but I think all the clues are there they just need arranged correctly to make the final decision accurate.

DID I WIN ANYTHING:confused::D

[Pup6913]

Just to add if the Coupons were printed after the Cycle run and the plates had to be shipped to LA for printing and set up would this not put the Coupon cards out till the end of the T206 runs and maybe this explains the small issue of them.

[drdduet]

hi Andrew,

I don't follow. What are you trying to say?

[toppcat]

Just to add if the Coupons were printed after the Cycle run and the plates had to be shipped to LA for printing and set up would this not put the Coupon cards out till the end of the T206 runs and maybe this explains the small issue of them.

Those plates never left NYC...American Lithographic printed these cards.

[teetwoohsix]

Although I agree about all of the similarities between the T206 & the T213-1's,I am not for reclassifying the T213-1's as T206's.

Every point Ted Z made in post#31 is valid,but it only makes sense to designate T213-1's into the same family as T213-2's and T213-3's.The Coupons are their own family.

Barry,you made a great point-what if there were no T213-2's and T213-3's printed after the T213-1's?Well,then I'm sure this wouldn't be a discussion,because they FOR SURE would have fallen into the T206 family.But because there were a 2nd and 3rd series,it only makes sense to include the first series with the 2nd and 3rd.

There are many similarities between the T205's and the T202 Triple Folders if you excluded the middle panel of the T202.Why doesn't anyone argue that the T202 be labeled as a T205 series extension?:eek:

[barrysloate]

At the end of the day I'm perfectly content if Coupons remain classified as T-213. But I enjoy a good debate and this surely is a lively one.

[Pup6913]

hi Andrew,

I don't follow. What are you trying to say?

I don't know what I am trying to say:D I was just making a theory based on what I read from this thread. It kinda makes sense or is my theory to simple?

Toppcat
Also its hard to say those plates never left NYC when its printed on the backs of them that they were printed in LA. It is there in B&W. All the T206's have East Coast Factories but the Type 1's are made in LA. I am just saying.

Does the theory I posed make sense to anyone other than me? Its just a possibility.

[Brian-Chidester]

I don't know what I am trying to say:D I was just making a theory based on what I read from this thread. It kinda makes sense or is my theory to simple?

Toppcat
Also its hard to say those plates never left NYC when its printed on the backs of them that they were printed in LA. It is there in B&W. All the T206's have East Coast Factories but the Type 1's are made in LA. I am just saying.

Does the theory I posed make sense to anyone other than me? Its just a possibility.

No, they DON'T say "printed in LA," they say "distr. in LA," meaning they were packaged in Coupon Cigarette packages and that brand was distributed in Louisianna.

[tedzan]

Andrew..........and, anyone else who thinks otherwise.

The American Lithographic Co. (ALC) was the America's "lithography king " firm in the late 19th & early 20th Century.
Jame Buchanan Duke of American Tobacco Co. (ATC) and ALC founder, Joseph Knapp, were very close friends and
businessmen. All sports, non-sports, and related ATC product's premiums were printed in this building in NYC.

This structure still exists in NYC at the corner of South Park Ave. & 20th Street. Nowadays, its 13 floors consist of
professional offices.

<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/americanlithographicbldg.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

At ALC, all the ATC cards (and their cigarette packs) were printed from 1909 to 1919. Including the T205's you are fond
of. Yes, the T213, T214 and T215 cards were printed at ALC. Not in New Orleans....please dismiss that thought.

The COUPON Tobacco Co. in New Orleans (Factory #3) produced tobacco products. None of the various Factory's in the
ATC monopoly printed cards ! !

From ALC in NYC, the individual cards (and uncut sheets of cigarette packs) were shipped by rail to the various Factory's
in the ATC system.


TED Z

[Orioles1954]

I had a one-card T213-1 "find" at a Reno, Nevada antique mall two years ago :)

[judsonhamlin]

I have enjoyed the give and take on this debate and I've given it some further thought, so here is my take and the rationale for my opinion.

T206-1 should represent all White Bordered ATC products issued in the 1909-12 era including T213-1 Coupon and T215-1 Red Cross - both ATC issues during this time frame.

My rationale for the T213-1 follows Ted Z.'s line of reasoning, so I won't rehash that at length here. I will add that the different T216 Mino backs were lumped in the ACC, even thought the paper stock varies among the backs.
With regard to the T215-1, I believe that the rationale against inclusion is not terribly strong. The two most cited reasons (in this thread) seem to rest on the Griffith team change and the listing of "100 subjects". Neither seem dispositive. The team change issue is not dissimilar to the Demmitt/O'Hara St. Louis issues. While Griffith's team change was late in the distribution period of this issue, we have precedent and, we also have several cards where one pose was issued with a player's new team without "redoing" the previous card (e.g. Ball, Willis, Kleinow). Griffith (Wash.) could be considered in the same group as Smith (Chi. & Bos.) or Kleinow (Bos.). Again, Ted Z. has shown the back availability for these cards, so not printing a card with each new back is not inconsistent with cards within the existing T206 framework.
With regard to the "100 Subjects" issue and, for that matter, the horizontal layout, the variety within T206 backs as currently constituted includes several distinct variants (Hindu, Polar Bear, Carolina Bright), so one more design shouldn't upset the apple cart. Further, T206 backs don't always designate a specific number of subjects, and, at least within a particular back, are not accurate (e.g. there are not 350 different Cycle-backed cards). Without a "smoking gun" like a letter between ATC and ALC (like the Uzit), much of this remains speculative, but I believe it to represent substantial proof in favor of inclusion.
Moving forward with what I recognize to be a more controversial position, it is my gut feeling that T213-2, T214 and T215-2 should be joined together for many of the same reasons that have been set forth in this thread. The single proviso would be if all three brands were under common ownership at the time of issue. If so, then join them in one set; either as T206-2 or another single designation. T213-3 should, based upon date of issue, could be listed as T206-3.
Lastly, with regard to the perceived sanctity of Burdick's decision-making, I would only note that he wasn't Adams or Jefferson and we have amended the Constitution. Precedent is persuasive, but never binding - Brown v. Bd. of Ed. and dozens of other Supreme Court cases speak to that better than I can.

[FrankWakefield]

.

[Orioles1954]

What about those "Pirate" backs, the foreign issue which we erroneously like to ascribe as T215? Would those become T206-4?

James

[barrysloate]

Another possible solution is to liberate the T206's- break them into 15 different sets, so that Cobb with a Piedmont back, and Cobb with a Sweet Caporal back, would be parts of two different sets. If all of our opinions are based on which company issued the product, then each advertising back should stand alone.

Admittedly, a Drum or Uzit set would be rather small, but so is an E93, or E94, or nearly any other candy set. Then collectors can decide if they want to complete several different subsets under the T206 umbrella, or simply collect one example of each front as they do today.

So a Piedmont set might be T206-1, a Sweet Cap T206-2, a Sovereign T206-3, etc. Then everybody would be happy (except that it would be expensive).

[judsonhamlin]

Two further observations based upon the recent posts

I think that T215 Pirates need to be given a designation outside of "T", just like any non-US tobacco issue.

For me, it is not about "wanting" a certain result; I have no horse in this race. I don't have a hidden hoard of cards that I might sell if demand for Coupon or Red Cross cards increases. Weighing all the evidence presented seems, to me, to favor this result- if not beyond reasonable doubt, at least by a probable cause level of proof.

[drdduet]

One way to consider this is to develop criteria that would do the classifying for us....

Major Criteria could include--
Front design
Front subjects/pose
Series issue
Back design
Card dimensions
Producer/Printer
Year issue
Etc.

Minor Criteria
card stock
font color
font type
etc.

And after a summit of all type pre-war guys and gals criteria could be decided upon and reclassifications may be done incorporating the facts.

For me, it's hard to ignore the look of the T213-1, the "producer", the style, the subjects, and most importantly the 68--350 series of T206. It's not just the appearance, most importantly it's the subject inclusion.

Furthermore I do like the idea of breaking up T206 into T206-1 (the first 150 subjects), T206-2 (350 Subjects), T206-3 etc, as they were all issued at different times reflecting team changes, etc. The whole idea of reclassification is to get it right and reflect more accurately all the facets of an issue.

I humbly believe the more correct the classification the more to be gained in this issue as a reference to history. Sophisticated tobacco card historians such as Ted Z., Barry A., Scott R., etc, have brought to light the detailed history of the monster. I think there is a lot to be gained by being precise and calling things by their real names.

[Epps]

If all of the T206 brands were separated into their own sets, would a complete T206 set still be 524 cards or just how many cards are under that brand?

[tedzan]

Epps, you asked......
" If all of the T206 brands were separated into their own sets, would a complete T206 set still be 524 cards
or just how many cards are under that brand? "

The answer is....NO !

Here are my numbers........

PIEDMONT, Factory #25 would be foremost....complete with 522 cards

SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30....complete with 469 cards

SOVEREIGN....complete with 407 cards

Folloiwed by OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and TOLSTOI....each consisting of approx. 300 cards

Then AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (with frame)....192 cards

And, AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 with approx. 72 cards

I'll stop here, because as is evident, the big unknown in collecting the various T206 sub-sets, is identifying the
cards that were not printed...."No-Prints". And, this is not a easy matter.


TED Z

[Pup6913]

I am still confused as to why no one has answered:

Wether or not the Type 1's were printed before or after the Cycle run?

When was the Cycle print run in accordiance to the T206 set. First, Mid, Last?? What order were the T206's run in anyways?

Is there any proof that the Coupons were actually printed in 1910 and not later after the T206 runs had been completed and made a short run for distribution.

All I have heard about is that they were printed in NYC for sure which Frank made clear for me. That they have thin paper stock (does not really matter). A few of you own them and the $ increase if it is a 206 is a blinder for an honest opinion. I think it is simple if you can answer these questions then you get your answer to wether or not the Type 1's are T206's and that the Type 2's and 3's should be Type 1's and 2's from an actuall set run later and not a continuation.

I am no expert and this is a very intriging question. I am fascinated by this and would like to learn more about the beginings of the hobby. This is why I like this era of cards. So much to learn.

[tedzan]

First of all, did you read my answer to you in my Post #47, regarding where all these Tobacco cards were printed ?

Now, for your latest question....we have documentation that indicates that the American Litho. Co. (ALC) printed
and issued the American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910. Between the Summer and Fall of 1910, ALC also
printed and issued the Broad Leaf 350, Coupon #1, Cycle 350, and Drum cards. As is obvious here in my scan, the
back design is essentially identical for all 5 of these T206 brands. This tells us that these backs were drawn by the
same artist at ALC, and in the same timeframe.

<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/at206quintuplicatedesign.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

.

[drdduet]

Criteria listed were just examples---by your statements Frank I'm sure you don't consider Cobb with Cobb back a T206 either....right?

Well it seems we rehash some of the same arguments over and over again as others familiarize themselves with the differences and similarities.

In Louisiana, most dealers have a history of referring to ALL white border tobacco cards (Victory, Pirate, Coupon, etc.) as T206's. To this day that urks the heck out of me. But I can say that it is only through sound research and the weighing of all the facts that I classify T213-1 as T206.

While this controversy may receive some mention in future catalogues and price guides, the only real determinant of the acceptance of T213-1 as T206 by the vintage card collecting community will be prices realized.

[FrankWakefield]

.

[tbob]

Bob- Ted Z. and I were discussing that find just this morning and we were wondering what the breakdown was. That is very interesting, and may explain why the type 1's are so tough- they were not brought into the market by that famous find.

Barry: Type 1 0%
Type 2 90%
Type 3 10%

Just a guess but I think a pretty good one. The most prevalent card which wasn't a common was the T213-2 Cobb. I had a near set of T213-2s with multiple cards of all HOFers and I also put together a complete T213-3 set including 1 card which was not previously known to exist. Of the cards in the 213-3 set, about 10% had the factory overprinted backs.
That's the best I can do.
tbob

[toppcat]

From ALC in NYC, the individual cards (and uncut sheets of cigarette packs) were shipped by rail to the various Factory's
in the ATC system.


TED Z

Ted-why would the packs be uncut but the cards cut?

[drdduet]

I believe all the "white border" t-cards of the period deserve a looking through--consider subject, series, design, etc...The pieces of the puzzle may reveal a bigger picture---

Just to clarify--I'm in no way saying all white borders are T206's, but I am suggesting that there are links between issues that have yet to be discovered. For example T214, T215, and T213-2 & -3--how are they related--are they similar in subjects and series in a fashion like T206? They sure look alike on the front! Is their a pattern across these issues to suggest they were the "second coming" of T206 or were they produced with leftover supplies in swamps of Louisiana...the regional separation does suggest that there was perhaps an attempt to recreate the T206 (ATC) model in Louisiana using Coupon, Victory, Red Cross, etc. instead of Piedmont, Old Mill, Drum, etc...

Similar patterns do exist in the caramel world as well between E90-1, E92, etc. and T216....Makes me wonder if the tobacco industry in Louisiana was trying to model their distribution policies after the Northeast albeit a couple of years later with the same subject manner....

I believe research of this type could help tell the tales needed to reveal the history behind the hobby's most intriguing mysteries. There must be some unifying theory out there that explains and delineates all the moving parts without faulter--to the Bat Mobile, but let's get another Abita Amber first....

[drdduet]

Furthermore,

It would be much more difficult to discover a unifying theory of this sort if one did not take into consideration the nonsports issues of this period as well. Putting it all together is possible, but not without all the pieces.

[drdduet]

And don't get me started on the T210-8 and T211 issues....

[Pup6913]

First of all, did you read my answer to you in my Post #47, regarding where all these Tobacco cards were printed ?

<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/at206quintuplicatedesign.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

TED Z

I am sorry Ted I misnamed you Frank by accident:(

As is obvious here in my scan, the
back design is essentially identical for all 5 of these T206 brands. This tells us that these backs were drawn by the
same artist at ALC, and in the same timeframe.

Also your Theory that just because they are all made or drawn by the same guy they were printed at the same time frame. Holds water like a bucket full of holes. Has there never been printing plates made for print runs then put awayt and a few yrs later brought back out and some mods made and reused?I am looking at this from a logical piont of view. We know that there are several backs of the same design. You have dating for those in the appropriate time frames. Coupons :confused:. So they could date from 1909-1913 right.

we have documentation that indicates that the American Litho. Co. (ALC) printed
and issued the American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910. Between the Summer and Fall of 1910, ALC also
printed and issued the Broad Leaf 350, Coupon #1, Cycle 350, and Drum cards.

If you have or it is definite that there is documents that 100% name and support that Coupons were printed in that date and during the T206 runs then this should have never been a disscussion because it is for 100% sure a T206 and has been misclassified and needs to be adjusted to its correct identifier. This would make the Type 2's and 3's into 1's and 2' then or make them T206-2's and 206-3's.

[tedzan]

Dave
You asked......" Ted-why would the packs be uncut but the cards cut? "

Assembled cigarette packs are 3-dimensional, and shipping them as such is not as practical as shipping stacked uncut sheets of
these packs. The T-factories certainly had the machinery (or workers) that would cut, fold, and assemble the packs on location.

Proof of this operation was found some years ago, when an uncut sheet of 24 Piedmont packs were found in an Antique shop in
North Carolina.


Thanks for a great question,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Andrew

So, you are skeptical of my "back design" theory ?

I will leave you with one more tidbit....please notice that the name "COUPON" is in quotes. This provides us with a timeline,
as the Coupon Tobacco Co. had been acquired by the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in the 1909/1910 timeframe; and, the
ATC Copyright was still pending.

Now....I will approach this argument from the "front design" facts. The 48 major league players in the COUPON #1 set are
all from the 350 series (printed and issued in late 1909 to 1910). This fact is undeniable.
Whereas, in the T213-2 & T213-3 sets, the front designs are derived from many players in the 460 series of the T206 set
that were issued in 1911. This fact by itself, is sufficient to narrow the window of time when the COUPON #1 set was is-
sued to 1910.

There are 48 Southern Leaguers (SL) in the T206 set which were ONLY printed and issued in 1909 & 1910. American Litho.
selected 20 SL (listed here) from these 48 SL in the T206 design for the COUPON #1 set that represent the region served
by the Coupon Tobacco Co.

American Litho. did not design these white-bordered cards in a random fashion. Throughout the T206 set, it is evident that
it was designed, printed and issued in a certain timeline, with a lot of due diligence. And, this includes the 1910 COUPON
set of 68 cards.


List of 1910 COUPON Southern Leaguers

Bay.....Nashville
Bernhard.....Nashville
Breitenstein.....New Orleans
Carey.....Memphis
Cranston.....Memphis
Ellam.....Nashville
Fritz.....New Orleans
Greminger....Montgomery
Hart....Montgomery
Hart.....Little Rock
Hickman.....Mobile
Jordan.....Atlanta
Lentz.....Little Rock
Molesworth.....Birmingham
Perdue.....Nashville
Persons....Montgomery
Reagan.....New Orleans
Rockenfeld.....New Orleans
Smith.....Atlanta
Thornton.....Mobile

Finally, I have to say that I don't follow your logic on your other comments.


TED Z

[toppcat]

Dave
You asked......" Ted-why would the packs be uncut but the cards cut? "

Assembled cigarette packs are 3-dimensional, and shipping them as such is not as practical as shipping stacked uncut sheets of
these packs. The T-factories certainly had the machinery (or workers) that would cut, fold, and assemble the packs on location.

Proof of this operation was found some years ago, when an uncut sheet of 24 Piedmont packs were found in an Antique shop in
North Carolina.


Thanks for a great question,

TED Z

Ted: I may have phrased it incorrectly-I meant to ask why the cards would have been cut before shipping. It would seem to me to be easier to ship uncut sheets and then cut the cards and feed them into the packs as they were assembled at each factory.

Thinking out loud, perhaps this method would explain why American Beauties are thinner, since they could have been cut at the factory and not been truly uniform compared to the cuts on other brands.

Just a WAG but curious as always on the means and methods of T206 distribution.

[drdduet]

Here's a question,

Cobb with Cobb back is most like which of the Coupon issues?

[tedzan]

Regarding your post #59......
" And Ted, while those images look nice, and the frame lines are compelling... 4 of them mention "350" one doesn't...."

Very true; however, the "COUPON" tobacco company was a recent acquire by ATC (circa 1909/1910....and, it appears as if American
Litho. (ALC) designed this set as an ASSORTED series of cards.

Let us view this COUPON issue from their FRONT's standpoint. ALC selected 48 Major Leaguers from their 350 series gallery (which we
know was in print in the Summer/Fall of 1910) and 20 Southern Leaguers from the 48 in the earlier T206 series, that best represented
the region served by the Coupon Tobacco Co.

So, I'm not concerned that the wording "350 Subjects" was omitted on the COUPON back.


Best regards my friend,

TED Z

[tedzan]

The gloss on the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back card is similar to the T213-2 cards issued in 1914-1916. However, we have
a 1910 Macon, Georgia newspaper clipping advertising this card in 1910.

Furthermore, in Senator Russell's collection there is this a Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card. Russell collected his Tobacco cards
as a teenager in the 1910-1911 period.

TED Z

[Pup6913]

Andrew

I will leave you with one more tidbit....please notice that the name "COUPON" is in quotes. This provides us with a timeline,
as the Coupon Tobacco Co. had been acquired by the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in the 1909/1910 timeframe; and, the
ATC Copyright was still pending.

Now....I will approach this argument from the "front design" facts. The 48 major league players in the COUPON #1 set are
all from the 350 series (printed and issued in late 1909 to 1910). This fact is undeniable.
Whereas, in the T213-2 & T213-3 sets, the front designs are derived from many players in the 460 series of the T206 set
that were issued in 1911. This fact by itself, is sufficient to narrow the window of time when the COUPON #1 set was is-
sued to 1910.

There are 48 Southern Leaguers (SL) in the T206 set which were ONLY printed and issued in 1909 & 1910. American Litho.
selected 20 SL (listed here) from these 48 SL in the T206 design for the COUPON #1 set that represent the region served
by the Coupon Tobacco Co.

American Litho. did not design these white-bordered cards in a random fashion. Throughout the T206 set, it is evident that
it was designed, printed and issued in a certain timeline, with a lot of due diligence. And, this includes the 1910 COUPON
set of 68 cards.


TED Z


Ted this is exactly what I was looking for to hear. So with this info there is no doubt that the Type 1's were printed during the T206 runs thus making the Type 1's another sub set of the T206's. So hearing all this I vote that Coupons should be reclassified to T206's and now the part about where the Type 2's and 3's should go. Would they as well as some other Sets be able to fall into T206-2's?

[FrankWakefield]

.

[teetwoohsix]

I have to agree Frank.I HIGHLY respect Ted Z's knowledge on the subject(and also everyone else contributing to this thread),but I still feel the same way about it.

I am not for reclassifying these T cards,regardless of any and all similarities.There are obvious reasons T213-1's are grouped with the T213-2's and T213-3's.Jefferson Burdick did not go into this blind.

If you want to change a Burdick designation to a card,why not go after changing the H801-7 Old Mill Cabinets????This is something I think everyone would agree on-that these examples should've been assigned a "T" code.

This is a great discussion-I love it!!But I do not want to see T206 turn into "T206-1,T206-2,etc.,etc.,.........it's already big enough guys!!Except for some certain T206 collectors who have been collecting T206's for decades,and have completed the set and many sub-sets within.........hhhmmmnnn.....:D:D

[ethicsprof]

I,too, have faith in Mr. Burdick.
But I also know from spending a career serving as editor of numerous published volumes written by distinguished figures in my own field, that the very best make errors and have no problem with the 'touch ups' which make their work better and sometimes even the best out there. Errata sections still are added to and adjusted to volumes written by the giants in all fields which show how indebted to them we are for their work, so much so that we give our scholarly lives to fully assimilating,honoring,and,yes, expanding their work. This is the honor that I think this thread is bestowing upon Mr. Burdick.
For me this thread is groundbreaking.
Darren has helped me to recognize a major weakness in my own approach which i am going to tackle for some time---when he suggests that there are links between issues that have yet to be discovered and that there may be a
'unifying theory' that makes some sense of the various moving parts we are sorting through. Ted's primacy of piedmont theory with trajectories through the various series and backs is a major illuminator in beginning to discern the 'unifying theory'. Stepping back and coming to grips with the reason for
the relative 'centrality' of various regions at various times,e.g. Darren's point re: louisiana and coupon,victory,red cross, etc. is a must in the 'unifying' task. Clearly delineating the various 'battles' between tobacco companies,candy companies, and the like with attention given to dating, geographical locations/factories particularly, and star baseball players who may well be critical to the discussion is a must in this 'unifying' task. And there are other elements which will arise 'in media res'.
Granted, it may well be that we will find that these pieces of the 'puzzle' are largely chaotic,haphazard pieces of little or limited design but i just don't think so...today.

all the best,
barry

[teetwoohsix]

You brought up a key question Barry-is it an error?Is it something overlooked?Or was it deliberate?

Just for the record,Darren,Ted Z,Frank,Barry & Barry,and too many to name have far more experience & knowledge than I do on these cards.But I do my homework also,as much as possible-I learn so much from you all-thank you.

I am not discounting anyone's theories or saying anyone's wrong.

I only speak my opinion,and try not to be offensive.

So,in my last two posts,I've brought up a couple of things-T205's with similarities to T202,and the H801-7's(which seem to belong in some way to the same group as T210's).I only use these as a couple of examples of how these cards/cabinets,etc. can somehow seem to be tied together,but have their own designations.......and there are plenty more(as Darren stated)........so where does it go and where does it end??

Thanks for the great thread,one of the best IMO.

Sincerely,Clayton

[ullmandds]

So you guys choose to have this discussion...one of my favorite topics, while i'm on vacation in SE Asia?!?!

Question...has any set's designation ever been changed from acc designation? I'm guessing not.

I re-cast my vote for coupon type I's inclusion in t206...as well as any other white borders with brown/black type...but would also be ok if all of the different backs were known as separate sets...but...this will never happen...T206 is an institution...perhaps the most well known of all baseball sets ever...it would confuse too many!

I have 3 of them, by the way...1 sgc 40...1 50...and 1 20...and I'd rank them betwen red hindu and lenox as well...great discussion though...perhaps I'll rejoin it in Bali...or in-between thai massages!

[tedzan]

Double post.

[iggyman]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190373320947&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT

Ebay items like the above link, is what makes that flea market so darn unique, and is something that "Grand Salami" will have to somehow emulate if they are to be truly successful. So I'm browsing eBay, going through the usual piles and piles of "Sanford and Sons" quasi reprints. When all of a sudden, I encounter a T206 Grossman with a Sovereign back. No big deal, but I look at the insides and........wait a minute......this auction is actually for a T213-1 Grossman, and the opening bid is only $49.99 bucks!!! No way! Holy heck! So I put in a snipe and hope for the best..............Alas, never the bride always the bridesmaid.

Lovely Day...

[drdduet]

Lucky I didn't see it!