Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

[vintagechris]

I am interested in knowing if people are still bidding on Legendary Auctions. Have their legal problems caused you to not bid? Did anyone have any issues with their last auction as far as receiving items they bought?

[bcbgcbrcb]

I have never had any problems receiving items from them and I have averaged about 1 pick-up per each of their last 3-4 auctions.

[Jim VB]

I am interested in knowing if people are still bidding on Legendary Auctions. Have their legal problems caused you to not bid? Did anyone have any issues with their last auction as far as receiving items they bought?


I don't think that delivery of goods was ever on the list of problems Mastro/Legendary has had.

[where the gold at?]

i bid once in there april 2009 auction on a 1941 Playball set all SGC graded i was out bid which is fine and dandy but the exact same set is in their auction again.........FACT

[HRBAKER]

An addict has to get his crack somewhere.

[drc]

Interesting quote Jeff. Some drugs can't be obtained above board.

[HRBAKER]

Interesting quote Jeff. And crack can't be found above board.


Just to say, that in the end when dealing with a hobby or obsession most times the stuff wins out.

[Leon]

I bid in every auction and have never had an issue. A few times the shipping was a bit out of whack but 1 phone call and it was always taken care of. I have my sights set on several lots in their current auction.

[barrysloate]

I will be bidding too, and never had a problem. Delivering lots to winning bidders has not been an issue.

[Ladder7]

"Please note: If you already have a Mastro Auctions bidder account, you are automatically registered for all Legendary Auctions. Your Mastro Auctions Username and Password will allow you to log in and participate in this auction."

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0123/5029/2349873031_fb17960571_feature.jpg

[calvindog]

After they defrauded me (and you) for years, they finally banned me. If you're a consignor of a high end Cobb card, however, don't worry; I'm pretty sure there is a secretary or some other unknowing 'bidder' who will make up for my missing bids. They won't win the auctions, of course, but the bids will be raised to the level that Doug feels is appropriate.

[barrysloate]

Does "(and you)" mean me?

[Orioles1954]

Maybe its because I'm surrounded by cardboard all day, every day, but if you think something is out of whack with auction house xyz and continue to bid with them....then you are helping to perpetuate such actions. Let me put it bluntly, if an "obsession" with cardboard overrides your sense of morals or integrity, then you seriously have priority issues.

[three25hits]

If they will screw their consignors, and they will screw their business partners, then at some point they will screw their bidders. (a)



a. they and their are rhetorical and not specific to anyone at all (b)


b. unless anyone specific actually screws their consignors and screws their business partners (c)


c. hypothetically speaking

[Wite3]

Simply put...no...I will not bid with them...I feel they are still unethical at the least and criminal at the most. I can usually find the items I look for (lower grade and usually available) other places.

Joshua

[calvindog]

Maybe its because I'm surrounded by cardboard all day, every day, but if you think something is out of whack with auction house xyz and continue to bid with them....then you are helping to perpetuate such actions. Let me put it bluntly, if an "obsession" with cardboard overrides your sense of morals or integrity, then you seriously have priority issues.

Yes, it's the victims' fault. It's the victims' lack of morals and integrity that allows them to get defrauded. Good reasoning here; you'd be a defense lawyer's dream on a rape trial.

[Orioles1954]

Yes, it's the victims' fault. It's the victims' lack of morals and integrity that allows them to get defrauded. Good reasoning here; you'd be a defense lawyer's dream on a rape trial.

Jeff,

Cease with the drama and the "rape trial" and all that other drivel. You know exactly what the point it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

it is kinda pathetic -- we (using the collective loosely) bitch and moan and cast aspersion and shake our heads in disgust -- and then eagerly open up the catalog to see what's in the new auction.

[Orioles1954]

Pete,

Exactly, but remember you're a "victim" if you willingly participate in the action, fully aware and knowing of what is occuring.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Addiction/obsession makes for thick coats of teflon.

[slidekellyslide]

Yes, it's the victims' fault. It's the victims' lack of morals and integrity that allows them to get defrauded. Good reasoning here; you'd be a defense lawyer's dream on a rape trial.

This comment is out of line.

[Bosox Blair]

Never bid - won't bid.

This thread got me thinking...I believe I have only ever purchased cards from people I respect. This is not so much a moral position as a way I prefer to do business.

I am not tempted by the material...I have 100% faith that I'll be able to get any card I could ever want from a good guy at some point down the road.

Brief story: went to a card show recently. The place was awash in junk - a sea of shiny inserts and such. At one table there was a guy with good pre-war material. I walked up to him with a pocket full of cash...a rarity at this show that had way more lookers than buyers. After one minute of chatting with him, I knew he was a total tool. I exited the show with not one item in hand.

Pretty much the same idea with how I choose auction houses.

Cheers,
Blair

[Orioles1954]

Never bid - won't bid.

This thread got me thinking...I believe I have only ever purchased cards from people I respect. This is not so much a moral position as a way I prefer to do business.

I am not tempted by the material...I have 100% faith that I'll be able to get any card I could ever want from a good guy at some point down the road.

Brief story: went to a card show recently. The place was awash in junk - a sea of shiny inserts and such. At one table there was a guy with good pre-war material. I walked up to him with a pocket full of cash...a rarity at this show that had way more lookers than buyers. After one minute of chatting with him, I knew he was a total tool. I exited the show with not one item in hand.

Cheers,
Blair

Good for you, that's a great way to be! (even if you are a Red Sox fan) ;)

[calvindog]

Stop with your holier than thou preaching. Only in this hobby are fraudsters coddled and protected so much. It becomes so ingrained in everyone's minds that it's ok for a little fraud to occur, it's just the way we things are done here and have always been. Someone lies at a show about a card's significance in order to make a few more bucks? Ahh, who cares, shake it off. Auctions are dripping with fraud? Ahh, who cares as long as it's not directed solely at me. I know what can make it better -- contracts signed by the auction house principals in which they promise not to rip us off! Yeah, that's the ticket. How about this concept? Don't break the law, period. It's not the victims' faults if they are robbed, it's the responsibility of the perpetrators of the fraud. Someone asked about Legendary and I told them. If you have something to add about Legendary, have the balls to say it; otherwise shut your hole.

[Bicem]

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…

[three25hits]

The only major auction house I have purchased from in the last 4 years is REA.

Do I know they are clean? Nope. But that uncertainty doesn't compel me to buy from those I know are dirty.

[Bicem]

The only major auction house I have purchased from in the last 4 years is REA.


Dang, wish I had your patience!

[rdixon1208]

I would never do business with them. I guess I am not as into collecting as some of you, but it's just not worth it to me. I won't do business with someone that I don't think is honest...no matter how bad I want an item. I wish nobody would bid in their auction. Then nobody would consign to them. The material would still be sold...but it would be consigned through a more honest auction house. It all seems like common sense to me, but I'm just one guy from Texas.;)

[slidekellyslide]

I'm curious what some of you guys would do if Legendary were to auction off for example an 1893 Just So Cy Young and you needed that card for your Rookie Collection, or you are trying to complete the Just So set (This is obviously hypothetical) and you know that a certain Ivy League collector is your competition and you also know this Ivy League collector has vowed to be buried with his collection. Do you bid in the auction or does your moral compass tell you that your lifelong collecting dream of having the Cy Young rookie card die right then and there?

[three25hits]

I'm curious what some of you guys would do if Legendary were to auction off for example an 1893 Just So Cy Young and you needed that card for your Rookie Collection, or you are trying to complete the Just So set (This is obviously hypothetical) and you know that a certain Ivy League collector is your competition and you also know this Ivy League collector has vowed to be buried with his collection. Do you bid in the auction or does your moral compass tell you that your lifelong collecting dream of having the Cy Young rookie card die right then and there?

My personal choice is not to do business with certain auction houses. There isn't a hypothetical situation that would make me change my stance. I don't even look at the lots in those houses. I am not sure why its such a big deal. I make my money. And I choose where to spend it.

[Orioles1954]

Stop with your holier than thou preaching. Only in this hobby are fraudsters coddled and protected so much. It becomes so ingrained in everyone's minds that it's ok for a little fraud to occur, it's just the way we things are done here and have always been. Someone lies at a show about a card's significance in order to make a few more bucks? Ahh, who cares, shake it off. Auctions are dripping with fraud? Ahh, who cares as long as it's not directed solely at me. I know what can make it better -- contracts signed by the auction house principals in which they promise not to rip us off! Yeah, that's the ticket. How about this concept? Don't break the law, period. It's not the victims' faults if they are robbed, it's the responsibility of the perpetrators of the fraud. Someone asked about Legendary and I told them. If you have something to add about Legendary, have the balls to say it; otherwise shut your hole.

Jeff, I actually agree with you with most of this statement. Here is my problem. In past threads over the years you admitted to bidding with Mastro in order to obtain a very rare Hal Chase, Ty Cobb or any number of other rare cards. Then you would malign the same auction, even if you were actively participating. Not to cast dispersions on you Jeff, but weren't you funding these "fraudsters" with thousands of dollars who are "coddled and protected so much"? So here's a novel idea, don't fund perpetrators so they can continue to break the law even if they have an incredible piece of cardboard that you can't live without.

[calvindog]

Brian, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your position. And Dan, your point is well-taken but I just think you need to appreciate that only in rare circumstances can someone who bids on these auctions be responsible for being defrauded. As Jeff P notes, who knows what goes on during these auctions? One day an auction house is supposedly clean, the next day it's not. Maybe none of them are clean. I suppose if you want to be 100% sure you won't be defrauded you can simply stop buying cards; but this is just not a realistic situation. As I said, all we can hope for is that the auction houses obey the law of the land, nothing more, nothing less.

[calvindog]

Jeff, I actually agree with you with most of this statement. Here is my problem. In past threads over the years you admitted to bidding with Mastro in order to obtain a very rare Hal Chase, Ty Cobb or any number of other rare cards. Then you would malign the same auction, even if you were actively participating. Not to cast dispersions on you Jeff, but weren't you funding these "fraudsters" with thousands of dollars who are "coddled and protected so much"? So here's a novel idea, don't fund perpetrators so they can continue to break the law even if they have an incredible piece of cardboard that you can't live without.

James, who knows who is clean? Remember when Mastro was supposedly clean? Somehow I suspect if I had a shot to look at the bidding records of every major auction house I'd find something going on. So what do you do? Just stop bidding? You have two choices: you can either accept being defrauded or you can do what you can to stop the fraudsters from breaking the law. If I didn't bid in anyone's auctions I'd just give up the hobby. That's the choice you are suggesting which I'm not prepared to do yet.

[Bosox Blair]

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…

In the last couple years I have bid with REA, B&L and Heroes of Sport. Before I registered to bid with any of those, I had some form of personal exchange with each of Rob, Leon and young Mr. Jaimet that led me to have respect for them. Also, each had many who vouched for their above-board dealings. And I reviewed auction results from REA and B&L - I saw nothing to concern me in the way of outlandish results or outlier prices. Could any of them possibly be doing something offside? I suppose so. But I don't think so.

With Ebay, I have had many pleasant dealings with people. I end up being a repeat customer of many of these guys. I consider David B and bagger77 (Dave) to be great and stand-up guys. Basically, you are safe to buy from any guy named Dave :D.

Cheers,
Blair

[slidekellyslide]

Brian, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your position. And Dan, your point is well-taken but I just think you need to appreciate that only in rare circumstances can someone who bids on these auctions be responsible for being defrauded. As Jeff P notes, who knows what goes on during these auctions? One day an auction house is supposedly clean, the next day it's not. Maybe none of them are clean. I suppose if you want to be 100% sure you won't be defrauded you can simply stop buying cards; but this is just not a realistic situation. As I said, all we can hope for is that the auction houses obey the law of the land, nothing more, nothing less.

I just know I'm looking forward to this case proceeding and I hope the guilty parties are punished enough to make sure that others think very hard about committing the same things. I really wonder how much the skyrocketing values of cards in this hobby over the last decade or so are due solely to fraudulent activity combined with the "need" to have it mentality of many collectors.

[three25hits]

I should clarify my response. My response of REA only was in the context of those that send catalogs.

If we broaden the question to any auction, in addition to REA, I have purchased from B&L (one lot), 19thcentury (one lot) and ebay (several) in the last 4 years.

[barrysloate]

I agree with Jeff that you shouldn't in any way support people who commit fraud, but in the world of baseball memorabilia, if you are going to follow that rule to the letter of the law, you really need to find another hobby. Because for as long as I have been in this industry, fraud has been a way of life for a great many. It's unfortunate, but the fact that collectors are addicted and have a good deal of money plays into the hands of all the shady sellers. And while I have met a number of truly honest and fair people, they very well may be in the minority. And for all the stories of fraud we hear about on this board, there are oh so many more that don't go public. It's really pretty sad.

[bmarlowe1]

Very recently in a thread in this forum we saw that Leland's auctioned a photo of Miller Huggins that was easily shown to be Al Bridwell, and they knew it well before the auction closed. The got over 3 grand from someone for it.

I wonder how many people saw that, yet will still bid on items offered by Leland's.

[rdixon1208]

You have two choices: you can either accept being defrauded or you can do what you can to stop the fraudsters from breaking the law. If I didn't bid in anyone's auctions I'd just give up the hobby. That's the choice you are suggesting which I'm not prepared to do yet.

I believe that there is a third choice....don't bid with an auction house that you know is fraudulent. That doesn't mean don't bid with anyone unless you know without a doubt that they are 100% clean.

[Bicem]

what if we are only kinda sure that they are fraudulent, like 50/50?

[calvindog]

I believe that there is a third choice....don't bid with an auction house that you know is fraudulent. That doesn't mean don't bid with anyone unless you know without a doubt that they are 100% clean.

But how do you know that an auction house is a fraud when so many people on this board put up a BS defense for them, knowing full well they are lying in order to protect a 'friend?'

[jcmtiger]

I have consigned and bought items from Mastro in the past, everything went well. I have also bought from Lelands, 19th Century, ebay and antique stores.
Probably others that I don't remember. Since my interest is only 19th Century Detroit for the last few years, most auctions don't have anything I want or need. I have seen fraud from ebay, antique stores, and card shows when they were popular, not so much from the auction houses. I am willing to wait and see what happens with MASTRO anyway.

Joe

[bcornell]

"In May 2006, Mastro spoke with a collector regarding a L-1 Leather Ty Cobb item (a piece of leather with Cobb's likeness on it) that was then selling for $17,000. During that conversation, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum of $41,000. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector's maximum bid."
- Michael O'Keeffe article

I've stopped calling auction houses to remind them about my max bids. They can look it up in their database if they want to bump me.

[bijoem]

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…


Jeff....

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying it is not rational to avoid someone who has been caught.... because you don't know what others have done (who have yet to be caught)?

[paul]

"Please note: If you already have a Mastro Auctions bidder account, you are automatically registered for all Legendary Auctions. Your Mastro Auctions Username and Password will allow you to log in and participate in this auction."

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0123/5029/2349873031_fb17960571_feature.jpg

Is that Nuf Ced McGreevey? If so, your post is absolutely fantastic and apparently went unappreciated.

[calvindog]

Wow, good catch - and good point.

[Bicem]

Jeff....

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying it is not rational to avoid someone who has been caught.... because you don't know what others have done (who have yet to be caught)?

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time ;))? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

[Leon]

Thanks Jeff..:)

[sox1903wschamp]

"Please note: If you already have a Mastro Auctions bidder account, you are automatically registered for all Legendary Auctions. Your Mastro Auctions Username and Password will allow you to log in and participate in this auction."

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0123/5029/2349873031_fb17960571_feature.jpg

"Nuf Ced" Very nice Steve :)

[bijoem]

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time ;))? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.


I see your point about most being dirty....
but I don't share your viewpoint of an 'all' or 'none' when it comes to refusing to do business with an auction house.

They may all be dirty.... I really don't know....
but I reserve the right to pick and choose the grade of dirty that I don't like most :D

Right now - there are two auction houses that I avoid. They've turned my stomach at some point.... so, I really don't care to send them a check. Its not etched in stone, its just how I feel right now.

There may be auction houses that do or have done worse things. But these two managed to find my stomach-turning grade of dirty.

[MikeS]

All I can say is I have known Bill Mastro since I was a kid and learned everything about the industry from him (The good and the bad...just to same some BS replies on this post). Even through all the bad publicity I still chose Mastro Auctions for my consignments for the same reason Jeff mentioned in his posts. The fact is its human nature to dwell on a certain negative instance, but one still needs to measure the good from the past. The professionalism, knowledge and service was impeccable and when my consignment of the highest graded Walter Mails game goes for under $10K....I have a hard time believing shill bidding was common practice. Bottom line is...you go with the one who brings the consignor the best terms, has the largest membership to get your item in front of them and one who has the knowledge and service to boot

[Jim VB]

Just to be clear, Mike...

You've known Mastro for years.
You're aware of all that's been said about them.
You are AGREEING with Jeff.

And you rolled that all together and decided to stick with...Legendary?

[jcmtiger]

Mike S, I have known Bill Mastro for years and he did a lot of good things for the Hobby. I have read all the negative input from past posts and press reports. I am willing to wait until all information is ruled on. Also he and Rob Lifson now at Robert Edwards Auctions, at one time worked very closely together in the 70's and 80's didn't they? This is the Auction House that everyone likes right now. If I am wrong about that , let me know. If the statement about Rob Lifson is wrong, then I will retract it.

Joe

[three25hits]

MikeS,

Good luck getting paid. (a)

Brian



a. I say this to anyone consigning an item to any house

[jcmtiger]

Brian, did you have a problem getting paid from a Mastro Auction?

Joe

[Bosox Blair]

Also he and Rob Lifson now at Robert Edwards Auctions, at one time worked very closely together in the 70's and 80's didn't they? This is the Auction House that everyone likes right now.

Joe

Are we supposed to get something from that? I'd like to hear if somone has an issue with REA or Rob Lifson. From all I've gathered, he and his operation are as squeaky clean as they come in this business. Rob Lifson has been an FBI consultant and a Justice Department expert witness on pretty much all issues of concern in this hobby/business. His statements of ethics and practice are by far the strongest I've seen in this area.

If someone has something different to say, I'd like to hear it. I'm not interested in loose insinuations.

Cheers,
Blair

[MikeS]

Jim-

Just saw your post and yes...I am aware of all the bad rap on Masto, I agree with Jeff and I still chose Legendary (Mastro at the time). The fact is they did a great job with my item back at the live event following the National back in 2008 with regards to exposure/marketing and didn't have a problem getting paid. The reason why I chose them is they showed the most interest in representing my item and they truely wanted my business. I know that software has changed over the years and I was never a fan of the two option bid..."my max bid" and "straight line bid" for this confusion would hurt the buyer and benefit the house. I know some sites still use this method and I know bidders who thought they were leaving the max bid, but straight lined it instead and entered into a binding contract. Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus. Look at the auction format you are participating in and bid accordingly. In conclusion, last time I checked this wasn't the most ethical hobby out there. After reading many posts, I'm sure no one in this forum has ever misrepresented their item in a business transaction (oh I didn't see that spider crease), or took advatage buying something off somone who didn't know what they had. Is that ethical.....no...but it happens.

[three25hits]

Brian, did you have a problem getting paid from a Mastro Auction?

Joe


Nope I don't consign to them so I have no fears for myself. I do have a problem with anyone having a problem getting paid what they are due, when they are due it, by whoever they submit to.

[Orioles1954]

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time ;))? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

The only way to obtain cards is through auction houses? Private transactions, BST, trades, the National and many other means don't exist any more? You should either submit to shill bidding or give up the hobby? By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

[Bicem]

By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

ready when you are...

[Bicem]

The only way to obtain cards is through auction houses? Private transactions, BST, trades, the National and many other means don't exist any more? You should either submit to shill bidding or give up the hobby?

By the way, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that for me personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I told myself that I wouldn't allow myself to bid with Legendary b/c of their past fraud but go ahead and bid with the other guys who I also believe have committed past fraud. :confused:

Obviously, auction houses are not the only way to obtain cards, but they do seem to have about 90% of what I want to collect.

[calvindog]

By the way, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that for me personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I told myself that I wouldn't allow myself to bid with Legendary b/c of their past fraud

Um, watch your tenses there, boy. I'd hate for you to think that all is well going forward.

[Bicem]

sorry, ongoing fraud.

[bijoem]

By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.


They are young yet..... give them some time. ;)

[HRBAKER]

"Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus."

Surely part of this equation should be the expectation on the part of the bidder of a legitimate "arms length" transaction.

[calvindog]

"Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus."

Surely part of this equation should be the expectation on the part of the bidder of a legitimate "arms length" transaction.

Apparently not. This sort of mentality is what allows shill bidding to go on unfettered: "oh well, I paid what I thought the card was worth so it's all good." But it's not all good if the card could have been had for less than your max bid and for less than what you thought the card might be worth. This is why it is an auction and not a tag sale. Also, when a card is shilled to a level beyond what the card would have sold for minus the fraud, the next time that card comes up for auction either in that grade or a different one, a false precedent has been set. Even if no direct fraud occurs in the latter auction, the impact of the prior fraud is real.

And sadly, why am I saying this....again? How many more years do we need to hear the basic concepts of Fraud 101? This is pretty basic stuff, right?

[HRBAKER]

Jeff you and I are in agreement and that was the point of my post.

[Bicem]

what's the solution Jeff?

[HRBAKER]

The only solution on a local level is if you think you are getting hosed, don't get in the pool.

[barrysloate]

The solution is for law enforcement to go after these auction houses, and if they are convicted of fraud, to penalize them heavily.

As far as whether or not to bid, I don't have an answer. Certainly Jeff is correct that if you leave a ceiling bid and the lot gets to the limit due to shilling, it's not acceptable at all. You should only have to pay one increment above the last real bid. Period. And if one were to boycott all auction houses where even the possibility of fraud exists, then it's time to find a new hobby.

[Rob D.]

To follow up on Jeff's point, I wish I had a dollar for every time a member of this board posted something along the line of "I don't have to worry about shill bidding because I just plug in the max I'm willing to pay and forget about it."

[MikeS]

Well I always thought if you bid with your head and your budget in mind, you wouldn't overpay. Of course many will overbid because they cherish and want the item for their collection so they set a high personal expectation. I think most people still live in that "last 5 sec" rule of Ebay where u plug in a high spend and most of the time its concludes lower than your bid....in instances where you win. Most sites offer the 30min rule and this is where you have control of your own destiny. Plugging in a max bid with two weeks to go is the bidders fault if their intention is to get the item lower than what they bid. I understand most peoples gripe and true it's unethical, but I haven't seen an indictments so far. What blows my mind about "shill bids" is that in the end the buyer still got an authentic lot. I went to the CCorner after reading many of member posts, but this site still remains in business and completely makes the industry look bad with all those great autographs and Morales certs. People are still bidding on these and this is true fraud, but no one seems to care except poke fun. Think its time to drop the scapegoats and move on. If anything, bidders and collectors should come away from this to be weary, do your research and find the best house or site that serves your needs. If you don't like another site/house...then don't use them, but don't tell others what not to do unless you have a personal instance to share and focus on the good traits of the company you like.

[barrysloate]

People may make light of CC over on the memorabilia side but everybody wants them shut down. That they have been able to operate the way they do for so long and still be in business says a lot to me about law enforcement. I'm sure the feds know about what goes on over there, and yet what have they done about it? Nobody really understands how it has gone on for so long. Clearly, CC understands how the system works.

[barrysloate]

And Mike to touch on your other point, people who bid on baseball memorabilia are not always rational. They bid emotionally and often ending up going way past their intended maximum. And while it's not good to blame the victim, unfortunately auction houses know this and take advantage of them. This has been going on as long as I've been in this business, and probably longer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't for a second condone shill bidding, but to me, as an issue, it pales next to card doctoring/misrepresentation of memorabilia.

[HRBAKER]

I don't for a second condone shill bidding, but to me, as an issue, it pales next to card doctoring/misrepresentation of memorabilia.

Yes Peter, you would think we all collect used cars wouldn't you?

[barrysloate]

I agree Peter. Overpaying for something isn't good, but at least you get the item. Buying an altered or counterfeit piece is much worse, because you get nothing. But it's all bad.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Of course it isn't necessarily an either/or, as I am sure there are countless instances of paying a shilled price for an altered card or a misrepresented item.

[calvindog]

I have to laugh at some of the reasoning on this board, seriously.

Ok, one last time, very slowly:

if you are defrauded by x number of dollars due to a shill bid and you receive an authentic card at an unauthentic price, you are out x dollars.

if you purchase an altered card with the assumption it is not altered, you have been defrauded by the amount that the card is worth as advertised as unaltered minus the amount that the card is worth advertised as altered. If that difference is x dollars, then each fraud described above has the same financial impact on the buyers.

Mike, as for the mentality that "if you bid with your head and your budget in mind, you wouldn't overpay" this does not excuse shill bidding which raises the final price to a level that that the bidder still believes is appropriate if he is 'bidding with his head.' All that means is that his 'head' is unaware of the true value of the card.

And Jeff P, the only solution is law enforcement or civil lawsuits brought against the auction houses. It is clear to me based on the high incidence of lowlifes that head up most of the auction houses in our hobby that they cannot be trusted to police themselves. I wrote about this in 2006(!) that it was clear to me why fraudsters (convicted or soon to be) gravitate towards this hobby/business. It's just too easy for them to steal in an unfettered, unmonitored fashion. And reading some comments on this thread, the victims themselves don't even want to be considered victims most of the time. It's almost as if the government/law enforcement need to protect some of the victims here from themselves.

[Leon]

Hey, you guys quit throwing Scott and I (B & L) under the bus, would ya'?;) We are still young in the auction business but have done no wrong and our intent is to do no wrong. If you want to see real market prices check our auctions. I can't really give opinions of other auction houses but only very few come to mind where I don't think anything wrong has happened. I will leave it at that :). best regards

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes Jeff you can look at it in that reductionist way, but typically the gap between the value of a card altered v. as holdered will be a hell of a lot more than a bid level or two.

[calvindog]

I don't doubt that. But I also think that in any given auction, the incidence of shill bidding per lot might be greater than the incidence of altered cards offered.

And for argument's sake, if an altered card is in a numbered holder the owner of that card very well might be able to get his purchase price back upon resale; the same cannot be said for the buyer of a shilled card at auction. How many of you have sold cards on ebay and wondered why the hell you can't get back even close to your purchase price?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't doubt that. But I also think that in any given auction, the incidence of shill bidding per lot might be greater than the incidence of altered cards offered.

Depends who the consignors are. :D:D And I would go with altered cards, generally speaking.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff for non-commodity cards, the conversion of one buyer to a seller can significantly affect the price. EDIT TO ADD Also ebay's increment structure inherently makes for lower prices. So shilling is not always the explanation.

[calvindog]

None of this is an exact science without a review of the bidding records of any auction. And we have learned from Mastro's destruction of bidding records that the crooks will do anything they can to avoid having to disclose them. Doug Allen probably still has his third grade baseball jersey squirreled away somewhere but bidding records? No, they had to go.

[botn]

How many of you have sold cards on ebay and wondered why the hell you can't get back even close to your purchase price?

Not a fair conclusion Jeff. eBay's 24/7 365 format makes it tough to get buyers' attention. An auction that takes place on a specific date with an accompanied catalog permits buyers to make the date in the calendar. Not everyone who buys cards can sit around scanning ebay every day.

Further I am quite certain that the number of altered cards in holders and bogus authenticated memorabilia far surpasses the incidents of shill bidding (even if you are counting number of individual shill bids placed). I am absolutely certain that if you were able to measure how much the card doctor/dealers have made over the years it would dwarf the total amount of bids which constitute shill bids over the same period. It is safe to say that the principals of auction houses are not making as much as individual dealers who trim up cards, and by whatever means available to them, get them into holders and then pass the worthless items off to collectors.

[Orioles1954]

What percentage of lots in a given Mastro Auction (or any other suspected auctions) do you all think were/have been shilled?

[Jim VB]

Jim-

In conclusion, last time I checked this wasn't the most ethical hobby out there.



The "hobby" is an inanimate object. It can't be ethical or unethical. Only the people in the hobby can display those traits. When they do, the best solution is to avoid doing business with them. Period.

[Orioles1954]

ready when you are...

Jeff,

With the auction house I work for I've never witnessed any shilling, alterations or knowing misrepresentation of any item. We take pride in what we do. We are hopeful that hobbyists will take stock in us and have confidence that they are taking part in an honest auction. Those who know me personally know I wouldn't take part or stay silent on any questionable activities.

[MikeS]

Calvin....I understand your point, but just a heads up....if you think selling via Ebay warrants your ROI from an item previously purchased then I want to buy what you're smoking. Its a trading post that involves many variables that auction houses don't deal with. Houses use marketing and membership to satisfy demand and focus on the niche of whichever industry they focus in. Ebay membership if vast, but still does not have a huge membership of deep pocket individuals willing to sit there and sift through yours and other sellers lots. Everyone should know that the majority of sales off Ebay are going to go below book and there will be times where it sells so high you have to sit back and scratch your head. If you have a chance can you send me the most recent 4000 page catalog that Ebay puts out...I must not be on the mailing list.

[barrysloate]

Here's one way an unethical auction house operates:

Auction houses get to know the bidding habits of their best customers, and know that certain whales, particularly those who are working on top registry sets, will almost never stop bidding on a rare high grade card, say a "1 of 1." And they pretty much know that if they bump a bid on one of those cards their customer will certainly come back and bid again. These bidders, or marks, will never win any of these pieces unless a world's record price is achieved.

I know often the board is incredulous when they see a high grade vintage card selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars, and don't believe the transaction ever took place. And there is always a board member who seems to know who won it and therefore assumes the transaction was legitimate. So the problem is not whether the card sold, which it did, but how it got to that stratospheric level.

That is why so many of the whales leave the hobby rather abruptly. At some point they discover how they were treated and they drop out. And this has been going on for a very long time.

[calvindog]

Greg/Mike: I didn't mean to use ebay as a sole example for resale. Poor resale prices in consecutive auctions for the same cards is evident as well, the only difference being lack of fraud in the latter auctions.

And Greg, I appreciate your insight as to altered cards and would love to hear more. As you know, my belief that Mastro (and other auction houses) have been engaged in shill bidding for years was first sparked simply by looking at the anecdotal proof from the auctions themselves: bidding patterns, final prices, etc. I thought it was pretty obvious and I feel certain today that my beliefs were well-founded. I'm not an expert on altered cards but would appreciate learning more as to how the doctors work on alterations and, just as importantly, work with the auction house heads.

[botn]

Jeff,

I am in no way implying that shill bidding does not exist. Was just trying to point out that it is my opinion that card and memorabilia altering is a much larger business.

We are presented graded altered cards and, more often than not, the alteration is right in front of our face yet buyers will purchase the card anyway. My experience has demonstrated that many buyers prefer to just rely on the grade assigned to the card rather than making their own assessment of the quality of the card. Be it a desire to fill a hole in the collection or a lack of expertise, they will rely on the graded holder to tell them what they are getting, even if it is misleading. So it is not like there has been a precedent set by collectors to ever mitigate their damages.

Bids are placed in auction houses without the public knowing who they are bidding against. How can any of us, absent complete bidding records, say with certainty that we were shilled? Shouldn't we try to clean up the obvious before we start looking for things which are more uncertain and less quantifiable?

When a top all is placed, and if it is maxed out artificially, that is the price the buyer was willing to pay. Not implying that is what they should pay or how the system should work but how does that differ in form to a buyer deciding to plop down money for his encapsulated trimmed card in which he will be overpaying for that card whose true value is a very small percentage of what is being considered?

Don’t know about you but if I had to pick I would prefer to pay too much for an item which is exactly what it is deemed to be rather than to buy something which I can later find out to be a product of some card doctors efforts that never should have been graded.

[slidekellyslide]

Here's one way an unethical auction house operates:

Auction houses get to know the bidding habits of their best customers, and know that certain whales, particularly those who are working on top registry sets, will almost never stop bidding on a rare high grade card, say a "1 of 1." And they pretty much know that if they bump a bid on one of those cards their customer will certainly come back and bid again. These bidders, or marks, will never win any of these pieces unless a world's record price is achieved.

Exactly Barry...is there any other reason to shill a 1978 Topps baseball set?

[calvindog]

Greg, shill bidding is provable without bidding records if the circumstantial evidence is there; proving it is also helped with co-conspirator or other witness testimony. As for the altered cards in our hobby, the first thing that I suppose has to happen is that the people who are doing it need to be outed as do the sellers of altered material. Some people have been willing to do it, others won't

Finally, if a top-all bid is placed, the fact that the bidder is willing to pay that amount does not in any way mitigate the fraud committed by a shill bidder who places a bid below that ceiling, nor does the top-all bid equate to what the card is properly valued. Only when there are legitimate bids placed in an auction can such a true figure be reached. Of course, if a collector makes an arms-length offer for such a card at that price then it's a different story, but we're not talking about that here.

[barrysloate]

Shill bidding is unquestionably bad, but if I were asked the one thing I am most concerned with, that would have the most deleterious effect on the hobby, it would be altered cards that have made their way into holders. I would view that as close to epidemic, and would put shill bidding a distant second with regard to what collectors should be worried about. I think the grading industry needs a complete overhaul. I don't like it.

And I'm not talking about the VG card that sells for $100. I'm talking about the cards that make it into the set registry collections. Oh Lordie....

[botn]

Jeff,

Think it is much easier to prove a graded card is trimmed or recolored, for example, and trace it back to the submitter than to prove shill bidding, even with a co-conspirator's testimony.

With the quantity of cards which have been graded that should not have been graded, I think we are talking about an enormous amount of money. I know of two cards which combined sold for over 3 million dollars that are not worth a small fraction of that. How many 1977 Topps set would have to be shilled to get to 3 million dollars?

[barrysloate]

I too know of cards easily worth six figures that are holdered by one of the "respected" grading services, and they are bogus. They have had major restoration. And I know the owner is devastated. This was something he put away for retirement and now that money is no longer there. He was a victim of a major fraud. It's a really bad situation, and when it becomes public this industry will be in for a very rude awakening.

[botn]

Barry,

The public has had many rude awakenings and just go right back to sleep.

[calvindog]

Shill bidding is actually incredibly easy to prove if you have subpoena power and the target does not destroy every single bidding record. Bidders that do not exist or bidders who had no idea they were placing a bid are about as strong proof as you need to prove the fraud.

As for shill bidding v. alteration, we can talk about what is worse all day long but is there a prohibition against outing and fixing both? I don't have a problem speaking my mind about this stuff and naming names; you guys should as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What difference would naming names make? These guys don't sell directly, they consign, and the auction houses protect them.

[botn]

Jeff,

So shill bidding is not so easy to prove when bidder records have been destroyed. That was my point. Testimony alone does not convict.

I was not saying that there had to be a choice but pointing out it is easier to prove a card has been trimmed not that it is any less important to clean up shill bidding.

Most of us do not have subpoena power.

[smtjoy]

Interesting thread.

IMO shilling is happening a lot more than alterations, I have alone been shilled in over 10 ebay auctions in the last couple years that I know of, it was easier to tell when bidding records were not private on ebay but you can still tell today if the seller does not cover all their tracks. I was amazed at how often it happened. I can only imagine adding in all the auction houses how high that number would be. I also think the pressure of getting top prices for the consignor would be enough reason for auction houses to do it because it can only lead to more consignments down the road plus more cash for them.

That said I think alterations are a much more serious issue to the hobby. Take a guy like Scott Succor who was submitting thousands of trimmed cards to PSA, getting 2/3 of his subs turned down for that but still getting 1/3 past the graders. For one I cant believe PSA didnt do something about that as they had to know what was going on and thats just one guy. He was only doing micro trimming, what about the real experts in alterations of cards, now these scare me. The people who can take a T206 cobb 4-5 and turn it into a 7-8, now thats scary and is a reason I much prefer the lower graded cards with wear. Not really sure what can be done here because if these cards are getting past the graders, its trouble.

While people get upset and lose money on shilling, they only do so because they were willing to spend the money in the first place. I dont think most of them will be leaving the hobby but hopefully they get smarter. To me the alterations have the damage that can get people to leave the hobby, if your prized card in your collection that happens to be graded turns out to be altered, ouch. You lose money and you are left with something you do not even want.

[vintagechris]

Jeff,

With the auction house I work for I've never witnessed any shilling, alterations or knowing misrepresentation of any item. We take pride in what we do. We are hopeful that hobbyists will take stock in us and have confidence that they are taking part in an honest auction. Those who know me personally know I wouldn't take part or stay silent on any questionable activities.


And this is exactly why Huggins and Scott is at the top of may favorites. I have never heard anything bad about them and honestly, I have never had one bad feeling that something might be wrong. I can't say that about most Auction Houses.

[calvindog]

What difference would naming names make? These guys don't sell directly, they consign, and the auction houses protect them.

Shining a light on the people that do this sort of stuff can only be a good thing. And I suspect that anyone who knows who the card doctors are also knows which auction houses are protecting them. Shine a light and watch the cockroaches run.

[botn]

Jeff,

You need evidence and once the card makes it into the holder do you really expect the grading companies to recant their assertion that the card is anything but what the flip states? For instance one of the top grading companies asked it's supporters to send in their cards for half grade point increases and offered a written guarantee the card would either get the half grade bump or be returned as it was submitted. But that top grading company is far from the only major grading company with fleas.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff, it's just not worth it, they would get lawyers to represent them (if they don't have them already) and accuse me of defamation, and because it all goes on behind closed doors and because third party grading gives it a veneer of legitimatcy, I am not confident that I could prove it through admissible evidence even though I know it.

[onlychild]

I'm not an expert on altered cards but would appreciate learning more as to how the doctors work on alterations and, just as importantly, work with the auction house heads.

Jeff, that is a lose/lose scenario. As you know, I am a card doctor and regardless of what anyone thinks, to the best of my knowledge not one of my altered cards are in the hobby. If you try and explain in a public forum or anywhere on the net for that matter, how cards are doctored, you are just giving lessons or more ideas to the criminal aspect. Only so much can be explained, but then you get ripped for not going into enough detail. I think the best is to show what can be done and/or what to look for. One on one, would be the best way to learn and more details can be given.

I enjoy getting auction catalogs, just to see what cards IMO have been potentially altered. Of course it's impossible to tell without the card in hand (even then it can be tough) but if you have altered enough cards, you can get a pretty good idea. Just my opinion but I think it's a plague and far more prevalent than shilling. Perhaps an auction company can become more trusted if they had an internal expert checking for possible alterations...then rejecting them if discovered or suspected.

I've warned a few auction companies about cards that have or may have been altered...Mastro more than once. They either don't care or have just banned me. REA is definitely the best and most concerned...that's just not lip service by Lifson, he genuinely cares.

If I'm not mistaken haven't you been banned from Mastro/Legendary as well? We should form a club.

I don't think it happens too often that collectors buy cards from auction houses and find out they are doctored. Besides do they really want to know and face a potential large loss? It only becomes a factor or devastating when the card is outed as a fake, restored, doctored.

Then you have those who think it's perfectly alright to send a card and pay a "restorer" to remove ink spots, residue, tape etc. These are some of the same collectors that are or have been the most vocal when it comes to card alterations. It's perfectly fine if their card can get a bump or two though as long as someone else is doing it and they are paying for the service.

As Greg so perfectly stated, "The public has had many rude awakenings and just go right back to sleep." I just hope we don't wake up and discover the the root of the problem is not with the auction companies.

Okay, I've rambled enough (LOL).

Kevin

[calvindog]

Kevin, why not out the cards that you see in an auction catalog that you believe might be altered? What's the downside to that?

And I'm not surprised that Mastro would ignore your communications about altered cards; after all, they have no problem presenting altered items without full disclosure (until caught).

[onlychild]

Hummm...would be tough to out a card "I think" might be altered. Keeping in mind I have more doubts than most by the nature of my specialty. Can see where collectors might beat me with their slabs or at least give me a tasty card paper cut. Would be totally different if it could be proved though...then it would not be a problem.

Yep, even when faced with the truth Mastro just shrugged and let the auction ride...then banned me. Since it was an Americana piece, I did out it on another collectible forum. A bunch of their cards have always been questionable, as we all know.

[Fred]

What a thread... it goes from buying from Legendary to other auction houses to card doctoring, shill bidding, etc.

It makes me want to buy material graded 1 - 3 so there wouldn't be much worry about the card being doctored. Oh yeah, I buy that crap already, but not for that reason. :p

Maybe I'm a bit naive but I really do believe there are honest auction houses and honest individuals that hold auctions. Speaking of which... Hey Barry, when's your next auction?

[Rich Klein]

When Mr. Crandall used to post; he swore that cards in grades 1-3 were more played with (altered) than cards in 7 or higher. So don't be so sure you're safe with 1-3 :)

Rich

[Fred]

Is nothing sacred? I can't even buy a crappy "1" card and not be concerned :eek:

Crappy condition cards have character! :p

[tbob]

When Mr. Crandall used to post; he swore that cards in grades 1-3 were more played with (altered) than cards in 7 or higher. So don't be so sure you're safe with 1-3 :)

Rich

Rich- Do you think that might have been because Crandall's cards were 7s or higher and he didn't buy cards 1-3?
You'll never convince me of what he swore to because the money for 7's, 8's and 9's is exponentially so much higher and makes trimming lucrative for these cards. ;)

[onlychild]

What a thread... it goes from buying from Legendary to other auction houses to card doctoring, shill bidding, etc.

It's all relevant.

[camlov2]

Greg/Mike: I didn't mean to use ebay as a sole example for resale. Poor resale prices in consecutive auctions for the same cards is evident as well, the only difference being lack of fraud in the latter auctions.


A lower price in a second auction doesn't mean that some type of fraud occured in the first. It is of course possible but not a given.

I would guess that many times two people bid against each other driving a price much higher then expected. Every so often the winner choses to resell quickly due to regret, need of money.....

With one of the two main bidders now out of the picture the same item is likely to sell for much less.

[Rich Klein]

Didn't you see my smiley face after my comment :o

But on certain cards; restoring them to 1-3 is actually an easier gig; for if you're a grading company and the card is like $1K and in bad condition; do you automatically question said card like you would a higher grade example.

And, in the 1980's, we had really good 1953 Topps Mantle fakes running around North Jersey, and the funny thing was those cards would be vg/ex and not better (I think there were some other cards as well). But the reason the fakes worked so well WAS that they were in vg/ex condition and if you were a store owner, would you think that such a card was faked?

Regards
Rich

[Exhibitman]

Good points, Kevin and Jeff.

Jeff, no surprise on the records destruction front. It is one of the gaping holes in the legal system, IMO. I'm sure you know that corporate counsel in fact create and implement record destruction policies for their companies. If done as part of a standard practice with no claims pending against them it is treated by the courts as acceptable conduct. The fact that it plays right into the hands of the crooks out there is brushed under the rug.

I did want to respond to one point about altered cards and third party graders (TPG). I can confirm one instance of TPG repurchases of bad cards: SGC bought back a bad ex-mt graded T206 Waddell portrait I owned. I had questions about the card once I got it and took it with me to the National, where I got Dave to take a look at it. He agreed it was erroneously encapsulated and immediately offered to buy it back. I understand PSA is a bitch to get any admission of error from--fortunately I've never had to go down that path personally--but I cannot even get them to fix errors in their boxing card registry checklists, and I wrote the catalog...

[calvindog]

A lower price in a second auction doesn't mean that some type of fraud occured in the first. It is of course possible but not a given.

I would guess that many times two people bid against each other driving a price much higher then expected. Every so often the winner choses to resell quickly due to regret, need of money.....

With one of the two main bidders now out of the picture the same item is likely to sell for much less.

Theoretical possibilities can explain away most fraud; however, statistically when you need a 1 in 10 thing to occur 400 times in a row it becomes an impossibility. Welcome to the world of Mastro.

[onlychild]

But on certain cards; restoring them to 1-3 is actually an easier gig; for if you're a grading company and the card is like $1K and in bad condition; do you automatically question said card like you would a higher grade example.

Humm....Getting a 1-3 to a 4-5 is usually very easy, since the lower grade cards have more problems to work with and edges/corners are usually not a primary concern. Altering a card to the 7/8 range is much more difficult. It's tedious micro-type work, usually on the corners and edges, that has little room for error.

That being said IMHO there are more high grade altered cards in the auction houses because that's where the high grade cards are. I think the altered low to mid grades can be sold more efficiently on eBay. Of course, I'm referring only to graded cards. Raw cards are the wild west.

I would hope that grading companies question all cards equally and give a little extra attention to the top tier cards. I'm not really sure if that happens though.

[JamesGallo]

I will respond to this in sections.

I feel there are a handful of good auction houses out there that include but are not limited to
REA
B&L
Sloate
Old Judge
Huggins and Scott
Goodwin

I don't think I have heard anything bad about any of the above and I am sure there are a few others I can't think of right now.

That being said I will NOT bid in any Legendary auction and they have a nice group of cards for a set I am working on, but they won't get my money.

There are certain things that I being in the collectible selling business for 15+ years will never bend on and ethics are #1. If I sell something and it is not right I will make it right in whatever way is needed. Mastro/Ledgendary has made too many "mistakes". I wasn't active then nor did I bid in or consign, so I was not hurt directly, and yet still they will never get my money no matter what.

As a side note I don't know if there is anything one of a kind that I have to own, but I have passed on such items in my other collecting fields based on this same principle so if there was a card that fell into this category I have no doubt I would pass on it.

As for the shilling/card altering/restoration arguments, I am not sure which is worse, and I think it would depend on the issue at hand.

If you trim a $5 card to make it a $500, restore a card or otherwise work on it they all would impact the value. To me making something worthless into something of high value would be high on my list of worst offenses. Perhaps re-backing a card or doing some other type of alteration. The only time I have dealt with this was on a lot of high end 60's rookies cards that were trimmed in the 1990's. It is likely that they were VG or EX cards trimmed to NM. The cards still had value but there was a significant loss on funds.

I also wonder if the number of bad cards in holders is directly related to when they were graded. I know I will never buy an older PSA holder as I do feel they are better about catching alternations now then they were 10 years ago.

Shilling is something we as a bidder can't know about unless it is made public. If you are educated about something you are buying hopefully that will help you weed out potential problem cards. I looked at a card in a major auction and had doubts about one of the edges, I choose not to bid as a result and am much happier for not having to deal with potential problems. Maybe the card was ok, but I wasn't willing to take the chance and I wasn't confident enough to make a statement about the card to the auction house.

The system has a lot of problems but most areas of business do, and policing them is tough at best. I do find it insulting that Coaches Corner is still around. The FBI continues to make a big deal about fraud in this hobby yet they are still allowed to operate. To me that is a pick and choose, we are going to go after Mastro because more money is involved but CC is still allowed to operate. It's total BS and as with any crime IMO it comes down to money. If you defraud someone out of $10,000 it is not treated the same as if you got screwed out of $500,000. That isn't right but I don't ever see that changing.

I think the best thing we can hope for as far as auction house honesty is that a shake up occurs and that good people continue to deal with good houses, hopefully over time the good and stronger houses will survive and the Mastro's will fade away.

One last note is that I will give an auction house a chance to make up for their errors and mistakes, but much like life, if there are several issues or if the same issues continue, then I will no longer deal with them. At this point I have about 2-4 places I will not buy anything from and another couple that I look at with caution. Beyond that I feel that I am participating in an honest auction and until proven or even suggested otherwise I have no reason to worry.

James G

[barrysloate]

The Legendary Auction is an hour old and the Wagner is already past 100K. Don't understand that kind of bidding strategy.

[e107collector]

Does anyone happen to know what the T-206 Wagner ended in the Legendary auction?

Thanks,
Tony

[Gary Weatherhead]

In round numbers $220 K.

Best
Gary

[E93]

Good points, Kevin and Jeff.

I understand PSA is a bitch to get any admission of error from--fortunately I've never had to go down that path personally...

The one time I had a problem, it was solved very quickly. I noticed a slight problem on the back of a $7000 high grade CJ card that, in my view, was the result of alteration. I e-mailed Joe Orlando about it and sent scans. He asked me to send the card in for re-evaluation. On their analysis, they agreed with my assessment. Within 24 hours of receiving the card and upon our discussion about how to rectify the situation, he sent me a check for $7000. I could not have asked for better customer service and problem solving.

JimB

[E93]

Kevin, why not out the cards that you see in an auction catalog that you believe might be altered? What's the downside to that?



What a completely reckless idea! Kevin makes mistakes. I know this personally. How would you feel if you consigned a 10k card that you knew to be good and somebody came on a public forum claiming it was altered on the basis of a scan? The downside is completely screwing somebody in a situation that may have no wrongdoing or altered card.

In some obvious cases one can tell from a scan, but that is not usually the case with slabbed cards in major auctions.
JimB