Cobb/Edwards and the T206 Honus Wagner

[HOFAUTOS]

I read the book "The Card" a few years ago when it was first published. I know it had been widely discussed here, way before I joined. I believe the card is a reprint, as well as 99% of people.

My question is, if you believed something was 100% original, something that could bring you 100's of thousands of dollars, wouldn't you at least make an effort to get it graded by a top tier grading compant? I know they said they didn't trust sending it in and all that, and that they think people have something against them race wise, but why not connect with an established dealer who can send it in for them, so all the biases is gone?

Im not all caught up with the story of their card, so if something has been written about the status, please update me :D

[glynparson]

I have no reason to doubt Brian Wentz and his claims in the book. As everyone that was at the national dinner knows, I feel this cast a shadow over the whole book. O'keefe knows they are full of it and just put the salacious story in there to "sell Books" yes that is what he told me after his speech when we talked. So I think he is a blow hard. He wants to hold everyone in this business to the absolute highest standards but when it comes to his ethics all are apparently ok to sell a book. So basically if anyone wants to read this book let me know I'll send you my copy, for I don't want O'keefe to get another dime from his book.

PS. I personally believe the story of the "card" as it is in line with what I've heard for years, but the whole Cobb/Edwards crap was just put in to make the whole hobby look bad. He essentially calls the grading companies racist. Has he been to SGC almost half the employees are of latin descent. I think that is what really set me off he was basically calling some of my friends racists and I did not appreciate it.

[calvindog]

I have to agree with Glyn here. Much of Mike O'Keeffe's adult life has been spent terrorizing the sainted baseball card hobby and industry all due to a bizarre hatred for baseball cards. Recently I found out why: when Mike was six years old and flipping cards, an especially sharp cornered 1976 Topps Kurt Bevacqua card -- yes, the one where he is blowing that huge bubble -- caught him in the left eye and caused major retina damage. Eventually Mike lost sight in the eye and has held a grudge ever since.

How Mike has been able to hide his irrational hatred all these years is really the remarkable thing. But when you write unfavorable things about such decent, wholesome, honest guys like Bill Mastro and Doug Allen, well, that's when the lid really blew off his cover because along with such solid citizens like Bill Goodwin and JP Cohen, these guys form the collective conscience of our great hobby. I only hope Mike shows up at this year's National because I for one plan on giving him a piece of my mind.

[Leon]

I am somewhere in the middle on the Okeefe issue(s). I like Mike personally, and have come to like most of his reporting, but my only qualm was not showing ANY of the good side of the hobby in "The Card". I have stated that before so it's no secret. Also, Mike did quote me verbatim in the Daily News, so I am appreciative of that. And of course I was appreciative of him speaking at our Dinner last year also. My guess is that we will see some more juicy stories come out this year. I would say that if you are an auctioneer and are doing anything wrong you might be on notice...and that includes showing stuff sold but it not really selling. If you are an auctioneer and have done that, then be on the lookout. If you have done nothing wrong then all is good. regards

edited to add that I don't mind a little sensationalism in journalism. It's their job to sell books...and a $20 card sale isn't that exciting...but a $100k+ (attempted sale) of a fake card, by an otherwise legit auctioneer and 2 idiots, is.

[barrysloate]

Leon- when you write, be it a book or an article, you need a point of view, or a thesis. O'Keeffe's reason for writing "The Card" was to expose fraud in the baseball card industry. As an investigative reporter that is his job. I am sure he recognizes there are fun aspects to collecting baseball cards, but that had nothing to do with his book.

[Leon]

Leon- when you write, be it a book or an article, you need a point of view, or a thesis. O'Keeffe's reason for writing "The Card" was to expose fraud in the baseball card industry. As an investigative reporter that is his job. I am sure he recognizes there are fun aspects to collecting baseball cards, but that had nothing to do with his book.

Barry- I agree. And as someone who read the book, and is in the hobby quite a bit, I was only critiquing it. Overall, it was ok and was interesting........

[barrysloate]

There is no question that fraud and scandal make for good entertainment. O'Keeffe understands this, and his paper, The Daily News, lives by that credo.

There are any number of reasons one might critique "The Card", but the fact that the author left out the fun parts of the hobby is inconsequential.

[calvindog]

Barry, you should only know what Woodward and Bernstein left out of their Watergate reporting -- all the warm and fuzzies about Nixon and G. Gordon Liddy. Those investigative reporters can sure be cold bastards.

[barrysloate]

Good investigative reporting can be brutal, but that's the way the game is played.

[Leon]

I guess only if you want to a be a "fair" reporter, would you want to report everything. There is no room for that kind of nonsense when trying to make money, I understand that (I guess).

[teetwoohsix]

I've read the book a couple of times-after the first time I read it,I HAD to see what it looked like.
Then,one day on Net54,there was a link in a thread (can't remember the title of the thread),and it took me to a site where these two found an auction house who was going to TRY to auction off the fake.You should have read the auction houses' write up on it!!!
But then,there it was!!!A photo of the front and back!!!
No doubt about it,was fake as can be-they know this,thats why they won't send it in to be graded.
I wish I could remember the thread...........

[barrysloate]

The board's best guess was that a Wagner reprint was glued onto a real T206 common. The two owners sent the card to be chemically analyzed, and a small piece of the back was removed and tested. It was deemed to be genuine antique paper, and consistent with paper from the early part of the 20th century. Obviously, a modern reprint wouldn't pass that test.

Based on that conclusion, the owners believed their card was genuine.

[DanP]

Help me out here...

Is someone saying that the PSA 8 Wagner is a fake? I thought it was believed it was cut from a sheet??? Or are we talking about another Wagner?

Dan

[teetwoohsix]

No,the "Wagner" the thread is about is regarding two individuals Cobb & Edwards who claim to have a real Wagner,but won't submit it for grading-because it is fake.
There is a section of the book that is about them and their card.
Sincerely,Clayton

[glynparson]

If you think the friends I was referring to are any of the boneheads you mentioned. You are wrong I was actually referring to your client you know Dave, as well as Joe Orlando both I consider friends. But O'Keefe infers in his book that they wont grade the Cobb/Edwards Wagner due to an old boys club atmosphere that goes on in the hobby. I don't like any of the peolpe you named, well I actually don't dislike Goodwin but the rest of those jokers can go away as far as i'm concerned. Also Leon can vouch for this as I discussed it with him at the dinner. I feel putting the Cobb Edwards junk in the book took the focus off the true story (in my opinion) and the reason for the book. Heck when i would put an irrelevant topic to my thesis in a paper the teacher always put a big x over thhe whole paragraph. I feel that's what should have been done with the Cobb/Edwards chapter to not dilute going after the true bad guys (in my opinion).

[Jewish-collector]

Maybe Leon can get Cobb & Edwards to come to this years Net54 dinner. :D

[drc]

My impression is the book was written by people who didn't know how to tell if a T206 Wager is real or reprint.

[calvindog]

O'Keeffee apparently flunked the 30 second course "How to Tell if Your Wagner is Real or a Reprint." In my opinion he flunked it on purpose -- because he just wants to give the hobby a bad name.

Of course, he's the one who gives the hobby a bad name, not all the frauds that make a living from it.

[HOFAUTOS]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

[drc]

My opinion is I thought much of the book was good and offered interesting info and insight, but a few parts I didn't like. I won't go into details, but there were parts that, to be polite, rubbed me the wrong way. But I'm not a book critic and many people have said they enjoyed it, so I'm not here to arbitrate literary taste. Though know that certain parts will be read differently by those who know how to authenticate the card versus those who don't. A mystery novel has no mystery to those who know who done it by the end of page one, and, believe it or not, there are people who can tell if a questioned T206 Wagner is real or fake. I happen to be one of them, so found some of the melodrama to be off base and beside the point.

[Brian-Chidester]

"The Card" was a great book, and one of the only to hold the collecting industry accountable. In no way does he support Cobb/Edwards, only presents the facts as they were. In the end, they look pretty stupid in the book. But this comment above...

"But when you write unfavorable things about such decent, wholesome, honest guys like Bill Mastro"

... well, now... that just takes the cake!

Be careful of boosterism. Follow the money. Journalism 101.

[Jim VB]

But this comment above...

"But when you write unfavorable things about such decent, wholesome, honest guys like Bill Mastro"

... well, now... that just takes the cake!





Psst! Brian! (It was sarcasm.)

[Exhibitman]

Jeff, you really had me going with the first paragraph; nice satirical writing!

I did not get the impression from the book that O'Keefe was suggesting that racism or other unfair bias is really at the core of the Cobb/Edwards mess--he was simply reporting their excuses and the responses people had to them. I do think what he was suggesting is that anyone who refuses to accept third party grading ("TPG") as the ultimate arbiter of card quality and authenticity falls outside the orthodoxy of the card collecting world and is often treated as a pariah in the hobby sight unseen when they try to market a rare card. TPG is not the panacea for all that ails the card world. The book itself exposes some of the stinky in the po' that often accompanies big money and slabbing. It isn't particularly ground-shaking stuff--VCBC was on the TPG thing over a decade ago.

IMO O'Keefe is much like Jose Canseco: painfully right about a lot of things that many powerful players in the hobby would prefer not to have the collecting base read about.

[barrysloate]

It was Cobb or Edwards who accused this board of racism a few years back when we had that long thread about their card. And even that antique dealer who was helping them sell it (I forget his name) suggested the same thing on that HBO special when he said there wouldn't have been this controversy if the owners were white. There's no better way to ignore the facts than to play the race card.

[Brian-Chidester]

Having not ever seen their card myself, only having read about it, is it not possible that these two men experienced racism during their quest to authenticate and sell that card? Has it never crossed anyone's mind that they dress stereotypically urban in nearly every pictured posted of them in articles, books and online media? And that perhaps that has had an effect (however unconscious it might be) on how their card was viewed? Is that so far out of the realm of possibility?

Maybe it is completely false that they were in any way treated differently because of race. However, their very existence might defy some sort of built-in aristocracy.

I'm only being a devil's advocate here, not pointing specific fingers, as I know of no one to point at.

[Brian-Chidester]

**IMO O'Keefe is much like Jose Canseco: painfully right about a lot of things that many powerful players in the hobby would prefer not to have the collecting base read about.**

Well, O'Keefe is a journalist, whereas Canseco was a player. If O'Keefe was a card dealer or grader, then they would accurately compare.

I think Canseco emerged as a much more anti-Capra/Rockwellian character, defying that all-American adage: "Don't snitch."

Doesn't mean he wasn't right. I've come to dislike the whole steroids lot so much that I admire Canseco for doing what perhaps no one else was willing to do.

[E93]

Having not ever seen their card myself, only having read about it, is it not possible that these two men experienced racism during their quest to authenticate and sell that card? Has it never crossed anyone's mind that they dress stereotypically urban in nearly every pictured posted of them in articles, books and online media? And that perhaps that has had an effect (however unconscious it might be) on how their card was viewed? Is that so far out of the realm of possibility?

Maybe it is completely false that they were in any way treated differently because of race. However, their very existence might defy some sort of built-in aristocracy.

I'm only being a devil's advocate here, not pointing specific fingers, as I know of no one to point at.

Brian,
I don't doubt they have experienced subtle and not-so-subtle forms of racism in this. But the card is an obvious fake. Hearing that from a bunch of racists is certainly a lot less pleasant than hearing that from others, but it does not change the fact that 99% of T206 collectors (racist or not) can tell from a two second glance at the card that it is obviously fake. And while there may have been a couple of inappropriate comments in the discussion of this card on the board, my recollection is that the focus was on the card. The guys did not like what they heard about the card and the ball rolled from there.
JimB

[barrysloate]

Brian- I have no idea how they were treated, but the card is still fake. Their position with regard to this board was, who were we to pass judgment on the authenticity of their card? We tried to explain to them that many of the most advanced and knowledgeable people in the card collecting hobby congregate here, and if there was anybody who had the skill to determine whether or not it was real it was this group. But that wasn't good enough for them. Most of the people involved in the discussion got pretty agitated, myself included.

[Brian-Chidester]

Yeah, I read the entire thread a while back. Is there a place where a scan of their card can be viewed?

I believe I have every official Wagner T206 reprint, of which, a lot of the "scuffed-up" fakes come from. I might be able to identify which reprint their card comes from. Though in recent years, a lot of very good Wagner fakes have emerged that look much closer to the real thing than any previous "official" reprints did.

[glynparson]

http://www.bobconnelly.com/honuswagnert206.html

[Jim VB]

Having not ever seen their card myself, only having read about it, is it not possible that these two men experienced racism during their quest to authenticate and sell that card?



The problem was that they wanted to be treated differently, and they weren't. They insisted on being in the grading room when the card was graded. They claimed that they would not be able to keep a grading company from switching out their "original" for a fake! Needless to say, no grading company would accommodate their wishes.

They have gotten exactly what they deserve and I don't care what color they are.

[Brian-Chidester]

Well, it's certainly not based on any "official" reprint, that's for sure. One thing you come to notice about many of the reprints is that they rely on a modern 4-color interlaced print technique, which unfortunately flattens out may of the features of the front portraits or action poses.

As far as the color of the actual Wagner portrait, this is much richer than the average reprint. No big revelation there, but that puts to bed whether this was a doctored up card that was readily reproduced. It's better than the "cheap Galasso reprint" that Mr. Mint passed it off as.

I know that many find the lack of a black line border around the portrait to be most troubling, besides the fact that it looks simply too crummy on both surfaces to have that nice of edges. The card certainly begs a lot of questions, but it does look better than I thought it was going to.

The font looks pretty black, though some T206s have a much darker brown text, which almost appears black.

[Leon]

Personally I think they were grasping for anything they could and the race card was low hanging fruit. They were idiots. Period. Black, white, green, brown, yellow.....color is blind on this issue, imo.

That card could have been owned by a Martian and it would still be fake (at least the front half of it). Even Joe O made a short video explaining why it wasn't good. They wouldn't listen because they were idiots. I don't think this situation had anything at all to do with race...though there is not much doubt that those two, or any person of color, might have previously experienced racism. That is just my take on it and others might think differently. regards

[Brian-Chidester]

Is that video posted somewhere?

[barrysloate]

I've always wondered if they knew all along it was no good, but simply loved all the publicity they were getting from it. They were on TV several times, and became minor celebrities for about 15 minutes. Perhaps in the end that was what it was all about. Could they really have believed that a grading service would switch cards on them? That doesn't even make sense. Maybe the whole thing was a put on...or they were really stupid. One or the other.

[mark evans]

They struck me more as con-men than anything else. Agree with Leon that both have likely experienced racism in the past but that has nothing to do with the bogus nature of their card. Mark

[Brian-Chidester]

Leon/Barry,

With such incendiary talk, it's not hard to see why they might have felt they were being treated in a racist manner. Certainly their intelligence is being called into question in a vehement manner, and they might be left to wonder where the anger stems from.

I understand that you guys are simply heated because you see their card as an obvious fake and wish these two would simply drop it.

That being said, didn't they pay $1,800 for it? Not a ton of money for a Wagner card, but certainly a lot more than the $2 reprints that I've bought. Perhaps they unconcsiously feel like they couldn't have been swindled? Or more likely, they think they have the real thing. The $1,800 they paid for the card makes me think they were out for more than a grand hoax and 15 minutes of fame.

But they sure are the whipping boys, when far more egregious players have been involved in fraudulent play with regards to Wagner and other high profile memorabilia, and those crooks have been respected members of the card memorabilia community for decades.

Also, it's beyond proveable that certain persons or entities have recieved special treatment from the graders, and the man who graded the PSA 8 Wagner came out in O'Keefe's book saying that he knew it was trimmed.

Yes, it is highly unlikely that anyone would switch out the Cobb/Edwards card, were it to be graded. That is paranoia that reminds me of some of my delusional pothead buddies. But to act like the grading companies are to be trusted is to defy logic. The cards look beautiful in their graded holders, but beyond that, the whole system has ruined vintage collecting as much as these low-numbered, high value inserts have ruined newer cards. It's become the province of the "investor." Yes, you can still buy raw cards, but it's almost impossible to get the really great stuff without having to buy from the graded market, and its grotesque mark-ups.

All of which points back to O'Keefe's excellent book, which called a spade a spade, the most definitive section being when the Baseball Hall of Fame comments on the memorabilia market. That section hit the nail on the head.

[Leon]

Brian- It seems this is difficult for you to wrap your arms around. Forget about color for a minute. The two guys are idiots. There are tons of people of all colors that are idiots. Those 2 just happen to be African-American. best regards

[barrysloate]

Brian- I am not convinced they ever paid $1800 for that thing. Mr. Edwards was a pack rat/junk collector. He claimed he bought it on a whim. He looks like the kind of guy who might pay $5 for a box lot and hope there is something good inside. But laying out $1800 when he said he really had no idea what he was buying? I don't think so.

[calvindog]

Barry, I think you're using racist code words. You and O'Keeffe, both racists. Who would have thunk it.

[E93]

My guess is they knew it was fake all along and they were scammers trying to take advantage of any angle they could think up. If I remember right, they claimed not to be collectors or to know anything about the card when they originally purchased it at a yard sale, but nonetheless paid $1800 for it in 1983 (when they were probably teenagers judging from the photos). And they have the gall to cast aspersions at the people on this board who told them it was a fake and called them on their bullshit.
JimB

[Brian-Chidester]

I'm only going on what they themselves claim, with regards to the $1800.

That being said, I don't think their card is as idiotic as many fakes that I've seen over the years, and I've seen quite a few. I'm not saying I don't see some obvious red flags here, but I think calling them "stupid" and "idiots" is a bit over the top, and the thread that came about when they were trying to sell the card a few years back was so bitter and condescending so as to make my stomach turn.

Has anyone ever seen their card up close? On the surface, its colors look rich, much like a real T206, which reprints from modern printing presses rarely have. However, the black font and the lack of a black border around the portrait are troublesome. Moreover, why is the card so trashed on its surface, but relatively clean on its borders?

Speaking civily, what do you see as its obvious indicators of being a fake? Remembering that in 1984, a card of this shape would have been worth a few thousand bucks, at best, and that pulling off something that even approached making a fake look real was not something I'd heard a lot about then. I'm sure it was there, and people were re-backing T206s and creating all sorts of "error" variations on the actual cards themselves by erasing letters and whatnot. But every effort I have seen from the 1970s and '80s at creating a T206 from scratch has turned out bad. This one looks better than that... I'm just saying.

[barrysloate]

I know Jeff. They were two choir boys and how dare anyone question their integrity.

[barrysloate]

Brian- A blind man in a snowstorm could see it was fake. I've been in the hobby a long time, I've owned a Wagner and seen probably a dozen real ones. That one was fake with a capital "F."

Forget about the signs that suggest it might be fake. I didn't see one thing that even suggests it might be real.

And I meant no offense to the sightless. it was just an expression.:)

[Brian-Chidester]

Barry, I think you're using racist code words. You and O'Keeffe, both racists. Who would have thunk it.

I hope this sarcasm was not pointed in my direction. I'm only stating that the harshness of calling someone stupid and an idiot and all other sort of incendiary names could easily lead someone to wonder why such anger would be directed at them.

I never said Barry Sloate was a racist. To the contrary, I have never met the man, and all of his posts that i have read have been both informatve and gracious.

Again, if everyone here feels comfortable calling these two men every name under the sun, what does it hurt for me to ask questions of basic logic, avoiding ad hominum?

[Brian-Chidester]

Brian- A blind man in a snowstorm could see it was fake. I've been in the hobby a long time, I've owned a Wagner and seen probably a dozen real ones. That one was fake with a capital "F."

Forget about the signs that suggest it might be fake. I didn't see one thing that even suggests it might be real.

And I meant no offense to the sightless. it was just an expression.:)

Barry, all due respect, I'm sure you have owned and handled many more cards of rarity and value than I have. For I am but a lowly kid from the suburbs of Philadelphia, who grew up in a row home and ridiculously got into T206 at a card show in Valley Forge in 1985 (at the ripe age of eight) when my father gave me $20 for cleaning the house up, and I bought five beater cards that day. Since that time, I've bought many T206s, and even more reprints. A kid of my means had to find some way to become more knowledgeable about the set that I loved.

As the years have gone by, disposable income has afforded me more chances to buy better cards, to be sure, so you must forgive my devilish nature, as I recieved my degree in philosophy and am a working journalist and author who can't help but stir the pot from time to time.

And while I haven't owned a T206 Wagner myself, one thing I do know is that I've seen more variations of each single T206 card than I care to count. These things rarely look the same from card to card, and that goes for the 38-40 Wagner specimens... all manner of differences pop up.

As for myself, I DO think there are some indicators that the Cobb/Edwards card might be taken more seriously, and the one is the color and printing. Yes, perhaps lithography of the early 20th century nature can be reproduced in this day and age. I have no doubt of that. However, in the mid-'80s, was there an infusion of fakes that replicated such printing qualities from 70 years prior? I'm going on the knowledge that I have of reprints, and I have never seen such a fake from the '70s or '80s.

They have done some authenticating too. I know many have passed their authenticators off as drunks or crooks, and have exonerated PSA, despite the fact that the man who graded the Gretzky Wagner admitted that he knew it was trimmed. But in this case, I'd like have just a wee bit more concise evidence than, "I know it's fake, because I know."

Not good enough for me.

[benchod]

Brian or should we call you Mr. Cobb or Mr. Edwards?

[calvindog]

I hope this sarcasm was not pointed in my direction.

I hate to have crushed your dreams but, alas, it was.

[Leon]

Brian or should we call you Mr. Cobb or Mr. Edwards?


I thought the same thing but there is no way in hell they can write that well. It crossed my mind more than once.

[Brian-Chidester]

Everyone's dreams die sometime.

Leon... I'm surprised that you continue to attack the person instead of the argument.

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Jeff and Leon,
I was thinking the same thing.....

Hope you guys are well. Brian


PS Hi Barry, you are too nice....

[Brian-Chidester]

Apologize.

I didn't realize that you guys were above questioning.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Brian.:) I've been spending the day digging my car out of a snowstorm. We had quite a doozy today.

Brian C.- I understand you may not have handled that many T206's, but trust me when I tell you that an experienced eye would not think for a moment that that Wagner was real. Everything is wrong about it.

[Brian-Chidester]

Barry... I've handled many, many real T206s over the last 25 years, just not a real Wagner. I'm asking you and anyone else -- devoid of sarcasm, condescension and bitterness -- to please address the basics of this card. Color, design, printing, dimensions, aging.

Again, I don't really care who attacks me in whatever hauty manner chosen. If it makes some lowly person feel better, so be it.

[barrysloate]

Brian- I certainly wasn't being condescending. The color is off, the clarity isn't quite right, the font is wrong and if memory serves the lettering is the wrong color, the card has funny corners and edges and looks like it was glued to something else, and there are probably a couple of other signs I am forgetting.

[Brian-Chidester]

Barry... for the record, I don't think he card is real, nor does it look real to my eyes. But I am trying to give it that all-American advantage of "innocent until proven guilty."

-So, in this case, does not the color vary from specimen to specimen? There are all manner of color variations for every card in the T206 series.

-For clarity, could not the massive amount of scum on the card attribute in the slightest to its clarity being off?

-Is the font actually not the same letter as other T206s? If so, argument over.

-I agree that the font is the wrong color. But like I said before, some of my real T206s have very dark brown fonts, making them almost look black.

-Funny corner, in what way? Like it was trimmed? Trimmed does not make it fake.

-The glued edges could indicate it was rebacked, but has anyone actually seen the card in person? Or just from a scan on the internet?

[glynparson]

I have no reason to question Brian Wentz's statement in the book. They are trying to rip someone off plain and simple. And if you can't tell that cards fake in less then 10 seconds I question wether you should be buying T206 cards. The card is not even close besides all the things Barry mentioned the print is the wrong color on the front, it has been artifically aged, and the cropping of the photo is off. This thing is NOT EVEN CLOSE. They have been given enough evidence that this thing is fake so if they are still trying to huckster it they are thieves. By the way I have talked to these buffons at one my previous jobs. So yes I can call them idiots from my experiences with them, and it has absolutely zero to do with race.

[glynparson]

The font is wrong size and color and how do you explain that the photo on the card is cropped different. Do you know these gentlemen if so have them sue me for calling there card a FAKE.

[Brian-Chidester]

Glyn... I don't known them, and I don't understand why you and others keep trying to make this personal. It's as if you are above someone asking you a question.

If it is simply that you are sick of talking about this particular card, by all means, walk away from the keyboard. No one is making you write anything.

This is the first time that I have even seen the card. I've only read about it before.

[ctownboy]

Brian C,

If the card were a REAL and ORIGINAL T206 Honus Wagner, the two scam artists would have had it graded and sold by now.

Look, if I were lucky enough to find a REAL T206 Wagner and were lucky enough to buy it for $1,500 dollars, I would CERTAINLY have it graded. I would do so even if I did NOT have the money and had to borrow from somebody.

As far as not trusting people, I would ALSO borrow the money neccessary to fly to wherever the grading company I chose was located and hand deliver it to them and wait while it was graded.

Since these two clowns are NOT card collectors, WHY don't they do the above and sell the card? What are they waiting for? It seems that some of their jobs is to buy "junk" and turn around and sell it. If they could get $150,000 (or more) in a relatively short amount of time (on a $1,500 "investment") then WHY don't they do it ESPECIALLY in a BAD economy?

The answer is becaues they KNOW the card is a fake and they enjoy the publicity they are getting and being a "victim". If they like the publicity they have gotten so far just think what it would be like if they told their story and it ended up with them being rewarded with a huge pay out in the end?

[rman444]

Here is the HBO video. Cobb says that he found the card at an estate sale in 1984 and it was priced at $2500. Cobb only had $1800 in his pocket and made the offer. He did not know who Honus Wagner was at the time he purchased the card.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3577720&section=magazine

[rman444]

-Is the font actually not the same letter as other T206s? If so, argument over.



As the movie shows, the font is not the same as on an authentic Wagner. Does this mean that the argument is over?

[drc]

For the record, this board as well as the PSA board made judgment on the card before the race or sex of the owners was known. It wasn’t until later on that their pictures appeared in a newspaper article and people learned the colors of their skin.

[calvindog]

Another freaking racist. Man, this board....

[barrysloate]

The reason that Cobb and Edwards are disliked by this board is because they are black...oops, that's not it. Start again.

What I meant to say is their demeanor towards members of Net54 was really bad. Instead of coming over here and respecting the accumulated knowledge of all the veteran hobbyists, they stubbornly refused to listen to anything we had to say. They felt they knew more than all of us combined. So they rubbed everybody the wrong way.

[Brian-Chidester]

As the movie shows, the font is not the same as on an authentic Wagner. Does this mean that the argument is over?

Actually, yes. And for the record, I compared it to a scan of an authentic PSA 5, and the dimensions of the portrait are prefectly fine. But the font of the Cobb/Edwards version is the exact same font as that of the 1987 Hygrade Toy Co.'s reprint.

If someone can tell me how to post an image, I have pasted up a real Wager next to the Cobb/Edwards Wagner, next to my own scan of the Hygrade reprint.

[Brian-Chidester]

The reason that Cobb and Edwards are disliked by this board is because they are black...oops, that's not it. Start again.

What I meant to say is their demeanor towards members of Net54 was really bad. Instead of coming over here and respecting the accumulated knowledge of all the veteran hobbyists, they stubbornly refused to listen to anything we had to say. They felt they knew more than all of us combined. So they rubbed everybody the wrong way.

I'm starting to feel like I did the same thing, though by no means was I interested in anything but facts about the dimension, color, font, design and aging of the card. Sorry if feathers were rankled.

[glynparson]

I take this personally as I do shill bidding and card doctors because iIsell sports cards for a living. People like these two give the hobby a bad name and help people like Mr. O'keefe paint the hobby, that I love, in a bad light and that does fire me up. So yes I take it personally because it could have an effect on how i put food on the table and support my wife and daughter and I take that very seriously.

[Brian-Chidester]

Regardless, O'Keefe didn't paint them as anything but what they really were. Should he not investigate a hotly debated specimen of the very card he was writing a book about?

And furthermore, is your hobby above reproach? His book highlighted some major discrepencies in the industry, particularly with regards to high-end memorabilia and grading services, and whether you are a card seller (like yourself), or have invested time, money and energy into collecting (like myself), no one is above these questions.

O'Keefe did the hobby a service, in my opinion.

[calvindog]

I take this personally as I do shill bidding and card doctors because iIsell sports cards for a living. People like these two give the hobby a bad name and help people like Mr. O'keefe paint the hobby, that I love, in a bad light and that does fire me up. So yes I take it personally because it could have an effect on how i put food on the table and support my wife and daughter and I take that very seriously.

Glyn, Mike O'Keeffe didn't need any help in painting the business of this hobby in a bad light. Remember, the hobby is good, the scum that infest the hobby are bad.

[Brian-Chidester]

He didn't paint the whole hobby as bad anyway. Plenty of praise was heaped upon the integrity of Rob Lifson, Michael Gidwitz and others. His general disdain seemed to be aimed at Bill Mastro, cunning and charming though he may be. As far as I could see, O'Keefe's second biggest issue was with the whole industry of grading, and he outlined his take on it with plenty of facts and quotes from all sides.

[glynparson]

Jeff, I was referring to those idiots angering me not o'Keefe except in his legitimizing them. And Brian that is my point GO after the bad guys like Bill Mastro by putting in the junk about those to bozos he took credibilty away from what he was saying about the mastro card which is what the book was supposed to be about. the book was supposed to be the story of the PSa 8 Wagner and how it was made. If it were just an expose on the hobby as a whole you could argue those two goofballs story may belong. But it did not belong in a story about how Bill mastro trimmed a card and made it the most famous and valuable in the world.

[Brian-Chidester]

Glyn,

While I partially agree, I think part of writing a good story is giving background on the nature of Mastro's card, which means, explaining what T206 is, who Honus Wagner was, the history of the PSA 8 specimen, the history of PSA as an organization, the bio of each person who bought the 8, and yes, why not cover a potential scam of the same card? I think it showed further how the grading companies operate and the mania surrounding this card.

Again, I wasn't trying to rankle anyone's feathers today. It looked fake to me at first glance, but having just seen it a few hours ago, I thought I'd play devil's advocate and give it the full go-round.

If anyone wishes to see the reprint that I have posted next to the Cobb/Edwards, I'd be happy to post it, just need to know how to do that.

[glynparson]

There are many legitimate things to go after with the grading companies and many people they made very rich by slabbing altered material for them. why put in a b.s. chapter about two crooks again it cuts into his credibility because these 2 guys have none.

[glynparson]

You have proven my point, he legitimized them in your eyes and confused you on the story. PSA and SGC did not grade the card because it was fake. DSL, Bill Mastro, Bill Goodwin, Gary Moser, Anyone who submits that card gets the exact same results period.

[Brian-Chidester]

No, he didn't confuse me. I wasn't saying the Cobb/Edwards card was graded, only that it presented another forum in which to talk about the grading process. Grading is key to O'Keefe and Thompson's book.

My opinion on grading bears no final outcome in the discussion. I make no bones about it... I enjoyed the hobby much more before grading, and have since the late '90s taken in much less of the hobby than before. But grading is here to stay... it is a part of the hobby now. It is worth reporting on. And hopefully those who part-take in this third-party system get some reward out of it, financial or personal.

[mark evans]

While third-party grading has its deficiencies, it is just what the doctor ordered for the Cobb-Edwards card because it establishes authenticity in the minds of most serious collectors. Thus, I agree with ctownboy. There is simply no reason why the owners don't deliver the card to PSA or SGC, invite Mr. O'Keefe and any other interested media representatives to attend, and wait patiently in the office while the card is graded. The notion that the grading company would switch out the card in the course of this process is laughable.

Also, I enjoyed O'Keefe's book immensely (as well as his remarks at our dinner last summer) but agree with those who believe the Cobb-Edwards story doesn't fit. There have been a boatload of bogus Wagners offered for sale over the years. I don't see why this one deserves any special treatment.

Mark

[Leon]

Posting this for Brian C....

[MW1]

Brian- I am not convinced they ever paid $1800 for that thing. Mr. Edwards was a pack rat/junk collector. He claimed he bought it on a whim. He looks like the kind of guy who might pay $5 for a box lot and hope there is something good inside. But laying out $1800 when he said he really had no idea what he was buying? I don't think so.Barry has hit the nail squarely on its head.

I still remember the two guys (Ray Edwards and John Cobb) from the 1992 Cincinnati show in which they purchased their T206 Wagner. It was from a dealer a few tables down from where I was set up. The dealer had an entire display devoted to reprints and broder cards and he had a fair number of reproduction T206 Wagners. John had purchased one of these cards and put it in a thick, lucite screwdown. He brought the lucite screwdown by my table and asked me what I thought the card was worth. Brian, who was with me, told him, "Nothing, it's a reprint", to which he replied, "Just you wait. It's going to be worth something someday."

I also remember purchasing a good condition (creased and worn) 1965 Topps Joe Namath from the pair of entrepreneurs and spent a short amount of time looking through a box of rough condition 1960s - 70s comic books and low-grade 1960s baseball cards. Incidentally, when they first brought the box of comic books to our table, they told us it was their "million dollar collection". I remember getting a signed receipt from them for the purchase of the Namath. I don't know if I still have it but if I get some time one of these days, I'll look for it and post an image of it if I can find it. This is significant because in Michael O'Keeffe's book, Ray Edwards denies being at this or any other card show.

Some other details: John was a lot thinner back then and Ray had long, straight hair, kind of like Fabio. We reasoned that he must have used a straight iron to get it to look like that, though we never asked him specifically.

One additional thought. Michael O'Keeffe and Teri Thompson do seem to reach a conclusion about the nature of the Cobb/Edwards reprinted T206 Wagner. Here is what they write at the top of page 154 in The Card:

"If Cobb and Edwards were truly a couple of con artists, as so many of the Network54 collectors and dealers said they were, they surely would have ditched their T206 Wagner years ago and moved on to something more profitable."

[teetwoohsix]

Brian-

Do you really think this guy came out of pocket $1800.00 in the mid to late 1980's for a card of a player he knew NOTHING about?Please............the reason people get fired up about this issue is because it is as fake as it gets-if you have been collecting T206 for so long,and have bought many reprints yourself,I do not understand why you keep wanting everyone to point out the obvious to you.

This has nothing to do with race,other than these two scam artists playing the race card.

Maybe you should make them an offer:D

[Brian-Chidester]

Brian-

Do you really think this guy came out of pocket $1800.00 in the mid to late 1980's for a card of a player he knew NOTHING about?Please............the reason people get fired up about this issue is because it is as fake as it gets-if you have been collecting T206 for so long,and have bought many reprints yourself,I do not understand why you keep wanting everyone to point out the obvious to you.

This has nothing to do with race,other than these two scam artists playing the race card.

Maybe you should make them an offer:D

Clayton... unlike some people who have spent years on this internet site, I'm a relative newcomer. But that doesn't mean I'm new to card collecting. I read O'Keefe and Thompson's book, but like I said above, I never saw a color picture of the Cobb/Edwards card until today.

One, from the start I said it looked fake, but that there were parts of my initial viewing that gave pause. Some of those things being the claim that $1,800 was paid for it, another being that it had better pop than many of the reprints. None of which to say I was convinced.

Secondly, I cannot from a computer scan see things like glued edges, as Barry Sloate pointed out. I have no idea of the card's thickness, nor the years of rankling with this issue, as many of you on a message board have. You might not know this, but the center of the world doesn't revolve around a message board. It's a meeting place for hardcores.

Third, it might be beneath you to go blow by blow over a card that you have obviously identified as fake. I never asked you to be a part of this conversation, nor to post anything, but you don' have to insult my intelligence or devotion for simply holding a conversation.

Lastly, I wouldn't buy that card for for twenty bucks... actually, I might for the sheer novelty of it... which is my main point in all of this... I read Bill Heitman's "The Monster," O'Keefe/Thompson's "The Card" and Scot Reader's "Inside T206" because I enjoy the set, in all its dry history and weird real-life drama. And while I don't think that a card has to be professionally graded to be authentic, their card can be vetted in a few hours and easiy proven false.

Again, with regards to grading, it was inevitable. I saw it coming a million miles away. For some people, it's the last word. Still, there are enough cards that are fakes or have been rebacked or altered in the T206 set alone to tell me that grading does not an authentic card make.

[Brian-Chidester]

Barry has hit the nail squarely on its head.

I still remember the two guys (Ray Edwards and John Cobb) from the 1992 Cincinnati show in which they purchased their T206 Wagner. It was from a dealer a few tables down from where I was set up. The dealer had an entire display devoted to reprints and broder cards and he had a fair number of reproduction T206 Wagners. John had purchased one of these cards and put it in a thick, lucite screwdown. He brought the lucite screwdown by my table and asked me what I thought the card was worth. Brian, who was with me, told him, "Nothing, it's a reprint", to which he replied, "Just you wait. It's going to be worth something someday."

I also remember purchasing a good condition (creased and worn) 1965 Topps Joe Namath from the pair of entrepreneurs and spent a short amount of time looking through a box of rough condition 1960s - 70s comic books and low-grade 1960s baseball cards. Incidentally, when they first brought the box of comic books to our table, they told us it was their "million dollar collection". I remember getting a signed receipt from them for the purchase of the Namath. I don't know if I still have it but if I get some time one of these days, I'll look for it and post an image of it if I can find it. This is significant because in Michael O'Keeffe's book, Ray Edwards denies being at this or any other card show.

Some other details: John was a lot thinner back then and Ray had long, straight hair, kind of like Fabio. We reasoned that he must have used a straight iron to get it to look like that, though we never asked him specifically.

One additional thought. Michael O'Keeffe and Teri Thompson do seem to reach a conclusion about the nature of the Cobb/Edwards reprinted T206 Wagner. Here is what they write at the top of page 154 in The Card:

"If Cobb and Edwards were truly a couple of con artists, as so many of the Network54 collectors and dealers said they were, they surely would have ditched their T206 Wagner years ago and moved on to something more profitable."

This stuff is so interesting. Sad, actually.

For the record, O'Keefe and Thompson's logic crossed my mind too, but of course it is in no way solid deduction. Because if the card sold for anywhere over a quarter of a million dollars, it'd be worth keeping the pursuit alive for 25+ years.

[teetwoohsix]

Brian-

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence-you are obviously a smart guy.
You are correct,you never did ask me to be a part of this conversation-but you are posting on an internet message board,so expect any ol' person to chime in.
You don't need to see the "card's thickness" or the "glued edges" to see the card is a fake-period.
I'm shocked that you would spend so much time playing "devil's advocate" for Cobb/Edwards before you looked at their card.................
I suggested you make an offer on their card because you seem to be trying to convince yourself that maybe,just maybe,it is real.
Have a nice night-

Clayton

[Brian-Chidester]

Hi Clinton... surely things get lost in the translation from our minds to the posting. But, no, I was never trying to wish it or hope it were real.

In reading the old thread on this card, I simply couldn't believe how mad it made people. Since I'd never seen the card in mention, I thought I'd ask, no big deal. And once I saw it, I thought I'd break it down, even if no one else was interested. Trust me, it looked fake to my eyes, but I was just looking for that one thing that said, "Okay, it LOOKS fake, but here's the kicker." Not an eye thing, but something concrete. When I saw that font next to my own 1987 reprint, it was concrete... no T206 was printed with that font.

It might have been indulgent, but with so much fury, I suppose I pushed the issue a bit.

[Brian-Chidester]

Sorry, Clayton, not Clinton...

[calvindog]

In reading the old thread on this card, I simply couldn't believe how mad it made people. Since I'd never seen the card in mention, I thought I'd ask, no big deal. And once I saw it, I thought I'd break it down, even if no one else was interested. Trust me, it looked fake to my eyes, but I was just looking for that one thing that said, "Okay, it LOOKS fake, but here's the kicker." Not an eye thing, but something concrete. When I saw that font next to my own 1987 reprint, it was concrete... no T206 was printed with that font.

It might have been indulgent, but with so much fury, I suppose I pushed the issue a bit.

Brian, here is the number one rule of Net 54: if there is evidence of a fraud and it is committed by a friend of a large percentage of the board, then there is a muted, "boys will be boys" response. If there is evidence of a fraud, no matter how small, which is committed by a non-friend then the pitchforks and torches come out.

[teetwoohsix]

No hard feelings Brian,in fact,I admire your drive.
But I,like many,get very offended by these two individuals.They want the meal ticket,and will burn anyone who thinks it may be a real Wagner.Thats the pathetic part.
Regardless of how many veteran collectors,hobbyists,graders,etc. tell them it's fake-they refuse to accept it.Now everyone who says it's fake is a racist.
Look at what they say on page 154-"It's like we won the lottery and we can't cash the ticket"...............that about sums it up.

Take care

Sincerely,Clayton

[Brian-Chidester]

Brian, here is the number one rule of Net 54: if there is evidence of a fraud and it is committed by a friend of a large percentage of the board, then there is a muted, "boys will be boys" response. If there is evidence of a fraud, no matter how small, which is committed by a non-friend then the pitchforks and torches come out.

Heheh. Good to know...

[Brian-Chidester]

No hard feelings Brian,in fact,I admire your drive.
But I,like many,get very offended by these two individuals.They want the meal ticket,and will burn anyone who thinks it may be a real Wagner.Thats the pathetic part.
Regardless of how many veteran collectors,hobbyists,graders,etc. tell them it's fake-they refuse to accept it.Now everyone who says it's fake is a racist.
Look at what they say on page 154-"It's like we won the lottery and we can't cash the ticket"...............that about sums it up.

Take care

Sincerely,Clayton

Funny thing is, I don't have a drive in this instance. I was just surprised at the rhetoric when I read the old thread, and decided to puh the issue to see what this was all about. I mean, I'd known about their card for several years now, but just hadn't seen it and didn't know why it caused such anger.

[Brian-Chidester]

Posting this for Brian C....

By the way, if anyone didn't already know, the picture Leon posted features (left to right): [1] a PSA graded 5(MC) Wagner; [2] the Cobb/Edwards card; and [3] the 1987 Hygrade Toy Co. reprint.

Obviously the front of 2 and 3 are the same. Likely hypothesis being it is rebacked.

[PolarBear]

Sounds like they thought, as often happens in society, if they cry "racism" people will start throwing money at them.

When that didn't happen, well of course, that's proof it WAS racism all along.

They expected to get preferential treatment, but were treated like any other person with a fake, so again, because they're black, that's obviously proof of racism.

They knew what they we're doing, and tried working the system. It just hasn't paid off for them yet.

This game gets played in many venues. Here's a similar story.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/8CA33A4D9B3F31C08625768A001A23E1?OpenDocument

[barrysloate]

Goofy story. The Bureau of Printing and Engraving never issued a million dollar bill- that information should have been easy enough to find.

Reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons where Mr. Burns had a trillion-dollar bill.

[toppcat]

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner's font should be enough proof. I can't see why people are still talking about this like there is a possibility it's real.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I find it intriguing that he appeared to have no sense of obligation to find it's rightful owner.

[Brian-Chidester]

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner's font should be enough proof. I can't see why people are still talking about this like there is a possibility it's real.

Beyond being curious about a story that has gotten a lot of press, and a card which I've never seen, the reason I really wanted to talk about it and revel in it a bit was to see if it matched up with any of my T206 Wagner reprints. I'm kind of giddy that it did. I mean, it's staring you right in the face.

[PolarBear]

I find it intriguing that he appeared to have no sense of obligation to find it's rightful owner.

Because he knew it wasn't real despite the well-meaning, but ignorant, persona the reporter is trying to create.

The game is: Gin up a grievance, real or not, then play the "victim". Society has been trained to be polite and assume everyone has a valid point, so they generally just do what it takes to make someone happy, even if they don't necessarily believe the grievance is justified.

Society has created a system that rewards the perpetually aggrieved.
These are just examples of people testing the boundaries of the system.

[Brian-Chidester]

In the words of Napoleon Bonaparte: "Ten persons who speak make more noise than ten thousand who are silent."

[drc]

The press has the annoying ability to report a lot about nothing. What a normal person could say up in one sentence (such as "The US government never made a $1 million bill, so obviously the bill can't be real"), a newspaper can write a 5 day expose about. I assume the reporter realized if he summed it up in one sentence there would be no story to report, and his job is to report stories.

[Brian-Chidester]

The press has the annoying ability to report a lot about nothing. What a normal person could say up in one sentence (such as "The US government never made a $1 million bill, so obviously the bill can't be real"), a newspaper can write a 5 day expose about. I assume the reporter realized if he summed it up in one sentence there would be no story to report, and his job is to report stories.

That can be true from time to time. I've been assigned stories where they wanted 500 words and I had to stretch to get 250, and then I've had other stories where the argument was so detailed that you couldn't possibly tell it in less than 2,500 words, yet I was told to get it down to 300 words (!!!). Journalism is sometimes an impossible task that manages to meet its deadline each day. For good or for bad.

I like to think of it as comparable to what doctors experience as their residency. Any good writer of non-fiction invariably must go through the growing pains of writing for a newspaper. Long hours, low pay and endless frustration. But in the end, you come out refined and ready to do something bigger. Like a book or a screenplay maybe.

And then you want to get on the best sellerlist and win the nobel prize, and then all will be right with the world. Hehehe.

[calvindog]

I think Mike O'Keeffe will have to stand in line behind Obama for his Nobel Peace Prize. At least Obama doesn't hate cards.

[Jim VB]

I think Mike O'Keeffe will have to stand in line behind Obama for his Nobel Peace Prize. At least Obama doesn't hate cards.



Troublemaker!

[Brian-Chidester]

Heheheh!