More photo help...

[Abravefan11]

I have been trying to date the following photo and think I have it narrowed down to 1913 based on the uniforms and if the second picture is Tillie Shafer.

Any help is appreciated.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1st3WKF-FI/AAAAAAAAB4c/VDvLfysspDQ/s576/1913%20NY%20Giants.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1juYhIGnqI/AAAAAAAABy8/U35dQPz9B1k/NY8.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1jrwiFh5qI/AAAAAAAAByc/HT86SkHZJ5U/NY1.jpghttp://lh3.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1jrv6yrU1I/AAAAAAAAByY/Q2Dqth28VxI/NY2.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1jrvPfNKwI/AAAAAAAAByU/6z27A8ScRtg/NY3.jpghttp://lh4.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1jruVvSegI/AAAAAAAAByQ/e1z0qlkpIRA/NY4.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1jrtSk8bQI/AAAAAAAAByM/bY4jQ6D7Li4/NY5.jpghttp://lh4.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1jrshddGwI/AAAAAAAAByI/yXPiJUUQFWc/NY6.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1jrrzGoDfI/AAAAAAAAByE/uARRf7WmmFs/NY7.jpg

[bmarlowe1]

Tillie Shafer for sure.

Thanks for the nice scan of all the faces.

[Abravefan11]

Thanks Mark. That makes it 1913 then for sure.

Now to just figure out the ballpark. :(

[bmarlowe1]

I don't recognize the background - the key is the support structure under the roof. And they do look like road uniforms - but it's hard to tell for sure.

[slidekellyslide]

Thanks Mark. That makes it 1913 then for sure.

Now to just figure out the ballpark. :(

Small grandstands...think Spring Training. Possibly the ballpark in Marlin Springs, Texas.

[Abravefan11]

I think the photo was taken in April of 1913 at one of the ball parks in the Virginia State League. The Giants played the Richmond Colts the first week of April and may have played one of the other teams in the league before or after.

[thekingofclout]

What an absolutely fabulous photograph you have there! Just tremendous.

Best, Jimmy

[Ladder7]

Who let Mugsy wear sports socks! Great image

[Potomac Yank]

Not seeing Jim Thorpe in the foto posed a few questions.
I know that Thorpe appeared in 19 games of the 1913 season.
My questions are:
Did he get a try out in spring training?
He's found on the 1913 T200 NY Giants team card.
When was he brought up?
When was he sent back down?
It might be a piece of the puzzle to the dating of this fantastic photo.

[Kawika]

I gave the trusty old New York Times Archives a once over for the period of March 15 to April 15, 1913 and gleaned the following (all dates are of publication and not necessarily the date of the event, more likely the preceding day):
March 22 - break camp at Marlin Springs
-swing through Houston, Beaumont, New Orleans, Mobile
April 1- @ Birmingham
April 2- @ Marysville College at Knoxville
April 4- @ Norfolk
April 5- @ Richmond
April 6&7- @ Baltimore O's
April 8- @ Washington
April 10- @ Yale
Opened season at Polo Grounds vs Braves on April 10
Also did a search for "Thorpe Giants". He appeared to be injured part of the spring and was at some point relegated to the second team (Colts or Yannigans). There were no hits from March 25 to April 9. Make of this what you will.

Once in a while I get green with envy at another's pick-ups. This is one of those times. A most awesome photograph!

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersko/kawika/miscellany/100392824%20Norfolk.pdf http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfoldersko/kawika/miscellany/100260748%20Richmond.pdf

[slidekellyslide]

Those grandstands can be from any of those towns. There is not enough of the grandstands to probably ever be able to identify one conclusively. Perhaps a clue lies within the fans in the stands as to the whereabouts...is that a sailor to the far left in the front row?

[nolemmings]

Joe, according to baseball-reference.com Thorpe made his debut on April 14, 1913.

A few of the fans in the row immediately behind Matty are wearing what appears to be the same type of pin, bar or script on their lapels. Can that be blown up further and identified?

[Abravefan11]

First of all thanks for the great comments and help. Secondly this is not my photo, but here’s how I came upon it so to speak.

A few months ago I was doing some random searches at the library and one of the returns caught my eye. It was a photo of the NY Giants in a library owned collection. After a little more searching and I found out that the collection was donated to the library and was a compilation of work done by a local photographer in the early 20th century. Almost all of the photographs were of buildings or machinery except for this one. It’s actually a glass plate negative and after a little paper work and a little money the library provided me with a high resolution scan.

Since receiving the image I have wanted to try and accurately date it if I could as well as determine where it was taken.

As of yesterday I had it narrowed down to the first week of April if it was taken in Virginia. Given the rest of the photographers collection that was almost a given.

Perhaps a clue lies within the fans in the stands as to the whereabouts...

Before leaving for the library today I was studying the photo and noticed this guy.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1pHzgurxtI/AAAAAAAAB0M/4IqMw6D17Wc/zoo.jpg

I noticed his hat had what looked like the letter Z and an O on it. After a little more looking I could barely make out a little bit of another O. ZOO! The Virginia Zoo was opened in 1892 in Norfolk in Lafayette Park and still exists today.

With that I headed to the library and looked at the Virginia Pilot newspaper for the first week of April 1913. On April 3 they printed a picture of the Norfolk Tars at Lafayette Park with what appears to be the same grandstand behind them.

Richmond opened a new ballpark that year (Broad Street Park) and it does not look like the one in this photo.

So the photo should have been taken April 3, 1913 in Norfolk, VA the day the Giants came to town.

An estimated 4,000 fans came out to watch Matty throw against the hometown club. The Giants won 10-4.

Edited to add: I'm not saying I'm 100% correct, let me know if you spot something that doesn't add up.

[Kawika]

Tim: Just for the sake of accuracy, the game between the Giants and Norfolk was played on April 3rd. Arcadia Books has a volume called "Baseball in Norfolk" (link = http://tinyurl.com/yevbo2b ). If you're not familiar with Arcadia their books are compilations of old black-and-white photos on various subjects; some of their baseball books are outstanding. Anyway I'd bet the Norfolk volume would have something to say about Lafayette Park.

[Abravefan11]

David,

You're correct and thanks for pointing it out for the sake of accuracy. It was a typo on my part.

Thanks for sharing the book Baseball In Norfolk, Virginia, I actually got it today. :) Sadly there is not a picture of Lafayette Park in it. :(

Tim

[bmarlowe1]

Nice find and great job on the research.

[slidekellyslide]

Norfolk makes sense...I spot what looks like two sailors in the crowd.

[Abravefan11]

Norfolk makes sense...I spot what looks like two sailors in the crowd.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1jnn0X3WwI/AAAAAAAAB2M/GP1vJzMqGAU/Mann_00126.jpghttp://lh4.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1p5ffEAJsI/AAAAAAAAB2s/oYV8ikWzocY/sailor%201.jpg

[bmarlowe1]

Detailed analysis of Tim's photo shows that the NY NL 1913 T-200 was a cut and paste job using mostly pieces from a photo taken at the same session.

Look at the T-200, and look at the far right of Tim's photo - you see Tesreau and the mascot. Just below them , right to left - Merkle, Wiltse, Snodgrass. Close details like jersey folds, shoe toungues, etc. match in both images.

Players like Ames and Devore who were traded were cut out, and Fromme pasted in for the T-200.

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/bmarlowe1/NYNL19132072fuc.jpg

[Kawika]

Is there a Nobel Prize for baseball card genetics? I nominate Mark. This is incredible.

[Potomac Yank]

Mark ... Outstanding observations.

Allow me to add, It's a thread like this, that gives one the feeling that they are involved in a pre WW1 vintage forum.

It's a small band of brothers, and I salute you for sharing your thoughts, and observations towards the search of the unknown.

Dan: - Two gobs in the stands ..... I caught that also, and I'm leaning towards Norfolk.

Todd: - There must be a connection with the guys in the front row, lapel pins, bow ties, and Mugsie with his bowler hat and cane.

Tim, and David: - Great research by the two of you.

Mark: - I agree with what David said. :)

The team work is Outstanding.

I'm having a difficult time trying to identify the player or coach standing to the left of Chief Meyer's in Tim's photo.
The player or coach is replaced by Fromme in the T200 team card.
I don't recall meeting him ... don't laugh ... I can recall seeing Art Fletcher as a coach in the Polo Grounds during 1944, and Connie Mack managing the A's dressed in a suit, with a scorecard in his hand. :D

[barrysloate]

Great photo, great research, great thread.

This one should be put on the main board and be required reading for all collectors.

[Abravefan11]

I'm having a difficult time trying to identify the player or coach standing to the left of Chief Meyer's in Tim's photo.


I believe it's Wilbert Robinson.


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/S1rz_YQWCFI/AAAAAAAAB3M/nPfpYyuYaI0/robinson%20myers.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3506/3953329776_0ca7251f64.jpg

[barrysloate]

Tim- first time I glanced at the image I recognized Wilbert Robinson. He was a Giants' coach in 1913.

[bmarlowe1]

The IDs are:
back:
Demaree - Burns - Meyers - Robinson - Art Wilson - Marquard - Matty - Ted Goulait - Devore - Tesreau
front:
Babydoll Jacobson - Doyle -Ames - Shafer - Herzog - Murray - McGraw - Snodgrass - Wiltse - Merkle

[Potomac Yank]

I believe it's Wilbert Robinson.

*

With the tail between my legs, this could fall under two categories.

1. I couldn't see the tree's for the forest ... Or.

2. If Tim's foto was a dog, it would have bitten me.

I could see that he was a little bit to old for a player ... but how could I miss the Oriole connection?

Oh well, I guess that guy Al Zimer is getting closer. :o

[Abravefan11]

First off Mark thank you for lending your expertise to this. As always you have shown your knowledge and technique to be superior to all others.

When I initially posted this photo I never expected this thread to take on the life that it has. Connecting this to the T200 Fatima was beyond my expectations and truly a great find.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed.

I plan to look for further photographic evidence of what we think we know and will post anything that shows merit as I find it.

[cfc1909]

great photo Tim-great things happening on this new 54-I like it

[bmarlowe1]

I observed a few more interesting things, so I had to bump this.

Fromme's head was placed in Wilbert Robinson's body:

[bmarlowe1]

Jim Thorpe's head was placed on Jacobson's body. Look carefully at the shoe toungues, sock folds near the shoes, sleeve length , t-shirt color:

[bmarlowe1]

Art Fletcher's head was placed on Red Ames' body. Again look at the shoes/socks, and the jersey pinstripes as they go over the left shoulder (viewer's right) near the arm:

[slidekellyslide]

The Thorpe photo appears to be a real Frankenstein job...look at the right leg..the photographer moved the angle of the leg and he must have put another cleat on from somewhere else because the angle is completely different from the Jacobson photo.

[bmarlowe1]

No I don't think so. Keep in mind that the T-200 card and the photo Tim found are from the same session - but they are not the same photo. So some people have moved somewhat, others hardly at all.

[rhettyeakley]

Mark, great detective work placing the two images together. I always thought the Thorpe and Fletcher images looked especially funky on the T200 and now I know why. It was a pretty good hatchet job on Thorpe--look at his right shoulder seam of the jersey, they didn't even try to make them line up. Also, talk about indignity, getting your head placed on the body of an aging Wilbert Robinson could make anyone a little self-concious.

Also just to add something else...not only did they use Ames' body to turn him into Art Fletcher, they also used his body to put McGraw into a jersey (looka t foot placement and hand placemnet--they are the same)
-Rhett

[rhettyeakley]

Also, it appears McCormick was completely a photo-shop job replacing the guy sitting in the original photo. Quite a bit of work went into getting this photo ready.

[sox1903wschamp]

I absolutely love this thread. It is what collecting is all about. Nice job by everyone who contributed to it. I now look at the T-200 Cards in a different light and wonder what they did to some of the photos from the other teams?

[bmarlowe1]

Rhett - you are absolutely right about McGraw, with some major surgery done on the arms.

What is really cool is that if you zoom in on McCormick and look just above and left of his face, you can clearly see the hat brim and part of the face of the guy that was deleted.

WHile I'm at it let me add some shameless self-promotion. For those who enjoy this sort of thing, there is a lot more in a quarterly newsletter (in electronic form only) I produce for SABR. All you have to do to get it is join. That said, I will be happy to honor individual requests from anyone via PM for the current or back issues .

[mzm55]

I realize that this thread is old, however, this is the first time I've seen it. It seems that the stadium should be Norfolk's and I am pretty concrete that it is. Take a look at some T209s I own of Norfolk players; the players are nicely posed right in front of the stands with the stadium in the background.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m84/mzm55cards/t20917.jpg

[slidekellyslide]

The evidence is mounting for Norfolk. Good work Zach.

[bmarlowe1]

Thanks for the post Zach. We do know it's Norfolk from a photo of the Tars in the Virgina Pilot found by Tim - same background as the Giants photo.

[bmarlowe1]

I wanted to bump this thread to plug the Pictorial History Committee photo analysis newsletter that I write for SABR. It's called "Mystery Photo" for internal historical reasons - but that name really doesn't fit. It's all about rational photo analysis

They are all available for download, starting with the April 2008 issue, for exactly $0 each (I guess it would be a better deal if I paid people to download it).

The first few issues were weak - but I think it's gotten better over time (at least longer and more controversial). The May 2009 issue was devoted to photo auctions. The May 2010 features Tim's Giants photo discovery. So if you have nothing better to do, here they are from newest to oldest:

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto5-10.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto1-10.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto9-09.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto5-09.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/mysteryphoto2-09.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto9-08.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/M...ublication.pdf (http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto6-08forpublication.pdf)

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/F...otoColumn1.pdf (http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/FimoffMysteryPhotoColumn1.pdf) <!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

<HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1>

[BBSD]

Interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

[Ladder7]

Phenomenal work. Enjoyed em!

[Abravefan11]

Mark thanks so much for all your expert input. What started out as simply trying to date the Giants photo and determine where it was taken was transformed when you connected it to the T200. Your article was fantastic and I look forward to reading more about your findings in future publications.

[GrayGhost]

Great job and very informative.

[mschrader]

That photo was taken April 4, 1913 at Lafayette Park in Norfolk, Virginia. The Giants played an exhibition game against the Norfolk Tars on their way back north that spring.

[GoldenAge50s]

What a fantastic thread & beyond superior detective work! You guys are amazing! I enjoyed reading this one as much (or more) as any thread I can remember! (and I've been coming here quite a while!)

[bmarlowe1]

That photo was taken April 4, 1913 at Lafayette Park in Norfolk, Virginia. The Giants played an exhibition game against the Norfolk Tars on their way back north that spring.

See link from post #41 above:
http://sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto5-10.pdf

[atx840]

bump.

What a great thread, awesome read and detective work gents.

[thecatspajamas]

Amazing detective work, and I hadn't seen this thread previously. Thanks for bumping!

Mark, is it still possible to get on the e-mail list for the Mystery Photo newsletter pdfs?