W600 Signed Cy Young - Now Authentic?

[canjond]

Just noticed this in the Goodwin auction...

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=12508&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1

Wasn't this the same card that was on eBay a few years ago "raw" and the signature was determined to be no good? I remember there being a post about the card.

If, I'm incorrect, please correct me and I will gladly take back my thoughts...

[Orioles1954]

I seem to recall that as well.

[Epps]

I also remember this card appearing on Ebay.

[Matt]

There definitely was one on eBay that was deemed no good (I think there was some funky story about it being at the authenticators while the listing was up or something like that).

Anyhoo, I'm almost positive that one on eBay was after Spence left SGC, so maybe this is a different one?

[canjond]

Matt - you 100% correct and I think this is the same one, and I do remember the story about it being left with Spence while the ebya auction was running.

[canjond]

Interestingly enough, the other forum has a concurrent thread going about this card. Ben still has his pictures up from the July 2008 auction. It is, without question, the same card...

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=94&u=12386672
http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=95&u=12386672

edited link out....

[Matt]

[quote=canjond;776947]Interestingly enough, the other forum has a concurrent thread going about this card. Ben still has his pictures up from the July 2008 auction. It is, without question, the same card...

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=94&u=12386672
http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=95&u=12386672



I said almost sure :) Incredible that it is actually a good sig...

[canjond]

I said almost sure :) Incredible that it is actually a good sig...


I hope so for the buyers sake. I wonder, with no know D.T. Young exemplars/samples, how one authenticates such a piece?

[bigfish]

It certainly is a special peice. JSA certed the auto so I have no reason to believe that it is not real. I guess it would be easy to assume the worst while it was raw on ebay. Now it has been certed by JSA. Why would there be a question about it's authenticity now that it has been evaluated by JSA? JSA is the best in the buisness. I think it is a super item. Just my opinion.

Edited to say the I did not consign the Young card. Just giving my opinion.

[Bicem]

I hope so for the buyers sake. I wonder, with no know D.T. Young exemplars/samples, how one authenticates such a piece?

How does one authenticate any rare sig? I personally think the entire signature authentication process is a bunch of BS, but that's just me. Slant flow and pen pressure... give me a break.

[Orioles1954]

Spence will tell you this much. An LOA is not the gospel, it is a professional opinion. Such opinions have been right, some have been wrong. There are no forensic handwriting experts that I'm aware of who work professionally. in the hobby. Ultimately, it is left to the buyer to draw their own conclusions.

[Orioles1954]

How does one authenticate any rare sig? I personally think the entire signature authentication process is a bunch of BS, but that's just me. Slant flow and pen pressure... give me a break.

Jeff, it is ultimately a question of trust. It's a darn good thing I'm not famous. My signature changes slant and flow everytime I sign anything :)

[barrysloate]

Even if this is the only D.T. Young signature, wouldn't the "Young" on this W600 have to match pretty closely with later "Cy Young" signatures? I'm not an autograph expert, so I'll leave that to others to determine. Maybe Jodi B. or someone else has an opinion he can share.

[henson1855]

Jsa has made a number of notable blunders as of late,personally I would think twice before buying anything Jsa has authenticated,anyone interested can refer to www.autographalert.com

[tinkereversandme]

The authenticating game is all hooey. Why would you think it's unauthentic?

Because authenticators make errors (a lot more than people believe) and let's hope for Jimmy's sake, he isn't passing this thing as a "favor" for someone.

Cheers,

Larry

[packs]

I just don't see how if this is the only ever DT Young signature that anyone would stake their entire reputation behind saying it is likely authentic even though there is nothing to compare it to. Even if JSA thinks that the signature is authentic, I would have a hard time staking my reputation on a maybe. This is going to be a high profile auction. If they are wrong, people are going to know. Would JSA authenticate a Plato signature on the side of some ancient pottery too just because it matched the time period and writing device?

[Matt]

This is going to be a high profile auction. If they are wrong, people are going to know.

Not sure how anyone can prove one way or the other to say they were "wrong."

[packs]

I don't see how there can just be one. After this auction someone will probably come out of the woodwork with another DT Young signature that may or may not have a little more provenance, which would either confirm or deny the authenticity of this one. At least that is what I'm thinking. Not saying its a bad sig. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.

[Robextend]

anyone interested can refer to www.autographalert.com

Cool site. Not being an autograph expert, I found this statement rather interesting regarding the JSA authentication sticker:

"Number one rule of thumb in the collecting business: Never affix a foreign matter to an original item of historical importance. This includes historical documents, maps, original collectibles, coins, stamps, autographs, etc. A professional would never deface a historical piece by putting their official business logo on it. It defaces the piece and irrevocably alters its historical significance and value."

Is that true? And if it is, why would JSA do that?

[Leon]

Cool site. Not being an autograph expert, I found this statement rather interesting regarding the JSA authentication sticker:

"Number one rule of thumb in the collecting business: Never affix a foreign matter to an original item of historical importance. This includes historical documents, maps, original collectibles, coins, stamps, autographs, etc. A professional would never deface a historical piece by putting their official business logo on it. It defaces the piece and irrevocably alters its historical significance and value."

Is that true? And if it is, why would JSA do that?

I don't care who does it but putting a sticker on an antiquity is a dispicable and indefensible practice, imo. I have some stickers on items and every time I see them I just think how dumb whoever did that was. It's idiotic!!

[prewarsports]

Wasn't Cy Youngs personal 1889 autograph album recently sold at auction with his name on the cover? I would think that item would have his signature as Denton Young. I will need to see if I remember where that thing was, but I am thinking it was Legendary.

Rhys

[barrysloate]

As I said, I'm not an autograph guy, but there is a leap of faith here.

[henson1855]

Here is a link to an interesting article how JSA deemed an 1899 letter from Ed Delahanty authentic,when Delahanty's name was misspelled "Delehanty"The letter sold for $30,000.00 in a Hunt auction a few years ago,when the letter was to be resold last year,it was pulled from the auction and determined not to be authentic,needlees to say there is now at least one lawsuit pending againt JSAhttp://autographalert.com/2006-7-12.html

[HRBAKER]

After all is said and done isn't the authentication a non-guaranteed best guess?

[T206Collector]

....a willingness to pay a premium for something based on someone else's opinion. Take the Cy Young, if there was a video of him signing the card 70 years ago, it would be worth more than anyone's LOA would make it worth. But even there, you would have questions about the authenticity of the video. In the end, if you receive an autograph in person, it is the only way to know it was 100% signed by that person.

People who collect autographs of dead people understand that there is always a leap of faith. They factor that leap into their purchasing decisions. With JSA, it is a slightly shorter leap because people collect JSA certified items and so there is currently a resale market for JSA items. Ditto PSA/DNA.

E.g., I might pay $500 for a JSA certified autographed T206 card that I'd pay $1,000 for if Jeff Morey obtained the signature in person 40 years ago and then sold it to me. It is all about comfort level for each item. And it is similar to collecting high grade pre-war cards while hoping the card had never been trimmed or soaked out of a scrap book.

Finally, all authenticators make mistakes, but I've seen in person and read enough cool stories about what Spence can do well to have a reasonable amount of faith in his opinion.

[collectbaseball]

About six months ago I won this on ebay for $2k and change, but after some discussion with the seller I decided not to go through with the sale. I've been trying to dig up the emails but unfortunately I can't seem to find them -- I remember that there was something fishy about the whole thing... If I recall correctly he said he was sure the card was real but unsure about the signature -- he may have said that Spence declined to authenticate it at one point. I could be getting the last part mixed up with something else, though. I'll keep searching for the emails, hopefully I can find them.

It'll be interesting to see the outcome of this... maybe I made a $20k mistake!

[T206Collector]

I would also add that Leon has an awesome Hal Chase card that has been signed by Chief Meyers, using only his initials "JTM". It is a fantastic card and everyone that has looked at it that knows Chief's signature agrees it was done in his hand. But I have seen several different style Meyers autographs -- sometimes he signed in script, sometimes not, sometimes he called himself John, sometimes "Chief", sometimes he included his middle initial "T" and sometimes he wrote Chief as his middle name, sometimes with and sometimes without quotes. The man lived a long time and had several different writing styles over the years. Not at all surprising.

[Leon]

I would also add that Leon has an awesome Hal Chase card that has been signed by Chief Meyers, using only his initials "JTM". It is a fantastic card and everyone that has looked at it that knows Chief's signature agrees it was done in his hand. But I have seen several different style Meyers autographs -- sometimes he signed in script, sometimes not, sometimes he called himself John, sometimes "Chief", sometimes he included his middle initial "T" and sometimes he wrote Chief as his middle name, sometimes with and sometimes without quotes. The man lived a long time and had several different writing styles over the years. Not at all surprising.

I bought this on ebay, many years ago for only $125, because it had writing on the front. Neither the seller, nor I for at least 7-8 yrs, knew what the writing was. I had posted the card on this board referring to the M110 series and that is when it was discovered!! I had previously tried to erase the writing but fortunately it was done with one of those darned pens that won't erase. The glare is from the scan and holder. I really started liking this card after more thought about it, and the fact the ole Chief signed a bit of a personal thought....best regards


http://luckeycards.com/pm110chasegraded.jpg

[packs]

Even in those extreme examples the C and H in Chief both printed and script are very similar and comparable.

[yanksfan09]

Leon: That Chase card is amazing. Great story with it!

[Leon]

BTW, another tidbit I use to determine authenticity, though very unscientific, is the way something is being sold. On this M110, sold by a board member to me on ebay, if I recall correctly, it was NOT touted as a Chief Meyers signature. It was just said to have writing on it. I didn't know it was a Meyers auto for several years, therefore there was no financial motive on the front end sale. To me it gives a bit more comfort that it might be real, and of course the JSA authentication after the fact helps too. Here is a W515-1 with an overprint/stamp (one for ya' Rob) and I got it not too long ago, and again the stamp on back was barely mentioned. The card went for under $70.....so, no financial motive on it, means it's more likely to be good, at least to me. Just some random thoughts....


http://luckeycards.com/pw514collinsstampback.jpg

[Rob D.]

Here is a W515-1 with an overprint/stamp ... The card went for under $70.....so, no financial motive on it, means it's more likely to be good, at least to me. Just some random thoughts....

I'm confused. I thought all overprints on the backs of cards are good.

[Leon]

I'm confused. nuff said :)

[scooter729]

I am actually in the midst of reading a great Cy Young biography, “Cy Young, A Pitcher’s Life,” by Reed Browning. I just read an interesting section which relates somewhat to the W600 signature (quoting from page 100 of the book):
===
Like many private persons, Cy Young was a quiet man. This trait was famously evident in his aversion to interviews. Billy Hamilton asserted unequivocally that Young won’t be interviewed, and the blunt claim was virtually true. It was also evident in his reluctance to talk about himself. That’s why, from a baseball writer’s point of view, Cy Young was not good copy. That’s also why, when he traveled, he signed hotel registers as D.T. Young. (Sporting News, 2/10/1912) He preferred anonymity.
===
So at least it appears the D.T. Young was a period signature of the time for him.

[T206Collector]

That’s also why, when he traveled, he signed hotel registers as D.T. Young.

And I would guess that the folks and JSA and PSA/DNA have one or two exemplars from hotel registers, which would make it somewhat easier to authenticate this particular example.

[Steve D]

Like many private persons, Cy Young was a quiet man. That’s also why, when he traveled, he signed hotel registers as D.T. Young. (Sporting News, 2/10/1912) He preferred anonymity.
===
So at least it appears the D.T. Young was a period signature of the time for him.



OK, so he signed "D.T. Young" in an attempt to protect his privacy, and maintain some sort of anonimity.

Why then, would he sign an autograph on a baseball card or photo, as "D.T. Young". The person obtaining the signature obviously knew his identity, so there was no anonimity or privacy to maintain.

Many famous people, even today, register at hotels under pseudonyms. They do not however, use these pseudonyms when signing autographs.

Steve
Steve

[calvindog]

OK, so he signed "D.T. Young" in an attempt to protect his privacy, and maintain some sort of anonimity.

Why then, would he sign an autograph on a baseball card or photo, as "D.T. Young". The person obtaining the signature obviously knew his identity, so there was no anonimity or privacy to maintain.

Many famous people, even today, register at hotels under pseudonyms. They do not however, use these pseudonyms when signing autographs.

Steve
Steve

Steve, I was just going to write the same thing. That W600 is no hotel registry....

[T206Collector]

Steve, I was just going to write the same thing. That W600 is no hotel registry....

True, but I'd guess old Cy put less thought into signing things from item to item than any of us put into our posts on this thread. Putting aside the authenticity of this card, of which I have no opinion, I'd be willing to wager Mr. Young signed some things other than hotel registries with his initials, as opposed to "Cy".

[scooter729]

My purpose of the post was simply to show that in that time period of around 1912 (time of the Sporting News article), Cy at least in some instances referred to himself as D.T. Young.

So the premise of an autograph being signed in such a manner is not crazy.

I wouldn't even venture a guess as to the authenticity of the signature on the W600, but I was just referencing a period article quoting Young signing his name (albeit on a hotel registry) as D.T. Young.

[T206Collector]

Of all of the forgeries of Cy Young's name that have been done, I would guess a larger percentage of those forgeries have "Cy" in the name, or even "Denton" than "D.T." Which is not to say, again, that this one is real or fake. To me it just wasn't a red flag, standing alone.

[canjond]

Also, in terms of JSA having exemplars, either they didn't, or Goodwin "inflated" the isting by saying:

"perhaps NO other Cy Young signatures carry the virtually impossible “D.T.” initials. At the risk of “skipping a beat”, we are still trying to assess the magnitude of finding a “D.T.” young autograph on what may be his rarest card in existence."

Clearly the text of the auction makes it seem as though JSA didn't have any DT exemplars or didn't inform Goodwin that they did.

[bigfish]

Everyone likes to assume the worst and is an expert on D.T. Young's auto. Nothing new here. Would JSA put their reputation on the line without extensive research? No. That would be foolish. There are other examples out there as Rhett stated earlier. D.T. Young also can be found on Young's return address on envelopes mailed early in his playing days. They can be found on the web...Google It


Jon C
Edited to say I assume the Goodwin write-up indicates that this is the only signed D.T. Young card known. That makes sense to me. Maybe there was another signed cabinet as Rhett stated but I assume there is no recorded sale to reference.

[jbsports33]

T206collector said it best, it really depends on the comfort level of the buyer, sure autographs certified are educated opinions - but like a few of the members said JSA or PSA would not determine any signature without some kind of research. They have the experience and history to make collectors feel better about their purchase. I hope that is what all of us do with signatures or anything else we buy in the hobby is to conduct the proper research, especially with an item like we are discussing.

Jimmy

[rhettyeakley]

Toby, I'm sure you meant to write Scott and not Rhett in your last comment.
-Rhett

[Bicem]

there's no way to know if it's legit or not so really the only question is how much faith do you put in JSA's opinion. Personally, I put very little but again, that's just me.

[calvindog]

Maybe Sal Bando signed it instead?

[Rob D.]

Jeff, that would be foolish.

[T206Collector]

there's no way to know if it's legit or not so really the only question is how much faith do you put in JSA's opinion. Personally, I put very little but again, that's just me.

Actually, I think the main question is whether the resale value of JSA-authenticated autographs will continue to support the final sale price of the Young for the duration of the ownership of the card; and, if not, whether PSA-DNA or the next hobby-accepted autograph authenticator will authenticate it.

[T206Collector]

I think Rob Lifson's explanation for authenticating autographs and why REA uses JSA is worth a read for anyone who is interested in collecting signatures that they did not obtain themselves. You can read it here:

http://blog.robertedwardauctions.com/?p=83

I specifically found the reason they use JSA as informative, and have pasted that section below:

At REA, we utilize the services of James Spence Authentications (JSA) to review all signed items. We think very highly of their service. This doesn’t mean that all other autograph authentication services are not good. This is what we have chosen to do because we believe that JSA offers the best authentication service in the business. That doesn’t mean that they are perfect, that they have never made a mistake, or that their opinion could not change on a given item. Some other services and individuals may be very good at providing authentication services. We find that almost 100% of the time (not 100%, but almost 100%) that if a signed item is consigned to REA with a letter from certain companies (such as PSA) or certain individuals, that JSA has the same opinion. We also find that when items are consigned with letters from certain other individuals and companies, approximately 100% of the time JSA is not OK with these items. Obviously, this is not a coincidence. Statistically, that would be impossible. When a signed item is consigned that is already accompanied by a letter of authenticity, the item and letter are separated by us before being presented to JSA for review. At REA, JSA has no idea if an item has previously been reviewed by any other service before being presented with the item authentication review. We have even had cases (very rare, but it has happened) when JSA has told us they are not comfortable writing a letter on an item previously authenticated by JSA. This is very rare but knowledge increases over time, and opinions can sometimes change over time.

[Bicem]

Actually, I think the main question is whether the resale value of JSA-authenticated autographs will continue to support the final sale price of the Young for the duration of the ownership of the card; and, if not, whether PSA-DNA or the next hobby-accepted autograph authenticator will authenticate it.

true, who cares if it's real or not as long as the resale value is there and PSA-DNA is accepted by the hobby. ;)

[calvindog]

true, who cares if it's real or not as long as the resale value is there and PSA-DNA is accepted by the hobby. ;)

Well, that's it in a nutshell. If a card is trimmed but makes it into a graded holder, everything is cool.

[T206Collector]

Well, that's it in a nutshell. If a card is trimmed but makes it into a graded holder, everything is cool.

Jeff put it a bit cynically, but I believe this actually does reflect the state of the hobby. And, I believe that the potential for trimming, even in slabs, affects the market value of cards in a way that is similar to the potential for authenticated forgeries. The risk is built into the price.

Put another way, before I'd spend crazy money on a PSA graded card with minty sharp corners, I'd want at least one other market-accepted expert to look at it first (i.e., SGC). It's the same way for me and autographs, albeit it with higher risk associated with forgeries.

I always assume that PSA and SGC and JSA and PSA-DNA will be defunct or unaccepted by the hobby in 30 years from now (or quite probably much sooner). One had better have a safety net if you are considering selling these little treasures beyond the expected lifetime of any of these companies. For the time being, that means having your best cards/autographs dual-graded or dual-authenticated, which I actually do.

[Bicem]

agreed, the faith that people put into grading is almost as crazy as auto authentication.

[T206Collector]

agreed, the faith that people put into grading is almost as crazy as auto authentication.

The way I look at it, the highest bidder on that Cy Young will be the bidder who was willing to accept the most risk that the item isn't real. But at every price level, every autograph that is sold carries risk with it. If you are not interested in making leaps of faith, both small and large, then autograph collecting isn't for you.

[rman444]

If SGC makes a mistake and holders a bad card, I believe that they make good on the purchase price of that card. I wonder if JSA would have the same type of money back guarantee for their authentication of this Young?

[slidekellyslide]

Does Goodwin think the W600 Young is rarer than the 1893 Just So?

[Matt]

If I recall, JSA divorced from SGC well before he issued this cert# - does anyone know if you can now submit JSA certs to SGC and have them slabbed with the cert on the flip like this?

[doug.goodman]

I stopped collecting autographs when the players started writing like hurried doctors, and I'm quite handy with a kitchen knife in removing cards from slabs, but I have a comment that may have a bit of relevance -

I work for a fairly popular band. They get asked for their autographs frequently. Every night I have them sign some posters from that nights show for the local promoter. If they sign 10 posters, two of the guys will have pretty much the same signature 10 times, but the 3rd guy's signature will vary widely enough that if I sorted them likeness, I would probably have 4 groups.

Two of the guys have a completely different signature for legal documents, and have been known, on occasion, to sign the wrong version.

My point is that if Cy Young tended to use DT Young in some situations, he could very easily have signed the W600 in that way. After an entertainer has signed their name as many times as my employers have, or Cy Young did, they have very little regard for the act of signing. He may have been asked to sign the W600 by the clerk who was checking him in at a hotel, so signed both the registry and card in quick succession.

Doug

[HRBAKER]

"I want to believe, I really do."

[prewarsports]

The problem is that baseball players were not really being asked for their autographs in 1902-06 or whenever this card was "signed". Pretty much the only autographs of Baseball players from that era are letters, documents, and the occassional team signed banquet menu or something like that. When a Baseball player signed a photo from this era it was almost always with a long salutation to a sports writer or family friend or something. The context of when this was supposedly signed simply does not match up with all the possibilities that have been brought up to create a scenario where this could be a signature and not just an identification.

A Baseball player from this era might have been asked for his autograph 10 times in an entire season, and even then only if they were a big star. I would think they would take their time when such a rare showing of admiration would display itself and not scribble an illegible little thing on the bottom margin!

Just my opinion.

[T206Collector]

Don't look now, but this one is now going through the roof in Heritage. $26,000 with 22 days to go. Wow.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-collectibles/others/1902-11-w600-sporting-life-cabinet-signed-by-cy-young-psa-good-2-psa-dna-authentic/a/7195-80078.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Open-ThisAuction-120115

[vintagerookies51]

I'd have to be pretty confident that the signature is going to be passed off as good if I was forging a Cy Young signature on his W600 card...