5 Tool Player

[insidethewrapper]

How many players in the Hall of Fame were 5 tool players (hit for average, hit for power, great fielder, great arm and had speed ) ? I can't think of many that were truly 5 tool players ? Please list your suggestions.

The one that comes to mind for me is Willie Mays.

[Robextend]

I think the closest I can come up with is an active player: Ken Griffey Jr.

[quinnsryche]

Frank Robinson, George Brett, Dave Winfield, Reggie Jackson off the top of my head. Hard to say about the deadball guys, the power power is hard to judge.

[White Borders]

How 'bout Joe Morgan.

[pgellis]

The newly elected Andre Dawson.

[insidethewrapper]

Most players are eliminated because of the speed (SB) factor. Frank Robinson only 204 SB's. I thought of Al Kaline ( 399 HR, 3000 hits, great fielder and great arm from rightfield, but only 137 SB's). I thought he was faster than that ( 4 out of 5). Was Reggie a great fielder and did he have a great arm ? I don't remember .

[Robextend]

I don't think Reggie was a great fielder.

[quinnsryche]

How about Clemente?

[Irwin Fletcher]

Mickey Mantle? Hit didn't steal a lot of bases, but was very efficient when he did. Also, I can't speak to the strength of his throwing arm, but it's my understanding that he was a solid centerfielder before injuries wore him down.

Jackie Robinson? He wasn't a power hitter, but his .474 career SLG is pretty respectable.

[PolarBear]

Mays was my first thought. Wagner comes to mind as well. He may not be considered a great power hitter, but take it in the context of the dead ball era. Check out his numbers on stolen bases and times caught. I was surprised at his numbers.

[prewarsports]

The first true 5 Tool player was Louis Sockalexis in the mid 1890's and that is what made him such a sensation in the Baseball World for a few years. Not a Hall of Famer but possibly the most talented player of his era.

Rhys Yeakley

[Matt]

Ty Cobb &
Shoeless Joe
should be on the list.


Here (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A07E6D71539E433A25754C1A9629C946196D6CF) is a fantastic article (with photos!) written by Charles Comiskey in 1910 for the New York Times about Cobb having all the tools.

[Anthony S.]

Bill Mazeroski.

[oldjudge]

Vladimir Guerrero is the best recent OF example I could think of (till injuries limited his SBs). Arod should also be on the list along with Mike Schmidt

[ghostmarcelle]

Oscar Charleston is probably the ultimate 5 tool player.

[pgellis]

I thought of Mike Schmidt too, but discounted him in the Speed category. He averaged less than 10 SBs per season, so I don't think you can consider him a 5 tool player, although he did have a season with 29 SBs........pretty surprising.

[bbcard1]

He is thought of as the "father of power" but I am not sure Babe Ruth wouldn't be a good candidate. He was "built funny" but an all-round athlete.

Barry Bonds would probably be a great example...ironically he was not just a 5-tool player, but he also acted like a tool most of the time.

[JK]

I think you need to look at more than the total number of SBs when considering speed. I think speed can also refer to his speed in the field (granted to some extent that encroaches on fielding). Further, not all players are going to be asked to steal bases - even if they have the capability of doing so. Some teams are not going to run as much as others.

[tiger8mush]

how about Rickey Henderson?

For present players, Carl Crawford comes to mind. And Bobby Abreau. Ichiro, though he doesn't have the most power he still has some respectable pop. Jeter?

Seems like a 5 tool player would most likely be an OFer.

Rob
:)

[yanksfan09]

Arod's pretty well rounded and was a great short stop if you look past steroid use

[Robextend]

I remember Henderson not being that great of a fielder when he was on the Yankees, maybe earlier in his career with Oakland he was.

[Frank A]

Rickey Henderson

[pgellis]

Henderson won only 1 Gold Glove award. He didn't have the greatest arm. One very unique thing about Rickey Henderson is that he bats righthanded and throws left handed. That is a rare combination. Many guys throw righthanded and bat lefthanded, but the other way around is very rare.

[BrockJacob]

Roberto Alomar comes to mind.

[JK]

To follow up on my position that speed does not equal steals, I did a quick search on the definition of a "five tool player". Speed refers to a player with the speed in order to maximize extra base hits, which dramatically improve a team's chances of scoring runs. He must also be a threat to steal bases, which puts more pressure on the opposing pitcher, catcher and defense. Certainly steals are a component of this tool, but not the sole criteria.

Here is what the sporting news says about speed.

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/sports2000/players/151059.html

[Matt]

Barry Bonds would probably be a great example...ironically he was not just a 5-tool player, but he also acted like a tool most of the time.

A 6-tool player!

[drdduet]

Honus Wagner
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Nap Lajoie
Sam Crawford

Willie Mays
Mickey Mantle
Joe Dimaggio
Ted Williams
Frank Robinson

Bobby and Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Ken Griffey Sr. and Jr.
Rickey Henderson

And the biggest "tool" player==Jose Canseco

[JK]

They arent in the hall of fame, but I'd submit that there are several five toolers in todays game (beyond the obvious such as ARod): Hanley Ramirez, Ryan Braun, Chase Utley, David Wright and Evan Longoria to name a few.

[Irwin Fletcher]

Rob Deer!

Oh, wait - I thought we were trying to name 1 tool players.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Here's my "Great 8" in no particular order:

Aaron
Mays
Mantle
Winfield
Honus
Charleston
Dihigo
"Pop" Lloyd

[mannybb24]

Cristobal Torriente

[JasonL]

Ryne Sandberg
with the possible exception of hitting for average on a consistent basis. everything else seemed to be there.
thoughts?

[Chris Counts]

He's not in the Hall of Fame, but Minnie Minoso was a five tool player. Yes, he hit only hit 186 home runs, but he played half his games in spacious Comiskey Park. And when he retired, remarkably, he was the White Sox all-time home run leader ...

[Kawika]

It's a new decade. Time for Minnie Minoso to un-retire.
http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/bbbofsfirstclass/holygrailcards/websize/CD%20Minoso.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/bbbofsfirstclass/holygrailcards/websize/eBay%20LarryPaint%2053B%20Minoso.jpg

[Jim VB]

Minnie was also a 5 Decade player!

(7 if you count the St. Paul Saints!)

[Kawika]

This from Wikipedia:
"Saturnino Orestes Armas Miñoso Arrieta, commonly referred to as Minnie Miñoso (mean-YO-so, commonly pronounced minn-OH-so by media) (born November 29, 1925 in Havana, Cuba[1]), is a former star left fielder in Major League Baseball."
All this time I thought it was Min-OH-so. Sure enough, on the back of the Caramelo Deportivo, his name has a little thingie (a tilde, I believe) above the ene. Who knew?
http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/bbbofsfirstclass/holygrailcards/websize/DMcD818.jpg

[chris6net]

Hank Aaron always come to mind when I think of a 5 tool player. As big of a superstar as he was he is underated as a complete ballplayer.CN

[tedzan]

DITTO....to what Josh K said......
"I think you need to look at more than the total number of SBs when considering speed."

Therefore, I can only vouch for who I saw play. And, I saw Mickey Mantle play from 1951 - 1968.

He was a "6-tool" player.......

1..Tremendous hitting power

2..Hit for average

3..Great CLUTCH hitter (especially in World Series play)

4..great fielder

5..Great arm

6..Great speed......Mantle ran a 3.0 secs time to 1st base (fastest in the AL)....got many doubles
and triples due to his speed.

And, saved many an extra base hit (or even inside the park HR's) by catching up to long drives in
the old Yankee Stadium's 461 foot deep centerfield.

You had to see him play to really appreciate him.


TED Z

[mark evans]

For me, it's hard to imagine a better all-round player than Willie Mays but I'm partial to players of his era having first discovered baseball in the mid-50s.

[fkw]

For his Era..... Honus Wagner was a 5 tool player.
He is 10th All Time in SB's

Bonds and Mays are in their Own League stat wise, but Bonds arm died long ago though.

After looking at a list of top SB's...
Others to consider... (not all HOFers)....... Morgan, ARod, Yount, Soriano, Winfield, etc.

[Jewish-collector]

I think Mantle before he had his injuries, Willie Mays, Clemente, and Frank Robinson.

How much better was Mays than Clemente ? Not THAT much.

[mannybb24]

Norman "Turkey" Stearnes

One of the best defensive outfielders in Negro League history.
Throw in a .350 career avg.
Top 10 in steals
and oh yeah by the way, Turkey is the all-time home run leader.

[thekingofclout]

Poor Man's Willie Mays.

A Five Tool Player is one who can Hit, Hit with Power, Run, Field, and Throw.

Running and Speed aren't always the same thing.

When HOF manager Joe McCarthy was asked who was the best base runner he ever saw. He answered the question with a question: "Would it surprise you if I said DiMaggio?" He said he never once saw the Clipper make a mistake on the bases and had no equal going from first to third. Joe also had perfected the hook-slide so much so that several decades later no one has ever approached Joe's skill.

DiMag gets my vote.

BTW... Bonds couldn't throw hard enough to break a window! You mean to tell me you guys don't remember SID BREAM?! The Bucs lost a pennant because BARRY couldn't throw out Bream from deep shortstop!

NOTE: In '91 Bream, who had to be on the wrong side of 250 pounds, was also OH for THREE in Stolen Base Attempts for the WHOLE season.

So I'll give Bonds 4 out of 5 but let's get it straight, he was no DiMaggio.

Being a lifetime Halo fan, I also gave Barry an assist for our lone Title, as he was once again playing deep shortstop, this time with Home Run Champ (47 in 2000) Troy Glaus at bat in game seven with the go ahead runner on base (BTW...Glaus had gone yard 118 times from 2000-2002).

My first reaction when Glaus hit the ball is it was a deep fly to left/left center and was bummed until I saw Barry lumbering back, back, back, as the ball floated over his head. Bonds was certainly afraid history would repeat itself and expose his glaring weakness, but Glaus just missed the pitch and Barry couldn't run it down from his shortstop position. Thank you Sir! May I have another!

[Robextend]

For his Era..... Honus Wagner was a 5 tool player.
He is 10th All Time in SB's

Bonds and Mays are in their Own League stat wise, but Bonds arm died long ago though.

After looking at a list of top SB's...
Others to consider... (not all HOFers)....... Morgan, ARod, Yount, Soriano, Winfield, etc.

Not a bad group there, but as a Yankee lifer I can safely say that Alfonso Soriano is a bad defensive player and I don't think that can be argued!

[Chris Counts]

Jimmy, I agree with you about Vada Pinson. If he played in another era, his batting average probably would have been high enough to merit serious Hall of Fame consideration, but the 1960s were dominated by pitchers (Personally, I think he's worthy regardless). I grew up just a few miles from Anaheim Stadium, and I was about 11 when the Halos acquired Vada. Even though he was past his prime, I was in awe of him. He was such a graceful ballplayer. A friend of mine who grew up in Cincinnati recalled that he moved like a cat in the outfield ...

[Robextend]

I'm not sure if this name was said, but how about Larry Walker? Sure he had an injury filled career and played in Colorado, but he absolutely had all the tools.

[howard38]

If SB % is to be used to judge Sid Bream's speed it should be noted that the slide was actually in the '92 playoffs and that year he was six for six when attempting a steal. Clearly a speedster : )

[baseballfan]

How about Clemente?


i would say clemente, f. robby, winfield

[tbob]

Ty Cobb was a 5 tool player. Sure you look at his dead ball numbers for home runs and see there weren't that many but I remember watching a show on tv which said Ty was PO'ed at the Babe for getting all the publicity and fame for his long balls and Ty said "I'll show that #$%^&*@" and hit 3 home runs the next game. Cobb said he didn't hit home runs because they weren't necessary but many old-timers said he could have hit a lot of them if he tried. Guess we'll never know.
As far as current players, how can you not mention Joe Maurer??? He has a laser for an arm, great for average and this year started showing he is going to be a power hitter. As far as his speed goes, he is no Lou Brock, but he is very fast for a catcher (damning praise) and pretty swift afoot for a player.
Mays and Aaron were great 5 tool players, that's obvious. What about Kirby Puckett? He was deceptively fast and became a power hitter later in his career. He hit for a great average and was a great centerfielder, with strong arm and ability to bring back potential homeruns. Ditto Ernie Banks who hasn't been mentioned but could play anywhere and had speed, a power bat, could hit for average and no one loved to play more than Ernie.

[tbob]

!

[Anthony S.]

As far as current players, how can you not mention Joe Maurer??? He has a laser for an arm, great for average and this year started showing he is going to be a power hitter. As far as his speed goes, he is no Lou Brock, but he is very fast for a catcher (damning praise) and pretty swift afoot for a player.


He's a fantastic player, but if he does indeed have that fifth tool (ie speed), he's not using it very often. He has 5 steals over the past 2 years combined. He had 30 doubles last year, which is only 5 doubles than Benji Molina, who would lose a downhill race against molasses. He hit a full 100 points higher than Molina and his home and away doubles totals were 14 and 16 respectively, so the Hefty Bag Dome wasn't much of a factor. Just seems like he'd have more if he possessed that 5th tool.

[tbob]

Anthony- don't forget he (currently) plays for the Twins and their manager's strategy is don't ever bunt or steal a base when you can hack away. They are trying to keep the chances of injury down or aggravation of his back by not using him for stealing but he actually has pretty decent speed.
tbob

[KNH]

Ty Cobb was a 5 tool player. Sure you look at his dead ball numbers for home runs and see there weren't that many but I remember watching a show on tv which said Ty was PO'ed at the Babe for getting all the publicity and fame for his long balls and Ty said "I'll show that #$%^&*@" and hit 3 home runs the next game. Cobb said he didn't hit home runs because they weren't necessary but many old-timers said he could have hit a lot of them if he tried. Guess we'll never know.



Sounds like Ichiro. He could hit a lot more HR's if he chose too. Definitely a 4 tool player and a 5 tool if he wanted to be.

Dave Parker from '76-'79.

[cardaholic]

How do you play several years at catcher and still end up with 3000 hits and 400 steals? He did.

No on Soriano IMO. He's a poor fielder.