Who Should Be in the Hall that isn't

[TT40391]

I know you guys have argued about this before but I thought this would be a good time to bring the debate back up with the election that just happened. Who do you think should be in "The Hall" that has yet to be inducted. My top two picks are

1. William "Dummy" Hoy
2. Carl Mays

There are a few others but I would like to see everyones thoughts on this.

Thanks

[Scott T]

I think a strong case can be made for Tony Oliva.

[Robextend]

1 - Ron Santo
2 - Jimmy Ryan

[base_ball]

Marvin Miller

[NYHighlanderFan]

Joe Jackson (A lifetime ban expires once you're dead, right?)
Mel Harder
Bert Blyleven
Tommy John

[Wite3]

Sherry Magee

Joshua

[NYHighlanderFan]

His HOF plaque would read Sherry Magie.

[Robextend]

Joe Jackson (A lifetime ban expires once you're dead, right?)
Mel Harder
Bert Blyleven
Tommy John

Hey, being someone that has never heard Mel Harder's name brought up in HOF discussions before, could you explain why you think he should be in? Seems like his numbers are overall unimpressive to be considered for the HOF.

Thanks - Rob

[Buythatcard]

Gil Hodges
Roger Maris
Pete Rose

[ChiefBenderForever]

Without any question Pete Rose, and if not then many need to be removed. Which brings another question, who shouldn't be in the HOF.

Bert Blyleven, if he was on a good team would've won well over 300 games and with his strike out total shouldn't even be a discussion.

[NYHighlanderFan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Harder

I think he deserves consideration.

[glenv]

Lefty O'Doul

[Jacklitsch]

James McGuire
Ed Ruelbach
and
Ron Santo!!!

[Irwin Fletcher]

Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Pete Rose

[kkkkandp]

Players
Bob Caruthers
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
George Van Haltren

Executive
Chris Von Der Ahe

[rhettyeakley]

My list is admittedly long and I'm sure I'm leaving some people off (and in no particular order)...

James Creighton (1st baseball superstar--although obviously no longevity)
Jimmy Ryan
Bill Lange (had he only played one or two more years)
Dave Orr (see Lange--but I still say Orr should be in)
Bill Dahlen
Wally Schang (how did Schalk get in over him?)
Mike Donlin
Deacon White
Tony Mullane
Jake Stenzel
Jim McCormick
Larry Doyle
George Van Haltren
Jack Stivetts
Lefty O'Doul
Carl Mays
Sherry Magee
Babe Herman
Ed McKean
Bob Caruthers
Jack Glasscock
Doc Cramer
Tip O'Neil
Pete Browning
Bobby Mathews
Dummy Hoy
Larry Corcoran
Bobby Veach
Jake Daubert
Hal Chase
Stuffy McInnis
George H. Burns
Fred Tenney


Borderline:
-Urban Shocker (b/c he died early during his career), Art Nehf & Warneke are essentially the same guy
-Wes Ferrell
-Ned Williamson
-Ezra Sutton
-Heinie Zimmerman
-Elmer Smith
-Leever & Phillippe (both are better than Willis)
-Babe Adams
-Riggs Stephenson
-Ken Williams
-Jack Fournier
-Ed Konetchy
-Joe Judge
-Charlie Grimm
-Jack Quinn
-Will White

[Chris Counts]

I can't believe someone has a longer list than I do. Way to go Rhett!

I'm an "open the floodgates" guy when it comes to Cooperstown, so don't take my lengthy list too seriously, unless of course I get appointed to head up the Hall of Fame selection committee, then you'll need to prepare for a deluge:

Pete Rose, Joe Jackson, Tony Oliva, Minnie Minoso, Bert Blyleven, Barry Larkin, Roberto Alomar (I know he'll get in; the HOF voters just wanted to slap him around a bit in his first year), Lefty O'Doul, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, Ron Santo, Marvin Miller, Dale Murphy, Jim Kaat, Tommy John, Jack Morris, Lee Smith, Luis Tiant, Maury Wills and my boyhood hero, Vada Pinson. If I left out anybody I think is deserving, I apologize ...

[Brian Van Horn]

Bob Johnson

[paul]

Carl Mays, Bob Caruthers, and George Van Haltren. There are many others who are borderline and reasonably could go in. But these three clearly belong. By some accounts, Caruthers had the best winning percentage ever, though there seems to be some dispute about one or two wins or losses.

[kmac32]

Ron Santo and Lee Smith

[calvindog]

Gil Hodges

[ethicsprof]

cravath


best,
barry

[scottglevy]

Without Question:

Gil Hodges
Pete Rose

Many others mentioned previously also should be heavily considered.

[FrankWakefield]

Ed Reulbach
George Van Haltren
and I could accept Gil Hodges

If many more than that get in, the place needs to be renamed. As a kid, I could read My Greatest Day in Baseball, and the members of the Hall of Fame were really special, dominant, great, famous baseball players. As a voting writer, I'd be ashamed of having had a hand in putting some of the inductees of the past decade in with the likes of Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Christy Mathewson, and Grover Alexander... just plain ashamed.n

[30s_non-sport_gum]

Ron Santo !!

[teetwoohsix]

Man,you guys got 'em all!!For sure Pete Rose,also Hodges.
Frank,you are right.

[Fred]

There are a few players listed in this thread from the 19th Century but I didn't see Harry Stovey or Bobby Mathews mentioned.

Stovey was a fantastic batsman he led the league in the following categories:

Slugging % - 3x
Runs - 4x
Total bases - 3x
Doubles - 1x
Triples - 4x
HR's - 5x
RBIs - 1x
SBs - 2x

Bobby Mathews had 297 lifetime wins - 3 more and he would already be in the HOF.

[Misunderestimated]

In somewhat chronological order:
Deacon White
George Gore
Harry Stovey
Bobby Caruthers
Cupid Childs
Bill Dahlen
Jimmy Sheckard (seriously, look him up)
Joe Jackson
Carl Mays
(I think the time period of about 1930-60 has been pretty much covered)
Ron Santo (heartbreaking omission)
Joe Torre (Ok so I'm giving him credit for his managing too, but he's close as a player)
Burt Blyleven
Jack Morris (Shouldn't you get extra credit for post-season excellence? Isn't a win in October worth more than a win in June?)
Alan Trammel
Tim Raines (Really, he should have been a 1st ballot inductee)
Barry Larkin
Will Clark
Mark McGwire (this is a big argument starter -- save it for another thread)
Robbie Alomar (Should have been 1st ballot)
Edgar Martinez (Think of him as a great specialist like Gossage or Sutter)

--------
Non-players:
Marvin Miller
Buck O'Neill
Bill James
Tony LaRussa & Bobby Cox (when eligible)
( I think that's everyone for now)

[Bosox Blair]

Wow - people want Hal Chase and Carl Mays in the Hall of Fame??? A pair of deplorable scumbags, not just in personal life but directly in the game of baseball. If the early days of baseball had any more Hal Chases and Carl Mays-es, the game might never have made it past the 1920s.

If Carl Mays is in, then Eddie Cicotte ought to be a lock (of course we all know that can't happen). In their time, it seems to me that more people respected Cicotte than Carl Mays.

Cheers,
Blair

[rhettyeakley]

I took another look at my list and I completely forgot Harry Stovey
-Rhett

Also, Hal Chase was admittedly a pretty rotten guy and I should have qualified my earlier statement w/ the fact that he is actually banned from baseball so he will never actually get in (unless they also induct Jackson and/or Eddie Cicotte)

Mays should be in though (as he was never banned, unlike the aforementioned players)

[barrysloate]

Harry Stovey may have the best stats among players not in the Hall. A .321 career average, two seasons over .400, 744 stolen bases, and 119 home runs in an era when virtually nobody reached one hundred. He had less than 6000 at bats and only 1925 hits, so that may have held him back. Certainly much stronger stats than his contemporary Tommy McCarthy.

[BrockJacob]

Ross Barnes deserves consideraton.

[bcbgcbrcb]

"Smokey Joe" Wood's name usually comes up in these types of discussions.

[thekingofclout]

Donnie Baseball.

[Robextend]

I am glad that I am not alone in thinking Ron Santo should be in the HOF.

Ed Mathews before him and Mike Schmidt after, he was the best 3B offensively and defensively in the NL for a good 9-10 years. His statistics do nothing to weaken his case either, really not sure why he is so overlooked.

[drdduet]

Billy Martin

[ghostmarcelle]

Grant Johnson and Tony Mullane from the 19th century

Joe wood and Dick Lundy

[calvindog]

When the HOF had its first vote in 1936, only 5 players got in -- but many more received votes. Hal Chase had the 25th most votes, ahead of 18 eventual HOFers including Three Finger Brown, Sam Crawford, John McGraw, Connie Mack, Bill Terry and Al Simmons. In the 1937 vote, Chase received more votes and moved up to 22nd on the list of most votes, ahead of 32 eventual HOFers. But for his criminal actions, Chase would have been a HOF lock. He was roundly recognized as the best first baseman of his time by not just the press but his peers as well.

[Chris Counts]

The biggest knock on Santo is his .277 batting average, which is actually quite high considering he played in the 1960s, when batting averages and ERA's dropped to some of the lowest levels ever. In addition to his great glove, he had an outstanding batting eye. And remarkably, he suffered from diabetes. After reading your post, Rob, I was looking at his stats and noticed he has a lifetime on base average of .362. To put that in perspective, that's the same OBA as Pie Traynor, who has a .320 lifetime batting average. If that alone isn't enough to push him over top, I don't know what is. I just wish the Hall of Fame voters cared enough to do a little research. I realize Santo wasn't part of this vote, but considering five guys left their ballots blank, and another two voted for Eric Karros, I think it's safe to say the voting process is pretty dysfunctional right now ...

[Frank A]

Roger Maris and Dale Murphy.

[Robextend]

Chris, I couldn't agree more. Plus David Segui and Pat Hentgen got a vote each, was that some kind of a joke?

[bigtrain]

Rob,
It seems to me that a professional baseball writer who does not take his HoF vote seriously, ie.votes for David Segui, Pat Hentgen, Eric Karros, does not deserve a vote. It would be better to send in a blank ballot if you don't think anyone is deserving. The BBWAA vote is a privilege granted by the HoF, not a right. It can be taken away. Maybe that is something they should consider.

[chris6net]

I think it is a joke that Gil Hodges isn,t in.

[JasonL]

But for his criminal actions, Chase would have been a HOF lock. He was roundly recognized as the best first baseman of his time by not just the press but his peers as well.

I find it interesting, how the writers have always had this morals component to their voting. Not letting Chase in, not letting Mays in, making Alomar wait, etc.
There are a group of players that are all shoe-ins, if it weren't for either this "moral threshhold" or being banned, or both...their names have all been thrown around in this thread already...what an interesting HOF it would be if we could just admit them all based solely on their baseball accomplishments.
Add:
Rose
Jackson
Cicotte
Mays
Chase
Alomar
McGwire
Character aside, I would say, boy that group just got a whole lot better!

[Boomer]

Ken Boyer

[drdduet]

The two who voted for Karros should lose their voting priveleges.

[ibuysportsephemera]

It is a travesty that Gil is not in the Hall of Fame. His stats are not that unworthy and he won 2 World Series rings. The World Series accomplishments alone should have put him over the top.

[steve B]

Thurman Munson
Dwight Evans

Yes, maybe a little Sox fan bias here. Munson really should be in I always thought he was better than Fisk even if he did play for the Yankees.

Evans wasn't flashy at bat, but was a fantastic fielder but that rarely counts for HOF voting. At bat he wasn't all that bad either, he played in an era when 400HR was usually a sure thing, but fell a bit short He led the AL in HR and extra base hits from 1980-1989

[Bosox Blair]

He was roundly recognized as the best first baseman of his time by not just the press but his peers as well.

Oh, I don't doubt Chase's skills for a second...and imagine how much better his fielding numbers would have been if he didn't take so many payoffs to make errors :eek:.

Cheers,
Blair

[NYHighlanderFan]

Though more deserve it, at least the baseball HoF doesn't feel like they have to put six or eight guys in every year like the football HoF does!

[Frank A]

Just a question to you guys who picked Pete Rose. Do you honestly believe that if he was in debt enough to his bookie that he would not have thrown a game as manager? The man is a complete liar and addicted to gambling. He should never get in.

[FrankWakefield]

I almost agree with Frank A above...

I'm ok with Pete getting in, any day he buys an admission ticket, just like the rest of us. That's the only way he gets into the Hall.

Anyone who can't see that should read The Fix Is In: A History of Baseball Gambling ... - by Daniel E Ginsburg , one fine book. It really opens one's eyes to what has been done in the game. It addresses Pete's escapades, and many more before that... in the majors and minors. A well written, thorough book.

[Mark]

Larry Doyle, Art Nehf, Babe Adams, Harry Stovey, Ron Santo, Heine Groh.

[Robextend]

Evans wasn't flashy at bat, but was a fantastic fielder but that rarely counts for HOF voting. At bat he wasn't all that bad either, he played in an era when 400HR was usually a sure thing, but fell a bit short He led the AL in HR and extra base hits from 1980-1989

Besides Ron Santo and Jimmy Ryan I was really thinking about Evans. He career is terribly underrated and overlooked.

Also check out the stats for Ted Simmons, I'm not saying he belongs in the HOF by any means, but this guy was some hitter and very overlooked.

[paul]

I hate to show my ignorance, but what did Carl Mays do that puts him in the same category as Hal Chase and the Black Sox? I know he threw the pitch that killed Ray Chapman, which is a horrible thing. But was it an intentional beanball?

[Robextend]

I believe Mays beaning was a spitball that had gotten away from him.

I could be wrong, but I thought Mays was also accused of throwing games?

[tbob]

Mike Donlin.
Bert Blyleven.
Tony Oliva.
Ron Santo.
Ed Reulbach.
Joe Jackson.
Pete Rose.

[tbob]

5 voters submitted blank ballots. Blyleven lost out by 5 votes. Karros got 2 votes. Put these all together and you have idiocy.

[calvindog]

John Candalaria
Bruce Kison
Fred Lynn
Mike Easler
Will Clark
Frank Tanana

[Bosox Blair]

I could be wrong, but I thought Mays was also accused of throwing games?

Right you are.

Cheers,
Blair

[tbob]

John Candalaria
Bruce Kison
Fred Lynn
Mike Easler
Will Clark
Frank Tanana


Jeff- you forgot Dock Ellis who for no other reason should be in for pitching a perfect game while under the influence of LSD. Let's see Clemens try that!

[Bosox Blair]

I believe Mays beaning was a spitball that had gotten away from him.



At least one report has it as a high fastball thrown to move Chapman off the plate. Chapman never saw it and never moved. Mays was no stranger to a hit batsman. Mays was cleared of criminal wrongdoing in Chapman's death after an interview at the DA's office.

Cheers,
Blair

[calvindog]

Jeff- you forgot Dock Ellis who for no other reason should be in for pitching a perfect game while under the influence of LSD. Let's see Clemens try that!

Good point. And speaking of Clemens, how nauseous do you think he gets everytime the HOF inducts players? I can't wait for his first year on the ballot. Will he do better or worse than McGwire? I actually hate him much more than McGwire, not even close.

[toppcat]

Hodges, Dahlen and Blyleven.

[Ejm1]

Pete Reiser, just for getting last rites at the ballgame. I think thats makes him one of a kind.

[batsballsbases]

I to would have to say
Munson
Santo
Hodges

[Epps]

Hodges
Maris
Rose

[tennisguy]

Sherry Magee

[WWGjohn]

My pick would be Jim Kaat. 283 wins and 16 gold gloves seem to me to be excellent credentials.

John

[ChiefBenderForever]

Yes Pete Rose was addicted to gambling, women, and who knows what else but what does that have to do with being one of the greatest hitters ever not to mention more hits than anyone to ever play the game ! So do we remove Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle because they were women chasing alcoholics ? Ty Cobb, where do you even start ? Tris Speaker ? Wade Boggs ? Mike Schmidt ? It's the hall of fame, not the hall of morals. I'm fine if Pete Rose doesn't get in , but then many, many great players need to be removed. Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and many great players have admitted to taking speed pills to keep the energy going so is it fair for Clemens, Mcguire, and others who used a substance before it was even banned to not get in ? I think Clemens has to be let in, he was one of the greatest pitchers to ever step on the mound.

[Robextend]

I would like to have Pete Rose in as well, but he gambled on games his team played in. Then he lied about it for years even though there was plenty of evidence. If he came clean when it happened we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.

[White Borders]

Don Newcombe

Win–Loss record 149–90
Earned run average 3.56
Strikeouts 1,129

Career highlights and awards
4× All-Star selection (1949, 1950, 1951, 1955)
World Series champion (1955)
1956 NL MVP
1956 Cy Young Award
1949 NL Rookie of the Year
1956 NL TSN Pitcher of the Year

Plus he was a pretty darn good hitter.

Unfortunaley, I think the two years he was away from basebll hurt is career stats too much.

[FrankWakefield]

JohnnyHarmonica, if I were assembling a team of ballplayers of all eras, to play ONE game, a game that had to be won, I think I'd want Pete Rose on that team. His quote, "I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball.", was one memorable comment, and I think he meant it. A fierce competitor. I'd want him on the team if I had to win one game. He has no place in the Hall. Read The Fix is In. After you've read that, the entire book, so you get the background of how the leagues were formed and the focus on rooting gambling out of the game during the game's infancy, then see if you can offer a sensible reason for Pete going in.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Frank,

I can't disagree with you, it's just such a sad disgraceful story. Charlie Hustle became Charlie Hustler and the worst part is he had a chance to make it right in front of everyone. If he had just said 'I am sorry' I think he would've been forgiven. But to lie and then write a tell all book to get more money to gamble pretty much sealed the doors to the hof shut. It still doesn't change the fact that he has more hits than anyone, and the gambling he did was done as a manager but he broke the rules and even worse lied. If Clemens would've been honest instead of lying I think he would have a good shot to get in but the lies compound it into something much worse.

[bobbyw8469]

My short list...I am not an expert or anything, but I am thinking....

#1) Roger Maris
#2) Pete Rose
#3) Don Newcombe
#4) Ron Santo

[DanP]

Pete Rose
(I can't stand the sight of him, but he definitely should be in). I'm OK with inducting him the year he dies. I really don't want to see him benefit from being inducted.

Joe Jackson
Ron Santo
Gil Hodges
Luis Tiant (great stat's, personality has to count for something)

------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred Lynn would have been in if he stayed with the Red Sox
------------------------------------------------------------------

How about Horace Clarke? Was there ever a worst lead-off hitter?

[Frank A]

Fred Lynn played the outfield so hard he destroyed himself. You can't keep running into walls. He really was a great player.

[howard38]

The guy Horace Clarke replaced at leadoff hitter (and at second base), Bobby Richardson was as bad as Horace.

[SteveMitchell]

but I particularly like:

Bert Blyleven
Jim Kaat
Lee Smith
Wes Ferrell
Smoky Joe Wood
Urban Shocker
Cecil Travis
George "Tioga" Burns
Bob Johnson
Bobby Mathews
Dave Foutz

[3and2]

Gil Hodges
Roger Maris

[pokerrvp]

Totally agree with Bert Blyleven

[sportscardtheory]

I'm not going to go too far back, but here are a few I believe should be in.

1. Jack Morris (led the '80s in wins and was a post-season stud)
2. Bert Blyleven (3,701 Ks)
3. Tim Raines (808 SBs and .385 career OBP)
4. Tommy John (288 wins + average 12 wins per season, he missed a full season due to injury, = 300 wins)
5. Lee Smith (simply one of the best closers of all-time and 3rd in career saves)

[danc]

I think the Hall is in shambles to be honest with you as it is now recognizing people it didn't recognize years before. Watered down. I do not think any of the steroid generation should get in (or Blyleven), but they should start rewarding the characters whose past discretions were an issue, like Rose and Jackson...and if Mazeroski is inducted, let's throw the Maris family a bone, since baseball took away his honest record.

Marvin Miller
Pete Browning (can't wait to see the Coach's Corner signatures of Browning, who couldn't write his name)
Pete Rose
Gil Hodges
Roger Maris
Harry Stovey
Joe Jackson
Chris Von Der Ahe

DanC

[Brian-Chidester]

Shoeless Joe, Domenic DiMaggio, Sherry Magee, Vada Pinson, Dave Parker, Pete Rose, Tim Raines, Tony Oliva, Bert Blyleven, Roberto Alomar, Babe Herman, Lee Smith, Lefty O'Doul, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, Roger Maris and Maury Wills.

As for someone who should NOT be in...

Someone explain Kiki Cuyler to me. I'm not saying he definitely shouln't be, but th stats don't speak volumes to me.

Also, Bill Mazeroski and Gary Carter.

[paul]

If you're wondering about Cuyler, you should be wondering even more about Hafey.

[Brian-Chidester]

I'll have to look him up. Was just going through my 1961 Fleers this morning and reading stats, not fully comprehending Kiki Cuyler's induction, so I went and dug further on Wikipedia, SABR and Baseball-Reference. It's still not adding up, stats-wise, but with the Hall, it's not always about stats alone.

[Robextend]

Cuyler IMO is more deserving then a few others. Not being part of the era that these guys came from makes me hesistant to argue too much.

I would say the stats of Chick Hafey, Ray Schalk, and Travis Jackson make me scratch my head...

[birdman42]

Lave Cross usually shows up in these discussions. Also agree with Cecil Travis, Joe Judge, and Gil Hodges.

Bill

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Pete Browning (can't wait to see the Coach's Corner signatures of Browning, who couldn't write his name)


He could. He once angrily sent his signature to a newspaper as proof of his "literacy". Granted, Joe Jackson could do a better job, but you can still make out the full name. It's almost certain that no holographic material survived on Browning, however.

[Brian-Chidester]

After reading Donald Gropman's book, I can't help but lament how things went down with Happy Chandler. He seemed the most level-headed of all commissioners, with the least amount of axes to grind. His take on Shoeless Joe should have garnered greater consideration from later commissioners, as from Giamati onwards, these men have taken the path of least resistance, claiming largely that it is too old to dig up something decided upon so long ago.

What a bunch of wimps.

[Touch'EmAll]

I know he didn't play all that long. But he was the most spectacular sports figure of our generation, sorry M. Jordan. He was the most talented and gifted athlete of perhaps all-time.

If its "Fame" as in Hall of Fame you are after, then please, either Baseball or Football, or both, put in:

Mr. Bo Jackson

[Bornagaincollector]

There are some just names being mentioned,i will add 1 for consideration and opinions are welcomed.How about Albert Belle?His #'s are pretty darn good before he got hurt and he was robbed of the 95 MVP and 1995 was 1 of the best seasons overall for anyone in the last 25+ years.

[packs]

I wouldn't have any problem with Albert Belle being in. Ross Youngs died during his career, but he had a similarly short one. I can't think of any other players in the league who were in Belle's class besides Ken Griffey Jr and Frank Thomas at the time and they are both surefire HOFers.

[Anthony S.]

I'd let Albert Belle in if they unveiled his plaque during his acceptance speech and it read "Joey Belle." He'd probably start throwing the lighter HOFer's in attendance at the plaque. Good TV.

[Runscott]

I know he didn't play all that long. But he was the most spectacular sports figure of our generation, sorry M. Jordan. He was the most talented and gifted athlete of perhaps all-time.

If its "Fame" as in Hall of Fame you are after, then please, either Baseball or Football, or both, put in:

Mr. Bo Jackson

If there were a multi-sport HOF, he would be a shoe-in, but just for baseball...no way.

But...Ed Reulbach and Don Mattingly would make my HOF, and the ejected short list would be Phil Niekro, Phil Rizzuto, Pee Wee Reese or Don Sutton.

[Runscott]

I'd let Albert Belle in if they unveiled his plaque during his acceptance speech and it read "Joey Belle." He'd probably start throwing the lighter HOFer's in attendance at the plaque. Good TV.

His only problem is that he pissed off all the sports writers - they will never vote him in. To be on 'their' bad side and still get in, you actually have to be a qualified HOF'er, like Ted Williams.

[drc]

I don't think he's Hall worthy, but if you read his stats Belle had some years where he put up Ruthian numbers.

I also agree that Bo Jackson was great. I can't stand Deon Sanders' personality (Can anyone?), but he was a first team all-time great football player and a legit MLB baseball player. He would have had a fine MLB career if he'd did it full time. Again, I can't stand the guy, but he was one of the 4-5 best football players I've ever seen, and I've seen folks like Walter Payton and Lawrence Taylor.

[KNH]

Since the start of this thread there have been many names listed that we think should be in the HOF. My question is this:

Would you rather have 1 or 2 guys that may be deserving miss the hall of fame or have a couple dozen get in that maybe aren't deserving?

This is the HOF. It is not for the "very good" or the "could have done this if" players. There are way too many of those players mentioned. As previously stated. Let's not water it down.

[Edwolf1963]

Andy Stankiewicz

(Just kidding :D)

Seriously, didn't see Allie Reynolds on anyone's list. (I may have overlooked?) Always thought he deserved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allie_Reynolds

[Joe_G.]

There are several great players that deserve consideration, but one, that has unjustly been denied admission. I'm astonished that on a pre-war board his name wasn't mentioned with regularity, only finding his way onto a couple posts. In the 1870s, when the catcher's position was of utmost importance (make or break a team), he was the icon of the game. He then transitioned to 3rd base where he played very well. Championships followed him where ever he went. I challenge anyone to read the book "Catcher" by Peter Morris and not include <b>Deacon White</b> as your top choice as most deserving.

[bbcard1]

I'll have to look him up. Was just going through my 1961 Fleers this morning and reading stats, not fully comprehending Kiki Cuyler's induction, so I went and dug further on Wikipedia, SABR and Baseball-Reference. It's still not adding up, stats-wise, but with the Hall, it's not always about stats alone.

there was an interesting story going around at one time that Lloyd Waner was inducted into the HOF at least in part because his brother Paul's stats were inadvertently distributed to the old timers commitee....

[packs]

Ki Ki has a 321 career average with 2300 hits and led the league in stolen bases 4 times. Give the guy some credit.

[SteveMitchell]

A quick trip to http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cuyleki01.shtml reveals that Hazen Ki Ki Cuyler put up some outstanding career numbers, including: 2299 hits, 1305 runs, 394 doubles, 157 triples, 128 home runs, 1065 RBI, 328 stolen bases and 176 sacrifice hits on .321 career batting and .474 slugging averages.

The National Baseball Hall of Fame ought to honor the greatest of the game's all-time greats. As one of fewer than 300 players among the many thousands of athletes talented enough to claim the title of Major Leaguer, Ki Ki Cuyler stands among the greats on the basis of his considerable record.

Frankly, I used to wonder about a few of the men honored with plaques at Cooperstown, but Cuyler was never one of those. In the final analysis I think a convincing case can be made for each player in the Baseball Hall of Fame. The non-players are another matter for another time.

[Robextend]

I agree. There is no other retired player with as many at bats that have a higher career BA and is not in the Hall of Fame. Look no further than a .321 BA with over 7,000 at bats...his other stats are impressive as well.

[Brian-Chidester]

For an outfielder whose period was the post-deadball era of the 1920s and '30s, Kuyler struck me as a very good player, but like the Vada Pinsons or Domenic DiMaggios of their era, a solid case could be made that Kuyler was in no way dominant during his 15 years.

It took the Veteran's Committee to put him in there. I mean, hell, Don Mattingly had 2,100+ hits in 12 years, and at least six of those he was injured. I loved Donnie, but I don't think he is Hall worthy, and yes, a real case could be made that he was the most dominant hitter of the 1980s. I guess that's the beauty of this... we all get to have our opinion.

[Brian-Chidester]

As to the Albert Belle issue, I'm actually one of those who thinks he should be in the Hall. He had 381 home runs in less than 12 full seasons, during a great era for the Indians. As far as I know, there have been no accusations of steroids or enhancing drugs for Belle. His strikeouts were surprisingly low for a power hitter, his averages and RBIs were consistently great. Huge slugging percentages were great, and even a few 700+ at-bat years.

I remember seeing him playing in Reading with the Canton-Akron team in 1989 or '90. The crowd taunted him ridiculously all game. In the seventh or eighth inning, he hit a moon shot that they're still waiting to land. It was evident that he was going to be unbelievable.

[paul]

Someone mentioned Ray Schalk earlier. His induction used to make me scratch my head as well. But then I looked at his fielding stats, which are simply awesome. For a catcher, that seems important. Also, for what it's worth, his York Caramel card lists him as the greatest catcher ever.

[Brian-Chidester]

Catchers are judged differently, stats-wise. Dominance in their position is one that is considered pretty consistently by the writers.

[Robextend]

Someone mentioned Ray Schalk earlier. His induction used to make me scratch my head as well. But then I looked at his fielding stats, which are simply awesome. For a catcher, that seems important. Also, for what it's worth, his York Caramel card lists him as the greatest catcher ever.

I mentioned Schalk before, and not knowing a great deal about him I very well could have been wrong in my assessment. When analyzing a player I haven't seen most of the time I attach the caviat that it is hard for me to argue a borderline HOFer either way if I never saw them play.

[TheBig6]

I second Larry Corcoran, he was the Sandy Koufax of the 19th Century
Short Career ...5 monster years

[Runscott]

For an outfielder whose period was the post-deadball era of the 1920s and '30s, Kuyler struck me as a very good player, but like the Vada Pinsons or Domenic DiMaggios of their era, a solid case could be made that Kuyler was in no way dominant during his 15 years.

It took the Veteran's Committee to put him in there. I mean, hell, Don Mattingly had 2,100+ hits in 12 years, and at least six of those he was injured. I loved Donnie, but I don't think he is Hall worthy, and yes, a real case could be made that he was the most dominant hitter of the 1980s. I guess that's the beauty of this... we all get to have our opinion.

A personal test I use for players that were active when I was a kid: if I didn't get excited when I got their baseball card, while they were in their prime, why would I want them in the HOF? examples: Sutton, Niekro, Pinson... The same reasoning could be used for Bert "Be home by 11" Blyleven - no kid gave a flip about a Blyleven card, so no way he gets in the hall (from a kid's perspective). On the other hand, you wanted a Jim Rice or a Don Mattingly.

[prewarsports]

In the first 30-40 years of Baseball (1876-about 1915) defense was looked at with higher regard than offense. Hence we see a great deal of early Ballplayers who were considered the best players of their time by those who SAW them play and you can not equate that to stats.

In the 1890's for example if a player touched a baseball and did not record an out it went down as an error. That meant that the BEST Shortstops always led the league in erros for a while. Try translating that to stats by todays standards.

By contemporary accounts, the greatest all around player of the 19th century was Ned Williamson. People would look at his stats today and think it was a travesty that he was in. But if the Hall of Fame had started 30 years earlier, he would have been in its innagural class. Likewise, Bobby Wallace, Ray Schalk, Rabbit Maranville and Johnny Evers among others are not in the Hall for things you can simply evaluate on a piece of paper.

I always thought it was ironic that people will use Defense to keep you out of the Hall of Fame (Babe Herman, Pete Browning, and Edgar Martinez) but they will rarely use defense to justify your merits unless you are Ozzie Smith.

Rhys

[JrMacdaddy]

"Don Newcombe

Win–Loss record 149–90
Earned run average 3.56
Strikeouts 1,129

Career highlights and awards
4× All-Star selection (1949, 1950, 1951, 1955)
World Series... "

If you're going to give the argument that Newcombe should be in the HOF because he won a WS, shouldn't he have performed well in said World Series:

1949 23 BRO NL WS L NYY 0 2 .000 3.09
1955 29 BRO NL WS W NYY 0 1 .000 9.53
1956 30 BRO NL WS L NYY 0 1 .000 21.21
3 Seasons (3 Series) 0 4 .000 8.59 ERA

3 superb seasons and 2 good seasons do not make him a HOF'er.

[drdduet]

It's truly a shame that all the great defenders of the past--especially the pre-war era--are all but forgotten, as their greatness wasn't documented in the stats. Someone, truly great in the field and okay at bat, surely deserves the same/more attention as someone great at bat and okaypoor in the field.

Where have all the great catches gone? What did they look like? The great assists from the outfield? The amazing stabs, double plays, etc???

[GaryPassamonte]

Harry Stovey
Ross Barnes
Deacon White

[GaryPassamonte]

Also, Bill Dahlen.

[packs]

Haven't looked through every post but I hope someone mentioned Paul Hines.

[Brian-Chidester]

Gil Hodges. Talk about Joltin' Joe DiMaggio and the nation turning its lowly eyes to him... how about Brooklyn and Queens turning their lowly eyes to Gil Hodges, as a player with the Dodgers and a manager of the Mets? He was a cornerstone in giving the city what they never thought they'd see... twice.

[perezfan]

I think Hodges' name came up as much or more than any other in this thread. And I agree that he is (at this time) perhaps the most glaring omission. Stats just don't paint the entire picture. I really hope he gets in before too long...