Legendary T-206 Honus Wagner

[e107collector]

I got email today showing some of the highlights of Legendary's Feb 2010 auction, but they don't show a picture of the Honus Wagner T-206.

They have a pic of the D322 PSA 5 Wagner, and PSA Authentic T-206 Plank, but they just mention the T-206 Wagner. Does anyone know the grade of the Wagner?

Thanks,
Tony

[Bosox Blair]

Probably already gone...sportscardtheory traded for it already...:D

Cheers,
Blair

[e107collector]

I contacted Legendary today, and I was told "We don't know what grade the Wagner T-206 is."

I'm not sure what to make of that comment. Thoughts?

Tony

[tothrk]

It's most likely still being restored or refurbished or manufactured or fixed or.....

[calvindog]

I contacted Legendary today, and I was told "We don't know what grade the Wagner T-206 is."

I'm not sure what to make of that comment. Thoughts?

Tony

So they've got a consignment for a Wagner but don't know what the grade is. Yeah, that's believable. Is there something in the water over there that makes it impossible to tell the truth?

[Leon]

Well, I haven't spoken with Doug since the National and they aren't an advertiser....so with that out of the way, is there a chance they have it being graded and don't know the grade? Also, if they sent it in, maybe they were told a grade they aren't comfortable with and are discussing it with another third party grader. Communication is key and they haven't always done that too well.....:eek: ....and I agree, the truth is so easy....

[bijoem]

It's most likely still being restored or refurbished or manufactured or fixed or.....

hahaha. why commit to a number now?

maybe, like the stock market, a real-time ticker is needed for the grades of cards in the auction.

you never know when a grade will tick up.

[Jim VB]

So they've got a consignment for a Wagner but don't know what the grade is. Yeah, that's believable. Is there something in the water over there that makes it impossible to tell the truth?



Maybe some consignor, who might own two, or three, Wagners, has committed to consign one of them but hasn't decided which one to send in?

That could happen!

[calvindog]

Or someone is attempting to slip a Frankenstein Wagner past a grading company.

[Matt]

I contacted Legendary today, and I was told "We don't know what grade the Wagner T-206 is."


Too funny.

[E93]

When i e-mailed last week inquiring about it, I got a note saying it was not in the office yet.
JimB

[bijoem]

edited out. never mind.

[Orioles1954]

I don't see anything nefarious here, could very well be out at grading.

[barrysloate]

If you send a Wagner out to be graded, wouldn't you know the results within two hours?

[calvindog]

No, I'm sure the owner sent it in by regular mail with the $5, 20 day turnaround service.

[barrysloate]

Right, and in the box where it asks how much do you want the card to be insured, they wrote $75 so they could save on the grading fees.

[calvindog]

And Barry I'm sure that when Mastro/Legendary learned they would be receiving a Wagner for their auction they never bothered to ask the owner what the grade was. Must have slipped their collective mind.

[Matt]

I contacted Legendary today, and I was told "We don't know what grade the Wagner T-206 is."


Tony - did they say when they expected to know the grade?

[ctownboy]

Maybe Ray Rod, (Thevintagecardexpress2009) the trailer park trash from San Diego, got tired of messing around with people on this board, Craig's List and eBay and decided to screw around with the auction houses.

David

[Leon]

When i e-mailed last week inquiring about it, I got a note saying it was not in the office yet.
JimB

That has never stopped conspiracy theories before, why should it now? I mean, no doubt they have handled some things in not the best fashion (at least to me), but not every single thing they say or do is with criminal/fraudulent intent behind it. :o This board is great at exposing fraud but I just think sometimes we get a bit too carried away. I AM NOT defending anyone and thank goodness they don't advertise here or that too would be a conspiracy... :)

Maybe they should have said what more they knew about the card...such as

"we were told it's in the fr-gd range but won't know until we see it"....or something like that? That would have been a better answer but it's not my business.

[teetwoohsix]

David-that was funny :D

Ray Rod/Edwin/whoever the f%@# he is decides to go for the BIG FISH :D

Maybe someday he will figure out that it pays more to get a job and earn an honest paycheck..............:eek:

[bijoem]

I AM NOT defending anyone and thank goodness they don't advertise here or that too would be a conspiracy... :)


Leon -
everyone is a 'potential' advertiser.

so you will never be completely free from the conspiracy theories.

in addition, I was looking at an old film, and I think I may have seen you by the grassy knoll. :D

[Leon]

Leon -
everyone is a 'potential' advertiser.

so you will never be completely free from the conspiracy theories.

in addition, I was looking at an old film, and I think I may have seen you by the grassy knoll. :D

I remember the arguments about the advertising very well, from about 3 yrs ago. It's so difficult to prove/defend what will or won't happen in the future. I can say though, that for the 3 yrs of banners, I have never once protected an advertiser. That being said I was very close to the grassy knoll yesterday. I had a great meeting with a new technology prospect and it was in downtown Dallas, so I was there. I was only 2 mos. old when JFK got shot and hadn't quite learned how to shoot at that time. However, I do remember chewing on a toy pistol once.

[Leon]

Doug left me a voicemail today and simply said the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is. It's as simple as that.

[T206Collector]

Doug left me a voicemail today and simply said the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is. It's as simple as that.

A likely story. How can someone leave mail by voice? Doesn't make any sense. Seems really suspicious to me. And how do you know it was even Doug's voice? I suspect it was someone with a pro-Mastro/Legendary agenda just trying to come to the defense of the indefensible.

To quote an old friend of mine on Net54, "Yawn."

[calvindog]

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=98847

I'll be in Chicago next week on some business...maybe I can stop by Mastro and check the new Wagner out.

[Matt]

The grade drops:
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=106575&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1

"Disclosure: It must be clarified that, although past restoration has been largely reversed, as described, under no circumstances would a qualified grading service or knowledgeable collector ever deem this card to be anything but a restored or altered example. In no way does our description intend to imply that this collectible should be regarded as anything but an authentic "altered" card."

[calvindog]

Gee, I thought that Doug didn't know what the grade would be? Sure sounds like it was an "Authentic" all the way through. Sure took a long time to figure out that 'grade.'

[bijoem]

I'm not directing this at Legendary.... because I am guessing this was an owner's/consignor's decision....

But - why alter a card, for a second time, to make it look like it did before it was altered the first time?

Altering a card to get it to 'look' like it did before it was altered.....
seems ironic.

[teetwoohsix]

So if I understand correctly,they sent the altered/restored Wagner in to have the restoration work reversed,hoping the card would get at least some type of numerical grade,and when they sent it back in to be reviewed,it came back with the big "A" once again-please correct me if I got that wrong.
Wouldn't some collectors still want this Wagner-since it may cost less to obtain,fill the nearly "unfillable" spot in their collection,and at least know it is an "authentic" card?
I do not desire cards from the T206 set that are deemed authentic,but I may bend on this one :D

[e107collector]

Even tough they are tough cards, it seems wierd that the first 4 lots in the auction are all altered in some way.

Just my opinion.

Tony

[Matt]

Even tough they are tough cards, it seems wierd that the first 4 lots in the auction are all altered in some way.


Maybe all came from the same consignor?

[Anthony S.]

This may be my favorite sentence of the year. From the item description:

"....decades’-worth of private handling – doubtless incurred during the fulfillment of the card’s role as a prized family heirloom – took a natural toll on sharply cut edges and deeply inked surfaces."

[Matt]

But - why alter a card, for a second time, to make it look like it did before it was altered the first time?

I'd guess it was done to try and get it into a numbered holder.

[calvindog]

Some fraudsters are well-known for buying altered cards (or suspect memorabilia) at reduced prices with the hope that either a grader or the next sucker who buys it will believe it to be un-altered.

[bijoem]

I'd guess it was done to try and get it into a numbered holder.


Can any card that was once restored, with honest disclosure, make it into a numbered holder once the restoration was removed?

I wonder what the policy of the grading companies is on that.

[scooter729]

This may be my favorite sentence of the year. From the item description:

"....decades’-worth of private handling – doubtless incurred during the fulfillment of the card’s role as a prized family heirloom – took a natural toll on sharply cut edges and deeply inked surfaces."

In some auctions, a descriptive sentence like that could add $10K to the final hammer price.

[calvindog]

In some auctions, a descriptive sentence like that could add $10K to the final hammer price.

Throw in some flowery language and it might bump 50K.

[onlychild]

Can any card that was once restored, with honest disclosure, make it into a numbered holder once the restoration was removed?

Yes...absolutely. I have a great example as well, Auth to 3. Sometimes, to remove an alteration, added ink, stock etc, the card would need to be realtered to get a grade...especially higher than a 1.

It may bring up a good debate. Is removing heavy restoration work on a card altering it?

Can't understand this one though, it looked trimmed in the restored state. How could removing the restoration work change that? Seems it would go from Auth to Auth. Perhaps they were hoping for a 1. Realistically could it get any higher?

On a side note, an artist sketch displayed a Leon-looking guy seen in the grassy knoll. Humm...and he lives in Texas? Then again (from sketch) he could be Keyser Soze.

Kevin Saucier
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[bijoem]

Yes...absolutely. I have a great example as well, Auth to 3. Sometimes, to remove an alteration, added ink, stock etc, the card would need to be realtered to get a grade...especially higher than a 1.

It may bring up a good debate. Is removing heavy restoration work on a card altering it?


Kevin.... when your card was resubmitted - was the prior alteration, and the new 'removing restoration' disclosed?

I have no doubt that grading companies can be fooled.... I am just wondering what their official policy is if all is told to them. If restoration is removed - are graders okay with possibly giving it a number grade?

[barrysloate]

Yes, removing restoration would be a form of altering.

If you gain weight and let out your pants, then lose weight and have them tapered again, you've altered them twice. Doesn't matter which direction you go.

[Leon]

I was never on the grassy knoll on Dallas. I lived in Houston at the time Kennedy was assasinated. I think I was about 1.

As for this Wagner....at least there is enough of a description that anyone bidding on it knows exactly where it stands today. That is a heck of a lot more than I can say about some other high value cards I have seen sold....best regards

[onlychild]

Kevin.... when your card was resubmitted - was the prior alteration, and the new 'removing restoration' disclosed?

I have no doubt that grading companies can be fooled.... I am just wondering what their official policy is if all is told to them. If restoration is removed - are graders okay with possibly giving it a number grade?

Good question. No it was not disclosed. The restoration (or alteration) was found out by mistake. It was soaking and a rebuilt corner just fell off, this was of course, fascinating. It had already been rejected as evidence of trimming (not by me), if I'm not mistaken. Seems the two edges had been trimmed back (ever so slightly) to accommodate the rebuilt material.

I set aside the rebuilt material, trimmed and reshaped the bottom and side edges as well as and new corner to blend with the missing stock. It was sent in for grading as an experiment and came back a 3. It's currently on my website with a disclosure.

It is my opinion that removing a restoration with nothing else being done, would be in fact, be altering the card once again. I can't imagine that a grading company would think any differently if it were to be disclosed.

Yes, at least there has been full disclosure with the Wagner but I can see where it would raise some other debatable questions.


Kevin Saucier
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[batsballsbases]

Its amazing in reading the description I think the 2 best lines are
1) "The item underwent a measure of careful and professional restoration"

2) " The restorers work consisted primarily of inpainting to hide paper loss,subdue creases,and compensate for the erosion of ink pigmantation"

I do give them credit for at least stating in the description that the card is altered but boy an academy award should be given to the writer of this description:eek::eek:or at the very least he should be given 5K on the final hammer price for that prolific style of writing!:D:D Can you say lipstick on a pig.;);)

[calvindog]

I just have one question to ask: what kind of malevolent jackass would screw around and alter a 75K card?

[chaddurbin]

A+ to legendary for being upfront with full disclosure of all the restorations dating back to the 80's...even tho doug wasn't sure of the card's would be grade a month ago.

where can i read the description in case it made into a 1 holder? :rolleyes:

[calvindog]

Or someone is attempting to slip a Frankenstein Wagner past a grading company.

Hey, I wonder who guessed this a month ago?

And Leon claimed Doug left a voicemail saying "that the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is."

I thought they knew it was "Authentic"? Isn't that what the item's description says? Why would Doug claim that he didn't know what the grade would be when he apparently knew it before sending it in to PSA?

When you consider Mastro/Legendary/Doug Allen always presume the worst -- and you'll usually be right.

Edited to add: Quan, exactly.

[batsballsbases]

Jeff,
I was going to say the same thing! Why would you do that to one of the grails of the hobby. I believe the card would have done much better without all that work. But I guess the same question could be asked about the Plank! But I guess we can save that story for another day!:D:D

[Exhibitman]

Hey, I wonder who guessed this a month ago?

And Leon claimed Doug left a voicemail saying "that the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is."

I thought they knew it was "Authentic"? Isn't that what the item's description says? Why would Doug claim that he didn't know what the grade would be when he apparently knew it before sending it in to PSA?

When you consider Mastro/Legendary/Doug Allen always presume the worst -- and you'll usually be right.

Edited to add: Quan, exactly.

Better save that voice mail...I feel a subpoena coming on...

[calvindog]

In the spirit of Mastro/Legendary record retention policy I would expect the voicemail to be 'lost.'

[Exhibitman]

In the spirit of Mastro/Legendary record retention policy I would expect the voicemail to be 'lost.'

Nooooo...the buyer just didn't pay for it before they sent it out. You'll get it Monday when GAI re-opens...Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Doug left me a voicemail today and simply said the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is. It's as simple as that.

:D:D

[Leon]

:D:D

My guess, and this really is a guess as I don't know for sure, is that they were hoping to get a grade after the restoration was removed. Not all of it could be removed so it stayed in an AUT holder.

Now ya'll can continue in your "once upon a time" fairyland.....BTW, I wonder how much Jeff is paying to represent Dave? :D:D:D.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Disclosure: It must be clarified that, although past restoration has been largely reversed, as described, under no circumstances would a qualified grading service or knowledgeable collector ever deem this card to be anything but a restored or altered example. In no way does our description intend to imply that this collectible should be regarded as anything but an authentic "altered" card."

:D:D

[Leon]

"Disclosure: It must be clarified that, although past restoration has been largely reversed, as described, under no circumstances would a qualified grading service or knowledgeable collector ever deem this card to be anything but a restored or altered example. In no way does our description intend to imply that this collectible should be regarded as anything but an authentic "altered" card."

:D:D

ok...so why quote this Peter? This was written after it was back to AUT....I guess I am missing your conspiracy theory on this one?

[three25hits]

Why on earth is everyone questioning this fine company's motivation?

[Rob D.]

Dang it, in the pool I had before 5 p.m. for the first mention of a conspiracy theory. Just missed.

[Leon]

Dang it, in the pool I had before 5 p.m. for the first mention of a conspiracy theory. Just missed.

Rob- you still win...it's only 4pm CST!@!

[Rob D.]

I entered the east coast pool.

[Leon]

where can i read the description in case it made into a 1 holder? :rolleyes:


I think it's in the same chapter about me protecting banner advertisers :cool:.

[Peter_Spaeth]

ok...so why quote this Peter? This was written after it was back to AUT....I guess I am missing your conspiracy theory on this one?

The disclosure statement clearly suggests there would NEVER have been a reasonable hope of getting a numerical grade. Yet he (apparently) sent it in hoping for one.

[batsballsbases]

Leon,
I read that book also! I believe the next line was "Do on to others but never let it be done to me" :D A quote from the mastro handbook;);)

[barrysloate]

If the card came back graded a 2, would we have been given the same details about its past?

[calvindog]

The disclosure statement clearly suggests there would NEVER have been a reasonable hope of getting a numerical grade. Yet he (apparently) sent it in hoping for one.

Oh, so now you're saying that those are inconsistent assertions? Peter, give it a rest, next you're going to say that the moon is made of green cheese.

This exchange reminds me of when a woman comes home to find her husband in bed with another woman. She screams at him, "how could you do that to me!" Her husband, with the woman still on top of him says to his wife: "honey, what are you talking about? Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?"

Seriously, have you ever seen a hobby/business where we are asked to willingly suspend disbelief so often? Where obvious lies and transparent excuses and coverups are so often thrown around with almost no concern at all?

[three25hits]

If the card came back graded a 2, would we have been given the same details about its past?

You're a conspiracist too?

[batsballsbases]

Barry,
I would have to say yes and the only reason I would say this is because I believe so many people knew about this card that if they tried to pass it off as anything but they would have lost every bit of respectability they have been trying to rebuild.

[barrysloate]

I'm just naturally skeptical.;)

[barrysloate]

Hi Al- hopefully you're correct. I agree they probably would have, but this is a funny hobby. Anything goes.

[batsballsbases]

Barry,
I guess the bottom line with all auction houses( let me correct that and say most) is that anyone who bids on very high end items needs to do as much homework on that item as possible. In the case of this wagner even a piss poor one will probably cost you lets say for arguement 20-40 thousand. Now the real question comes.Is someone willing to fork up lets say 100 thousand for this one that had now been altered? And as we now its stated right there for all to see. Altered can be a funny word as we know the Gretsky Wagner for years has been sited as being trimmed but yet as we know what the last price that card sold for. Bottom line is with something like this there is going to be a very limited amount of people who can bid on this card anyway. I believe if you really want a wagner there will be someone out there willing to put aside the "altered" word and buy it.

[Bosox Blair]

The disclosure statement clearly suggests there would NEVER have been a reasonable hope of getting a numerical grade. Yet he (apparently) sent it in hoping for one.

I'm certainly not about to apologize for these guys - and I would never, ever bid in one of their auctions (and I have not), but it does seem possible that the card was sent in to be deemed authentic...probably an important factor to a bidder looking at shelling out tens of thousands of dollars - knowing it is not a fake. And along the same line, one might say they didn't want to talk about the grade until PSA officially deemed the card authentic.

Cheers,
Blair

[Exhibitman]

You're a conspiracist too?

Conspiracist? Obviously, you're an anti-conspirite! :D

[dstudeba]

Sorry Blair, but I doubt that Legendary doesn't have (or believe they have) the in house expertise to tell if it was a fake or not. If they thought there was a chance it was a fake they wouldn't have put it in their press release.

If it came back in a 2 holder they might very well have disclosed the history of the card. However what is the point of doing the work to get it in a 2 holder if you intend to disclose that it is an AUT?

[JP]

Anybody amazed by how weak the lots they are offering are? Legendary appears to be struggling...

[e107collector]

JP,

I agree with the weak lots. There seems to be more non-sports, photos, and americana than cards. Very disappointed.

Tony

[Bosox Blair]

Sorry Blair, but I doubt that Legendary doesn't have (or believe they have) the in house expertise to tell if it was a fake or not.

I'm sure you are right, but the expectations of buyers are changing now. Clearly, this same card changed hands in the past on the basis only of a description and explanation by the seller. But today, if a card of this value isn't in a PSA or SGC holder, buyers think it must have been rejected by the grading companies (I've seen many such comments on this very Board).

With a "Franken-Wagner" like this, I think it makes a lot of sense as an auctioneer to have one of the big graders agree that the card under all that junk is actually an authentic Wagner.

Cheers,
Blair

[scottglevy]

I know that I am a very small fish....but the fact that I won't bid in any Legendary auction (and I respect them only marginally more than coaches corner) is indicative of how much damage they've caused to their reputation and therefore their brand and auction.

I suspect that some people may be able to find bargains there ... but I won't be looking.

Regards,
Scott

[Jim VB]

I know that I am a very small fish....but the fact that I won't bid in any Legendary auction (and I respect them only marginally more than coaches corner) is indicative of how much damage they've caused to their reputation and therefore their brand and auction.

I suspect that some people may be able to find bargains there ... but I won't be looking.

Regards,
Scott



Wow, Scott! I know you don't say that lightly.

What if they changed the name of the company again? Would that make it OK?


:rolleyes:

[Leon]

Generally there is a policy against posting emails but Doug asked me to post this for him in order to get the facts straight from him, concerning the Wagner card. He won't be responding in this thread. I can't say I blame him too much. He invited anyone that would like to go see the card to contact them and it can be done. That being said here is the email.

From: dallen@legendaryauctions.com [mailto:dallen@legendaryauctions.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 8:37 PM
To: leonl@flash.net
Subject: Clarification on Lot #1

Hey Leon,
Someone recently pointed out to me some comments made on Net54 regarding the T206 Wagner card. Although anyone who is interested in the card can call me directly or email me I thought it appropriate to clarify a few things:

#1�This card was never submitted for grading. I personally called Joe Orlando and told him that I would be overnighting a card to be considered for an Authentic/Altered holder. He can verify this.
#2 After being sold approximately 10 years ago the buyer of the card chose to have the restoration on the card reversed. This was not done to get it graded. He just thought that from an investment standpoint someone would prefer to have the unnatural restoration reversed. Funny thing is when he sold it a year or so later it went for about the same money!
#3 When I told you I did not know thecondition of the card it was because I had never personally seen the card. When the card arrived at the office I was out of town. I asked one of my employees to take the card to a conservationist to provide us feedback as to what vestiges of restoration remained on the card after the restoration was reversed. It is a significant card and I wanted a professional to look at the card so that we could properly describe it. It was based on their review that we identified the restoration that remained.�Anyone with any hobby experience can tell that the card has been altered. That was not a question. I felt the precise extent of the restoration was important. �

The bottom line is I can't imagine what more we could have done here. I am open to suggestions. We have described the history of the card even showing pictures of it when it was restored. We took great effort to make sure our description of what restoration remained was properly described and we emphatically state that this card will never get into a holder. Again I am open to suggestions.

All the best,
Doug

[bijoem]

Doug....

Since you are asking for suggestions.....

The first suggestion I would have is - - when someone calls you about the condition of a T206 Wagner that you know is altered (whether you personally saw the card or not)......

A great answer would be "it is altered" as opposed to "I don't know".

[batsballsbases]

Leon,
As I first stated I believe Doug was very honest with there description of the card.(maybe a little to descriptive) But that all comes with trying to get your client the most for their item. I also said that I believe the card will sell even with all the "alterations" that were done with it. I to believe in the statement Jeff L made why would anyone want to alter this card anyway. The best you could have hoped for is a 2 given the condition it was in without the changes. In my mind I think it really lowered the value of it now given the nature of all that has come out about the card. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens. As for Legendary auctions I have bid in all the major auctions and Legendary is no exception,if there is an item I like I set a limit and if it exceeds that limit Im done. But I guess it should be a lesson to all auction houses if you want to play games just be ready when it hits the fan ! Because it comes back at you rather hard.

[calvindog]

You would need the Rosetta Stone and a polygraph machine to ever get the truth out of Doug Allen.

[Kenny Cole]

LOL, but the Rosetta Stone is a fabrication and polygraphs don't often, if ever, reveal the truth. Isn't that the basic theory underlying why all you criminal defense lawyers generally move to get them excluded? :-)

[batsballsbases]

Jeff,Jeff,Jeff
Didnt your mother tell you play nice with the other children!:D:D:D

[Anthony S.]

Um, when did the Rosetta Stone become a fabrication?

[calvindog]

LOL, but the Rosetta Stone is a fabrication and polygraphs don't often, if ever, reveal the truth. Isn't that the basic theory underlying why all you criminal defense lawyers generally move to get them excluded? :-)

They're inadmissible in criminal cases so Doug should be ok with it.

[Kenny Cole]

You are correct, my bad. I was thinking of something else,

[Kenny Cole]

They are sometimes admissible in civil cases. It's kind of funny to watch an insurance company, which has done an examination under oath and had the insured undergo a polygraph, move to exclude the test it wanted done because the results weren't as hoped for.

[batsballsbases]

Well it looks like all the altering didnt effect the price The card opened and is now at 110,000.;);)