How Important Is Provenance To You?

[Tsaiko]

It's been over 50 years since a relative handed down their baseball cards and other memoribilia to me. I've treasured these beautiful cards and memoribilia for the longest time and have finally decided to sell most of them. My family pleaded with me to sell them in the '60's, but the sentimental value far outweighed the monetary value, so I have held on to these for all this time. I had forgot that I had stashed the bulk of the cards in my childhood home. I have just found a treaure trove of cards while moving my mom into an assisted living situation.

Most of the cards that I have personally carried with me were sold recently. There were three offers made for almost the entire collection, and feeling like I was losing a part of me, I turned them all down. Eventually one of the bidders almost doubled their offer and I couldn't refuse. I've spent a lot of time researching each and every card (a lot of the info and related sites I have learned from this forum, so thanks), so I know I got a really good offer. After the deal was done, I asked the new owner why they offered so much and the answer was provenance. It was because they knew that these cards were never circulated or traded and that they knew the circumstances and the history of the original collector and that made my collection more desirable to them.

So I'm really curious to know if provenance is important to other collectors and if they would pay more for a card if they knew the exact, short, and possibly interesting history of a particular card. If the person who bought the collection is reading this, I didn't remember these other cards I had stashed, so when I said that was the whole collection I was not trying to be deceitful and will certaintly contact you before anything else gets offered.

So, provenance, important or you couldn't care less?

Thanks,

[ethicsprof]

The Lionel Carter and Nagy provenance have mattered a great deal in my type collecting. I have several of their E, T206, and T204 cards framed for my office.

best,
barry

[barrysloate]

There are so many trimmed and altered cards in the marketplace that collectors will always be willing to pay a premium for an original collection, especially one that has never been in the hobby before. That is true in all areas of collecting; fresh to the market is worth more than material that has been around.

[T206Collector]

I called Lionel Carter up on the phone after I got this one and talked to him about it. It really enhanced my appreciation for what I have.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/vQgdcfP1v8VowzOpc8lpJw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/Rro7PLIOUrI/AAAAAAAABCE/ing6Ej1hPh4/s800/Plank%20SGC%2010.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/pmifsud3d/SGCGradedCards?feat=embedwebsite">SGC Graded Cards</a></td></tr></table>

And with autographs, provenance is extremely valuable. That is why a signed T206 card from the Jeff Morey collection, like this Clarke below, will always be more valuable to me than one that was signed for a complete stranger.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/i7qEXppIWsT4lflkN0jq0A?authkey=Gv1sRgCNHhgMuiptWNc g&feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/SpiDhp42j4I/AAAAAAAAHNQ/M8gZjwJNV4M/s800/image0-1.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/pmifsud3d/AutographedT206?authkey=Gv1sRgCNHhgMuiptWNcg&feat=embedwebsite">Autographed T206</a></td></tr></table>

[tbob]

I think cards with a provenance of Barker, Nagy and Carter do, and should, command a premium because they were pioneers in our hobby but I do not really recognize the provenance of any other cards I buy. I agree with Barry that it is nice to get cards which come from "finds" because the chances of alteration or tampering is negligible but it really doesn't matter to me otherwise where the cards came from.

[Leon]

For me the higher the grade of pre-war card the more important the provenance is. Ask any collector that has been collecting cards for 25-30 yrs and they will tell you that there is no way this many "minty" looking cards were around back in the day. Of course the argument about how the prices have brought them out comes up, and this and that, and....more excuses and theories. If your provenance leads you to "rawoysterman" on ebay, or Ohio in general, you might want to run the other way :). For me, provenance on mid grade cards isn't all that important. Provenance on memorabilia and autographs is extremely important....all imho....regards

[scgaynor]

Provenance will mean more as the hobby matures. This is still a young hobby relative to other areas of collecting (coins, stamps, etc) where provenance actually means something. Right now provenance is more of a curiosity, but as technology gets better and items are easier to fake and alter, Provenance will be key.

Scott

[bijoem]

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.

[jcmtiger]

Certainly buying a collection such as yours would be easier than buying cards on ebay that have traveled through multiple owners. I bought many collections in the 70's and 80's boxed up, in metal cabinets or in dresser drawers. I was pretty certain that these cards were not messed with, trimmed, colored or whatever happens sometimes. And as Leon points out, there were not that many Mint cards in those collections.

Joe

[kkkkandp]

There might be a certain novelty to being able to say that a hobby pioneer owned the cards before me (I have a couple of Old Judges with Buck Barker's chicken-scratch notes on the back), but that can work to the detriment of the value of the card as well (for those people who care about those things). In addition to writing on the card it was not uncommon for some of those guys to trim them to fit into "standard" holders, so the purists of today might even shun those items.

[Wesley]

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.


It makes hardly a difference to me as well.

[Rob D.]

When I bought my E93 Lajoie from Josh K., he offered me an example that was graded a bit higher and was centered slightly better, but I wanted the (technically) lower-condition one because it was slabbed as being from the Nagy Collection. So when the provenance traces back to one of the hobby pioneers, it means something to me.

Following up on what Leon implied regarding provenance being able to provide assurance that cards haven't been altered, I have a beautiful T206 from the Lionel Carter collection (below) that SGC deemed trimmed. I know there were a number of T206s from his collection that also were graded that way. Of course that doesn't mean he trimmed them, and the likely scenario is he received them that way, but it serves as a caution that provenance &mdash; no matter where it leads to &mdash; isn't a 100 percent guarantee of much of anything.

[oldjudge]

Used to be very important to me, but now I drive to Boston through Hartford so I bypass it entirely.

[Bamacollection]

SGC carries all the "provenance" I need. Although, I do have a couple cards from Nagy and Carter collections, I wouldn't hesitate to crack them out if I thought they would upgrade. The "Galloway" collection is the only collection to me.

[ChiefBenderForever]

I think it's really special to get a collection straight from the person who bought them in packs or inherited them from family untouched by anyone else. I was lucky to get a 34 Goudey collection from an old man who bought them as a kid and I kept thinking about how he kept them all those years and then I got them and no one else ever touched them, until I sold them all to Toby.

[Anthony S.]

As most of us know, if the old-time collector kept his T and E cards in those older style 16 pocket sheets, he may well have trimmed some of them so that they could fit in the pockets. It's the quaint style of trimming as opposed to the modern deceptive variety.

[Abravefan11]

Similar to Rob D., I had a technically higher graded M116 that I downgraded because I was able to pick up the same card from the Carter collection.

I now have 4 of the 16 M116 Boston National players from the Carter collection. It's a long shot but I would hope to one day get 16 of them back together.

I enjoy owning even just a small piece of this historic collection.

[barrysloate]

Good one Jay...at least I got it.;)

[birdman42]

To me, provenance is like curb appeal on a card. It might not make me want to pay any more for the item, but it might lead me to choose the one with provenance over one without. (Assuming that there's more than one of the item to begin with.)

If you're talking about a "name" collection, such as Carter or Barker, then the provenance will stick with the item. But, to use the Johnnyharmonica example, the provenance can disappear pretty quickly. What's Toby's buyer of those '34 Goudeys going to say? I bought this from a guy who bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy... Right.

When I was in the coin business in the early '80s, Bowers & Ruddy brought the Garrett collection to market. There was a huge to-do, including a pair of books using the collection to trace the history of US coins. There have been many other named collections of either coins or stamps. While much gets made of the high dollar value realized at auction, lots of that value comes from what it is, and not very much comes from the provenance.

Yes, I know our Howe McCormick collector is willing to pay a little extra to get those cards. And, as some others have said, provenance might give you a little comfort when it comes to authenticity--for which you may be willing to pay a premium. Still, in the end, provenance is a good conversation starter, but you can't really take it to the bank.

Bill

[drc]

For many non-card items, provenance is very important. For example, if a game used jersey has documented provenance it came from the team, that helps prove authenticity and raises the price.

[barrysloate]

I viewed the Garrett Collection in person and held one of the Brasher Dubloons...and I have a first edition of David Bowers book about the collection.

[ullmandds]

Provenance with most mainstream cards is slightly appealing to me. As a historian...I love to research things...and owning cards once owned/collected by the founding fathers of this great hobby certainly has appeal to me. Similarly...I love seeing and holding cards that are fresh to the hobby. With autographs this is of paramount importance...but I don't pay for autographs!

I may pay a premium for cards slabbed w/Buck Barker or others' names...certainly not Mr. X though! I much prefer raw cards to slabs anyway...and without the slab...the provenance disappears!

[Orioles1954]

Anyone is invited to view the illustrious "Feagin" collection anytime they're in Central Maryland. Will only take 2-3 minutes of your time :)

[HRBAKER]

Nice to have a card that is associated with a hobby pioneer, but like a few others stated who owned a card before means nothing to me.

........and James, I am proud to own a few former members of "The Feagin Collection."

[sox1903wschamp]

Similar to Rob D., I had a technically higher graded M116 that I downgraded because I was able to pick up the same card from the Carter collection.

I now have 4 of the 16 M116 Boston National players from the Carter collection. It's a long shot but I would hope to one day get 16 of them back together.

I enjoy owning even just a small piece of this historic collection.

Agree with Rob and Tim Completly.

I have 6 of the M116 Boston American players from Lionel and would love to put the Red Sox subset back intact even if it means selling off better graded cards. I also have a few Boston American Caramels, Ramly's and M101-4/5 cards from him.

IMO, Lionel Carter is what collecting is all about and a true pioneer. I know there are some that do not care but I like having cards that he owned in my collection.

[101SOX19]

Provenance does mean something to me. I was fortunate enough to attend a session of the Barry Halper auction (knowing full well I couldn't afford anything in the auction), just to get the catalog and the bidding paddle.

A certain dealer bought several of the rarer vintage card lots from the Halper auction. The next month in his catalog, I saw a 1911 Baseball Bats card from the Halper auction that fit my collection and I jumped at the chance to acquire something from the sale. An average baseball fan or collector may not know the names of Nagy or Carter, but you bring up the name of Barry Halper and a lot more people will recall the name and/or the collection.

10 years later, many auction houses still reference if a piece of memorabilia originated from the Halper collection, but I don't know how many of the cards from his collection can be traced back?

[Tsaiko]

Thanks for all the informative posts and opinions guys. Really thought provoking. I had to look up Carter, Nagy, Halper and the others, wow.

My cards were collected directly from the cigarette packs, by a very special (to me anyway) lover and player of the game of baseball.

I appreciate this hobby more today than I did yesterday - thanks.

@oldjudge - Too funny...........and I know that route well, or used to.

[Rich Klein]

Importance in the future.

Rich

[HRBAKER]

It will be interesting to see since so few of the "cards" in total have any discernable provenance.

[ValKehl]

I am a Walter Johnson card collector. A few years ago, when Hank Thomas, WJ's grandson and a really nice guy, decided to sell the WJ cards he had collected, I purchased a good number of them for my collection. Even though these cards aren't "labeled" in any way (or slabbed), the Texas Tommy and other WJs I got from Hank will always be extra special to me!

[tbob]

James- you might find it amusing that I have two Tattoo Orbit sets one with a Dale Alexander slabbed from Lionel Carter's collection and one Alexander slabbed from the James Feagin collection :-)
tbob

[drc]

A lot of it depends what is the provenance. If a T206 Ty Cobb belonged to Ty Cobb I bet most people here would pay more for it.

[E93]

I like it, particularly knowing they were collected from the packs by one of the pioneers of the hobby. These were among the cards that turned him onto baseball cards.
JimB

<a href='http://img20.imageshack.us/i/1933delong7gerhigsgc40.jpg/'><img src='http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8213/1933delong7gerhigsgc40.jpg' border='0' alt='Image Hosted by ImageShack.us'/></a><br/> <a href='http://img269.imageshack.us/i/1933delong21foxxsgc50.jpg/'><img src='http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8458/1933delong21foxxsgc50.jpg' border='0' alt='Image Hosted by ImageShack.us'/></a><br/>

[Fred]

I think provenance is an enhancer to a card. I never really understood the Mr. X psa thing though.

What about cards that have come out of collections such as the "Oregon Find"? I think a collection like that (even though the collector was basically unknown) is special in its own right. Speaking of which, I'm not outing anything here but look at the following card:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360218394170&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I think it's from the "Oregon Find". The tell tale signs are the two adhesive marks on the back of the card. It would have been interesting if Dave would have had these cards slabbed with an "Oregon Find" provenance label from SGC. I guess this is before slabbing companies started to do that. By the way, which is the first collection of cards to be given a provenance status on the a flip of slab? Was it the "Harris Collection" by PSA?

[quinnsryche]

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.

I agree 100%

[Jay Wolt]

Here's one of my favorite cards w/ provenance

http://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/1252096012.jpg

[thegashousegang]

For me (a generally low to mid-grade collector), part of collecting is the 'travel' a card or item takes before it arrives in my hands. Since I can't afford high grade, I'm not overly concerned about a card being altered...unless it's clear that it has been altered only to fetch a higher price. It would depend on who did own a card previously to warrant a higher price. But for other items, like postcards, I really get a kick out of purchasing something with some handwritten notes on the back (stats, notes about a game, etc).

[chaddurbin]

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.

+100...often overblown, overhyped, and over-premiumed!

[jmk59]

I think there are two different kinds of provenance. One is the "noted collector" provenance where someone wants a card b/c it is identified as having been in the collection of Nagy, Carter, etc. It doesn't really matter where the cards were *before* getting to the famous collector (note that some of these famous collections included trimmed cards). What matters is that the card can be conclusively identified as once having belonged to a famous collector.

This kind of provenance matters to some, not others.

The second kind of provenance is anonymous but may tell you something about the state, history or path of the card. You can have a raw card that has been through a long chain of "bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy", as noted above. Or you can have a card or collection that has been in a book on the end table or desk of someone who got it from his dad who personally collected the cards as a smoker at the turn of the century. So you know that the card has had two owners and is probably not trimmed (unless obviously to fit in a scrapbook or something).

I think people do care about the anonymous provenance that is short and easy to know b/c there are only one or two people in the whole chain going back to manufacture.

So ... I guess the answer to the question also depends on what kind of provenance is in play.

Joann

[barrysloate]

Joann nailed it and I think the original post was not about which famous collector may or may not have been the previous owner of a card. The more important provenance concerns original owner collections that are fresh to the market, and therefore are most likely not tampered with. Every collector should be willing to pay a premium for collections like those.

[Leon]

Joann nailed it and I think the original post was not about which famous collector may or may not have been the previous owner of a card. The more important provenance concerns original owner collections that are fresh to the market, and therefore are most likely not tampered with. Every collector should be willing to pay a premium for collections like those.

I only pay premiums for penultimate cards!!!

On a more serious note it was really fun and interesting to go through the collection of Trucker Boy's grandad's 750+ cards that were collected in the 1910's. Basically, since they were inherited from his grandad, I was getting them from the person who collected them out of the packs and original venues. Going over them with Mark M., as I opened each package, I was being told what to look for. There were different groups of cards collected together and these fit that mark perfectly.

[Al C.risafulli]

For me, it's something that has value, but not in every case.

I own a couple of those Casey Stengel Mayos that Jay showed earlier today - Clarkson, Rusie and Duffy, I believe. When they became available, they were perfect because I have a large collection of Casey Stengel correspondence from the early 1900s through 1975. Owning a few of his baseball cards was a nice addition to the collection.

I also have an Eddie Collins cabinet that was owned by Collins, and a Joe Tinker cabinet that was owned by Barry Halper.

Eventually I'll pick up a Nagy and a Carter, just to have cards that were owned by those guys.

What I REALLY would like, though, more than any other card I could possibly own, would be one - just one - example of one of Lionel Carter's 1938 Goudeys. The idea of owning a card that was pulled out of a pack of my favorite set in 1938, then put away for 70 years, is just mind-boggling to me. Want.

-Al

[ethicsprof]

I hear you, buddy, about Carter and the Goudey.
And I'm pulling for you.
all the best for the holidays,
barry

[Al C.risafulli]

Thanks, Barry, and best wishes to you as well.

Unfortunately I don't think that set will ever be broken up. It was purchased by Scott Ireland, and I thought at first that he might combine the best of the Carter set with the best of the set that he had been building, but unfortunately that didn't turn out to be the case.

It was such a beautiful and pristine set that it's best for the hobby to keep the whole thing together, but boy, I'd love to have just one.

-Al

[calvindog]

I couldn't care less who owned a card before me.

It means zero to me.

I beg to differ. I know that if a card is previously owned by Joe D there is a high likelihood I will want it.

[bijoem]

I beg to differ. I know that if a card is previously owned by Joe D there is a high likelihood I will want it.



I knew you would come around!

http://www.internetville.com/images/albums/userpics/taddy3.jpg

[oaks1912]

As Leon suggested above, finding one true "outside the hobby" card collection is an eye opener. Finding three such collections is more valuable than a pallet of SMR's. In many cases it doesn't so much matter who has handled them before as much as who HASN'T handled them before :eek:....... With memorabilia, provenance is helpful, but not definitive. One need only visit the GUU Forum to understand the problems associated with many "Team issued" COA's. Experience and a network of knowledgeable, trustworthy and reliable friends is your best bet in any collecting field.....:)