Need Help Identifying RPPC

[DixieBaseball]

Calling all Cleveland Naps or RPPC Experts :

If anyone can offer up any opinions on the year this was taken, what team, etc. I would appreciate any comments. I believe I have identified the player as Harry Bay, but not real sure this is from his Cleveland days of 02-07. It may be from his later minor league playing days of 08-11. (Harry is depicted in T206 set with Nashville) Maybe the outfield wall can lend a clue. (309 ft) There is no markings on the uni of any kind. The Real Photo Post Card was sold as Unknown Minor League player and possibly some RPPC expert can tell by the date on the reverse/company, etc.
Thanks for any opinions -

[fkw]

I know it doesnt help much in pinpointing a year....That Cyko back is said to be from 1904-1920s

http://www.playle.com/realphoto/photoc.php?PHPSESSID=4dckvkc6790efgsfte689t77l6

I have a couple Babe Ruth PC with the same stampbox.

http://centuryoldcards.com/images/1929cykoruthpc2.jpg

[bmarlowe1]

It's a nice photo - but it definitely is not Harry Bay.

1) The tip of Bay's nose is very broad - the nose tip of the guy in your photo is much more pointy

2) Bay has a pretty much horizontal crease across his chin. The player in your photo has a crease with sort of an inverted "U" shape.

3) Compare the size of the right ear (viewer's left) of your guy with that of Bay in the photo below left - your guy's ear is clearly too big.

Either one of these is alone enough to show that he is not Bay. There are other mismatches - but these are the most easily seen.

"Unknown minor league player" sounds right.

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks Frank for Identifying the Brand of PC... That is helpful.

BMarlowe - Thanks for your opinion, but I still respectfully disagree as I don't think it is as obvious as you say... The RPPC is further away than your up close mug shots which look a bit different themselves and one is pretty grainy and they are both shot at angle. If you look closely at the RPPC, he has a horizontal line across the chin, and his ears both flap outward and up just like the mug shots and I don't agree that his ears are much larger. I do think the ears might be larger, but the angle of the mug shots don't lend themselves to really compare size in my opinion. They lend more on the direction of the ears that point out and up. As far as his nose, I believe that is b/c the photo is far away. Bring it in as a mug shot and it becomes a bigger nose like the mug shots.(Even the mug shots show a pointy nose that gets big at the bottom) I do appreciate your opinion, but I don't think anything is that conclusive. It may not be Harry Bay, but it sure does look like him and the close beaty eyes, outward flapping ears, small mouth, horizontal line on chin, all tell me it looks more like him than not. It might be his cousin, Larry Ray...

[bmarlowe1]

Jeremy - nothing you have said makes any sense. I can't help you if you can't see the difference between a horizontal line and an upside down "U". The chin structure of these 2 guys is overall very different - I just picked up on the most easily seen characteristic. There is nothing about the angle of the left photo I posted and your photo that would make Bay's right ear look smaller in mine than on yours.

>>"The RPPC is further away than your up close mug shots...Bring it in as a mug shot and it becomes a bigger nose like the mug shots."

The "grainy" photo of Bay I posted (which is still much more clear than what you posted) is from a team photo and was taken from "far away". In either case, this makes absolutely no difference with respect to the any of the issues raised.

The subject of which you speak is called "photogrammetry" - I suggest you obtain "the Manual of Photogrammetry" (available from the ASPRS website) and spend some time studying - this is a science that does not lend itself to shooting from the hip. Another helpful though less rigorous book is called "Photo Fakery" by Dino Brugioni - founder of the CIA's photo analysis division - it has some nice basics on facial identification.

After 2 Library of Congress photo projects and numerous articles on this subject - I am at least right about one thing - this isn't Harry Bay.

The photos below were taken from virtually the same angle and have been properly resized based on eyeball spacing.

[Brian Campf]

Deleted

[DixieBaseball]

Mark - Thanks for your insight and I appreciate you taking the time to give your opinion.

Brian - Thanks as well...

I still would be interested in hearing form anyone that recognizes 309ft on either the left or right field wall from the 1907-15 era. I was hopeful that the number might stand out to someone familar with their team's favorite home field, etc.

Still many questions to research, such as what team, what field, what date, and what player, and is it Minor or Major leagues...

Thanks

[slidekellyslide]

If it weren't for that darn sweater!!! If it's minor league you may never find out...photos of minor league ballparks from that era seem even rarer than hen's teeth. I've only found three photos of Lincoln's Antelope park..only two show the outfield fence...and these photos came from a family photo album. I still have never found a single photo of Landis Field which Lincoln played in from 1922-1939 except for photos of the U of Nebraska team playing a game there that were published in the school yearbook.

Newspapers of the day just didn't dispatch photographers to minor league games and much of the photography from that era we have of minor leaguers come from the fans in the stands.

[tedzan]

Jeremy and Mark

Perhaps, the "pouting" expression on the post card photo and the apparent difference in ages of this photo and
Mark's two pictures of Bay are throwing us off.

However, the all important "ear test" indicates a very close resemblance of all 3 pictures being the same person.

Just adding my 2 cents.

TED Z

[DixieBaseball]

Ted - I saw the same thing as it appeared the RPPC Guy had some tobacco in both sides of his bottom lip or a pouting expression as you mentioned. I will say that the grainy photo of Bay Mark used for comparison and the clear nice angle shot could be some 7 years difference. This photo was shot just after 1900 time frame as it is the same photo depicted on Harry's 1904-06 Fan Craze card. I look at this photo and I imagine his eyes shifted to the side and up as depicted in the RPPC. Compare this photo with Mark's 2 photo's and I see differences... Especially if you put this one side by side with his 2 and I could argue that this photo of Bay shows the skinnier nose as opposed to the larger nose of Bay in the grainy picture. Maybe we can get all 4 side by side. Interesting.

[DixieBaseball]

I don't know about Facial recognition, U-Lines, straight lines, CIA facial probing, etc. - But I do think that expressions on faces can completely distort viewpoints. This thought reminds me of my identical Twin boys who over the last 6 years of their life have been told they look sometimes like me, sometimes like my wife, and then the same folks say the opposite months later. It all comes back to one thing. Expressions. We have at least dozens of expressions, depending on mood, what's in our mouth, angles, distance, etc. When I look at all 4 of these photo's, I see a different Bay. If I didn't know any better, I would say the 4th Bay photo looks like a ball or someone's fist hit him in the bridge of the nose. The Second Bay (Fan Craze) Photo looks more like the RPPC Nose than the 4th Bay photo. 2 more cents...

[bmarlowe1]

Ted

The ear test alone shows him to conclusively not be Harry Bay. These ears are very different in size relative to each person's head, as is clear from the sided by side photos. If you don't see it - try measuring it. Your looking for a ratio - relative to head size, or relative to the length of the nose from bridge to tip.

Also the ears are very different in size relative to each other. If these are photos of the same person, since they are taken from virtually the same angle - you can properly match them by first matching the space between the eyeballs (assuming neither is cross-eyed) - then everything should line up. As can be seen - nothing lines up.

They are also diffrerent in shape - especially at the lobe:

[bmarlowe1]

>>I will say that the grainy photo of Bay Mark used for comparison and the clear nice angle shot could be some 7 years difference. ..

The "grainy" photo was 1904, the clear mug-shot was 1903.

The points I referred to remain almost unchanged with age and are little affected by facial expression. Things like ear shape, jaw shape, and size ratios of facial characteristics do not change over time.

[DixieBaseball]

Mark - I think the photo is too inconclusive to compare to the RPPC for the ear. Reason being is the grainyness of it at the lobe. I don't see how you can really see the lobe that cleary on the Broad Nosed Grainy pic. What is strange is Bay's Fan Craze picture looks very little like the photo you keep using for comparison purposes. If all we are looking at is the ear lobe now, then it is way too inconlclusive due to grainy-ness, shadow, etc. You had mentioned the nose in earlier posts, but now that we can see Bay in his Fan Craze photo, I think we can throw the nose argument out as it appears Bay's nose was swollen on the bridge for some reason in that photo. These 2 Bay Photo's were take within a few years of each other :

[bmarlowe1]

The tip (lower end - wher the nostrils are) of Bay's nose is wide in my "grainy" photo (which is actually quite clear in detail) and the 1903 clear photo - in fact it is unusually wide. It is also wide in another Cle team photo I have - but you are in such a state of self-delusion I won't waste tome posting it. BTW it is also wide in the fan-craze photo - I have a very clear version of it in Slocum's book. Pehaps he suffered from some strange chronic end of nose swelling that cured itself when your photo was taken.

Also in the fan-craze photo - what happened to the big right earlobe - where did it go?

[DixieBaseball]

Mark- If you could resize the fan craze photo and put it next to your grainy photo, I think you will see 2 different size noses down the bridge.How do you explain that ? Not dilusioned here... I just can see that the Fan Craze photo nose and the Grainy photo nose look different. Size them and put them next to each other...

You asked where did the Big Ear lobe go ? The angle does not permit to see the entire ear lobe. Look at his other ear and you can see the big ear lobe on his left side in the Fan Craze photo...

[bmarlowe1]

>>>You asked where did the Big Ear lobe go ? The angle does not permit to see the entire ear lobe. Look at his other ear and you can see the big ear lobe on his left side in the Fan Craze photo

Yes exactly - he is looking absolutely straight at you and you can see his left lobe but not his right lobe - what does that tell you? It tells you Bay's ears are not symmetrical and that he has a very small lobe (if any) on his right side - just like the "grainy" photo (amazing, huh?) and completely unlike your photo.

This ear asymmetry (and the wide lower part of his nose) is also seen in another 1906 Bay photo below.

BTW - compare the left ears in my "grainy" photo and yours, with both heads turned slightly to their left by about the same amount - not only does your guy's left ear stick out a lot more - but the angle with respect to the head is different.

>>>I think you will see 2 different size noses down the bridge...

I don't see that, and I never said anything about the bridge of his nose. The bottom/tip of his nose is very wide. It's is easily seen in the 1903 photo and the 1904 photo. If you go to the Boston Pub Library and take a look at the 1902 Cle team headshot composite - you will see the fan craze photo without the darkroom softening applied to it for the card - and you will clearly see his nose is wide at the bottom. Your guy's nose is narrow at the bottom.
-----------

What concerns me here is not you and your photo and what your conclusion may be - I know you are honest and just mistaken. But, the types of arguments you make mirror those made by sellers in a number of fraudulent cases I have seen. This also illustrates why such sellers can always find a buyer.

[DixieBaseball]

What concerns me here is not you and your photo and what your conclusion may be - I know you are honest and just mistaken. But, the types of arguments you make mirror those made by sellers in a number of fraudulent cases I have seen. This also illustrates why such sellers can always find a buyer.

Mark - Your comments above remind of George Costanza from one of the Seinfeld episodes where he looks at Jerry and says "Jerry, just remember... it's not a lie if you believe it."

Mark - For the record, I have no conclusion on who this might be, but I do feel that it is inconclusive either way.

Thanks again for your insight, time, and expertise.

Here is another really grainy photo from the 08 Team Pic : The Noses look very similar in these 2 pics. When looking at 100 year old photo's and the player is at just the slightest angle, up or down, tilted left or right, it changes the look of the nose... With 7 Bay photo's, his nose takes on different looks depending on how is expression on his face is and the angle he is looking at you with...

[bmarlowe1]

>>>"Mark - Your comments above remind of George Costanza from one of the Seinfeld episodes where he looks at Jerry and says "Jerry, just remember... it's not a lie if you believe it."

What in the world are you talking about?

>>>"another really grainy photo..."

No - the one just above is the only really grainy photo so far posted. It is so blurred it is worthless.

>>>When looking at 100 year old photo's and the player is at just the slightest angle, up or down, tilted left or right, it changes the look of the nose... With 7 Bay photo's, his nose takes on different looks depending on how is expression on his face is and the angle he is looking at you with...

Total nonsense. Expression will not affect the appearance of the width of the end of one's nose (or how far your left ear sticks out) and it doesn't matter if the photo is 100 years old or one year old. Smiling (absent in all the photos under discussion) can move the nostrils up - but won't make them closer together.

Slight changes in angle will not affect the "look" of major characteristics; large differences in angle may make them harder to see or interpret, especially without a lot of experience. That's why I posted a clear photo of Bay (for which the "grains" were far smaller than the features - nothing is obscured) that was at virtually the same angle as yours. Your guy's nose looks narrow at the tip because it is.

So - find me a clear frontal view photo of Babe Ruth, or Jackie Robinson (you have thousands from which to choose) in which a "slight" angle of the head makes the end of the nose look narrow. You won't find one, nor will you ever find one of Bay.

[bmarlowe1]

I was feeling lazy - I should have done this at the start, but I figured it would be sufficiently obvious that these were not the same person. I don't know if Jeremy will understand this, but most readers will.

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/bmarlowe1/HarryBay.png

[DixieBaseball]

Mark - That is interesting science...

Can you do that with these 2 Bay photo's ? When I use your line mechanism, I can't get these 2 Bay Pictures to measure up to each other from Hat line to chin line. It seems the Bay Photo you keep using looks the least like any of the other Bay photo's.

Thanks,

J

[bmarlowe1]

>>> It seems the Bay Photo you keep using looks the least like any of the other Bay photo's.

I think he looks exactly like the other Bay photos - but that is not the point.

As I said 3 times, I use it because it is remarkably at the same angle as yours, turned about 15% to his left, camera slightly above. Of course this number is an estimate, but whatever it really is - it is very close in the two photos. So all features should at least come close to lining up, including the ears, but they are all way off.

>>> I can't get these 2 Bay Pictures to measure up to each other

<O:p</O:pI would hope not. Firstly, you need to rotate it a bit so the eyeballs are dead level. But regardless of that, it's a straight on shot - so you would have to make his eyeballs a bit farther apart than the photo I used to account for the head not being turned to the left (about 5% or 6% wider apart based on the cosine of the estimated turn angle). If you do that you can get things to line up pretty well.

No matter how you resize your photo - you won't get all the features to line up.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

[smokelessjoe]

Another Bay picture...

[bmarlowe1]

Shawn - that's the photo from which Jeremy extracted the very blurry image of Bay.

[smokelessjoe]

10/4

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks Mark - I really do appreciate your explanation and time on this... It is so odd how different Bay's nose looks in these photo's. (One on the left has a point to it and the one on the right looks swollen at the base) - I think this is why the RPPC seems to look very similar to images I have seen over time...

[bmarlowe1]

All the photos of Bay show a wide end of nose. The middle one above is very washed out - but you can still clearly see the nostrils and some of the underside of the nose.

The best view of this is posted here again:

[DixieBaseball]

The middle pic of Bay above looks more like the RPPC on the left than it does the Bay pic on the right. I don't agree so much with your statement that the middle pic is washed out. It appears very clear to me that he has a point to his nose in that pic. I think the RPPC on the left he has his chin down, thus making the nose point down just a smidge, while his eyes lift up and to the left. The middle pic of Bay has his chin/head slightly up thus showing the nostrils. The RPPC on the left shows nostrils and chin is slightly tucked... Still inconclusive to me either way. The more I look at some of Bay's photo's I see 2 different noses. Nose job plastic surgery was not too strong back 100 years ago, so I am going with a ball to the nose theory. Some Pics look like his nose is thin and pointy, others make it look like his nose is wide at the base and swollen on the bridge.

Take care,

J

[Potomac Yank]

That all this reminds me of Jimmy Durante?

The nose knows. :)